The CoT, Omni in disguise?

[BigGreen]

Originally posted by Aerinyi




The fact is, the concerns and viewpoints of non-members is important to the council, and we'd like to take them into account when making decisions. Is it too much to ask for you to present your views in a manner other than storming meetings and all shouting at us at once? I think not.

Fair enough point Aeryini, but I would just like to clarify that by "you" in the above quote you're assuming that I or my representatives were shouting or speaking out of turn, which was not the case. We didn't storm the meeting, we attended and left. As for Arion, since I wasn't there I can't comment. But I do believe that dissent is vital and "Disruptions are NOT ALLOWED" strikes me very much as the "SILENCE" placard in Omni Ent. We are Clan, we speak our minds! It can be done in constructive ways, or not of course.

[Aerinyi]

I apologize for the ambiguity Biggreen, the "you" was directed at critics of the vote in general, many of whom did in fact opt to disrupt the meeting and refuse to consider the opposite viewpoint. To be fair, I'm not aware of any disruptive behavior on the part of Rising Phoenix.

As for your comment about "SILENCE", I can only direct you to my previous post. It simply is not true that the council seeks to silence the views of non-members. In fact, in my own view to attempt to lead those who did not attend the meeting to believe that they have no avenues of communication with the council borders on outright deception. It's ironic, really... those who shout the loudest about "action, not words and politics" are those who seek to waste our time in shouting matches and attempt to obscure the truth by painting a misleading picture of this weekend's events.

[Mire]

(OOCly this is a post from my clan alt and only from him)

Dr. Chong "Huurr" Suitt sits in his office reading over his grid feed, disillusioned and confused over the recent reformation of the Council of Truth and the immediate vote following the affiliation process to hold future meetings behind closed doors. With a disgusted sigh his mind is wrapped in old memories of some of the same people who at one time argued for the removal of the Council of Truth because of their secretive ways and lack of any trust. As the doctor stares at his monitor a truth comes to his mind, and he begins to write.

To those who are members of the Council of Truth, I wish for you to heed the words of the respectable representatives of the clan Arion. It was not so long ago that many here who are now part of the new Council of Truth held the same feelings and thoughts of the old established and recognized Council of Truth. Many here in the past and rose up in voice to demand to be herd, to be allowed a voice, and demanded to know what went on with in the halls of the Council of Truth.

As a member of the clans, it is disheartening that the new members and representatives of the Council of Truth have not learned of the past mistakes of the old one. Instead you follow down the same path of the old Council of Truth to bar the doors from the common clansman. This one action alone has reaffirmed the fact that politicians are all the same to the common clansman. With displays such as the heavy handedness from one of the more staunch military clans known with such statements in his previous comments gives even more credence to the train of thought that politicians are not to be trusted or believed.

Although a disruptive session is never a good thing, I would have thought that the new representatives of the Council of Truth would have set up parameters of future sessions before they acted out their first vote. Alas, that was not the case, and yet you the members of the new Council of Truth have a hard time wondering why the common clansman or those who seem to be thinking of the common clansman think that way?

You can offer up recorded documents or transcripts of future sessions, but you must always remember, we men, women and atrox of the clans do not trust easily, and know from previous experience that documents and transcripts can always be edited and screened before they are released. You have not started off the new age of the Council of Truth in a way that shows us you are no different then the old.

Respectfully,
Dr. Suitt
A common clansman.

[Vixentrox]

Well, if you belive that 20+ Clans will tamper with a public meeting log when we are split up into different political camps, you are indeed a huge conspiracy theorist. The previous CoT had much fewer participants and largely kept silent most of the time. As can be seen by the numerous postings here and on the CoT gridsite, we are hardly the same bunch of silent people.

[Mire]

Dear Madam Representative,

It is not out of conspiracy or any of the kind of that type of thought that I used to address my concerns. I address the concerns based on fact and fact alone.

As of today all any of we common clansman have seen is the first act of the new Council of Truth. As of today all any of we common clansman have seen of the first session of the council is a press release from the clerical staff. I have searched the councils grid feed site and have yet to see the entire transcript of the first session. Just the results, so you see, it is not conspiracy that I base my opinion or thoughts on it is lack of information that so far you have promised but not produced.

I am an open minded individual, but when one of the clerical staff members and a representative, states that full disclosure of the transcripts of the sessions held by the Council of Truth will be available, yet only has produced a press statement.

I will wait to be shown that the new Council of Truth is different than the old. I am one who wishes for it to be that way, but so far, I have seen the same tactics used, the same heavy handed words used and the same actions taken from the new Council as I saw from the old one.

Respectfully,
Dr. Suitt
A common clansman

[Aerinyi]

Originally posted by Mire
Although a disruptive session is never a good thing, I would have thought that the new representatives of the Council of Truth would have set up parameters of future sessions before they acted out their first vote. Alas, that was not the case, and yet you the members of the new Council of Truth have a hard time wondering why the common clansman or those who seem to be thinking of the common clansman think that way?

You can offer up recorded documents or transcripts of future sessions, but you must always remember, we men, women and atrox of the clans do not trust easily, and know from previous experience that documents and transcripts can always be edited and screened before they are released. You have not started off the new age of the Council of Truth in a way that shows us you are no different then the old.

Respectfully,
Dr. Suitt
A common clansman.

How would such session parameters be set up? That's right.... in a meeting. A meeting which proved to be non-viable without barring observers. That's the simple, pragmatic fact of the matter; at this time we can either allow observers and get nothing done, or bar them and get something done. The clans have had ample time to gather in crowds and shout at each other. If this had a chance of paying off, it would have by now. The time for standing in crowds shouting and claiming to take action is past, long past. The time to actually get things done is now, and until we are able to devise a way to please everyone (a goal which will probably never be realized) it is our responsibility to our people to make sure that we are able to get things done without having our efforts thwarted before they begin by well meaning but misguided citizens. Our responsibility is to look out for the clans, not to cater to mob rule.

Frankly, the prospect of 20 or more clans all agreeing to a conspiracy like what you propose is just silly. Particularly when some of the most outspoken opponents of the closed meeting format actually have seats on the council. It is a preposterous notion, and I trust the common folk of the clans to recognize that.

[Aerinyi]

Originally posted by Mire
I am an open minded individual, but when one of the clerical staff members and a representative, states that full disclosure of the transcripts of the sessions held by the Council of Truth will be available, yet only has produced a press statement.

That is because we have not held a meeting yet since it was decided to hold closed meetings. Of course no more information has been produced, there is no more information. The one meeting that we have had was had with observers present.

[Jynne]

This is just too... ironic... for me not to comment on.

I think the new council will have just as much of a credibility problem as the old council. Probably more of one. This has nothing to do with registration fees (a million credits is chump change anyway), but it has everything to do with the attitudes, history, and behavior of many of the "key figures" in the council's reformation.

It's very disappointing to come here and see statements from council staff about what will and will not be tolerated, what will or will not be allowed, and how everyone must respect them... or else.

If the new council is not going to serve the clans, don't expect the clans to heed the council. And when you start your first sessions by deciding that the meetings are not, in fact, going to be open to any Clan that wishes to send a representative... and back this with demands that the people show you proper respect... I see history repeating itself. I see the old council, not a new one.

Respect is something you earn, not demand. If a clan's representative is being disruptive, they are reflecting poorly on their clanmates and themselves. Not on the council. But if the council responds... nay, retaliates... by closing its doors and lashing out at the clans, while simultaneously demanding that people respect them... that reflects poorly on the council, and makes the disruptive clans look like they have a very valid point.

[edit]
There are in fact ways to hold structured debates, such as 15-minute time limits on speakers with 5 or 10 minute limits on Q&A sessions. Requiring that people submit requests for time in advance of the meeting will allow for scheduling so that meetings don't overrun and use more time than they have to.

Such a meeting is difficult to disrupt if the staff simply holds to the rules and ejects or blanks the comms of a disruptive delegate. [OOC: have an ark warp them out or just have everyone put them on /ignore].

But instead the council shuts its doors and lashes out at the public.
[/edit]

[Fixerben]

Yes Theed, I do understand what you are doing and why, but I am also saying that there are more correct avenues to accomplish your goal instead of shouting out loud at a meeting. Learn the current issues, discuss them with the other representatives so they will see your point of view and vote in your favor. I forget what the term is for someone who does that, but thats the correct way to do it in a Democracy. Not throwing a hissy fit at a public meeting, I'd say that Arion lost more face than they had to start with by doing that.

Cliche for this post: Words of anger are less likely to be listened to than a calm understanding voice.

[Fixerben]

Originally posted by Jynne
This is just too... ironic... for me not to comment on.

I think the new council will have just as much of a credibility problem as the old council. Probably more of one. This has nothing to do with registration fees (a million credits is chump change anyway), but it has everything to do with the attitudes, history, and behavior of many of the "key figures" in the council's reformation.

It's very disappointing to come here and see statements from council staff about what will and will not be tolerated, what will or will not be allowed, and how everyone must respect them... or else.

If the new council is not going to serve the clans, don't expect the clans to heed the council. And when you start your first sessions by deciding that the meetings are not, in fact, going to be open to any Clan that wishes to send a representative... and back this with demands that the people show you proper respect... I see history repeating itself. I see the old council, not a new one.

Respect is something you earn, not demand. If a clan's representative is being disruptive, they are reflecting poorly on their clanmates and themselves. Not on the council. But if the council responds... nay, retaliates... by closing its doors and lashing out at the clans, while simultaneously demanding that people respect them... that reflects poorly on the council, and makes the disruptive clans look like they have a very valid point.

Jynne if you reread the post more carefully you will see that he wasnt saying to respect the CoT staff, he was saying that they were disrespecting themselves, their clan, and whoever was the current speaker, not necessarily a CoT Clerical Staff member. Its just like in school when your teacher asks you not to speak when she is, because its disrespectful to everyone around you who is trying to listen, and to the teacher herself, as well as making yourself look like an ass.

Disruptions are NOT ALLOWED. Such actions would be a lack of respect to other representatives, the Clerical Council and the Speaker.

As you can clearly see he did not only demand personal respect but also respect for everyone else present in the room. Himself, Staff members, other Reps, and anyone that just happens to be trying to listen.

[Mire]

Dear Madam Representative,

You have yet to post the transcript of the open session, how do you expect a common clansman to believe that the closed ones will be posted?

Respectfully,
Dr. Suitt
A common clansman

[Jynne]

Perhaps Ben, but the tone I took it in is the tone in which it was written. Meaning is conveyed in more ways than the literal parsing of words, afterall, and from the tone and composition of that statement it seems that the words were written in a demanding, and angry, manner. That changes their meaning.

Furthermore... the analogy isn't exact (though what analogy is?). Teachers aren't self-appointed, they have some sort of credential - a teaching certificate, a degree - that lends them credibility for instruction. They have an education and training that puts them into a respectable position. If someone with no special expertise were to start calling themselves "Professor Bob" would you assign them the respect due a true professor?

The new COT has no such thing. They need to build credibility, and earn respect. They can't assume it, whatever they wish to call themselves. Simply calling themselves the Council, does not make them more respectable than any other group of people.

This is, of course, interpretation. My guild is not involved, and probably will not be getting involved. But a large part of the reason we won't be getting involved, is because of this situation. If the Council decides to serve the Clans instead of the egos of a few politicians, we will reconsider. But I don't think there is much chance of that.

[Cogs]

I think miss Jynne Suitt advocates some valid concerns. Furthermore, there seems to be some misunderstanding on the part of several debatants here....perhaps including those on the Clerical Staff itself.
The Clerical Staff holds no power. This must be clearly understood! The CoT are for the Clans, and for you of the Clans to shape in the time to come. It is, for example, perfectly suitable to motion for a vote on whether or not the meetings shall be public or closed at a later date. It is in the power of the Clans to do this, as you are the ones defining how the CoT will work.
There is a period initially, in any given new democratic body, where one has to define the modus operandi. The CoT is in such a phase now! Instead of being overly critical, try to remember that your actions now will most probably govern whether or not we will have a CoT in the future. I ask you....no....I urge you to adopt a more open minded stance, and work the changes that you want into the CoT as we go. The CoT is a child as of today, we must be the responsible parents to nurse and bring it up in a manner that will one day make us all proud of it.
Yes, perhaps an error or two was made initially, but......my dear friends, it is in your power to change all this.
Take the CoT.....and make it work for you! Let it become a bustling hall of exchange, a place where problems are solved.

I see one challenge, and to me it is a major one: How to make the man/woman in the street feel that they are a part of this also. It is not easy, and is probably not so much up to the CoT as such, but more up to the individual clans that make up the CoT. Each individual Clan must make sure that their members are informed, and are allowed to take part in the discussions on the matters that their representatives bring to the Council.

And...to the other miss Suitt....you keep asking for the logs. Well..I could send you a transcript, but the only valid information to escape that first meeting, was the Clan affiliation vote, and the vote on whether or not the meetings should be open or closed.

Long live the Clans and the CoT!

[__________________23]

Upon instruction from Shespy I wish to point out that Clan Arion agrees with many of the posts here concerning the need for an open Council of Truth. Clan Arion continues to advocate that the CoT should be open to the people. Only where it is shown that there are no less restrictive means available in order to preserve the functioning of the CoT should any thought be given to the closure of the CoT to anyone.

Furthermore, Clan Arion wishes to reiterate that we stand for cooperation. However, we strongly urge that cooperation and dissent may go hand in hand. On this point, Arion also endorses the views posted here criticizing the current entry requirements at the CoT. The CoT is more than a franchise and should be able to supercede needless formalism.

Theed

[Fixerben]

In my humble oppinion the amount of work, patience, and dedication they have had to bring such an undertaking to fruition is more than enough to warrant some type of respect. Not to mention that most of the people on the Clerical staff have long histories with the Clans themselves, and I personally respect most of them due to that fact. But then people come and try to be glory hogs, shouting that their way is the best etcetera. Then others will come along and try to discredit the people that have tried so hard for such an effort.

To the CoT Clerical Staff, this is your child, dont let anyone tell you how to raise it. Accept constructive criticism, but dont let whiners and wannabes steer you from your path.

(Dont read too deeply into this, I'm not calling anyone specifically a whiner or wanna be, you will prove what you are yourself I dont have to do it for you.)

Also, Had some of the people that have concerns now gotten involved earlier you wouldnt have all these issues. Had you taken the time to read the CoT Gridsite ahead of time you would have known exactly what was going on, and have been prepared, and maybe even have had some input on how things go. Its your own fault that your getting involved this late in the game and dont like how it it. All of this horse s**t about 1mill credits is an outrage and bull like that, get over it. Every government needs funding, and 1mill is chump change, Infact if its that big of a deal I'll pay for any Clan that wants to join, for 1 year of membership. Send me a /tell and I'll give your Rep the 1mill credits.

Now it is your turn to get involved and make a difference, but you must do it correctly and politically. The time to yell like a child is over, learn, grow, and help the CoT help you.

[BigGreen]

Originally posted by Cogs
II see one challenge, and to me it is a major one: How to make the man/woman in the street feel that they are a part of this also. It is not easy, and is probably not so much up to the CoT as such, but more up to the individual clans that make up the CoT. Each individual Clan must make sure that their members are informed, and are allowed to take part in the discussions on the matters that their representatives bring to the Council.

And...to the other miss Suitt....you keep asking for the logs. Well..I could send you a transcript, but the only valid information to escape that first meeting, was the Clan affiliation vote, and the vote on whether or not the meetings should be open or closed.

Long live the Clans and the CoT!

There are things that can easily be done to accomplish boosting confidence in the new CoT, so that the average clanner believes it is representative of them:

1) Clanners are Clanners for a reason. they do not like to be told what to do, what to wear, what to say or when to say it. That is part of what we all fight for. Yet already we have had discussions about who can say what when, how much it will cost them to have a say, and (in an earlier meeting) what uniform to wear.
2) Openness and dissent must not be tolerated, it must be embraced. What makes us different from Omni otherwise? Are we a democracy or no? I submit to you the example of the House of Lords in the old UK as an example of an unruly body where work still gets done. It's possible. But it means open meetings, toleration of "disruptions", posting logs of the meetings, and willingness to take the time needed to hear all points of view. Democracy is messy, it's slow, and it can be terribly tedious. But there's nothing else better.
3) Membership to the CoT cannot be a membership to a country club. If you are Clan and in a clan, your organization should have the right to join.

Rising Phoenix is in the process of voting on joining the CoT. On the one hand, how can you criticze an organization you refuse to make better? On the other hand, can we lend our name to an organization that so far appears to prize secrecy and decorum over openness and free exchanges?

[Cogs]

Rising Phoenix is in the process of voting on joining the CoT. On the one hand, how can you criticze an organization you refuse to make better? On the other hand, can we lend our name to an organization that so far appears to prize secrecy and decorum over openness and free exchanges?

Partially the point of my post, Big. My advice would be to join up, and work for a CoT that suits you. Take an active part, instead of lashing out......take these things that you hold important values with you into the halls of the CoT, and make it what it is; Your tool for a better future!
I say again....the CoT will and shall not be the toy of the Clerical Staff..that was *never* the intention...it is yours......for and of the Clans. But, and this is also important...someone *has* to facilitate until such a time as the CoT works on its own foundation, my friend.

Long live the Clans and the CoT!

[Szentasha]

Originally posted by Cogs
And...to the other miss Suitt....you keep asking for the logs. Well..I could send you a transcript, but the only valid information to escape that first meeting, was the Clan affiliation vote, and the vote on whether or not the meetings should be open or closed.

I believe that each clan that joined the CoT was allowed to make a brief statement when they voted. It might be of interest to people to see the positions of the various member clans.

[Mire]

Respectfully Mr. McDuff

I wish you would use the tools necessary to do your research, although I am a great admirer of the female body I am most certainly a male. (ooc thus why I posted the notice this was posted as my clan alt which is a male)

First, I posted my concerns in a respectful manner, unlike some of those who have responded to my concerns or those before whose statements I was addressing.

Secondly, I must concur with BigGreen, on how unruly bodies can still get things done. It seems that the new Council or is it the Clerical staff, since those are mostly the ones giving responses want the easy and soft way out.

I would like to tell all those who worked on getting the Council of Truth to where it is at this point that many common clansmen are grateful for your efforts regardless of their opinions or views on how you have so far conducted yourselves.

I would also like to state, that as a clansman, a common one at that, I would suggest you reread my first initial posting. It was a warning from an aged old man who has seen the rise and the fall of the first Council of Truth and witnessed those who helped bring its hypocrisy down. Nothing more, nothing less, yet I was called a conspiracy theorist. Is this how the new council will address the concerns of the common clansman? If what they do hear from the regular clansman they do not like they will wave it off as conspiracy? I would hope not.

You the memebers of the new council should know that what you do, what decisions you make, what votes you cast will not only affect you and the clans who make up the council but all of the clansmen, affiliated or not. You say go to war, we go to war, you say peace we say peace. In order for the new council to actually have the ability to point the clans in a new direction what ever the direction is you must first win the respect and the following of not just those who pay the one million credits to join, but regular common clansman. If you are so blind to believe that what votes you cast we will sit by and sit silent you my good council members and clerical staff are dearly mistaken.

You choose to fight the good fight and accomplished something many would have believed impossible, do not I urge you, destroy or for a lesser degree hamper your new found ability to unite all of the clansmen in to one voice, one free voice, one democracy.

There will be many challenges to the new council, this no one doubts, but do not try to beat down the challenges from your own kind, instead embrace them, and follow through on your promise.

Mr. McDuff, if you will forward to not just me, but to each and every clansman the transcript of the first session I would be most thankful, but, it would be a lot easier and a lot cost effective for you to do as one of your colleges have said they would do and post the unedited total version of the transcript on the official Council of Truth gridsite.

Respectfully,
Dr. Suitt
Common Clansman

[Aerinyi]

I do think the failure to keep an official log of the last meeting is a very reasonable and valid criticism. I'm glad you've brought it to our attention, and I'm glad that unofficial logs have been kept so that we can rectify the situation. However, I think we should keep things in perspective. This past meeting was a public meeting; all clan citizens were welcome to attend. While to keep an official log for those who were not present would have been a good thing and perhaps should have been considered, our failure to do so has nothing whatsoever to do with some kind of hidden agenda or desire for secrecy. That much should be plain to see by the fact that observers were present for the meeting.