Shadowland

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by KKrylon
Too bad I can't IP reset the time that I took to read this post.

Hehe, u can't find any better comment than this in this thread

Originally posted by GoldBlock
Buuhuu to u all that dont want buy it, and want the advantages.. And buuhuu to all the 12 years kids, that cant get mommy to pay for the expansion

I have the money to pay for the expansion, but bla,bla,bla its unfair, so i think it dont want to buy it...lol

What kind of comment is this? They are changing a vital part of AO and only the ones that's paying for it can get the advantages. I think it's ok to pay for new breeds, professions, items, playfields but not the fundamental gamemechanics.

When they are changing the gamemechanics you are kind of forced to pay for it, lets say they are changing how many IP points you get each level, the specialization in a skill is the same thing, your will have better knowledge than other players even you have the same breed and profession - that isn't logical.

Originally posted by Thugdoom
Not living in a world. Paying to play a game.

For instance. Cars have different options. If you pay for the basic model of a car you don't get the options. Is it fair for a person that paid more for the car to have options that i don't have because i didn't pay as much.

YES IT IS

Its called capitalism. welcome to the planet

What I said, we are living in the same world - also Rubi-Ka. I agree with u there, but I don't agree with you about the gamemechanics.

Lets say, you choose one breed and a specific profession in Shadowland. The normal AO player choose the same breed and profession as you. You have the same breed, profession and all but still are superior of the old AO player - why should it be like this? The skillsystem is your intelligence and your knowlegde.

I really don't get it, why should a Shadowland Player be more intelligent than and normal AO Player? The skillsystem is the character intelligence and an expansion pack shouldn't change this mechanic - everyone should be able to be equal at level 200 if they are the same breed and profession, regardless of what they have paid - items should make the difference and how they balance their IP Points.

Lets say next Expansion Pack will give players 10k more IP points each level, huh? If you think this should be implemented, please go back to kindergarten will you, AO and logical thinking is too advanced...
Same gamemechanic change will happen with Shadowland if they don't implement this in normal AO too...



Knowledge should be dependent on the profession, not what kind of Expansion Pack they have running. Knowlegde/skillsystem is the foundation of the game, without this it wouldn't be any AO.

[______________Barron]

Krabbus, since this is your first MMORPG, you havent ever had to experience the other games that have expansions, so honestly you have no clue how the MMORPG industry works.

Expansions, by definition, add content and enhance the gameplay experience...it's part of the industry..

Like we've said, if you're so dead set against it, dont buy it...a good number of us will, and will have access to all the new, cool things they introduce.

Heck, even StarWars Galaxies has already planned their first expansion, and beta hasnt even started on that one yet...

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by Barron
Krabbus, since this is your first MMORPG, you havent ever had to experience the other games that have expansions, so honestly you have no clue how the MMORPG industry works.

Just thinking in a logical way, that's it... If this wasn't how the MMORPG industry works, would you agree with me then?

Like we've said, if you're so dead set against it, dont buy it...a good number of us will, and will have access to all the new, cool things they introduce.

I have to buy it since they are changing the gamemechanics and how my profession will be compared to others - if they didn't change the gamemechanics like this I would have a choice, but not now.



Can we please have an offical response to how Shadowland will affect the gamemechanics, please Cosmik or Cz????

[BoomDoom]

Originally posted by Krabbus
Just thinking in a logical way, that's it... If this wasn't how the MMORPG industry works, would you agree with me then?????
[/B]

YOu are thinking any way but logical. What you're saying is that you want Funcom to go through the expense of expanding content and material in the game and then not reap any benefits (sales of the expansion pack) for their efforts. You completely defy logic. If you don't pay for a benefit why would you be entitled to it? If Funcom spends 6 months developing new items, specializations, and areas what exactly entitles you to those features? They arn't things promised on the box, they are completely new and as such they go above and beyond the original premise of the game. Whenever something does that it is an additional product and as such should be paid for.

Originally posted by Krabbus

I have to buy it since they are changing the gamemechanics and how my profession will be compared to others - if they didn't change the gamemechanics like this I would have a choice, but not now [/B]

You have a choice. You don't have to buy it if you don't want it. You are mistaken in your statement. If you feel you absolutly must have every opportunity that everyone else does THEN and only then do you need to buy the pack. If you're happy with the game as it stands and the options you currently have then you don't need to buy anything new at all.



Can we please have an offical response to how Shadowland will affect the gamemechanics, please Cosmik or Cz???? [/B][/QUOTE]

What would you like them to say. That everything that was written in the release was a complete lie and they've decided instead to provide everyone with everything from the expansion pack for free?

[Goldblock]

FC, plz make a server with only AO without the expansion, so Krabbus don`t have to be forced to buy the expansion..

/me gives Krabbus, the expansion pack. And the peace is restored..

[Kuro]

I think a lot of people in this thread are overreacting to a lack of information (and in some cases, a lack of logical thought processes ).

The expansion pack will probably be a blend of both features that require the expansion pack to take advantage of and features that are added to AO for everyone. Entering the Shadowland dimension, for example, will probably require the expansion pack. The City of Jobe, on the other hand probably will not. Why? Because, according to the information given on it, Jobe is the transit point between the normal AO world and the Shadowlands.

The skill specializations is also very likely a feature that will be availible to everyone. Why? Think about it for a second. People that buy the expansion pack won't be restricted from entering the normal AO world. That means their enhanced entries in the character database will have to be compatible with the normal AO world for them to interact with it. If the character's database entry were not compatible, if the additions necessary to the character's database entry interfered with normal functioning in the normal AO world, those features would have to be disabled in the normal AO world. Or they would be banished, essentially, to the Shadowlands forever. That would mean extra work to make sure that either their abilities would be disabled or that their Shadowland character remained separate from their Normal Game character. So the easiest solution would be to make it availible for everyone.

Items are a different story however. It is completely fair to make it so some items can only be found in the Shadowlands. It is also completely fair that those items might give a Shadowlands player an advantage over a normal AO player. That's called incentive. But the normal AO world still would not require the normal players to have those items to function in it. So long as you can play AO without the expansion pack it is completely fair to restrict you from the enhanced items in the expansion pack.

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by Kuroshio
The skill specializations is also very likely a feature that will be availible to everyone. Why? Think about it for a second. People that buy the expansion pack won't be restricted from entering the normal AO world. That means their enhanced entries in the character database will have to be compatible with the normal AO world for them to interact with it. If the character's database entry were not compatible, if the additions necessary to the character's database entry interfered with normal functioning in the normal AO world, those features would have to be disabled in the normal AO world. Or they would be banished, essentially, to the Shadowlands forever. That would mean extra work to make sure that either their abilities would be disabled or that their Shadowland character remained separate from their Normal Game character. So the easiest solution would be to make it availible for everyone.

That's my point, the skill specializations is the foundation of the game and have to be available for everyone playing AO. Thank you for saying this in a simple way (guess I have problem to express myself, hehe)

Items are a different story however. It is completely fair to make it so some items can only be found in the Shadowlands. It is also completely fair that those items might give a Shadowlands player an advantage over a normal AO player. That's called incentive. But the normal AO world still would not require the normal players to have those items to function in it. So long as you can play AO without the expansion pack it is completely fair to restrict you from the enhanced items in the expansion pack.

Totally agree with you here and that's what I was saying from my 3rd post or something

It's what you are wearing and using that make the difference. The breeds here are computerdesigned characters and have to work in the same way (no artificial intelligence here, sorry). You can't say that an stripped-off Shadowland Solitus Engineer should be better than a normal Solitus Engineer

[BoomDoom]

Originally posted by Krabbus
That's my point, the skill specializations is the foundation of the game and have to be available for everyone playing AO. Thank you for saying this in a simple way (guess I have problem to express myself, hehe)

Yes, and now you have someone to be wrong with. Skill specializations should not affect basic game play and will almost definitly only be for the peope that buy the expansion. I think you're drastically overstating the importance of these specializations. If the healer MA, as in the example that was given, just has the ability to gain a few extra points in First Aid that hardly creates a machanics issue that will force all Funcom to make sure all players have the same options. The way we know this is that there will be choices. Since not everyone is going to be a healing MA the mechanics will be set up for different people to do different things, such as operate with and without the specializations.

Originally posted by Krabbus

Totally agree with you here and that's what I was saying from my 3rd post or something

It's what you are wearing and using that make the difference. The breeds here are computerdesigned characters and have to work in the same way (no artificial intelligence here, sorry). You can't say that an stripped-off Shadowland Solitus Engineer should be better than a normal Solitus Engineer

No, your point was that you didn't want to be killed by a gun you had refused to buy. And yes, i can say a shadowlands engineer should be better then a non shadow lands one. Why? Because he has access to things the "normal" guy doesn't

[Takima]

Krabbus, I think your whole point about the basic game mechanics being changed by skill specialisations needs to be but on hold until we get more details on them. They may not be that impacting after all. Who knows? As far as PvP is concerned, I'm still going to be watching out for the many PvPer's 100 or so levels higher than me whether they are SL-enabled or not.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Thugdoom


Yes, and now you have someone to be wrong with. Skill specializations should not affect basic game play and will almost definitly only be for the peope that buy the expansion. I think you're drastically overstating the importance of these specializations. If the healer MA, as in the example that was given, just has the ability to gain a few extra points in First Aid that hardly creates a machanics issue that will force all Funcom to make sure all players have the same options. The way we know this is that there will be choices. Since not everyone is going to be a healing MA the mechanics will be set up for different people to do different things, such as operate with and without the specializations.

Did you read any part of what I posted? To make skill specializations dependant on purchasing the expansion pack Funcom would have to:

1. Restrict expansion pack players to the Shadowlands, denying their characters entrance into the regular AO world.
2. Maintain maintain separate character databases for expansion pack enhanced players vs non-enhanced ones.

The very basic level of AO's game mechanics, AO's skill system, will not allow a person to permanently raise a skill per level beyond the amount defined by their breed and profession. In order to get around this would mean having to rewrite a core component of the game mechanics: the skill system. In order for an expansion pack player to interact with the regular game world, they must still follow the regular game world mechanics. The only way to do that is to either exclude the expansion pack mechanics from the regular game world somehow. That would mean placing restrictions on the people who paid more for the game than the normal players. The only option left is to include the expansion pack mechanics into the regular gameworld.

Edit for further explanation

There are ways to get around rewriting the core skill system to allow advancing a skill beyond the hard caps. But they would all require placing restrictions on the people that paid more than the regular players to do so.

Funcom could make it so that they could only advance their skills in the Shadowlands. In the Shadowlands they could use a special machine to advance a skill beyond the normal limits. But then this would require the player to trek to that machine every time they levelled. If I paid more, I'd never accept this. I should be able to allocate IP anywhere, at any time.

Funcom could make an item expansion pack players carried to bypass the core skill system's limits. Then they would have to worry about replacing those items if they were deleted. True, they could make them unable to be deleted. But then they're eating up an inventory slot of the player. From a typical 3 mission run, my inventory is full. Nevermind if we hunt for an extended period of time. That's out as well.

[Jayde]

Actually, both can co-exist.

The current AO client can be patched to view any new item/skills/whatever. That doesn't mean they have to be able to use them!

Just because super-uber-nano-of-doom is in the item database doesn't mean that people without the pack will be able to use it. That's easy enough to restrict.

Besides, you know most of the "good stuff" will be NODROP anyway.

For the skills thing, the same concept applies. The server and client will only LET a Shadowlands player accumulate whatever points are needed for the skill system. Likewise, only the Shadowlands client will even have an interface for it.

Why would this affect a legacy player? Say you have a skill that gives you +100 Pistol because you took the Pistol Specialty Course. (Just being hypothetical here.) Other player sees you with X amount of Pistol skill. It doesn't matter HOW you got it, just that you have it. Big deal.

-Jayde

[BoomDoom]

Originally posted by JaydeStargunner
Actually, both can co-exist.

The current AO client can be patched to view any new item/skills/whatever. That doesn't mean they have to be able to use them!



-Jayde

Exactly the point I had planned on making. Guess I've got to move faster next time.

[_________________Mor]

Originally posted by eaze
This thread is bull****. IT's an expansion pack, no you dont get the stuff in the pack if you don't buy it. Wtf kind of posting is that?

LOL...

You would expect most people to know something like that. Maybe people just like to complain

[BoomDoom]

Originally posted by Mor


LOL...

You would expect most people to know something like that. Maybe people just like to complain

Not only would i expect people to know it, i would think that after 4 pages of people reiterating that and demonstrating why its true it would start to sink in

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Thugdoom

Originally posted by JaydeStargunner
Actually, both can co-exist.

The current AO client can be patched to view any new item/skills/whatever. That doesn't mean they have to be able to use them!



-Jayde

Exactly the point I had planned on making. Guess I've got to move faster next time.

And he's wrong. The AO client has absolutely nothing to do with how high you can raise a skill. It can be made to display any skill at any amount, yes. But raising those skills, spending IP in a skill, is all controlled by the server and the databases stored there. Simple proof of this is both in logic and actual attempts by people to alter the client. If the client had absolutely anything to do with skill amounts, the AO client would be vulnerable to hacks to alter that amount. As soon as AO was released, people at Hackersquest tried hacking the client. What they found is they could make the client say anything they wanted. But the actual values were controlled completely by the server.

So in order to let someone raise their skills beyond set breed/profession caps and increments, the programming on the servers has to be changed.

[BoomDoom]

Yeah, and the programming on the servers will likely say the code version of

"If a Shadowlands MA chooses the heal option he gets +1 treatment every third level and +1 first aid every fourth level"

There is no reason why a non-shadow lands character MUST have the same skill choices as a shadowlands character

[___________Hisaomaro]

Originally posted by Krabbus
I have seen the shadowland expansion pack, but there's something I really don't understand. I have bought AO and have played it for several months now.

You find the the article at http://pc.ign.com/articles/360/360429p1.html

Hmm, for me this sounds like you are changing "profession" during your life (making treatment green skills etc), and isn't it very easy to make an uber char if this is possible? But what will happen with old AO players, will they take a part of this too?

I think what they mean is not changng colors, but instead of just getting one point automaically per level.. .maybe 5 for those specialty skills.. ???

[BoomDoom]

Originally posted by Plexes


I think what they mean is not changng colors, but instead of just getting one point automaically per level.. .maybe 5 for those specialty skills.. ???

that's the impression i got as well.

[Takima]

Lets think about this at another way....maybe instead of people getting more points to raise a skill per level or a skill changing color, how about this: The 'healing' MA gets reduced nano cost, or a quicker casting time on his heal line. The 'attack' MA gets a reduced cost or longer duration on his controlled rage line.

Maybe depending on your class and choice of specialisation, you will get an automatic bonus that is equal to a range increaser or nano recompiler.

Like I mentioned in my last post, the expansion is way too far away to really even draw any conclusions about it affecting gameplay right now.

One thing I'm quite sure of, however, is that a lot of people that say they aren't going to buy it or are quitting over it will be first in line at the stores the day it's released.

[ryack]

One thing I'm quite sure of, however, is that a lot of people that say they aren't going to buy it or are quitting over it will be first in line at the stores the day it's released.

Wow you're very sure about this aren't you. I have no idea how you can be though.

Let's see, by the time this expansion comes out there will probably be some other games/expansions out as well. Or did you think it was just coincidence, that they are coming with an expansion in the same period.
Hmm AC2 (beta?), Shadowbane, SWG or even the DAoC expansion.

So take a guess what i am going to buy in the shop. The choices are an upgrade to AO which i have to by or my char will be useless compared to new chars. Or one of the brandnew games, where everything is still new and fresh.