Clans Step Up Attacks On Omni-1

[joshuacrime]

I didn't miss what you were trying to say, just advanced a premise futher along. I don't like war, it's wasteful and it's evil. Too many lives have been spent over something that should have been settled a long, long time ago, and I'm all for it's end any time.

Negotiations are how you stop wars, I couldn't agree more. There are many things that OTRK and Clan can achieve with simple standard protocol-driven negotiations. It's also true that the Sentinels are a hard-line Clan bunch of yahoos that do little to advance the cause of peace. But then again, they don't exactly do much in the way of "offensive missions" these days, do they? No, they do not. Rhetoric is NOT action, but merely words. Their threats to date have been hollow, because I do not see them acting out on any of the genocidal threats they have made regarding Omni or Neutral people. I personally think that the Sentinels have a piece of Tir and they DEFEND it from Omni incursions. They don't go out looking for things to whack. Same goes for Omni guard forces. They don't actively go out looking for Clanners in their cities to kill.

However, and we've gone around in circles about this before and I guess we'll do it again, is that there are paradigm shifts that need to occur in OTRK before a real peace between Clan and Omni can be achieved. OTRK must understand that it cannot be the government of Rubi-Ka, and it doesn't matter what piece of paper was signed way back when giving OTRK the "contract" to exploit this planet (exploit in the business sense, not the cynical one). Too much has passed in that time, and OTRK made horrible errors in judgement that cost the lives of far too many of the citizens it was supposed to care for, and now that cost included the governance of this planet. I don't believe that any Clanner will ever agree to returning to the status quo ever again.

The people of Rubi-Ka must be allowed to govern themselves, and the corporation must work as a governed entity, and not as the governer. Until such time as that occurs, I doubt very seriously that you will find many Clan members wanting to lay out peace negotiations with a corporation that just wants us to make nice so it can go back to doing what it did before, unchecked and unanswerable to anything but their stockholders. The callous business mind might see that and say "oh yes, what a marvelous idea, more cognac please...", but the rest of us most assuredly do not.

Would OTRK be willing to stand down it's military in favor of one run by the government that is formed from the people of Rubi-Ka in whatever manner they decided to vote for? Probably not. It's certainly very possible, given the number of scumbag arms dealers on this planet and off of it as well. OTAF would be a marvelous trainer of troops, too. OTRK would of course be allowed to defend it's corporate property (not a 3rd of the bloody planet but where their factories, warehouses, etc are) but the people of RK would defend and govern themselves. I doubt very much that, even if YOU wished it, it would not happen, because OT doesn't work that way.

And I have to say that I even agreed with some points that Marisha made. We're all glad that you don't want to nuke the North until it glows. And we don't want to murder vast quantities of your population by much less glamourous but still effective and massively destructive methods. However, as for being in suits of any kind, I doubt very seriously you had been in one, or you would know just how amazingly ungainly, uncomfortable, unhygenic and inefficient life becomes for the basic necessities having to wear that stuff. Not to mention severely uneconomic.

As for the rest, well, we're back in "Omni Tek cheerleader/evangelist/drone" mode again. Seeing as how you don't manage the planet, we'll dispense with that one. You manage about a 3rd of it. You didn't use orbital weapons against a guerilla movement for the simple reason of economy of force. In simpler terms, the cure for dandruff is not decapitation, or you don't bring a nuclear weapon to a knife fight would actually be more apt. No, the reason you didn't do that was not because of your "humanity", it was because your military commanders are more prudent than that. And I'm quite certain that the reason that you didn't use the reclaim advantage against Clan is that you could not, or you would have. Most likely ICC hampered you in that regard, I would think. And pressing the advantage would have been EXACTLY what OTRK would have done if they could have gotten away with it. Only they could not, because there were CONSEQUENCES to that action, namely the loss of the big profit machine you were milking and still are milking. The galactic community would have, if you would have been guilty of the murder of everyone that opposed you for damn good reasons, removed you from this planet and caused your company to take serious losses, and THAT is the reason that OT didn't do it. Spare me the altruistic morality play. OT doesn't HAVE a moral side. Morality is a side benefit to making a buck to OT. Nice if you can get it in there, but it's not essential to profit.

[Marisha]

Originally posted by Joshua Crime
Spare me the altruistic morality play. OT doesn't HAVE a moral side.

I find it disheartening that your mindset is so limited that you believe the Corporation is bereft of morality. However, as a soldier, I realize that the first thing new recruits are trained is that their enemy is not human. It is much easier to kill someone who you believe to not be human. Denying that we may indeed have a moral center that guides our decisions is just another aspect of this training. Quite an effective one as well, because now you become justified in your struggle against an amoral entity.

[Dabblez]

You can make any claim about OT's morality you like, but pray show me in what way are the Clans any better?

Other than build their empire in the North raid, kill and prey on from every other sentient community on the planet, be it Omni, neutral, Rhinoman or Yuttos, what have the Clans done that is so great?

People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.

Now if we can just agree that we are all petty, greedy disgusting human beings, maybe we can move on and start looking at solutions and ways forward rather than jsut trading insults.

Savoy

[joshuacrime]

Ah yes, the plea for sanity when little is proffered in one's direction. Which is, of course, what the aggressor likes to say when they want the defender to stop defending itself. I find that...amusing.

Now, my mindset is never limited. It is, however, geared in a certain direction, and when you're trained as a killer, you think like a killer. Soldiers of every nation, state, city or what have you are inculated with a certain "mindset" towards their opponents, and the more mindless the soldier is to start with, the more they can see their opponents as things. That's not how I was trained when I was a small strapping young nanomage lad. I was trained to never underestimate your opponent, never give your opponent an even break and always respect your opponent as you go into battle with them.

Organizations that train their soldiers to kill "things" in battle are probably pretty good at training fight dogs too, because that is what they amount to. A TRUE soldier applies the force only that is necessary and when it is necessary, never harming innocents if at all possible and to always maintain his/her humanity in the process. That wacky German philosopher back on Earth said that you must have care when you gaze into the Abyss, because it will gaze back at you, and it's waaaaaaaaaaaaay more badass than you are.

It's the standard cop-out of the military in general, actually, because they can justify killing hundreds by saying to themselves that they've only destroyed an aircraft, or perhaps a submersible vehicle or what have you. In the end, though, the killing amounts to the same thing as the soldier that peers directly into the eyes of his foe and stabs him dead. Standing back from afar and ordering soldiers to do the same is tantamount to pulling the trigger yourself, only you don't have the nads to do it yourself.

It is not *I* who has this training, and I believe that we see more and more of it coming from Corporate Center than anywhere else. After all, I don't see Clan creating monstrosities as military troops. Can you say the same? Of course you can't. Trick question.

My glass house is polished nicely, thank you, Savoy. Since what has occured over the centuries that this little fracas of ours has gone on seems to continue to do so, MY side has eked out a life in a very harsh territory and brought up a militia to defend itself from the depredations of the Corporation that continues to stick it to us for DARING to defy it. The "empire" in the north is nothing of the kind, and it's indicative of the Omni way of thinking to classify it as such, since empire building is all that Omni does. Omni is not a corporation in the true sense of the word, it's a combination snack-pack religion, merchant, military and a big horde of locusts. And as for being "petty, greedy, disgusting human beings" as opposed to "peaceful indigenous life", I think we covered that topic before. We are not here arguing about how "all life is precious" and how "we are all here equal to each other". It's simply not true, and if we need to go back into the socioanthropology lessons, we could do that too, I suppose. That kind of extremism for ecological purposes is no better than what the Omni-Tek ethos is wherever it goes.

[Dabblez]

Time may have been hard on the Clans a centrury ago. Times were hard for the early Omni colonists. We've all been through hard times at one point or another . What does that prove?

The fact is the Clans upper classes of today run multi-billion credit mimning operations. They drive the latest sports vehicles, wear the latest Mirr fashions or priceless cerimonial armor. They offer millions of credits as prizes in fasion pageants, build castles and palaces like Camelot and Versailles, and live in luxury appartments in Jobe, I know this because most of my next door neighbors up in Jobe Plaza are Clan.

So don't come cry to me about the hardships of the Clans. Nobody beleives that line anymore. Have some pride.

Now I don't begrudge any of these to the Clans. I do begrudge Clans standing in judgement of Omni-Tek's morality, acting as if they are not doing all the same things we are.

Savoy

[Naefen]

It is true as Savoy says.
The hardships and wrongdoings many clanners claim they have endured were,infact, endured by theyre ancestors.
Opression ended long ago and the mistakes made back then have been costly lessons to us all. But we have learned from them.

And so, complaining as if it still was happening today is just another trick to keep the hostile activities running.

[joshuacrime]

OK, it is quite true that *I* am not suffering the fate that my ancestors did. Neither are you. Clan "warmongers" are not beating down your doors either. Most of us aren't biting and champing at the bit for blood these days.

No, the argument has nothing to do with "personal" losses, hardships and what have you. The last argument I refuted (well, 2 of them in one sitting, actually and melded them together) was about how OTRK is as an entity, and not it's historical details. The thing about today's situation is that OTRK has a massive army, police state and greedy corporation still doing what it has always done, with little compunction to what it defiles, spoils and tarnishes in the process.

The other argument was that "Clan is no better than OTRK", which I find quite simplistic in its basis and completely baseless given current happenings on-planet as well as off (haunch of Unicorn? mmmm thank you, quite tasty). Clan isn't anything LIKE OTRK, so how may you make such an assessment? Are you saying that the Clan are an amalgam of huge bureaucracies that seek profit at the cost of anything that gets in it's way? No. I think not. Are you saying that the "rich Clanners" that build paltry little places like Avalon or that festering little eyesore down around Omni way that must drive you all batty as you fly by it has any possible comparison to the massive constructions that I see plastering the landscape to the south? No, I don't think so, either. We're not even remotely close to being like each other, so I don't think that such an explanation is even remotely accurate nor useful to the current debate (my opinion, of course).

No, the hardships of today are different than the hardships of yesterday, and they bear little resemblance to our history, but then again, they haven't advanced very far except by what the Clan has been able to do to counter what OTRK would LIKE to do if they had no opposition. Which would be, in essence, to run this planet into the ground, take everything that is useful to you make your Omni-Tek coffee makers, refrigeration units, guns and ammo and just about everything else that your factories conjure and then bug off into space in search of the next cornfield that your insect plague can harvest. I am willing to bet that, like most pioneer types in hostile land, Clan would eke out a very nice, civilized way of life on this planet, except that we cannot, because to the south lies the festering chemical polluted dumps like Omni-Ent (oh, don't even mention Rome, what a Potemkin village that is) and it's outland scourge factory vacuum sumpsucking wasteland areas that Omni claims for it's domain.

And Clan gets blamed for being "ecologically unsound"? I have to stand back in awe of that statement.

[Dabblez]

I see, the terms of the argument have now changed.

Its no longer about Omni oppressing Clan (even if Omni desired to oppress Clan it should be obvious we don't have the power to do so).

Nor is it the hardships the Clan have to endure (we agree Clan standard of living is equal if not better than Omni on Rubi-Ka).

No, it all about the environment.

Omni are despoiling the environment on Rubi-Ka.

I see.

You do realise that it Omni-Tek machinery that is constantly pumping air into the terraformed zones and making it habitable? Rubi-Ka may appear to you as a living breathing planet, but it is really is just a lifeless lump of rock keep alive by artificial means.

I'd say OT is doing plenty for the environment!


Savoy

[Marisha]

Originally posted by Joshua Crime
After all, I don't see Clan creating monstrosities as military troops. Can you say the same? Of course you can't.

You got me curious now. Lets start comparing monsters.

I’ll raise with High Commander Fisk of the Sentinels. I think he fits the description of military troop trained by clans.

[joshuacrime]

Savoy:

OT is responsible for the terraforming of this planet, no question about it. And for that nice little act of "kindness" (as you seem to be thinking it was), it began the multiple centuries-long quest to bring pioneers upon this planet, set roots down, build a home and live peacefully and tranquilly with the local flora and fauna.



Marisha:

I'll double dog dare raise you The Notum Soldier, The Fire Soldier, The Diamondine Soldier, the things that survived after being mutated to help speed up terraforming and terrorize us every time we go for a walk in the woods, the mutants (you created em, we freed em, who's the bigger schmuck). Do you want me to go on, or can we dispense with the calling of a fellow human being a monster simply because you were at war with him once, and you didn't like what he did. Right, as opposed to all of these things, these creatures, these abominations that serve as your soldiers or were left behind to menace those that come near them. Yeah...monsters. I am thinking, you need to start looking away from the North when you seek MONSTERS and look back down the other side of the compass needle.

[Kithraks]

The Clans created the Cyborgs in a failed attempt to develop a weapons system against the Neutral and Omni-Tek citizens. Are we done with the finger pointing yet? This is not helping solve any problems.

Help those of us interested in building a stable future for Rubi-Ka.

[Marisha]

Originally posted by Joshua Crime
I'll double dog dare raise you The Notum Soldier, The Fire Soldier, The Diamondine Soldier, the things that survived after being mutated to help speed up terraforming and terrorize us every time we go for a walk in the woods, the mutants (you created em, we freed em, who's the bigger schmuck). Do you want me to go on, or can we dispense with the calling of a fellow human being a monster simply because you were at war with him once, and you didn't like what he did.

The three soldiers you just mentioned… How are they not human again? Because, it seems to me that you just did what you criticized me for. Also, I don’t think of Fisk as a monster because I any conflict I’ve had with him personally. I think he’s a monster because of his desire to exterminate the Neutral population of Rubi-Ka. Again, due to my moral frame of reference, that makes him monstrous in my eyes.

As for the Mutants, I believe that both sides bear the responsibility. Yes, we did perform genetic alterations. So have the clans. Look at the late Black Clan for an example of clan genetic engineering. The Eco-Warriors claim to have introduced the Rhino-men to Rubi-ka. As for the mutants in the woods, again, there is probably just as much responsibility with Terra Firma as with Omni-Med, or at least the most recent outbreak of mutant activity.

[Naefen]

Very well said Marisha.
Much that has gone awry on this planet is the fault of more than just one factor.
We must divide the blame amongst us equally for the past and start looking forward.

[Carmalator]

You all seem to take this role playing seriously yet, all you do is say omni sucks, clan sucks. Try and do more usefull things then that, don't be another dick with no balls.

[kranden]

Kranden ducks behind a wall as gunsaber Runs up the alley way. Kranden darts out thowing a root onto his adversary and takes cover as he sees more Omni-tek Soldiers join the fray. "These guards are pathetic, figures omni-scum would have their own citizens expected to protect their towns."

[joshuacrime]

My God, woman, just look at them! Look at what they can do, look at how they do it and what they ARE, and come back and tell me that they are human beings in the way that you and I are. They are not. Not even bloody close, come to think of it. No, they are soldiers grown in a lab like some petri dish bacteria culture and sent out to guard an installation. How anyone could look a rational, intelligent person in the eye and say such things is simply amazing, and I don't exactly know how to respond.

And I hear about the Black Clan in response, but honestly, there weren't many of them, and they were MADE with a weakness to prevent their overrunning the planet. Failsafes for your monsters are necessary until proper control can be made of them. I cannot say that CLAN was responsible for the creation of the Black Clan, nor the Cyborgs (if you can say at all the Clan was completely responsible for their creation and subsequent swath of destruction). A certain faction of Clan was perhaps responsible. Not CLAN. I can guarentee you that I would not associate with a Clan organization that willfully creates such horrors, nor would I ever agree to their creation had there been a motion chaired to begin such a project. You see, I have ETHICS, and the VAST majority of Clanners do also. I cannot say the same for OT. You all love the fact that your monsters are out there. You tout them when you want to show the strength and accomplishments of the corporation.

You are PROUD of them. I am not. I find them to be disgusting abominations that should never have seen the light of day. And that goes for Cyborgs, mutants, those THINGS you bred, and anything else that has been genetically tampered with with the sole intent of becoming a mindless, robotic killer. That included human soldiers as well. You can create MACHINES, I have no problems with that. But these biological Rube Goldberg nightmares I do have big issues with.

So, anyway...we are off the beaten path aren't we. It's a shame I have to veer away so far to cull the nonsense coming from The Church of the Unapologetic Robots.

So, last defense of that particular statement.

[Dabblez]

You see, I have ETHICS, and the VAST majority of Clanners do also.

That is just your opinion. I have yet to see visible signs of this vast majority of ethical clanners. Fair enough, I am Omni, I am the enemy. Everything Clan do to me is justified by history. But ask an impartial observer. Ask the neutral, the rhinomen or the Yuttos. Are Clan any more ethical than Omni or are you just kidding yourself Mr Crime?

Savoy

[Xhairs]

Joshua, now you are rambling and throwing out accusations without thinking about what you are saying. Or at least it sounds that way to me.

And Omni-tek is so proud of the creatures running around out there that we even put out a bounty on them all, a bounty that is valid to all sides even today, with Omni-Clan relations being as they are. Or did you think that Rollerrats did carry around a few Creds in hidden pockets? Leets maybe, we all know how they are about shining objects, but not Rollerrats.

[joshuacrime]

...making it personal. You do goad me into replies when you do that, you do realize that of course.

No, I do not ramble at all. The statements I was making were based upon Savoy's mention of how the things that Omni made were so beneficial and helpful in helping to terraform this planet. Only you didn't do anything about them after you put them out there. Just let them go on their merry ways.

The mutants, well...interesting subject, that. Dangerous to lower echelon soldiers, perhaps. Certainly not to the top ranking people of the planet. But you created them. Sorry. You took ordinary human beings, and I'm sure most of them were not even close to being willing subjects, and turned them into THINGS. You took your own soldiers, probably willingly in this case, and turned them into the Notum Soldier and the other things I mentioned previously. And they are NOT human, despite what gets said about them. They are THINGS. The eremites are my favorite example. Created in part to have a subterranean method of moving and churning topsoil and other organic material, I cannot tell you how many times as a fighter that I got chased halfway across a zone by those damn things, and sometimes in very large numbers. It is true that Clan was responsible for some of their own dastardly deeds, no denying that whatsoever. However, we are willing to own up about it. The Black Clan was a mistake, but in all fairness, I think you can call it a reactionary move. The Cyborgs? Someone totally blames Clan for that one. Neat-o.

Since it's quite clear that you all stand up and point to those THINGS as accomplishments (even though you claim to distance yourselves from them NOW), my statements stand as far as I am concerned. And we are TOTALLY off the beaten path now. This thread goes into the Clan attacks into Omni-1, and quite frankly, it's boring. We're at war. Yadda yadda yadda.

NEWSFLASH: Omni troopers come back from a tower battle, criminally flagged, and seek out victims to gang up on in Clan cities and "gank" as the popular vernacular goes. I've witnessed it so many times I don't even think about it. Is it newsworthy? Not to me, it isn't. Your news organization is REALLY thin for the whole premise of this story, and now, I don't care about it. Maybe it makes the Omni's all feel better and more justified at the morning breakfast table to read such ludicrous propaganda, but I see nothing even newsworthy about it.

[Xhairs]

My apologies if you took it as an attack on your person. I revoke the statement about rambling, but i still say it is a bit... Hectic? You type out your wishes to prove your point so fast and rash that it´s like getting a bucket of water over you. First you get chocked, then you go "WTF?" and just skip what you are saying in favour of a knee jerk response. I read through your statements several times, and even though i know how you act, even i thought that one was a bit more hectic than usual.

And as for your last post, lo and behold, we can at least agree to one thing. The larger part of the Omni-Tek press corps is a steaming pile of dung.