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Thread: Review of the Council of Truth.

  1. #121
    Your analogy would make sense if the Homo Sapiens and the Homo Solitus existed at the same time. They did not. Sapiens went extinct due to a combination of disease, radiation and extreme climate change. Solitus appeared after from them due to ecological selection that gave them greater resistance to the changes that caused the extinction of the Sapiens. It’s a simple matter of adapt, survive and reproduce, or die out as your ecological niche disappears. They did not, as you so eloquently put it, strap lasers to their heads.

    In the event that I ever discover you covered in green goo, I would love to discuss adaptive radiation with you.
    Marisha Durousseau, War Dominatrix of The Honored Maidens

    Resources exist to be consumed. And consumed they will be, if not by this generation then by some future. By what right does this forgotten future seek to deny us our birthright?--CEO Nwabudike Morgan, "The Ethics of Greed"

    Read Marisha's Journal, and see what she's doing

  2. #122
    Your analogy would make sense if the Homo Sapiens and the Homo Solitus existed at the same time. They did not. Sapiens went extinct due to a combination of disease, radiation and extreme climate change. Solitus appeared after from them due to ecological selection that gave them greater resistance to the changes that caused the extinction of the Sapiens. It’s a simple matter of adapt, survive and reproduce, or die out as your ecological niche disappears. They did not, as you so eloquently put it, strap lasers to their heads.
    As I see it, the reasons that Sapien became extinct was by physiological factors such as disease, radiation and temperature resistance, as you state. Please tell me how this equates to increased intelligence capability. It does not, and you merely speculate that this is the case. When I see a case study wherein it shows that the average Homo Solitus is more intelligent in every single case then your statement about being "superior" might hold water. It, unfortunately, does not. Clearly there are stupid people in both eras, and deviant smarty pants in both eras also. On the whole, I believe you will find that perhaps Homo Nanomage might fit that category, since we do have increased intellect as part of our genetic makeup, but we were created this way, and did not evolve into it. Which is to say, strapping a big laser beam to my forehead. Technology does not equate to evolution.

    No, saying that Homo Solitus or any other of our changed breeds is more "evolved" intellectually is a lie. If you believe that you are more intelligent than say, any person alive during the period that you dismiss, you are sadly mistaken. And it only takes one or two of the deviant smarty pants to create something as timeless and brilliant as the things I mention in my examples. Your arrogance is simply amazing.

    In the event that I ever discover you covered in green goo, I would love to discuss adaptive radiation with you.
    No, you would not, since what happens genetically to a creature exposed to adaptive radiation takes longer to affect the evolutionary cycle than I will be alive. It does not happen over night. And this would also require my passing genes onto some blind nanomage female, as I am uglier than most. Those genes, if passed on, would require more adaptive radiation to continue the evolutionary cycle. Or something that catalyzes the changes in my progeny's genetic makeup. I'm not worried about it, as the results will be long past my own lifespan. And the lifespan of my progeny as well.
    Last edited by Joshua Crime; Sep 26th, 2004 at 08:52:57.
    -----------------------------------
    The few, the proud...the Traders.
    -----------------------------------

    Maartens - 220 Mogul and former gadfly of Rimor. Now I'm just a major n00b.

    In defeat, malice. In victory, revenge!

  3. #123
    Or in legal terms, you are appealing to the "Mommy, but he started it!" clause.
    What a treasure! Mommy, the Omni soldiers are killing us again. Can we fight back? Are we allowed? Mother, may I? Indeed.

    At what exact point do you determine who struck the first blow?
    I'm going to pretend I didn't even read that.

    But perhaps what is more relevant is this; at one point does retaliation no longer serve the cause of self-defence but actually just fuels the fire and forces the otherside into further retaliation of its own?
    At the point when the original aggressor decides to stop. Simple enough. You punch me, I punch you. You are the ass. I just hit you back because you dared strike me. If you hit me again because I hit you in retaliation, then you are merely perpetuating the initial aggression, and I may strike you at will afterwards and try to kill you because I know that you will not stop your aggression against me. OT did this to the miners. The miners struck back. Instead of realizing what OT had done and attempted to make amends, they decided to send in troops to slaughter all that opposed them. To this DAY, there has not been a single response from OT saying that what they did was wrong and that they would fix it. Until such time, anything that Clan does to you, you deserve. It's not ancient history, because the single event that started the whole war has not been addressed. When you fight a disease, do you merely treat the symptoms? Or do you look for the root cause and remove it? The smart doctors do the latter, but OT is not a very smart doctor.

    And this really goes for either side. Omni view their atacks on Clanners are a response to Clan attacks on Omni peronnel and property, Clanners view their attacks on Omni as justified by Omni raids on them. How is that for circular logic?
    OT of this generation that have no sense of institutional memory might think that way, but guess what? You consciously put on a uniform that has the union label on it, and guess what else? Some other people are at war with people that wear that label. We hate your shirts. We really do. Nothing circular about my logic whatsoever. When the underlying factors that started the war are addressed, then the circle can be broken. Until then, saddle up and lock and load.

    If the only reason we are fighting each other is because 'the other guy is fighting us' then we truely do deserve to be wiped out by alien invaders.
    Hasn't stopped OT and Clanners alike from attacking each others Notum Mining facilities, now has it? I think not. I happen to agree with you, but so far we aren't seeing much of that kind of behavior on either side of the fence. Perhaps when we create an unofficial truce against such actions, then we might see more peace.
    -----------------------------------
    The few, the proud...the Traders.
    -----------------------------------

    Maartens - 220 Mogul and former gadfly of Rimor. Now I'm just a major n00b.

    In defeat, malice. In victory, revenge!

  4. #124
    "You punch me, I punch you. You are the ass. I just hit you back because you dared strike me. If you hit me again because I hit you in retaliation, then you are merely perpetuating the initial aggression, and I may strike you at will afterwards and try to kill you because I know that you will not stop your aggression against me. OT did this to the miners. The miners struck back. Instead of realizing what OT had done and attempted to make amends, they decided to send in troops to slaughter all that opposed them. To this DAY, there has not been a single response from OT saying that what they did was wrong and that they would fix it. Until such time, anything that Clan does to you, you deserve."

    What you conveniently omit to mention in that tirade is:

    the original conflict that began with unfortunate handling of the Omni-Tek workers' strike was by all means ended in 29223 when both sides signed Clans Rights Treaty, and the former OT employees were given land lease in the northern parts of terraformed territory where they could --and did-- develop in peace. It wasn't until 29374, 151 years later when clan-affiliated terrorists decided to blow up four Omni-Tek mines killing both civillian miners and the security forces alike, and started conflict lasting until this day.

    For someone so eager to strike righteous blows, maybe you should pause for a moment, get off your high horse, and just for a change turn a cheek and taste your own medicine.

    I realize your weak defense of that particular turn of events is "oh, but Omni-Tek didn't mean it when they're making these amends, so it didn't count and we still could hold a grudge". However, i'd like you to follow the standards you demand from others, and actually produce some official proof that makes such statement anything but your wishful thinking. And the fact Omni-Tek did honour the lease for all these years until your side decided to break it ain't going to make that any easier for you, either -- because ironically enough, despite your feeble justification how "I may strike you at will afterwards and try to kill you because I know that you will not stop your aggression against me" ... OT did stop. Only showing how little you in fact "know".


    "OT of this generation that have no sense of institutional memory might think that way, but guess what? You consciously put on a uniform that has the union label on it, and guess what else? Some other people are at war with people that wear that label. We hate your shirts. We really do. Nothing circular about my logic whatsoever."

    How does someone know you 'hate their shirt' when for 150 years you continue telling them that everything is fine, you build your new cities, you keep living next to one another and then six generations later you blow rocks down on their heads? Were they just fools for trusting your word, for thinking you actually meant what you'd been saying? And what possible reasoning can you offer to show your word can be trusted now, and that another attempt to make peace should be made... when you already broke both before?

    Doesn't seem Omni-Tek is the only side who's lacking 'institutional memory' here... if anything, it seems like some people who had no part in original events, and who claimed the freedom to live by one's own rules be their highest and most prized goal... couldn't stand someone else had the same as well, in their own way and without getting on your turf.

  5. #125
    the original conflict that began with unfortunate handling of the Omni-Tek workers' strike was by all means ended in 29223 when both sides signed Clans Rights Treaty, and the former OT employees were given land lease in the northern parts of terraformed territory where they could --and did-- develop in peace. It wasn't until 29374, 151 years later when clan-affiliated terrorists decided to blow up four Omni-Tek mines killing both civillian miners and the security forces alike, and started conflict lasting until this day.
    We're making an awful lot of assumptions here, aren't we, Jo? You're assuming that OT did nothing to the Clan during that time, or vice versa. You're likely assuming wrong, but the official history line does not give any more details between the two dates. I'm willing to bet that the history is written with more an OT frame of reference than a Clan frame of reference. I can be real conspiracy theory minded and say there is a reason for the things that occured in between not being listed and purposely obscured. After all, since I can read too, OT has had, continues to have, and will have a penchant for shutting up press reports that it doesn't like. Are we witnessing more of the same here? Mmmmmmmmmm, could be.

    Saying that "OT left the Clans in peace for 151 years" is not very likely, but there is no evidence to state what occured during this time. But hey, I can make assumptions too, and say that OT was a complete monster during these time frames and say that OT never left the Clans alone and the "terrorists" were engaging in punitive actions. Neither of us know the answer, do we? No, we do not. And making assumptions here based upon the historical details we have been given is not very judicious. Perhaps if some scriber or historian can put together the pieces of what happened here, then perhaps we can make some assumptions, but not until then.

    For someone so eager to strike righteous blows, maybe you should pause for a moment, get off your high horse, and just for a change turn a cheek and taste your own medicine.

    I realize your weak defense of that particular turn of events is "oh, but Omni-Tek didn't mean it when they're making these amends, so it didn't count and we still could hold a grudge". However, i'd like you to follow the standards you demand from others, and actually produce some official proof that makes such statement anything but your wishful thinking. And the fact Omni-Tek did honour the lease for all these years until your side decided to break it ain't going to make that any easier for you, either -- because ironically enough, despite your feeble justification how "I may strike you at will afterwards and try to kill you because I know that you will not stop your aggression against me" ... OT did stop. Only showing how little you in fact "know".
    You are of course full of it, and it's very amusing to see you try to beat me up for being injudicious and here you go doing it yourself. We have already established that there is no historical basis for the reasons the secondary strikes made by the Clanners were made. And you are going to stand here and say that OT stopped completely. You don't know that, do you? You don't know jack ****. So, I will stand back in mute awe for just a brief moment. The pot has called the kettle black. Film at 11.

    How does someone know you 'hate their shirt' when for 150 years you continue telling them that everything is fine, you build your new cities, you keep living next to one another and then six generations later you blow rocks down on their heads? Were they just fools for trusting your word, for thinking you actually meant what you'd been saying? And what possible reasoning can you offer to show your word can be trusted now, and that another attempt to make peace should be made... when you already broke both before?

    Doesn't seem Omni-Tek is the only side who's lacking 'institutional memory' here... if anything, it seems like some people who had no part in original events, and who claimed the freedom to live by one's own rules be their highest and most prized goal... couldn't stand someone else had the same as well, in their own way and without getting on your turf.
    See the above rebuttal. Yadda yadda yadda, we can make inferences to what was going on here, and it proves nothing. OT does lack institutional memory, because what happened in the interim just shows that OT will do, say and act like it wants to when confronted with something that it does not like. We can sit here and debate about what happened in between timelines in an "Official History Of The Conflict", but I know as a very voracious reader of ancient histories myself, that things that were either insignificant or embarrassing to the author's points of view are purposely left out to bolster their arguments. Furthermore, details are important to judge what the overall dynamics of the times were, and yet you really have none.

    Shall we discuss what OT had done to the first Council Of Truth? By your standards, "terrorists" struck at some notum facilities. Since you all seem to love calling the Dust Brigade "Clan" (meaning that which does not knuckle under to you, did you call Neutrals back then that you disagreed with Clan as well? I bet you did), it's more likely that these the people were responsible for the strikes, and then OT goes back and says that the Clans were responsible. Then OT says "Give us those who were responsible, or we will march into Clan territory with no proof ourselves, destroy the governing council and incarcerate them illegally". And yes, it WAS illegal, because you removed the governing council without a trial. Lock them up and shut them up. Probably killed them too. Sounds like the same OT to me.

    Or how about the fact that the OT scumsucking stormtroopers gave the council 3 days to investigate the destruction of 4 notum facilities before moving in and illegally moving in and terminating the Clan council, and then launching massive strikes against Clan territory, killing tens of thousands.

    Oh, the irony! You have the gall to preach at me! And your arguments are pedantic. You lose.

    So, you too shall become an OT Cheerleader? Rah Rah Sis Boom Bah GOOOOO PHILLIP! Good for you. Stand in line with the other 500. You all get to talk to me, since the CoT doesn't seem to want to speak much here and put out the official Clan points of view. It apparently falls to me, Maartens the Clan Gadly, to be the spokesman and defender of Clan against your yellow journalists. But that's OK, I love it. That makes it about 10 against 1 at the moment. Typical OT odds. And most of the time I still win the arguments. How about that.
    -----------------------------------
    The few, the proud...the Traders.
    -----------------------------------

    Maartens - 220 Mogul and former gadfly of Rimor. Now I'm just a major n00b.

    In defeat, malice. In victory, revenge!

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Crime
    As I see it, the reasons that Sapien became extinct was by physiological factors such as disease, radiation and temperature resistance, as you state. Please tell me how this equates to increased intelligence capability.
    I believe you misunderstand my arguments. I believe that Homo Solitus is more advanced genetically due to the resistances that that species has to the environmental changes that lead to the extinction of the Homo Sapiens. This process of genetic variation followed by natural selection where the Homo Solitus took over the vacated Homo Sapiens niche in the food chain indicates evolution at work.

    My belief that the Homo Solitus is more advanced than the Homo Sapiens is not based on evolutionary theory. Homo Solitus has developed technological marvels that would seem as magic to Homo Sapiens, as well as the colonization of known space. I believe you misinterpret my scorn for the accomplishments of the Homo Sapiens (beyond the aforementioned three contributions they made to our technological and social base) as being related to the recognition I give to Homo Solitus’ genetic advantages over the Homo Sapiens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Crime
    No, you would not, since what happens genetically to a creature exposed to adaptive radiation takes longer to affect the evolutionary cycle than I will be alive.
    Your discussion of adaptive radiation and your inability to get a date non-withstanding, I only said that if I should happen to meet you covered in green goo, I would love to discuss science with you. Please don’t presume to tell me what I desire to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Crime
    Saying that "OT left the Clans in peace for 151 years" is not very likely, but there is no evidence to state what occured during this time.
    Alternatly, it is just as likely to assume that the Clans didn’t leave Omni-Tek in peace and they were the monsters. The historical record records no major conflict between the two parties until the clan attacks on OT mining facilities. While it is reasonable to assume that there was minor border issues and trade disputes, these were minor and did not lead to a massive upset in the state of affairs. Otherwise, one would believe it should have been recorded.

    You’re a fan of history, Mr. Crime. Surely you can think of a nation that the cavemen of the United States had no recorded armed conflict with for a century and a half. Were the United States oppressing them and covering their actions, or were the events that happened so minor that they faded into the distant past?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Crime
    Or how about the fact that the OT scumsucking stormtroopers gave the council [i]3 days to investigate the destruction of 4 notum facilities
    Incorrect. Three days after the bombings we gave the Council a demand with a one week time limit to hand over the terrorists. When the deadline ended, the Council claimed that they could not control the clans. They had more than three days. As a historian, I’m surprised you made that error, but then dates are not all that important, just order of events, correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Crime
    It apparently falls to me, Maartens the Clan Gadly, to be the spokesman and defender of Clan against your yellow journalists.
    It’s not our fault that your Council feels no need to contribute to your discussions of biology and caveman history, but I’m sure your words will spur them to action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Crime
    And most of the time I still win the arguments.
    I’m still waiting to see how you support your argument that the music was better in the past.
    Marisha Durousseau, War Dominatrix of The Honored Maidens

    Resources exist to be consumed. And consumed they will be, if not by this generation then by some future. By what right does this forgotten future seek to deny us our birthright?--CEO Nwabudike Morgan, "The Ethics of Greed"

    Read Marisha's Journal, and see what she's doing

  7. #127
    I believe you misunderstand my arguments. I believe that Homo Solitus is more advanced genetically due to the resistances that that species has to the environmental changes that lead to the extinction of the Homo Sapiens. This process of genetic variation followed by natural selection where the Homo Solitus took over the vacated Homo Sapiens niche in the food chain indicates evolution at work.

    My belief that the Homo Solitus is more advanced than the Homo Sapiens is not based on evolutionary theory. Homo Solitus has developed technological marvels that would seem as magic to Homo Sapiens, as well as the colonization of known space. I believe you misinterpret my scorn for the accomplishments of the Homo Sapiens (beyond the aforementioned three contributions they made to our technological and social base) as being related to the recognition I give to Homo Solitus’ genetic advantages over the Homo Sapiens.
    On the contrary, I completely got your argument. Your argument was that the Homo Sapien accomplishments were nothing to someone such as yourself, since they are "cavemen" and "bottom feeders". This is clearly not the case. Your belief was that Solitus is more evolved (no denying that) and that gave you the right to spank all over their accomplishments as being beneath you. Their intellectual achievements were what I was referring to, not the hardiness of their constitutions. So, you are changing your argument now. Which is fine. At least you are correct now.

    Your discussion of adaptive radiation and your inability to get a date non-withstanding, I only said that if I should happen to meet you covered in green goo, I would love to discuss science with you. Please don’t presume to tell me what I desire to do.
    My inability to get a "date" is not up for discussion, it's merely rhetorical since the vast majority of nanomages are not what you would consider "handsome" or "beautiful" in the classical (read: solitus as your basis) sense. And since I get covered in green goo a lot, that could potentially happen, but I wouldn't count on it. Science is fun conversation, I agree. But I don't believe I presumed to tell you what you desire to do. I just find it highly unlikely, and our views on the influence of adaptive radiation or any other adaptive mutation agents differ.

    Alternatly, it is just as likely to assume that the Clans didn’t leave Omni-Tek in peace and they were the monsters. The historical record records no major conflict between the two parties until the clan attacks on OT mining facilities. While it is reasonable to assume that there was minor border issues and trade disputes, these were minor and did not lead to a massive upset in the state of affairs. Otherwise, one would believe it should have been recorded.

    You’re a fan of history, Mr. Crime. Surely you can think of a nation that the cavemen of the United States had no recorded armed conflict with for a century and a half. Were the United States oppressing them and covering their actions, or were the events that happened so minor that they faded into the distant past?
    No question about any of this. But, the argument was that the Clans were doing something in the interim. That is possible, and it's also possible that Omni was doing a lot of bad things too. Probably both statements are correct, but my interlocutor was making assumptions and turning them into facts, and that is not possible, so I dinged her for it.

    Incorrect. Three days after the bombings we gave the Council a demand with a one week time limit to hand over the terrorists. When the deadline ended, the Council claimed that they could not control the clans. They had more than three days. As a historian, I’m surprised you made that error, but then dates are not all that important, just order of events, correct?
    Yep, you got me. I read the dates and the events wrong by one item. Happens, and I fully admit my mistake. However, my premise still stands. One week is no time to actually be able to conduct full invesigations of crimes of this magnitude. My allegation that OT used it as an excuse to rid itself of the Clan hierarchy also stands. They gave them no chance. OT's entry into Clan territory was illegal and so were the arrests. If perhaps they would have given a reasonable amount of time to conduct an investigation, then perhaps things might be different, but then again, I do not bank on OT being fair. I bank on them being ruthless, evil and callous and this event (like so many others) bears this out.

    I’m still waiting to see how you support your argument that the music was better in the past.
    Well, as a trained musician, I can tell you that the skill and dedication required to be a classical musician far exceeds that of the electronic drivel that purports itself to be "music" in this age. Certainly matters of taste in art is an opinion, but I speak from a knowledgable position on the aesthetics of the art form. Wagner, Beethoven, Handel, Bach, Brahms, Lizst, Copeland, ad infinitum composed far superior musical compositions than anything I've heard in my lifetime that calls itself "modern". And acoustic musics are the greatest since they don't include all that screeching drek I hear coming from the clubs around here. Perhaps Holst's "The Planets" was a bit bombastic, but it was meant to be. Give me one piece of modern music that even compares to the Moonlight Sonata and I'll buy you a beer.
    -----------------------------------
    The few, the proud...the Traders.
    -----------------------------------

    Maartens - 220 Mogul and former gadfly of Rimor. Now I'm just a major n00b.

    In defeat, malice. In victory, revenge!

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Crime
    So, you are changing your argument now. Which is fine. At least you are correct now.
    When did I change my argument? My most recent statement was little more than a slightly verbose version of my original argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Crime
    But I don't believe I presumed to tell you what you desire to do. I just find it highly unlikely, and our views on the influence of adaptive radiation or any other adaptive mutation agents differ.
    I said I would like to discuss scientific theories with you, you said “No, you would not.” I fail to see how you are not telling me what I desire to do. Perhaps this was just a typo, yes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Crime
    Probably both statements are correct, but my interlocutor was making assumptions and turning them into facts, and that is not possible, so I dinged her for it.
    I’m curious as to how you would define peace, then. A century and a half of city building and self-rule where no major conflicts or issues are recorded sounds pretty peaceful to me. You must have a higher standard, and I’m curious as to what peace means to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Crime
    I do not bank on OT being fair. I bank on them being ruthless, evil and callous and this event (like so many others) bears this out.
    You should have no problem with me banking on the clans being ungrateful terrorists based on the aforementioned bombings, correct?
    Marisha Durousseau, War Dominatrix of The Honored Maidens

    Resources exist to be consumed. And consumed they will be, if not by this generation then by some future. By what right does this forgotten future seek to deny us our birthright?--CEO Nwabudike Morgan, "The Ethics of Greed"

    Read Marisha's Journal, and see what she's doing

  9. #129
    When did I change my argument? My most recent statement was little more than a slightly verbose version of my original argument.
    But you did. Your original bashing of my pointing to old Earth political and philosophical tenets were due to the fact that you believed that the "cavemen" were beneath your notice as unevolved beings. You were in effect stating that their intelligence was far inferior to your own by dismissing them so outright. After all, what does your ability to resist radiation and other elemental forces have to do with your intellect? None. Then you changed your tune to state that the reason they were less evolved was because of physiological factors. Which is correct. And I stated as much.

    I said I would like to discuss scientific theories with you, you said “No, you would not.” I fail to see how you are not telling me what I desire to do. Perhaps this was just a typo, yes?
    Sigh. What a lawyer. The difference in the statements is a problem with standard language, where the same words can mean two different things. By saying "No, you would not", I could have meant that I'm telling you that you would not like to discuss things with me as an action. Which is not what I meant at all. What I meant is that you would not not enjoy it. Due to the fact that I do not assign myself to your theories, you would not find it amusing because I would likely disagree with everything you said. Of course, I could be mistaken there as well. Perhaps you are a masochist and being contrarian constantly is something you find enjoyable. I do not.

    I’m curious as to how you would define peace, then. A century and a half of city building and self-rule where no major conflicts or issues are recorded sounds pretty peaceful to me. You must have a higher standard, and I’m curious as to what peace means to you.
    Peace is the absence of conflict. Since it means the same in my version as it does in any dictionary, I have no problem with my standards. Saying that there are no incidents is not correct, because you do not know that. There is no data to support it. There is no data to support anything at all. Saying that it's not been reported is correct, but you may not draw inferences to it because there is nothing to draw an inference from. This is also logic gone astray in your version as it was in my former detractor. You may not draw a conclusion of an issue based on a completel lack of data. Where I come from, that's just called "making **** up".

    You should have no problem with me banking on the clans being ungrateful terrorists based on the aforementioned bombings, correct?
    Only if, once again, you draw conclusion that:

    1. The people involved in the terrorist bombings were in fact Clan, of which there is no data whatsoever to support that conclusion. The data does show that the tactics used are those of the Dust Brigade however. You could logically draw THAT conclusion, but you do not. It's just "Clan did it". Yadda yadda yadda.

    2. The people involved were not provoked in some manner. Again, there is no data from which to draw a conclusion. There is no data at all. None. Zero.

    And as far as being "ungrateful", why do you think that gratitude is something that the Clans owed to OT? I'd love to hear that one explained to me sometime.
    -----------------------------------
    The few, the proud...the Traders.
    -----------------------------------

    Maartens - 220 Mogul and former gadfly of Rimor. Now I'm just a major n00b.

    In defeat, malice. In victory, revenge!

  10. #130
    "We're making an awful lot of assumptions here, aren't we, Jo? You're assuming that OT did nothing to the Clan during that time, or vice versa. You're likely assuming wrong, but the official history line does not give any more details between the two dates. (..)

    Saying that "OT left the Clans in peace for 151 years" is not very likely, but there is no evidence to state what occured during this time. But hey, I can make assumptions too, and say that OT was a complete monster during these time frames and say that OT never left the Clans alone and the "terrorists" were engaging in punitive actions."


    Au contraire, i'd say the lack of evidence to support your assumptions is a very strong fact to support my case. It's very simple really when you think about it -- Omni-Tek was under close scrutiny of ICC due to its earlier handling of the clan issue. And there was also the infamous Sol Banking, staying close and itching to get their hands on the piece of notum pie with a slightest pretext.

    If there was any incidents originated by Omni-Tek, you can bet the clans would scream foul the very minute it happened, as that'd give them immediate backing of ICC and strong corporation to support their case ... and net them even more privileges they'd already gotten. That there's no records of such, including the ICC's and clans' own records, can only mean one of two things:

    * that either Omni-Tek was smart and played things clean... and given the handling of neutrals and the Jobe which took place during that time it seems most likely. Thus there was no incidents of such nature, and the mine bombing was unprovoked (in the sense no objective 3rd part would support such cause)

    * or that there actually was some incidents. But instead of filling the complaint with ICC about them and taking legal route like any sensible person, your affiliates preferred to blow up innocent people... which, am sorry to say, is a clear sign of sociopathy and can't be defended in any reasonable manner. (nor is for that matter an unprovoked attack in the first listed case...)


    "See the above rebuttal. Yadda yadda yadda, we can make inferences to what was going on here, and it proves nothing."

    I don't see any true rebuttal here... all i see is a grown up man with his fingers in his ears, his eyes shut and screaming "naaanaa it wasn't so and i can't heeeear you!" as loud as he can, because the reality he'd have to face isn't to his liking. Not like this juvenile behaviour is that different from general level of clan rhetorics but still... mildly disappointing. ;s


    "OT does lack institutional memory, because what happened in the interim just shows that OT will do, say and act like it wants to when confronted with something that it does not like."

    Simple fact remains; no matter if OT likes the clans or not, no matter what --if anything-- either side did to the other during that time, it was the clans that failed to act in civilized manner. Not Omni-Tek. And what happened in the interim shows that the clans will rather kill than try to cooperate or function in a lawful system

    (a tradition carried proudly to this day where a clan commander can set laws to shoot civilians based on his personal hates, and not only is he not charged for it and the laws revoked, not only no one even objects... but certain people go as far as to defend him. And you have the gall to chastize Omni-Tek for 'how they act when confronted with something they don't like'... how about cleaning your own garden before you start throwing stones into the one of your neighbor?


    "Oh, the irony! You have the gall to preach at me! And your arguments are pedantic. You lose."

    I think the ironic part is my arguments were exact to the point you failed to refute them, and you in turn couldn't get your facts straight (since you were already called on it, i'll leave it unadressed) and then you call it your victory. Is it how you 'win all the arguments' Mr.Crime? ;s


    "So, you too shall become an OT Cheerleader?"

    Oh, hardly; takes way too much time to really bother in the long run. 'Tis just when you try to do the usual clan dance-and-song number of calling how "anything that Clan does to you, you deserve" from the high grounds, i can't resist reminding that your lease on that particular piece of land ended in 29374 by your own doing... nothing more than that. ;s
    Last edited by Joannah; Sep 28th, 2004 at 13:17:31.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Crime
    But you did. Your original bashing of my pointing to old Earth political and philosophical tenets were due to the fact that you believed that the "cavemen" were beneath your notice as unevolved beings.
    I called your Jefferson a caveman, correct. I also pointed out that we had followed his example by amending our lease to Rubi-Ka, our constitution, if you will, when we included a limited lease on the northern lands in the Clans Rights Treaty. Lacking any argument after realizing that we were following Jefferson’s example, you latched on to the caveman example. Perhaps I was wrong in doing so, but I knew it would get an emotional response from you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Crime
    What I meant is that you would not not enjoy it. Due to the fact that I do not assign myself to your theories, you would not find it amusing because I would likely disagree with everything you said.
    Actually, I do find it amusing. Especially when you refuse to concede points, call people’s arguments idiotic rather than address the issues they bring up, and then declare victory. It makes me chuckle every time. In fact, I sometimes find myself looking forward to your next rant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Crime
    Saying that there are no incidents is not correct, because you do not know that. There is no data to support it.
    This is somewhat true. There are no recorded Omni-Tek/clan conflicts in that century and a half until the clan-affiliated terrorists attacked the notum mining facilities. However, you do have two major political developments, that being the emergence of the neutral population and the establishment of Jobe. Both groups received no interference from Omni-Tek in their creation. Also, you have the construction of Rome as the site of the post lease democratic government. Omni-Tek is clearly looking to the future in that effort, as the end of the lease is a good four centuries off at that point.

    These are facts. We have two political groups arise that are not interfered with, the construction of a city for the post lease democratic government, and no recorded armed conflict until the clan affiliated terrorists arrack the notum mines. You could be right, there could have been instances of conflict in the century and a half. However, then one must address why these punitive actions were justified when they killed not only security personnel but also civilian miners.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Crime
    And as far as being "ungrateful", why do you think that gratitude is something that the Clans owed to OT? I'd love to hear that one explained to me sometime.
    I can go into it again, but I’m starting to think I should just macro a script: Teraforming, Clans Rights Treaty, the fact that we didn’t slaughter you during the corporate wars after we developed insurance tech, Mutant bounties, and the Amnesty are the big ones.
    Marisha Durousseau, War Dominatrix of The Honored Maidens

    Resources exist to be consumed. And consumed they will be, if not by this generation then by some future. By what right does this forgotten future seek to deny us our birthright?--CEO Nwabudike Morgan, "The Ethics of Greed"

    Read Marisha's Journal, and see what she's doing

  12. #132
    I called your Jefferson a caveman, correct. I also pointed out that we had followed his example by amending our lease to Rubi-Ka, our constitution, if you will, when we included a limited lease on the northern lands in the Clans Rights Treaty. Lacking any argument after realizing that we were following Jefferson’s example, you latched on to the caveman example. Perhaps I was wrong in doing so, but I knew it would get an emotional response from you.
    Farcical. You didn't even remotely follow Jefferson's example. You "amended" by the gun. I don't believe Jefferson did that. He amended by a vote. And if you believe that you can play me or something, you are sadly mistaken. Do not misinterpret concerted debate for "emotional response". They are quite different. It merely shows your arrogance even more. Most people I know that are arrogant compensate for something that lacks elsewhere. So I wonder, what deficiencies are you making up for?

    Actually, I do find it amusing. Especially when you refuse to concede points, call people’s arguments idiotic rather than address the issues they bring up, and then declare victory. It makes me chuckle every time. In fact, I sometimes find myself looking forward to your next rant.
    Your amusement does not give me pause or concern. I refuse to concede points that I find ludicrous, logic that I find non-sequitered and sentiments that only reinforce a slanted bias. Since I am quite able to address the issues every single time I post a debate rebuttal, I am also quite satisfied by how I respond to them. It makes me chuckle that your own supposed superiority continues to be your only topic. Once again, arrogance is your only contribution. Bravo!

    This is somewhat true. There are no recorded Omni-Tek/clan conflicts in that century and a half until the clan-affiliated terrorists attacked the notum mining facilities. However, you do have two major political developments, that being the emergence of the neutral population and the establishment of Jobe. Both groups received no interference from Omni-Tek in their creation. Also, you have the construction of Rome as the site of the post lease democratic government. Omni-Tek is clearly looking to the future in that effort, as the end of the lease is a good four centuries off at that point.

    These are facts. We have two political groups arise that are not interfered with, the construction of a city for the post lease democratic government, and no recorded armed conflict until the clan affiliated terrorists arrack the notum mines. You could be right, there could have been instances of conflict in the century and a half. However, then one must address why these punitive actions were justified when they killed not only security personnel but also civilian miners.
    Since you are not able to observe the facts as written and wish to bring in unrelated events as proof of your baseless arguments, it's of no use to continue to discuss it further with you. The logic dictates that a lack of information precludes making any conclusions about the subject. But I can see that rather than use logic, you just prefer to win the argument at all costs, and logic is apparently one of those casualties. Fine by me. Be a lawyer. That's all they are good for anyway.

    I can go into it again, but I’m starting to think I should just macro a script: Teraforming, Clans Rights Treaty, the fact that we didn’t slaughter you during the corporate wars after we developed insurance tech, Mutant bounties, and the Amnesty are the big ones.
    I see. So you can tell me that Clan as a political entity must be grateful to Omni-Tek for all of these things. Wrong. And completely hilarious. Terraforming occured long before the Clans existed, and therefore is completely extraneous to the topic. The Clans Treaty was made because OT was pressured by the ICC to do so, for not to do it would have brought punitive actions against the corporation that would have resulted in loss of profit. Again you attempt to bring altruism into the debate, and it's transparent that there is no altruism or morality within Omni-Tek. And you continue this charade of compassion in suggesting that it was because of remorse that you did not take advantage of insurance. You would have but you knew there would be repercussions by the entire hypercorporate structure if you had. Mutant bounties? Please. The Clans are to be grateful for OT issuing bounties on that which they created and that which the Clans freed? That's just amazing. Pay for others to clean up your messes. And that is supposed to instill gratitude? I doubt it. It perpetuates bloodlust. But OT likes that, don't they? And finally, the Amnesty. Funny, but your Amnesties never seem to last long. It's good PR, but we have seen what OT does when something upsets their applecart, like the terrorist activities of an infantesimally small amount of people. Once something like that happens, it's been convenient for you to discard agreements to an entire political organization based upon the actions of a small few. It's the way that OT has been able to break every agreement they have ever made. It's underhanded, dishonest and ruthless to the core. Just like I expect OT to behave every time they open their yaps.

    And since the lawyer cannot stand to ever be proven to be incorrect or at least not completely right, I hereby bow from this topic. You may have the last word, I care not any longer. Debating with you is like fapping with a bandsaw. Amusing at first, no doubt. But just painful thereafter.
    -----------------------------------
    The few, the proud...the Traders.
    -----------------------------------

    Maartens - 220 Mogul and former gadfly of Rimor. Now I'm just a major n00b.

    In defeat, malice. In victory, revenge!

  13. #133

    But before I do...

    Au contraire, i'd say the lack of evidence to support your assumptions is a very strong fact to support my case. It's very simple really when you think about it -- Omni-Tek was under close scrutiny of ICC due to its earlier handling of the clan issue. And there was also the infamous Sol Banking, staying close and itching to get their hands on the piece of notum pie with a slightest pretext.

    If there was any incidents originated by Omni-Tek, you can bet the clans would scream foul the very minute it happened, as that'd give them immediate backing of ICC and strong corporation to support their case ... and net them even more privileges they'd already gotten. That there's no records of such, including the ICC's and clans' own records, can only mean one of two things:

    * that either Omni-Tek was smart and played things clean... and given the handling of neutrals and the Jobe which took place during that time it seems most likely. Thus there was no incidents of such nature, and the mine bombing was unprovoked (in the sense no objective 3rd part would support such cause)

    * or that there actually was some incidents. But instead of filling the complaint with ICC about them and taking legal route like any sensible person, your affiliates preferred to blow up innocent people... which, am sorry to say, is a clear sign of sociopathy and can't be defended in any reasonable manner. (nor is for that matter an unprovoked attack in the first listed case...)
    Nothing here has any basis of recorded fact. It is merely supposition, and bears no further argument. You can make up your own logic based upon your own prejudices, but it's recognized to be nothing more than that. A lack of evidence defeats any sort of basis for "truth".

    I don't see any true rebuttal here... all i see is a grown up man with his fingers in his ears, his eyes shut and screaming "naaanaa it wasn't so and i can't heeeear you!" as loud as he can, because the reality he'd have to face isn't to his liking. Not like this juvenile behaviour is that different from general level of clan rhetorics but still... mildly disappointing. ;s
    As I mentioned previously, the previous rebuttal in my post covered my response, but I'm sorry that you must have missed it. I prefer not to repeat myself. And it's rather amusing to have the debate turn personal, as you clearly are. I refute your claims, and I may say less than nice things about your arguments, but I in no way, shape or form call YOU childish, as you clearly are saying that I am here. Personal statements are things I do not do, so again, I win.

    Simple fact remains; no matter if OT likes the clans or not, no matter what --if anything-- either side did to the other during that time, it was the clans that failed to act in civilized manner. Not Omni-Tek. And what happened in the interim shows that the clans will rather kill than try to cooperate or function in a lawful system

    (a tradition carried proudly to this day where a clan commander can set laws to shoot civilians based on his personal hates, and not only is he not charged for it and the laws revoked, not only no one even objects... but certain people go as far as to defend him. And you have the gall to chastize Omni-Tek for 'how they act when confronted with something they don't like'... how about cleaning your own garden before you start throwing stones into the one of your neighbor?
    Laws written by OT have no bearing on me as a law-abiding member of the Clans. Where is it written that you hold jurisprudence over Clan territory? It does not. It has furthermore never been proven that the perpetuators of the terrorist acts on the four notum sites were in fact Clan. It was merely a convenient excuse for OT to go in with guns blazing, like it always does when it wants back what it had to give up because of something it did wrong previously. My garden is perfectly clean, thank you very much. Our Clan commander is allowed to have his opinions, and so far he has not acted upon any of them. Tir is off-limits to Neutrals. What does this have to do with Omni-Tek? Nothing. Clearly Neutrals are able to move into Old Athen at will nowadays, and even better yet, the great commander did what he did for a reason. It's no skin off my apple that Omni personnel don't like the reasons. We do. Claiming superiority based upon your own prejudices against those you are at war with is nothing to write home about. And Omni-Tek is amazingly easy to throw stones at, because they continue to do things that put big bullseyes on their backs. Perhaps if they didn't do things like that, it would be more difficult for people like me to throw barbs at them. But they do, so it is child's play.

    I think the ironic part is my arguments were exact to the point you failed to refute them, and you in turn couldn't get your facts straight (since you were already called on it, i'll leave it unadressed) and then you call it your victory. Is it how you 'win all the arguments' Mr.Crime? ;s
    I think it's more telling that, rather than read my own retraction at the timeline shift I made, my argument STILL holds water nicely. But like the lawyer, you too just point to a gaff in date keeping (which I also admitted to making a mistake at) and say "he's just dumb" and leave it at that. Even though I said 3 days when it was really 7 days, it doesn't matter, because the premise of my argument still stands, which is that OT did not give sufficient time for Clan to investigate the matter before coming into Clan territory illegally, all barrels blazing. So, be a lawyer like the other. Don't bother to distill the argument. It's OK, I am used to that by now.

    And now, I am finished with this. Good bye and good luck.
    -----------------------------------
    The few, the proud...the Traders.
    -----------------------------------

    Maartens - 220 Mogul and former gadfly of Rimor. Now I'm just a major n00b.

    In defeat, malice. In victory, revenge!

  14. #134
    "Laws written by OT have no bearing on me as a law-abiding member of the Clans. Where is it written that you hold jurisprudence over Clan territory? It does not."

    Just to clear this up, when i said the Clans failed to function within lawful system i did not mean their unwilingness to cooperate with Omni-Tek in meeting the company demands.

    What i meant was the laws which set ICC as the authority where it comes to corporate politics. And that *if* there was any accident caused by Omni-Tek that could be given as pretext for the mine bombing... like you were trying to imply... the Clans should've presented that accident to the higher power which is the ICC. As opposed to trying to take law in their own hands by killing people, like they did.

    By trying to act like judge, jury and executioner towards OT the Clans opened themselves to being paid with the same coin. And they were.

  15. #135
    I am somewhat amazed this futile discussion gets perpetuated. Trust me, there's very few arguments I have not yet heard at nauseam, and they don't work to change or improve anything if they are repeated even more often.

    Omni-Tek will always consider this whole planet and all it's inhabitants legally under their control. The clans will in return deny Omni-Tek the right to claim anything. Each side accuses the other one of beginning the war, which is about as interesting for us now as the question on who came first, the egg or the chicken. The Neutrals will always claim that reaping benefits while standing somewhere between the warring factions while claming to stay out of it is an acceptable option to either side.

    In the end we are in a situation where the powers-that-be are elusive and beyond grasp on all sides. Either cause the leadership is unclear, or unavailable. And while this situation prevails, the lesser powers struggle for survival - or dominance.

    It's anarchy. Three years of talking that I witnessed by now changed nothing. The opening of the gates to the Shadowlands, the subsequent exploration and the theories spawned from there have not worked to unite the divided people. The aliens attacking the planet and threatening the people as a whole did not. I honestly do not know what must happen for the factions to forget their petty struggly and realize that they're all just uprooting the tree they all sit on.

    Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

    Maybe at some point I will begin to hope again, but so far, my experience shows me there's not much to hope for. I'm not blaming any side, or specific persons.
    Corrine Daimoness Wright
    - Veteran of Apocalypse
    - General of the Mercury Dragons (ret.)
    - Member of the Grumpy Old Crat Bunch

    If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams

  16. #136
    I find myself much in agreement with Diamoness on this matter, which has got to be a first. However on one key issue I do have to differ. If we agree that the Omni-Clan conflict is pointless, then the Neutral stance of wanting to keep out of it is not only reasonable the choice, it is also the moral choice.

    For those of us already mixed up in this mess, our obligation is to find ways to bring the hostilities to and end, one small step at a time.

    Savoy
    Dabblez - Rubi-Ka Universal Robots (RUR)
    We put the Art into Artificial Intelligence!

  17. #137
    First, I hear the mumblings of the word "ceasefire", now I see "pointless".

    Athens must be rolling in his grave.
    Last edited by Astera; Oct 6th, 2004 at 05:45:17.

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