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Thread: Review of the Council of Truth.

  1. #41
    Oh, gee. Give them some credit. It takes talent to be able to bring forth such propaganda on a daily basis and then actually believe it. No, that takes a certain amount of talent. I will give Omni kudos for that.

    As for the rest, well...am I supposed to care about how OT thinks about the CoT and how it works? Nope. I don't give a fat rat's ass about how they think we should be operating. As I recall, the Clans are autonomous and were given that by WHOM? Come on now...you can do it. Say it. Get the Space Lawyer out here to help. And it is CLANS, not CLAN. Not one entity. Many of them.

    We don't conform to the OT way of working. Sorry. You want peace from the mess YOU MADE? Come deal with the CLANS. All of us. If you think that some are at cross purposes, you just might be right. Boy, you know, I bet none of your instructors back in Diplomacy 101 might have told you that this business might be a little confusing sometimes. You are all SO put off by the fact that we don't have 1 person sent out there to deal with your 1 person, like a nice game of chess, perhaps? Ross and Curly Neal can do it, but I think things are a bit more sticky here in Clan Land. Deal with it. Get out your books, and start writing things down. Maybe it's going to be more difficult to make peace with a lot of tribes (which is what the Clans are in a nutshell). What makes your form of association any better than ours? Nothing, that's what.

    So just can it with the CoT criticism. We don't care if you don't like how we in the Clans are organized. We will organize as we see fit to organize. When the CoT thinks Omni is actually INTERESTED in peace, then perhaps the initial consultations can begin for the start of bilateral negotiations in a neutral territory. Until then...feh. We care what you think...not.
    -----------------------------------
    The few, the proud...the Traders.
    -----------------------------------

    Maartens - 220 Mogul and former gadfly of Rimor. Now I'm just a major n00b.

    In defeat, malice. In victory, revenge!

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Aerinyi
    Yes, our refusal to talk to just any old self-serving yahoo definitely does mark us all as terrorists and militants.
    That’s fine. We only wanted to lay the groundwork for future talks, but as the Tir Treaty has taught us, it’s difficult for two groups to have a discussion when one is not available. I’m sure you’ll be happy with allowing Speaker Galahad to represent all your interests, should cease fire talks ever begin again, since I’m sure you’ll understand that the company might not want to talk to some staff yahoos.

    Have you gotten your speaker to even attend a meeting yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aerinyi
    They'll talk about how peaceful and benign they are to your face, while their friends are off mounting attacks on your notum fields behind your back. You can say what you want about the militant clans, god knows I've said quite a bit about them. But they'll let you know where you stand with them up front.
    In the absence of talks, both sides will try to improve their positions so that they can enter any negotiations in a position of strength. Do you rail against the militants every time a Omni-Tek mining site falls?
    Marisha Durousseau, War Dominatrix of The Honored Maidens

    Resources exist to be consumed. And consumed they will be, if not by this generation then by some future. By what right does this forgotten future seek to deny us our birthright?--CEO Nwabudike Morgan, "The Ethics of Greed"

    Read Marisha's Journal, and see what she's doing

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Crime
    We don't conform to the OT way of working. Sorry. You want peace from the mess YOU MADE? Come deal with the CLANS. All of us. If you think that some are at cross purposes, you just might be right. Boy, you know, I bet none of your instructors back in Diplomacy 101 might have told you that this business might be a little confusing sometimes. You are all SO put off by the fact that we don't have 1 person sent out there to deal with your 1 person, like a nice game of chess, perhaps? Ross and Curly Neal can do it, but I think things are a bit more sticky here in Clan Land. Deal with it. Get out your books, and start writing things down. Maybe it's going to be more difficult to make peace with a lot of tribes (which is what the Clans are in a nutshell). What makes your form of association any better than ours? Nothing, that's what.
    So, would you have any problem with Omni-Tek conforming to the clans way of doing business, and forcing each individual clan to deal with each individual Department, and allow each individual group to forge a cease fire with each other?

    Is our request for the clans to form a governmental body to negotiate with an unreasonable request? No. Is having one body to represent you better than the clan system? I believe so. It’s a simple utilitarian argument: Having one body to negotiate with is much simpler, quicker and more effective than individual negotiations. Ask the Unionists (if they actually are trade unionists and not just taking the name).
    Last edited by Marisha; Aug 23rd, 2004 at 17:54:12.
    Marisha Durousseau, War Dominatrix of The Honored Maidens

    Resources exist to be consumed. And consumed they will be, if not by this generation then by some future. By what right does this forgotten future seek to deny us our birthright?--CEO Nwabudike Morgan, "The Ethics of Greed"

    Read Marisha's Journal, and see what she's doing

  4. #44
    I think what you are failing to realize, Marisha is that the speaker is merely a figure head. Someone there to say, "you've got three minutes to make your point." ...a living timer if you will. Sure, there are other duties but they're menial at best and give the speaker no power. Some of us learned from that mistake with Radiman.

    See, no legacy clan rules anyone. We're trying to work together and while I have my personal views towards the knights (Please, Sir Tristam...go collect your dead knights. You cannot move ten feet without tripping over a dead knight in Avalon), it does not bother me that he isn't there. We're more than capable of holding our own meetings.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Astera
    I think what you are failing to realize, Marisha is that the speaker is merely a figure head.
    So, hypothetically speaking, should an appropriately high-ranking individual come forward to negotiate with the clans, whom should they speak to? If the answer is each individual clan, you should really re-examine the offer that Savoy made to establish a framework for discussion, because that would really save a lot of time and effort.
    Marisha Durousseau, War Dominatrix of The Honored Maidens

    Resources exist to be consumed. And consumed they will be, if not by this generation then by some future. By what right does this forgotten future seek to deny us our birthright?--CEO Nwabudike Morgan, "The Ethics of Greed"

    Read Marisha's Journal, and see what she's doing

  6. #46
    Galahad is not the speaker of the council. How are we to even take your commentary seriously when you can't be bothered to find out who our leaders actually are and are not?
    Delia "Aerinyi" Jett
    General of Whisper's Edge
    Atlantean

  7. #47
    But, sorry, we of Clan aren't going to do that. Rule by fiat is not possible amongst us, as our ideals, goals and raison d'etres are not going to come into a cohesive pattern. Clan is an ideal, not a structure. We agree to assemble for specific things, and the other things are left to each to decide how to do and what to do and how to do it and where to do it. Think of the Old Earth United States system of government for a nice corollary. The things not agreed upon as mutual are decided by each individual clan how to approach it. Since our form of assembly is not yours, there is a disconnect. How to solve it? Simple.

    Your organization is geared for singular communication, where ours is of a cellular nature. Therefore, the singular is the most mobile, and can react more rapidly for outreach to all outlying branches of the system (I hate cybernetics). The way *I* would do it, were I Omni, is to meet with each Clan faction in public and under supervision by neutral parties in neutral places. Once each negotiation was completed, the total sum of the negotiations would be compiled, redundancies removed and the remaining issues dealt with on a faction by faction basis. It is a bit more difficult on the OT side, but hey...you all love this stuff, right? And once you create an overall tapestry of the other sides common goals, you can make frameworks from there, and then see if more cannot be drug out in the interest of mutual benefit. Certainly we're not all thick-skulled maniacs. A lot of us can actually THINK and make decisions for ourselves. And I can dress myself, too! And no negotiations would ever be done in secret, and any PROVED breaches of said terms of negotiation would be met by the appropriate punishment by OT and the other Clans, perhaps. Depends on the severity of the breach of protocol. But in the end, these things are possible.

    We just don't believe that OT wants peace. Perhaps some of you might, but last I checked it, Phil Boy was still the Emporer. And he isn't talking at all about peace. Nor is he talking about any sort of REAL diplomatic envoys meeting with Clan CoT leaders and the other outlying Clan orgs that do not affiliate with that august organization. What he is rumored to have said was something to do with OT making a massive land grab. But maybe not, since the same journalistic source now says he never said it. Which one is correct? Where is Old Scratch anyway? Perhaps when he comes out of his coven and stops with the bubble, toil and trouble and addresses everyone here so that we all know he's actually still kicking somewhere, and makes some sort of coherent statement about peace, then I might concern myself.

    But not likely, and I'm not holding my breath.
    -----------------------------------
    The few, the proud...the Traders.
    -----------------------------------

    Maartens - 220 Mogul and former gadfly of Rimor. Now I'm just a major n00b.

    In defeat, malice. In victory, revenge!

  8. #48
    Excuses excuses. Those of us that truly care for the future of Rubi-Ka will never stop working for a stable future for all regardless. To date the only Clan line is to eradicate everyone that isn't a Clanner. Omni-Tek still has a lease on Rubi-Ka from the ICC for at least another 50 years. No amount of Clan attacks and violence will change that.

    I fail to see the reason for any side to resort to armed conflict.
    Charles 'Kithrak' Houston - Equipment
    Administrator, Omni-Admin
    Bringing the politics of Rubi-Ka to life!

    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster....when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..." -Friedrich Nietzsche-

    "By denying support to the possibility of peace, the Council of Truth is guranteeing an outcome of war."-Administrator Houston-

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Crime
    Clan is an ideal, not a structure.
    Is that so? Care to explain to me what this ideal is?

    Savoy
    Dabblez - Rubi-Ka Universal Robots (RUR)
    We put the Art into Artificial Intelligence!

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Savoy
    Is that so? Care to explain to me what this ideal is?

    Savoy
    All my droid have been able to compile for the Clan ideal based on the Clanner's actions and replies is.....

    Kill Omni, kill Omni, kill kill kill, kill Neutral, kill Omni, kill Neutral, kill kill kill...

    That's when I manually rebooted my droid. The good news is that after the reboot the droid informed me that the sequence will eventually stop halfway to infinity.
    Charles 'Kithrak' Houston - Equipment
    Administrator, Omni-Admin
    Bringing the politics of Rubi-Ka to life!

    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster....when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..." -Friedrich Nietzsche-

    "By denying support to the possibility of peace, the Council of Truth is guranteeing an outcome of war."-Administrator Houston-

  11. #51
    I, in fact, quite clearly described what I think the Clan ideal is, which is a free society in which all may participate in the direction of the government. Certainly OT opposes that at it's very core, as a corporation cannot function that way and be profitable. But please...do better than "care to define that". It's so banal. You don't even try to make an argument against anything I say. You just say..."no, care to explain why I just said no?" and you leave it at that. Hmmmm, I'm afraid I won't do your homework for you. If you want to refute my argument, do you own damn legwork.

    As for KILL OMNI, KILL NEUTRAL, KILL OMNI, KILL NEUTRAL, the only people saying that are:

    1. The Sentinels, except they are only saying it, they aren't actually doing it
    2. The Clans that support the Sentinels, again, they are only saying it and not actually gunning down innocent victims in the streets of your cities
    3. The Dust Brigade, seeing as how they say KILL CLAN TOO
    4. Omni organizations that kill Neutrals for their towers do say KILL NEUTRAL
    5. Same can be said for the reverse argument when Omni attacks a Neutral tower and neutral responds in kind, so they say KILL OMNI
    6. Clan orgs that do the same as ex 4 and Neutrals response to Clan as in ex 5

    Wow, looks like we have a nice long list of things that fit that overly general (and might I add completely infantile) response from the "administrator". How many of those can we say are actively doing what you say? All of the above except for 1, which is the ONE CLAN ORGANIZATION THAT OT POINTS TO AS BEING THE REASON WE HAVE NO PEACE. Talk about being 100% WRONG. Seeing as how you aren't completely stupid, let me give you a parable to help you get this one down in one swallow. Ye should judge a tree not by the bark it wears, but by the fruit it bears. Live it, learn it, know it, love it.

    Your arguments have so little merit, I don't even know why I bother answering you back, but it's somehow exhilaratiing to shoot fish in a barrel, which is what it is like arguing with you. It's a nice diversion from having to do something difficult or brain-teasing. It's something I can do in my off-hours when I'm bored, and I don't actually have to think hard to completely trounce your pithy, pedantic little personal flames.
    -----------------------------------
    The few, the proud...the Traders.
    -----------------------------------

    Maartens - 220 Mogul and former gadfly of Rimor. Now I'm just a major n00b.

    In defeat, malice. In victory, revenge!

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithrak
    All my droid have been able to compile for the Clan ideal based on the Clanner's actions and replies is.....

    Kill Omni, kill Omni, kill kill kill, kill Neutral, kill Omni, kill Neutral, kill kill kill...

    That's when I manually rebooted my droid. The good news is that after the reboot the droid informed me that the sequence will eventually stop halfway to infinity.
    If you's asked we could told you not to buy any of the RuR series....they lost our president's bot after all (yes I bet he isn't anymore cookie obsesed)...another indication is that OT gotten rid of it by camuflaging it as neutral org.

    If it isn't one of RuR series, you can apply there as programer.....you have the knack for it...not working right? Reboot!
    "War may be Hell....but it's good for business!"
    -The Association for Merchants,Manufacturers, and Morticians

    [Kintaii]: Dude, I *am* weird
    [Kintaii]: I came to accept this many years ago and am much happier for it. XD
    [Kintaii]: Besides - I work on *AO*. That right there is proof of my oddness.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Aerinyi
    Galahad is not the speaker of the council.
    I do realize that Tristam is the de-facto speaker, given that Galahad is in the Shadowlands, engaging in his most recent fantasy role-playing endeavor he’s undertaking. However, I also hear that Tristam is Galahad’s ventriloquist dummy.

    Again, why should we speak to the underling when we can speak to the controller? If the clans feel that they are entitled to speak only to the highest representative, the corporation should be able to make the same demands.
    Marisha Durousseau, War Dominatrix of The Honored Maidens

    Resources exist to be consumed. And consumed they will be, if not by this generation then by some future. By what right does this forgotten future seek to deny us our birthright?--CEO Nwabudike Morgan, "The Ethics of Greed"

    Read Marisha's Journal, and see what she's doing

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Crime
    Think of the Old Earth United States system of government for a nice corollary. The things not agreed upon as mutual are decided by each individual clan how to approach it.
    Nice example. I may not be up on governments made by monkeys living in caves thirty millennia ago, but these monkeys seem to have had one thing the clans don’t, namely a government over them. The clans don’t, or at least the CoT claims not to be a clan government. I don’t see how this applies.

    Or, are you suggesting that there is a body of mutually agreed decisions made by the clans? I know you mentioned that all agree in a free society in which all may participate in the direction of that government, but beyond that, are there any others? Are they published anywhere, and do all clanners know them? Since this topic of discussion is about the CoT, are all clanners able to participate in their government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Crime
    The way *I* would do it, were I Omni, is to meet with each Clan faction in public and under supervision by neutral parties in neutral places. Once each negotiation was completed, the total sum of the negotiations would be compiled, redundancies removed and the remaining issues dealt with on a faction by faction basis. It is a bit more difficult on the OT side, but hey...you all love this stuff, right? And once you create an overall tapestry of the other sides common goals, you can make frameworks from there, and then see if more cannot be drug out in the interest of mutual benefit.
    Not all that dissimilar from what Savoy originally suggested. The CoT refused to meet with us. To bad we didn’t have political theorists like you serving on inside the CoT when the original offer was made, as we probably could of possibly went somewhere. Unfortunately, the CoT refused our suggestion of meeting locations, and never provided an alternate suggestion.
    Last edited by Marisha; Aug 24th, 2004 at 00:33:50.
    Marisha Durousseau, War Dominatrix of The Honored Maidens

    Resources exist to be consumed. And consumed they will be, if not by this generation then by some future. By what right does this forgotten future seek to deny us our birthright?--CEO Nwabudike Morgan, "The Ethics of Greed"

    Read Marisha's Journal, and see what she's doing

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Marisha
    IAgain, why should we speak to the underling when we can speak to the controller?
    Grasp the idea we don't have "controller". And as of happening of late neither does OT...or so it seems. You have nonexisting "controller" non issuing bulletins and of course not controling. Ohh....and that nonexisting controller seems to have some mysterius board over his head (won't speculate on existence of that body part) which makes him in turn underling.
    "War may be Hell....but it's good for business!"
    -The Association for Merchants,Manufacturers, and Morticians

    [Kintaii]: Dude, I *am* weird
    [Kintaii]: I came to accept this many years ago and am much happier for it. XD
    [Kintaii]: Besides - I work on *AO*. That right there is proof of my oddness.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Trgeorge
    Grasp the idea we don't have "controller".
    I do grasp it, actually. I just find it amusing that the speaker of the Council is referred to as little more than a biological clock, and members of the clans keep insisting that they have no central authority that represents their wishes in a discussion about whether or not the reformed Council of Truth is working or not.

    As for CEO Ross and the Board of Directors, just because they’re not holding our hands when we cross the street doesn’t mean they’re nonexistent. As for Tristam, I’m sure that if he did something that royally angered Galahad, I’m sure he’d rein his boy in as well.
    Marisha Durousseau, War Dominatrix of The Honored Maidens

    Resources exist to be consumed. And consumed they will be, if not by this generation then by some future. By what right does this forgotten future seek to deny us our birthright?--CEO Nwabudike Morgan, "The Ethics of Greed"

    Read Marisha's Journal, and see what she's doing

  17. #57
    Miss Marisha you call us terorists (betwen other names). If we'd have some sort of goverment, preferably some to your liking and with which you'd be willing to negotiate, we'd be contry/coorporation/etc..... Whole conflict would escalete to civil/coorporation war, and Omni-Tek would clearly be marked opressor. ICC leasy wouldn't hold any more, since they can't lease contry or can't give primacy to foreign cooporation. I'm sure OT wouldn't want to leave, but since it is still weaken due to Cooperation wars, it wouldn't risk starting new ones. Most clanners do want Omni-Tek to pack and go home in heat of conflict, but would probably settle for some controled OT activity ( no more messing with mutagenic substances, limited notum mining, upholding signed treaties and similar stuff), if that would save lifes and personal griefs. While CoT isn't goverment, it holds some authority as institution. On the other hand, while Ross is chief of OT tribe, he doesn't seem to hold any authority. Now tell me, who should talk to who?
    "War may be Hell....but it's good for business!"
    -The Association for Merchants,Manufacturers, and Morticians

    [Kintaii]: Dude, I *am* weird
    [Kintaii]: I came to accept this many years ago and am much happier for it. XD
    [Kintaii]: Besides - I work on *AO*. That right there is proof of my oddness.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Trgeorge
    Miss Marisha you call us terorists (betwen other names).
    I called the Dust Brigade terrorists. I understand that the vast majority of the clans do not consider them to be part of the clans. I don’t believe I’ve called any recognized clan terrorists either in this discussion. I didn’t even say, “Silverstone is a madman.” However, I'll forgive your personal attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trgeorge
    If we'd have some sort of goverment, preferably some to your liking and with which you'd be willing to negotiate, we'd be contry/coorporation/etc..... Whole conflict would escalete to civil/coorporation war, and Omni-Tek would clearly be marked opressor. ICC leasy wouldn't hold any more, since they can't lease contry or can't give primacy to foreign cooporation.
    Actually, we’ve been the leaseholder and aggressor against the clans after they had a government and land, and it hasn’t affected the lease yet. Granted, our lease did get reduced after the corporate wars, but that was part of the sweeping cross-corporate penalties.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trgeorge
    Most clanners do want Omni-Tek to pack and go home in heat of conflict, but would probably settle for some controled OT activity ( no more messing with mutagenic substances, limited notum mining, upholding signed treaties and similar stuff), if that would save lifes and personal griefs.
    Who’s going to enforce the clan side of these signed treaties? The CoT has said that they do not believe they have the right to enforce their will on non-member clans. They had quite the debate about it on their gridsite. In the final analysis, having a treaty that only one side upholds isn’t all that different from not having a treaty at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trgeorge
    On the other hand, while Ross is chief of OT tribe, he doesn't seem to hold any authority. Now tell me, who should talk to who?
    First, we are a corporation, not a tribe. Grasp that idea. As a corporation, CEO Ross is answerable to the Board of Directors. It is his job to ensure that the Rubi-Ka mining operation is run in accordance to the wishes of the Board of Directors. As for whom to talk to, I’d suggest a small group of vocal employees who offered to establish a framework for future discussions. Baring them, CEO Ross, if you can get your act together and show you represent the clans. Just keep in mind that whatever you propose will have to be acceptable to the Board back on Omni-Prime.
    Last edited by Marisha; Aug 24th, 2004 at 07:21:24.
    Marisha Durousseau, War Dominatrix of The Honored Maidens

    Resources exist to be consumed. And consumed they will be, if not by this generation then by some future. By what right does this forgotten future seek to deny us our birthright?--CEO Nwabudike Morgan, "The Ethics of Greed"

    Read Marisha's Journal, and see what she's doing

  19. #59
    An absence of several days has only now brought this petty piece of propaganda to my attention. Until now I thought that the journalists within Omni-Tek were trying to report news. Now this is not just only half of what really happened, but even the reported parts have been twisted beyond recognition. Or maybe I always misread it and OTPC does not mean Omni-Tek Press Corps but Omni-Tek Propaganda Crooks.

    Indeed, the CoT is not a government. Yet. It might become one, in time. You are free to decide if you wish to rather have someone to speak to or if you just prefer to continue the status quo. At least you get an idea what we are talking about, much unlike the leadership of Omni-Tek. You have to hope for the big leader to appear and make a speech whereupon you know what is expected from you, no questions asked. Indeed, the CoT is discussing even trivial things, but at least it is a discussion, not just a decision from above.

    But maybe the problem is entirely different. Maybe our own version of administration is so different from yours that you fail to understand it. Yes, maybe Clans and Omni-Tek are just so fundamentally different that there is no common ground.

    But maybe it's just all twisted propaganda - like this OTPC article.
    Corrine Daimoness Wright
    - Veteran of Apocalypse
    - General of the Mercury Dragons (ret.)
    - Member of the Grumpy Old Crat Bunch

    If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Marisha
    However, I'll forgive your personal attack.
    Most gracius of you. Please be so kind and remind me which part was personal attack.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marisha
    In the final analysis, having a treaty that only one side upholds isn’t all that different from not having a treaty at all.
    And it surprises you that CoT is reluctant even to admit to be ready for talks after Tir Account?
    "War may be Hell....but it's good for business!"
    -The Association for Merchants,Manufacturers, and Morticians

    [Kintaii]: Dude, I *am* weird
    [Kintaii]: I came to accept this many years ago and am much happier for it. XD
    [Kintaii]: Besides - I work on *AO*. That right there is proof of my oddness.

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