Sound and Fury, Signifying Nothing

[Kithraks]

The millitants from both Omni-Tek and the Clans will be the death of us all. Call me when you folks are ready to begin rebuilding if I haven't been killed for trying to ensure that there is a future on Rubi-Ka.

[Nazly]

It sounds as though you await some statement from the CoT. At least the Sound and Fury doesn't signify nothing... quite yet.

Naz

[joshuacrime]

Hmmm, could be a musical in the offing. Rogers and Hammerstein, anyone?

Seriously, this is amusing to debate, how we both think each other are the cause for the current state of affairs. Like most wars that last over a generation, they mutate to such a huge degree that they no longer resemble the original conflict. On top of that, the participants are so unevolved, they cannot end the war because they don't know what else to do.

Funny how history continually repeats itself.

[Marisha]

Originally posted by Daimoness
You void the Tir Accord yet blame us to be fueling the conflict. Another strange misconception. By pulling away the only legal agreement that has been struck between OT and the clans you more or less declared war. You might not see it this way but that is irrelevant. We see it this way.

Can you at least bring yourself to admit that it is difficult to maintain a treaty between two governments when one of those governments disappears completely? If the situation had been reversed and the RK board had disappeared, would the clans of maintained the Tir Treaty?

[Sallust]

Funny, that seems to indicate Omni-Tek had no involvement in the fall of the previous CoT with marching hoards of Omni-Pol troops into Tir.

Omni-Tek went after the peaceful Clanners who proposed peace treaties rather than dealing with Sentinels or Dust Brigade who represent the lesser threat... one of arms easily squashed rather than public opinion and morality which is not so easy to defeat.

Anyways, you did us a favor in a way because the last CoT was too weak. It was made up of only a few Clans who could get their seats with power. The new Council of Truth is a true democracy made up of the major Clans and many more.

[Marisha]

Originally posted by Sallust
[Funny, that seems to indicate Omni-Tek had no involvement in the fall of the previous CoT with marching hoards of Omni-Pol troops into Tir.

When did we march troops into Tir prior to the abandonment of Tir by the old Council of Truth? I don’t recall hearing of any untill after the ICC Peacekeepers had moved in to provide security. Do you have any documentation, because I’m really curious about this one?

[Kithraks]

Originally posted by Sallust
The new Council of Truth is a true democracy made up of the major Clans and many more.

The new Council of Truth silences anyone that dosen't support an all out war with Omni-Tek. Yes, very democratic.

[Sallust]

It is Omni-Tek which has the history of silencing its workers.

Do you seriously believe The Pilgrims Clan would be such strong advocators of the Council of Truth if every minority voice and/or voice for peace were silenced?

As if Omni-Tek is even one to bring up such a ludicrous thing. Omni-Tek is the one which is both un-democratic and silences employs who disagree with the company line. Otherwise perhaps you'd like to show me your democracy? Show us how you allow dissenting voices to be heard in the upper ranks of Omni HQ?

your propaganda stretches thinner and thinner. Thank you for showing your baseless lies to the public.

[Kithraks]

The subject was the Council of Truth silencing anyone not in favor of a war. Stop trying to change the topic.

[Keldros]

Originally posted by Sallust

Anyways, you did us a favor in a way because the last CoT was too weak. It was made up of only a few Clans who could get their seats with power. The new Council of Truth is a true democracy made up of the major Clans and many more.

As you have pointed out several times, the current CoT either has no desire or no ability (or neither!) to enforce policies among its member clans. When I first heard the the clans were trying to form a new Council, I was very enthusiastic that we might see another cease-fire.

I don't know where Kithrak is getting his ideas, since most of the CoT members I have heard from have unfortunately indicated they are content with being figureheads, and that the Council has no real authority to make negotiations with anyone outside the clans.

[Dabblez]

Originally posted by Sallust
It is Omni-Tek which has the history of silencing its workers.

Do you seriously believe The Pilgrims Clan would be such strong advocators of the Council of Truth if every minority voice and/or voice for peace were silenced?

As if Omni-Tek is even one to bring up such a ludicrous thing. Omni-Tek is the one which is both un-democratic and silences employs who disagree with the company line. Otherwise perhaps you'd like to show me your democracy? Show us how you allow dissenting voices to be heard in the upper ranks of Omni HQ?

your propaganda stretches thinner and thinner. Thank you for showing your baseless lies to the public.

Ah, Sallust, Sallust. You say the word "democracy" as if it had some sort of magical properties. Democracy is just one of many forms of government humanity has tried, and it too has its flaws- corruption and indecision being the it's main faults. It's all too easy for politicians in a democracy to buy or sweet talk their way to the top. Democratic nations of the past have been just as callous and unjust against their ethnic minorities and in their foreign policy as absolute monarchies. So don't come and peddle your simplistic democractic=good undemocratic=evil views, because its not that simple, it never was.

Besides, I always found it odd how Clans how advocate democracy do not themselves have leaders who are elected with FIXED terms, some of them are positively feudal. Tell me Sallust, when is Shadowgod due for re-election?

Savoy

[Cogs]

I must say....Im disappointed to see the discussion go along the same ole rails.....every time. There is only one goal here, to the observer, and that is to pick each other apart no matter what the means..........sadly, I conclude that this is the reality we live with every day.....hence my previous post where I tried to paint the situation as bare as I could...I guess I still had silk on hands in my attempt.
As I see it, there is no real desire for peace, not from the Omni representatives here, and not from the Clans. I take exeption to mr. Crime, who I must say put forth some very valid and good posts, albeit not always in the name of peace.
To mr. Kithrak, I cannot say the same. A man, building his case on blatant lies and utter bullshaite (ref:

"By denying support to the possibility of peace, the Council of Truth is guranteeing an outcome of war."-Administrator Houston-

) cannot be respected. I would try some further investigations, mr. Kithrak. You go on with

The subject was the Council of Truth silencing anyone not in favor of a war. Stop trying to change the topic.

. More crap, unfounded.
The CoT is not silencing anyone.....we happen to have a majority of Sentinel supporters, yes...they favor a military solution, yes..but 50% or more favor other means, like for example debate.
You will never, I say this with some moderation, have fruitful peace talks and ultimately peace unless Omni-Tek as such come to fully recognize the clans, and respect and understand the very foundation upon which the Clans were built....namely those very same atrocities performed long ago, that you love to put down.
You all claim to be educated.....then it should be feasible for your brains to encompass the fact that whether these things happened long ago or yesterday, there is no satisfaction until the perpetrator recognizes his wrongs, and amends it fully. The details therein would have to be negotiated.
The Clans started out rebels, and will forever be rebels, due to the fact that Omni-Tek has never given us reason to trust anything they say......we stay rebels out of fear for what the corporation might do to us should we finally lay down arms.
It is a matter of trust....and honestly, so far Omni-Tek has given us no reason to trust them.
It is easy for you, mr. Kithrak, Savoy...miss Doureaussau........to debate with me for example....your minds function on logic and the way of the corporation....my mind is, I freely admit, fueled by passion and sentiment...I am suceptible to your arguments, but to me they carry no weight....as you are mere pawns in the grand scheme of Omni-Tek's long term plans.
I think however I can say this, and beleive it: I think we have one thing in common...we love this planet we live on, and the people we surround ourselves with.

I have said so before, and I will say so again....meet me....lets talk..lets see if we can get something productive going....if nothing else sit opposite each other with a cup of coffee, and perhaps sense that we are all wonderful beings......perhaps build from there.

[Cogs]

Addendum:
The Clans are not innocent of atrocities either, make no mistake. We have commited acts in the name of freedom that are de****cable to say the least. I am not blind to this.

[Kithraks]

Such language is unecessrary. The Council of Truth is indeed denying support to the possibility of peace and have continued to do so. The main point of my arguements have always been to show that the Clans have become worse oppressors in their fanatical crusade for freedom but, having to kill all non-Clanners first.

Be grateful that there are still people comitted to the cause of peace.

[Dabblez]

Originally posted by Cogs
I must say....Im disappointed to see the discussion go along the same ole rails.....every time. There is only one goal here, to the observer, and that is to pick each other apart no matter what the means..........sadly, I conclude that this is the reality we live with every day.....hence my previous post where I tried to paint the situation as bare as I could...I guess I still had silk on hands in my attempt.
As I see it, there is no real desire for peace, not from the Omni representatives here, and not from the Clans. I take exeption to mr. Crime, who I must say put forth some very valid and good posts, albeit not always in the name of peace.

That is just because you seem to want to concentrate on the occasional cheap shot and not some of the more constructive posts. Scroll back to my reply to you from the 28th, you'll see I am more interested in find ways forward towards a peaceful solution rather than slinging mud (and for my trouble I get accused of being in league with the Dust Brigade, go figure!)

You will never, I say this with some moderation, have fruitful peace talks and ultimately peace unless Omni-Tek as such come to fully recognize the clans, and respect and understand the very foundation upon which the Clans were built....namely those very same atrocities performed long ago, that you love to put down.
You all claim to be educated.....then it should be feasible for your brains to encompass the fact that whether these things happened long ago or yesterday, there is no satisfaction until the perpetrator recognizes his wrongs, and amends it fully. The details therein would have to be negotiated.

Well In all fairness, I would think that getting half a planet is plenty compensation for a few mining accidents 250 years ago. But this is exactly why we need to have this dialogue, so that we can better understand each other's needs.

To the average Omni employee, the incidents that lead to the original rebellion are ancient history. From our point of view, at this point in time, we are not even aware that we are still required to make amends for events occurred in our distant ancestor's days, let alone know what we are expected to do to make it better. It's like the husband who comes back home after work to a grouchy wife. When he asks "What's wrong?" she replies "Well if you don't know, there no point me explaining it to you!"

So I agree, let's sit down, let's talk, let's list down our specific grievances and see what
specific measures we can recommend to set things straight, finding a compromise on those areas were we can, setting aside those areas where we can't. I don't expect it will be easy and we will certainly have to be very patient with each other, but it's a start, a step in the right direction.

To those who say this group would have no authority to negotiate for either Clan or Omni-Tek I say you are correct. All we can do is take the results of the conversations and pass them on to those who do have power. Whether this will achieve anything or not is out of our hands, but at least we will know that we have done our best to ensure the future of this planet, can you say the same about yourself or is cynicism it’s own reward?

Shall we start talking dates? Maybe a Sunday in August (8th, 15th or 22nd) at 19:00 GMT at Reets Retreat? Possible get a Neutral to chair the meeting for us?

Savoy

[Cogs]

If I seem to be "slinging mud", it is solely because Im tired and frustrated. Frustrated, because I know the "cause" is old.....and I know it is unlikely that wars and hostilities will end soon.....
In addition, the Clans were not given anything.....what we have, we have basically fought for.
You say, miss Savoy, that it is hard for you and your people to understand the Clan fight, and why its origin is important. Then let me ask you....where do you come from? What is your history, and what governs what you are today? Your history is important, milady.....as is ours.....and as long as we go unrecognized, and the wrongs are not amended......; gah......Ill stop.....

To Kithrak......no.....such language is not uncalled for. You make assumptions based on ignorance and your own interpretations. You are not privvy to the Clan mind......but, instead make up slogans and campaigns as you see fit, based on what is suitable for your own PR campaign. I do not beleive you to be a champion of peace.....no, sir...you are a champion of your own devices, looking out for number 1. That is how I interpret you, Sir. I may of course be mistaken, and will accomodate for that. But, these slogans you put forth, and your hellbent attitude when it comes to put down any effort made by the Clans, leads me to beleive otherwise. I suggest you take a step back, and try to aquire information from a broader range than just the Clan war-mongers.


I would love to accomodate your dates, miss Savoy....but I will not be back on planet for another few weeks......I return to Rubi-Ka on the 9th of September, but am more than willing to sit down with you at any convenient time after that.

[Marisha]

Originally posted by Cogs
If I seem to be "slinging mud", it is solely because Im tired and frustrated. Frustrated, because I know the "cause" is old.....and I know it is unlikely that wars and hostilities will end soon.....

If you’re tired and frustrated, take a break, or quit. Pessimism and defeatism will not help your cause. And before anyone claims that I’m trying to silence you, again I point out that pessimism and defeatism will not help you in any political debate. If you set yourself up to fail, you will.

Originally posted by Cogs
In addition, the Clans were not given anything.....what we have, we have basically fought for.

29223: The Clans Rights treaty is signed.

29282: Rome is nominated as the future home of the post-lease democratic government. While you haven’t gotten it yet, we’ve built it for you already.

29448: Mutant extermination reward plan is announced, open to all residents of Rubi-Ka.

29452: Insurance technology is made available to all residents of Rubi-Ka.

29475: Amnesty is offered to the Clans, in the interest of seeing that the recent outbreak of violence did not threaten the stability of the current peace.

Nope, the clans were not given anything they didn't fight for.

Originally posted by Cogs
You say, miss Savoy, that it is hard for you and your people to understand the Clan fight, and why its origin is important. Then let me ask you....where do you come from? What is your history, and what governs what you are today?

I can show you the bones of the Durousseaus that came before me, the Kibbutzim and Madrassas they built, and the survival axe given to the first of our line to be decanted. I don’t think you believe that my ancestors’ accomplishments are less important because they received a paycheck for their efforts.

However, in the interest of moving this debate along, can we all agree to a one-week halt to the use of “you don’t know me/our mindset/our sacrifices/ our history” as a valid argument?

[Cogs]

If you’re tired and frustrated, take a break, or quit. Pessimism and defeatism will not help your cause. And before anyone claims that I’m trying to silence you, again I point out that pessimism and defeatism will not help you in any political debate. If you set yourself up to fail, you will.

Baloney.....did you see why I used those words? PRobably not....look again.

29223: The Clans Rights treaty is signed.

Had we not fought for it...it wouldnt be. Non-admissable.

29282: Rome is nominated as the future home of the post-lease democratic government. While you haven’t gotten it yet, we’ve built it for you already.

Thank you!

29452: Insurance technology is made available to all residents of Rubi-Ka.

By order of ICC, and not any goodwill wish on OT's part. Non-admissable

29475: Amnesty is offered to the Clans, in the interest of seeing that the recent outbreak of violence did not threaten the stability of the current peace.

An amnesty....*smiles* Well, this amnesty was viewed as an insult by most all clanners. By trying to shove this down over our heads, OT were trying to make Clanners en masse admit to being criminals. I never accepted the Amnesty or the grounds upon which it was attempted showed down our throats.

I can show you the bones of the Durousseaus that came before me, the Kibbutzim and Madrassas they built, and the survival axe given to the first of our line to be decanted. I don’t think you believe that my ancestors’ accomplishments are less important because they received a paycheck for their efforts.

Again....I never said that. Im asking, quite a simple question really, whether or not miss Savoy (or the lot of you) can grasp that just as you have your foundation, so do we.....one that you and your OT friends love to loathe, and simply refuse to see the significance of.
In addition, you continue with your word mincing, miss Doureasseau....you are quite good at that. I was attempting to lay that to rest.....and invite you for a talk...it seems you prefer to disregard that.
Choose what you will....I am still more than interested in a little pow-wow to talk about the situation....polemizing here seems to get us nowhere. Any debate on this feed ends inevitably up in word-mincing and attempts at belittling, only to fade away into oblivion...leaving us at status quo.
That, miss....is what Im frustrated and tired of.

[Kithraks]

Originally posted by Cogs
To Kithrak......no.....such language is not uncalled for. You make assumptions based on ignorance and your own interpretations. You are not privvy to the Clan mind......but, instead make up slogans and campaigns as you see fit, based on what is suitable for your own PR campaign. I do not beleive you to be a champion of peace.....no, sir...you are a champion of your own devices, looking out for number 1. That is how I interpret you, Sir. I may of course be mistaken, and will accomodate for that. But, these slogans you put forth, and your hellbent attitude when it comes to put down any effort made by the Clans, leads me to beleive otherwise. I suggest you take a step back, and try to aquire information from a broader range than just the Clan war-mongers.

So says the person making an assumption.

When was the last time the Clans openly tried to find a peaceful solution to the conflict? Of course I will continue to resist and fight against the efforts of the Clans to force a war upon Omni-Tek and the Neutrals, who else will watch out for the well being of all Rubi-Kan citizens and not just the Clans watching out for themselves? Omni-Tek that's who.

[Dabblez]

Cogs,

Given the long term nature of these issues, I am sure it will hold another month.

If there is to be any sort dialogue, patience will be our most important virtue and we mustn't allow the odd verbal jab or cheap shot to distract us. We all do it, we are all subjected to it, no one is entirely blameless.

For my views I have often been subjected to abuse from clanners and Omni extremists. I've been told I am anything from brainswashed zombie, to a decitful propagandist or a childish hippie tree-hugger, not to mention the odd death treat .

You can't let this stuff get to you. Stick to the issues, let the personal insults slide. It's the only way to make any progress.

Savoy