Sound and Fury, Signifying Nothing

[Astera]

Yes, the Tir accord is void today. Of course, that leaves the entire planet legally under the jurisdiction of Omni-tek. Whether you or Simon Silverstone like that or not is irrelevant.


I guess that means we have to forget everything, drop our guns and play nice.

[Marisha]

Originally posted by Astera
I guess that means we have to forget everything, drop our guns and play nice.

While it would be a good step towards a new treaty and a ceasefire, I doubt that we’d ask you to forget everything.

[Naefen]

None of us must forget the mistakes done by past generations. We must remember them in order to stay away from them.
And that goes for all factions.

[Sallust]

Originally posted by Keldros

Yes, the Tir accord is void today. Of course, that leaves the entire planet legally under the jurisdiction of Omni-tek. Whether you or Simon Silverstone like that or not is irrelevant.

OT by no means has authority over Rubi-Ka or any free people. Not Omni-Tek, Sol Banking, ICC, nor any other corporation has the right to people's lives.

David Marlin taught us, lead us, and fought and sacrificed with us so that all the descendants of the Solitus could be free. The corporate masters are the same as the Omega and their pathetic corporate slaves.

Who do Omni-Tek and ICC think they are that their authority supercedes that of our leader David Marlin who delivered us from slavery?

The statement that "Omni-Pol running around in Tir even though they had no business there" is obviously a claim based on one clanner's uninformed opinion. The Council of Truth themselves agreed Omni-Pol had jurisdiction over the Sentinels when they accepted the Tir Accord.

This is also sadly uninfromed. Sentinels did not have control of Tir, it was a Clan city of all the Clans.

As for the Council of Truth not being a government, that is also sadly misinformed. It is the only truly legitimate form of government, the self-government of the free. The Council is made up only of the willing, no member Clan is coerced but all decide by free choice to subject themselves to the will of the majority.

This is also how David Marlin set things up with his Council and even in that time there were misguided warlords like the Sentinels who always caused problems. There remains a majority will of the people however who do not.

[Keldros]

Originally posted by Sallust

As for the Council of Truth not being a government, that is also sadly misinformed. It is the only truly legitimate form of government, the self-government of the free. The Council is made up only of the willing, no member Clan is coerced but all decide by free choice to subject themselves to the will of the majority.

That is exactly my point. In the past the Sentinels were opposed to the Council of Truth, and under the terms agreed to by the Council of Truth in the Tir Accord, this placed the Sentinels under the jurisdiction of Omni-tek, as well as any other clans that didn't claim membership in the council.

If you don't like the way this ended up, the blame falls partly on the original Council of Truth for agreeing to those conditions, and mainly on the Council of Ares for running off the only group that claimed legitimate authority over many of the clans.

[Keldros]

Originally posted by Sallust


OT by no means has authority over Rubi-Ka or any free people. Not Omni-Tek, Sol Banking, ICC, nor any other corporation has the right to people's lives.

I agree with this entirely. However, Omni-Tek does hold the lease to the entire planet. Anyone who does not work for them is essentially a guest on this planet, even if they've lived here their entire lives. The way a person acts determines whether he is a welcome or unwelcome guest.

[Naefen]

Originally posted by Sallust


OT by no means has authority over Rubi-Ka or any free people. Not Omni-Tek, Sol Banking, ICC, nor any other corporation has the right to people's lives.

I completely and utterly disagree with that.
Omni Tek makes the laws on this planet and has the authority to uphold them. Piece-loving inhabitants have no problems with these laws. However, those who brake the laws through terrorism and other criminal actions such as home invasion, theft and manslaughter must pay the price for theyre crimes. A world without these laws would be utter chaos.

Im amazed how I constantly have to listen to clanners speaking as if they were freed from slavery yesterday when infact, slavery has not existed on this planet for years and years. Constantly, the clans are hiding theyre criminal and terrorist activities behind a veil of self-pity. A veil witch they have not earned through the hardships they claim to have experienced. I imagine the first clanners fought for freedom. But, the opression ended many years ago and todays clanners must soon face the fact that they are the ones rocking the boat.

[Sallust]

Anybody, including Simon Silverstone can and do say they "make the laws and have the authority to enforce them". Morally there is no difference between the Sentinels and Omni-Tek. Omni-Tek's "lease" is no better than the Sentinels "protection" of Tir.

and the fact is Slaverey is still very much active on this planet, no matter what name it chooses to go by. Today it goes by "corporate citizen", but the truth is still that somebody else considers themselves the owner of your life and considers themselves to own your rights and that you yourself hold none.

Omni-Tek children are brainwashed to accept this from an early age. But neutrals, how do you feel about Omni-Tek "corporate citizenship" where they claim to own you? In fact looking at neutrals you'll begin to see a shade of the advantages Omni-Tek will give you when you're not used as combat tools by them.

[Xhairs]

Oh come off it Sallust. As much as i respect you for your belifes i must say you got one point in there totaly wrong. Every person working for Omni-Tek today can chose to terminate their contract with the Corporation. It´s a choice, like everything in life.

"Omni-Tek children are brainwashed to accept this from an early age."

And the Clan children are not? Heck, i went over to Omni-Tek a long time ago, and still i got the knee-jerk reaction to check that my weapon is ready when ever i see a Slayerdroid without controler nearby.

Yes Omni-Tek teaches the children that we are the good guys and does everything righ and to fear the Clans. But it is the Clans at large, and the extremists like the Sentinels in particular, that gives those teachings enough truth to grow in.

As for Silverstone making laws... i never seen any "Sentinel book of the law". And laws not written down can easily be changed to fit the occation. You know that as well as i.

And the Neutrals... Not speaking for them, but i see no reason for them not to see a bit more favorable at OT as long as one of the most powerful and numerous Clans on RK has a "Shoot on su****ion of sight" order on what used to be mostly neutral merchants and people wanting to be left alone. That is why some Neutral organisations now lean so much towards Omni-tek that they might as well sign the contract and get it over with, and others are just plain mercenarys using the flag of Neutrality as a convenient thing to hide behind.

[Dabblez]

Originally posted by Sallust
Omni-Tek children are brainwashed to accept this from an early age.

Clan children are brainwashed to believe that Omni-Tek children are brainwashed.

See, I can do it too! Look how easy it is to make an accusation without providing any supporting evidence.

Let me try another one... The Unionist Clan is secretly backed by Sol-Toys.

I think I am getting the hang of this now!

Savoy

[Cyani]

Savoy is a bot... she exhibits far too much logic for a Solitus.




Oh yes, I must say this is fun... and easy to do also..
Let me try one more!



Silverstone is a self rightous egomaniacle extremist!!!
Gah... that one is true

[Sallust]

Ah yes, that is why the Clans have "clan reform". We all know what the Omni line that Omni Reform is teaching to your children. The Clans have no such reciprocal brainwashing facilities and organizations.

and I doubt it is as much reaction to silverstone as merely the fact that OT has been using groups like the Warr mercenaries as its defacto agents against the Clans. Neutral troops are cheaper and more disposable to OT aren't they?

[Xhairs]

No, the Clans don´t have a "Clan Reform". You got parrents so tied up in their old thinking that you don´t need that. When i grew up i had a friend, not close but he was my friend, that dared suggest that OT might not be as bad as most said. He got beaten so bad it took a Doc the better part of a day to patch him up, and he was getting the cold shoulder from all the other kids in Tir for months afterwards, complete with shoulderpads and everything. Think that kind of behaviour falls under the description of brainwashin too.

Oh, so you are saying that the fact that Silverstone and company took over Tir and started blowing away Neutral travelers had absolutely nothing to do with the Neutral Newland City hiring in Loren and her thugs?

[Korejar]

Originally posted by Cyani
Savoy is a bot... she exhibits far too much logic for a Solitus.

Doesn't work, you supplied reasoning.

Alot of the problem is that people do take what they believe about the other side and refuse to allow anything to change it. Am I a 'corprate slave'? No. Am I affiliated with Omni-Tek? Yes. However, I hold no anger, wish of harm, or wish to do anything to 'clanners'. I live my own life, I chose my own actions.

Faction only matters if you let it matter. I couldn't care less if someone is Clan, Omni, or Neutral. The person should be who you look at. Some have shown themselves not to be trusted, and to be very violent. Others have shown themselves to be benign and reasonable. It when people start paying attention to this that peace will eventually start to be possible. Not until everyone stops shooting on sight will that be possible.

Judge the person, not the affiliation.

Except for Cyani, she's evil. *nods*

[Marisha]

Originally posted by Sallust
Ah yes, that is why the Clans have "clan reform". We all know what the Omni line that Omni Reform is teaching to your children. The Clans have no such reciprocal brainwashing facilities and organizations.

I think the proper way of phrasing this is that the Clans have no centralized brainwashing facilities and organizations. I was under the impression that some clans handle their indoctrination separately, such as an “Academies” one had to attend before becoming part of the main clan.

As for Omni Reform brainwashing people, Reforms’ main job is to educate defecting clansmembers so that they can become a productive member of our society. It’s mainly job and skill training, but each department runs things differently.

As for being brainwashed as a child, I have loving, caring parents that brought me up with a strong moral background, ensured that I was enrolled in a good private religious school, and have been supportive of me as I’ve rose from the ranks of middle management to the executive. If this is what the clans define as brainwashing, then I guess I’ve been brainwashed.

Originally posted by Sallust
and I doubt it is as much reaction to silverstone as merely the fact that OT has been using groups like the Warr mercenaries as its defacto agents against the Clans. Neutral troops are cheaper and more disposable to OT aren't they?

Sallust, Silverstones underling Frisk said that he would attack Newland, if he were in charge. As a response, the Neutral Newland City Council hired Miss Warr and her mercenaries. Omni-Tek had nothing to do with their contract.

I could provide you with the appropiate documentation, but in historical debates, you seem to remember events they way you want to remember them, and not the way they actually happened.

[Kithraks]

I'll say this again, it was Omni-Tek employees working with the Neutral community together that we managed to peacefully got Loren Warr and her Hired Thugs removed from Newland. Is it really that much to ask for a lone Omni-Admin Administrator to ask for a chance to talk to a Clanner without being shot at?

[Sallust]

You claim too much credit for yourselves. Neutrals worked long and hard for their freedom. OT was quite divided and I remember Boss Ross had to make a personal donation.

When Loren Warr was rampaging through newland when Neutral guards took control of their own city. Their were plenty of Omnis around, but it was neutrals and clans fighting for neutral independence from Omni Mercenary Thugs.

[Astera]

*shakes her head*

[Daimoness]

Originally posted by Marisha
Originally posted by Astera
I guess that means we have to forget everything, drop our guns and play nice.

While it would be a good step towards a new treaty and a ceasefire, I doubt that we’d ask you to forget everything.

If you want to take my weapon from me, I have only five words for you:

From my cold dead hands!

Originally posted by Keldros
Yes, the Tir accord is void today. Of course, that leaves the entire planet legally under the jurisdiction of Omni-tek. Whether you or Simon Silverstone like that or not is irrelevant.

I burst into roaring laughter when I read that. What drugs did you take to come to this conclusion? Out of sync with reality, are we? Which law exactly do you quote? The ICC regulation that gives you the lease over the planet? Or did you confuse martial law with what a civilized man understands as law?

The Tir Accord is void, so much is true, but that gives you no more "jurisdiction" over this planet than you had before. Face facts: You have a corrupt police force that follows no other agenda than it's own. I have yet to see any courtroom in Omni-1, or any judge for that matter. I have not even seen a code of laws for Rubi-Ka. So, what are you talking about? Do you think buying a lease from ICC and having an army of gun-wielding thugs at your discretion entitles you to pose as lawmaker or even government of a planet, or a faction thereof?

In ancient times, governments were maybe created through means of power. But with the advent of modern civilization, people do no longer believe in grace by gods or some other authority beyond their grasp. The wheel of time does not run backwards. You better accept that, like it or not.

However, Omni-Tek does hold the lease to the entire planet. Anyone who does not work for them is essentially a guest on this planet, even if they've lived here their entire lives. The way a person acts determines whether he is a welcome or unwelcome guest.

You continuously quote the regulations by some "authority" that is not a government but just a conglomerate or corporations. ICC has been created by the corporations to keep your kind from waging wars of supremacy against each other which would cost too much money. The corporations created ICC to settle their disputes more cost-efficiently and divide the spoils among themselves. But all that still does not make it a government, and it certainly is no authority I would call upon if I am seeking justice or protection.

Laws, as as states, are not made by corporations. They are made by the people. Any authority that does not come from the people is dictatorship in one way or the other and it's the right - no, the duty - of every subject to fight it. Holding a lease over a planet that's only a dustball with a mining facility might be one thing. But this planet is populated by now, generations being born here. They are not guests as you like to call them, they are natives. Born and raised by parents born and raised on Rubi-Ka. You cannot argue that away by waving some fancy contract that few of us ever signed or not even our parents signed. Contracts are not inherited. As much as I tried, I could not sign a contract that holds any legal consequences for my children or grand-children beyond the age of them being grown up and entitled to decide themselves.
And do not forget that one of the species living here cannot even leave the planet - even if they would wish to. I'm talking about the Nano Breed. They cannot survive without the notum-saturated surrounding of Rubi-Ka. How can you dare tell them they are only guests?

I am not your guest and none of my clansmen are. Someone who shoots at his guests is no longer a host, but a threat. You brought this onto yourself long ago. Of course Omni-Tek has changed and now maybe even regrets the errors of the past. Yet there is nothing you can do to restore the faith of the people. We want our own life and a government that we elect by vote, and there is nothing you can do to change our minds. Even if you killed us all - which is unlikely to happen - we would still all die as free men.

Never again will any of us bow his head to Omni-Tek. Or any other corporation for that matter.

The sooner you accept that your "right" to pose as a government is nothing but self-deception, the sooner we can start talking about the future of this planet. But for as long as you are unable to break away from your dream of supremacy and ownership of this planet, I could just as well try to discuss the future of Rubi--Ka with the walls of my appartment.

Again: We are going nowhere and we are never going to bow our heads to any authority than the one we elect ourselves. The sooner you accept this fact, the sooner we can start to talk reason.

While I am already constraining your brain - what exactly do you expect from the clans when you constantly threaten us by citing that you are holding the lease over the whole planet and thereby implying that we are at you grace and you have the right and the power to crush us anytime? Do you really expect to whip us into submission after we held out against you for hundreds of years? Is your perception of reality so twisted that you cannot see this it not going to happen? I am just wondering. You got a whole department dealing in nothing else but propaganda, yet you do not even seem to understand the basic rules of psychology.

The statement that "Omni-Pol running around in Tir even though they had no business there" is obviously a claim based on one clanner's uninformed opinion. The Council of Truth themselves agreed Omni-Pol had jurisdiction over the Sentinels when they accepted the Tir Accord.

Calling me uninformed falls quite short of an outright insult. The Council of Truth could agree about themselves and Omni-Tek, but since you said they had no jurisdiction over the Sentinels, how could they agree that the Sentinels were under Omni-Tek jurisdiction? And during the time of the old CoT, the Sentinels were not controlling Tir. After the old CoT stopped working, the ICC assumed they has whatever right to occupy our capital. Since no one else moved, Mr. Silverstone ordered his Sentinel to throw the ICC squatters out of the city and set up a defense that would no longer allow Omni-Tek insurgents to roam the city at will.

As for the (oddly silent) Council of Ares, I'm wondering what their relationship is with this new Council of Truth (which by its own admission has no authority, which diminishes its credibility quite a bit).

Again, who is uninformed here? The Council of Ares was originally created to force the old CoT into action and after it became obvious that the CoT was defunct, an attempt was made to replace it but due to the lack of acceptance, this failed. The CoA does no longer exist after being formally disbanded over a year ago. I would have to check against my archive of personal files for the correct date but I can provide this if you request it.

As for Omni Reform brainwashing people, Reforms’ main job is to educate defecting clansmembers so that they can become a productive member of our society.

I remember that the loudspeakers in Omni-1 continuously shout random propaganda around, like "Omni-Tek is your friend". I cannot find any historic records of democratic governments using such forms of "education", but I find plenty of totalitarian systems using this form of propaganda. Actually, the first government using loudspeakers to indoctrinate people were the Sovjet Union in the 1920's. And they, too, had signs all around with slogans and orders on them. Just like Omni-1. And the most dangerous part about it is that most subjects no longer recognize they are being indoctrinated after a while. Just like you.

-D

Edit for minor spelling errors and a misleading expression.

[Keldros]

Originally posted by Daimoness
Out of sync with reality, are we? Which law exactly do you quote? The ICC regulation that gives you the lease over the planet?

To answer your question, yes you are out of sync with reality. The last time I checked, I had the right to mine notum, but I wasn't leasing the planet.

Do you think buying a lease from ICC and having an army of gun-wielding thugs at your discretion entitles you to pose as lawmaker or even government of a planet, or a faction thereof?

I have an army of gun-wielding thugs at my discretion? Apparently you forgot some medication this morning, because I don't see them anywhere.

In ancient times, governments were maybe created through means of power. But with the advent of modern civilization, people do no longer believe in grace by gods or some other authority beyond their grasp. The wheel of time does not run backwards. You better accept that, like it or not.

It's rather easy to grasp Omni-tek, unlike certain clans who try to pretend there is honor in acts of theft, murder of innocents, and even genocide.

And do not forget that one of the species living here cannot even leave the planet - even if they would wish to. I'm talking about the Nano Breed. They cannot survive without the notum-saturated surrounding of Rubi-Ka. How can you dare tell them they are only guests?

I think this is as close as you come to having a legitimate argument. Omni-Tek has made reasonable provisions allowing my kind to live where we choose. This is, of course, a temporary solution. It is also very clear that a permanent solution to this issue will likely come about within the span of a single lifetime, so why should we be compelled to act out of impatience and settle for a less than optimum solution?

I am not your guest and none of my clansmen are. Someone who shoots at his guests is no longer a host, but a threat.

Agreed, but the same can be said of someone who shoots at his neighbor..

You brought this onto yourself long ago. Of course Omni-Tek has changed and now maybe even regrets the errors of the past. Yet there is nothing you can do to restore the faith of the people. We want our own life and a government that we elect by vote, and there is nothing you can do to change our minds. Even if you killed us all - which is unlikely to happen - we would still all die as free men.

As you've pointed out previously, my species will most likely never be totally "free" since we are bound to this planet. However, to the extent that I can be free, I much prefer living as a free man over dying as a free man.

For that matter, as long as you are unwilling to change your mind or even consider different choices you have available, you will be a slave to history. Frankly, I'm more concerned about the present, and more concerned still about the future.

You're not just dooming yourself to repeat history, you're actually trying to mire yourself deeper in the suffering.

Never again will any of us bow his head to Omni-Tek. Or any other corporation for that matter.

I don't think anyone's asking that from you. However, where I come from it's generally considered common courtesy not to expect anything from someone else and claim they have no right to expect the same from you.

The clans claim Omni-Tek has no right to put troops into your cities, even in pursuit of a known terrorist, and then many of you have the unmitigated gall to kill Omni and neutral civilians, and even threaten the outright destruction of all neutral cities on the planet.

The sooner you accept that your "right" to pose as a government is nothing but self-deception, the sooner we can start talking about the future of this planet.

Wait...you want to discuss how the planet should be run, and I'm expected to have no say even in my own community? That's downright hypocritical of you.

But for as long as you are unable to break away from your dream of supremacy and ownership of this planet, I could just as well try to discuss the future of Rubi--Ka with the walls of my appartment.

Are you suggesting I'm one of those NLF fanatics?

Again: We are going nowhere and we are never going to bow our heads to any authority than the one we elect ourselves. The sooner you accept this fact, the sooner we can start to talk reason.

Well, you're certainly correct here, at least the part about going nowhere. Maybe if you were willing to consider the options available to you there would be some progress.

Freedom for all individuals means there will be disagreements. Disagreements are usually resolved through compromise. Logically, freedom will lead to compromise. Logic then also dictates that the only way to avoid compromise is to never be free, which leads us to your current situation--you will never be free because you are unwilling to reach a compromise.

While I am already constraining your brain - what exactly do you expect from the clans when you constantly threaten us by citing that you are holding the lease over the whole planet and thereby implying that we are at you grace and you have the right and the power to crush us anytime? Do you really expect to whip us into submission after we held out against you for hundreds of years? Is your perception of reality so twisted that you cannot see this it not going to happen? I am just wondering. You got a whole department dealing in nothing else but propaganda, yet you do not even seem to understand the basic rules of psychology.

Really. Here I was, just starting to think you might be capable of being rational, and you start up with these random accusations again.

Calling me uninformed falls quite short of an outright insult.

Take your pick: uninformed or stark raving mad, both describe what you've said here pretty well. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you're really beginning to stretch the credibility of having any sanity with all these wild and completely unfounded accusations.

The Council of Truth could agree about themselves and Omni-Tek, but since you said they had no jurisdiction over the Sentinels, how could they agree that the Sentinels were under Omni-Tek jurisdiction?

Yes. What gives them the right to make that decision for someone they can't represent? Old Simon may not be a total nutcase after all.

And during the time of the old CoT, the Sentinels were not controlling Tir. After the old CoT stopped working, the ICC assumed they has whatever right to occupy our capital. Since no one else moved, Mr. Silverstone ordered his Sentinel to throw the ICC squatters out of the city and set up a defense that would no longer allow Omni-Tek insurgents to roam the city at will.

And kill neutrals who were assisting on clan business. Let's not forget the man he appointed as High Commander of Tir has aspirations to kill everyone in Newland City and Borealis. I guess he's just a bit too jealous of people who were actually capable of finding their own freedom.

Again, who is uninformed here? The Council of Ares was originally created to force the old CoT into action and after it became obvious that the CoT was defunct, an attempt was made to replace it but due to the lack of acceptance, this failed.

The CoA does no longer exist after being formally disbanded over a year ago. I would have to check against my archive of personal files for the correct date but I can provide this if you request it.

Please do. There appears to be a blackout of clan publications starting shortly after the Sentinels took over Tir. This looks su****iously like Sentinel censorship from where I am, due to the timeing and also since they don't like me coming to Tir to find out what I missed.

I remember that the loudspeakers in Omni-1 continuously shout random propaganda around, like "Omni-Tek is your friend". I cannot find any historic records of democratic governments using such forms of "education", but I find plenty of totalitarian systems using this form of propaganda. Actually, the first government using loudspeakers to indoctrinate people were the Sovjet Union in the 1920's. And they, too, had signs all around with slogans and orders on them. Just like Omni-1. And the most dangerous part about it is that most subjects no longer recognize they are being indoctrinated after a while. Just like you.

That's rather odd, considering I've never heard any loudspeakers in Borealis or Newland City.