The PvP Ranking System

[_______________Quazz]

Originally posted by JEB

Setting: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1300 (No-title)
Fight 1: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1316 (No-title)
Fight 2: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1333 (No-title)
Fight 3: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1350 (No-title)
Fight 4: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1368 (No-title)
Fight 5: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1387 (No-title)
Fight 6: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1406 (Freshman)

I think the points should be like this as the modifier will be negative because of the negative point difference

Setting: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1300 (No-title)
Fight 1: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1316 (No-title)
Fight 2: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1331 (No-title)
Fight 3: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1346 (No-title)
Fight 4: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1360 (No-title)
Fight 5: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1374 (No-title)
Fight 6: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1387 (No-title)
Fight 7: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1400 (Freshman)

So if you have by accident misscounted your fights this would fit perfectly as player 2 should have exactly 1400 points and thus be able to loose his title to player 1 if he lost the fight. If you have the time it would be cool if you could test it again (or maybe someone else could?). Also someone should test it with 8 player 2 victories and the one player 1 victory. If these numbers are correct 8 victories should bring player 2 out of player 1's point range.

Anyway this is how I view the formula and it may or may not be entirely wrong, but at least it would explain JEB's observations

[________________Rook]

Originally posted by meomy
where is the war in this game? pvp is one thing but it is used to pasifie us from not wanting a story or the war that goes with it.
And i say once again how can you have a war when everyone is concealed and has a perception range of 2 feet?

I agree with you 100%! This has been my feeling about PvP from the start.

What kind of lunatic would would charge into battle carrying a bow--or worse, a sledgehammer--to face enemies wielding plasma rifles and nanobot-charged rifles? Only one kind: a dead lunatic. Can you imagine how quickly modern wars would be over if that sort of thing went on? And we don't even have plasma rifles! Has 30,000 years of civilization taught us nothing?

How is it that a guy with a stick can hit someone at the extreme rang of a sniper rifle?

And until there is a *reason* to kill omni employees (i.e. something to be gained--like territory), why should we bother? Even if a group of high-level players assaults Omni-1 and kill the guards, they will have about 30 seconds of peace before the guards respawn. So why attack at all? Why waste the money (a very small amount, granted) sitting at the reclaim waiting for the effects of restoration to wear off, or standing in Omni-1 killing guards until you run out of ammo?

Anyway, just my 0.01cr.

Rook

[Gnubi]

Originally posted by Quazz

So if you have by accident misscounted your fights this would fit perfectly as player 2 should have exactly 1400 points and thus be able to loose his title to player 1 if he lost the fight. If you have the time it would be cool if you could test it again (or maybe someone else could?). Also someone should test it with 8 player 2 victories and the one player 1 victory. If these numbers are correct 8 victories should bring player 2 out of player 1's point range.

Yup I had that included in the post at first but edited out since I werent sure of anything. I calculate with both negative/positive difference. The thing is that with negative it takes 7 fights to get a freshman, but in reality it only took 6 so... I dunno whats correct

[______________Takhai]

I have seen people getting Freshman 2 hours after their last kill ..

My Enf was non titled a week ago when I logged off - He had freshman when I got on ;P

[Cosmik]

Ok, in regards to people claiming they gained or lost titles after fighting someone with a big difference in PvP titles, or gaining titles a while after fighting -

From what Cz and myself have checked (in game, and the code itself), the PvP ranking system is looking pretty good, but please do lets us know about these cases. Preferably I would like to know -

Who killed who?
What titles did you gain or lose?
When did you get the title? (What is the date you got title? Got the title after zoning? Got the title 3 hours after killing someone? etc)
...and so on

Basically, if you think something is odd, try and remember as much as you can and let me know. We'll look into it, but the more information you have, the better.

Thanks.

[_____________Abunari]

Thanks for spending time on this (i.e. pounding on Cz in the arenas)...

Could you clarify that it is a 100 point difference that leads to no exchange of points? You seem to have tested with a 400 point difference (previous post).

Thanks again and I'm glad we're working to notice and certainty here.

Maybe a pvp_rating and pvp_title commands would be helpful for people, even ones available through helpbot, so that people can help verify that it is working as intended.

Also, as to getting more people involved in pvp, in order to add the aggregate points to the system: can you post some examples of how the equations work, there is too much fuzzy math going on and without being able to check on our points, we just don't know how to interpret the equations that are given.

Cheers,
Abunari

[____________Arterous]

I remember getting my rookie title in a wierd way. I was in Tir arena, and I had killed maybe 3 people (on of which was a low level that was teamed with a high level). I then was attacked and killed by a higher level and higher titled clanner. When I got to the reclaim, I was rookie. I know this was after they claimed to have fixed the title bug where you didn't see it until you zoned.


/shrug

[_______________Sjoko]

Originally posted by JEB
Setting: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1300 (No-title)
Fight 1: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1316 (No-title)
Fight 2: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1333 (No-title)
Fight 3: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1350 (No-title)
Fight 4: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1368 (No-title)
Fight 5: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1387 (No-title)
Fight 6: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1406 (Freshman)

Disclaimer: Since there is still some confusion about some aspects of the pvp-formula its not sure that whats printed above is completly correct.

Thanks JEB, actually that clarifies a lot of things. First thing you get 16 + (0.04 * +difference) regardless if the person is lower titled than you or not. I did the same math as you last night and came up with 2 versions, one where you got -difference and one with +difference. The one with +differnce has exactly the same numbers you came up with. If there would be a 16 (0.04*-difference) it would take 7 kills to get freshman.

(I see just now that quazz posted the results on the 'second' version with modifiers, so I'm skipping that )

Anyway if it took 6 kills JEB would be right in his version. Once way you can also check is to continue killing that person with 1300 points up until you gain rookie with another one. And then let the untitled one kill the rookie. Then let the untitled one kill the rookie until the rookie looses his title or the untitled become freshman (if the title last that long).

Calculate how many points you would have then and let a gm check it.

[Takima]

Well Cosmik, after having getting Rookie at lvl 73 and pretty much avoiding PvP for a few months after reaching 75, I was a bit suprised when I was dropped to Freshman by Masked Commandoes when they attacked Omni-Ent and Trade a while back. Considering I should have had at least 1500 points, and they should have had 1300 points, there should have been no change.
One thing that gets me about this formula is there's no mention of the difference in character level that people thought mattered some for points.

[Razzitazz]

Originally posted by Cz

Yup, it works both ways. Cosmik and I logged in to test. I set his rating to 1700 and mine to 1300, then killed him, and he didn't lose any points.

I don't know if you guys have "real" toons but I would love to see a battle of the 300lvl GM's. Think we can get a fight going

[Gnubi]

Originally posted by Sjoko


Thanks JEB, actually that clarifies a lot of things. First thing you get 16 + (0.04 * +difference) regardless if the person is lower titled than you or not. I did the same math as you last night and came up with 2 versions, one where you got -difference and one with +difference. The one with +differnce has exactly the same numbers you came up with. If there would be a 16 (0.04*-difference) it would take 7 kills to get freshman.

(I see just now that quazz posted the results on the 'second' version with modifiers, so I'm skipping that )

Anyway if it took 6 kills JEB would be right in his version. Once way you can also check is to continue killing that person with 1300 points up until you gain rookie with another one. And then let the untitled one kill the rookie. Then let the untitled one kill the rookie until the rookie looses his title or the untitled become freshman (if the title last that long).

Calculate how many points you would have then and let a gm check it.

Exactly, I got it all wrapped in a nice little program allowing me to play around with different interpretations of the rules given by Cosmik. It would be really nice if he would specify on especially the score_difference +/- question and if the 100 point rule works both ways. We cant really test to see if the system actually works as its intended before we get the right formula =) I will try to find some more time to test but killing peeps and then wait 5 min for rez takes kind of a long time so if someone on rk2 got time to help so that we could go to the arena with 10 lvl 1's it would be much easier to test =)

[Arinia]

What would be interesting is that if we conducted these same tests on the test server, would we get the same results.

[_________________Zuh]

Why would you like to be Grandmaster when you are Neophyte BUT the only Neophyte around ?


I find this system nice : )

You will have to struggle for the next title level as soon as more people increase their title level. This sytem looks good : ).

[Sethil]

Btw... I dont care about titles.
Most of titleholder are afraid to lose their titles and you see the most waiting in 75% zone for a poor and lonely guy in 0/25% zone. If their chances seem to be good, they attack, if not they dont attack and wait for an other one...

Many high titleholders mean they are good PvPer... "Hey, Im Neophyte, I must be good... look at my title"

But the kind of PvP they do is like a bad joke.. they never attack deep red enemies unless they are teamed and can outnumber the opponent. If you see them standing in arena or PvP zone you can bet there is no one around who could beat them, but when a higher lvl comes along and in sight they move their ass out of the dangerous zone...
They never PvP w/o a backdoor where they can zone out if it gets too hard...
They only call out a duel when their chances are good, never when the chances are less...

But I guess that isnt their own fault... there is nothing to fight for, no valuable goals, no areas to conquer... only titles to gain. So the big question is: "Why shall I pvp when the only thing to win is a ridiculous title?" Just for the fun of it? Yes, but its like all other things in life... you need a goal. And the only goal for PvP in game is a title and the only way to get a higher title is the way which I described above...

Maybe Im totally wrong, but I bet more than 75% of all PvP works like that.

I read an interesting post PvP Thoughts & Suggestions and I guess there are some suggestions which could solve the lack of fun in PvP.

[_________________XyZ]

Originally posted by Zuh
Why would you like to be Grandmaster when you are Neophyte BUT the only Neophyte around ?


I find this system nice : )

You will have to struggle for the next title level as soon as more people increase their title level. This sytem looks good : ).

Because its like hitting lvl 100 and staying 100 for ever, its just not fun and there is more to be had. So I'm one of 6 Neo's, I want to get higher because there is higher. But having my ability to get a higher title controled by the pace of others ability to gain titles is not right. Thats like not being able to lvl until everyone is the same lvl as you, then you can progress. extreme analogy.

[_____________Dankman]

Originally posted by Softtouch
Dear boneheads!

This rating system is very much like the FICA system for rating chess players. If you have a problem with how the Game of Game's is rated, see my greeting! Reaching the top of PvP SHOULD take a long time. They have not mentioned that reaching Grandmaster can only be achieved by one player like the highest title in RL Martial Arts, so you should be happy that there can be any number of Grandmasters. Continue to PvP and enjoy yourself. Can't you guys find anything better to do with your game times than finding something inconsequential to whine about.

Softtouch 118 MA

Independent Rubi-Kans

Nope, and neither can you.

[_____________Dankman]

Originally posted by JEB
Hey

After the release of these formulas/rules me and some friends have been conducting a few test to see if the rules actually were correct. Here is the setup of one of our tests:

We created two characters and brought them to the arena. Since they are all fresh they will both have a pvp-score of 1300 according to cosmik. We then let our pvp-winner char kill the pvp-loser char. We then waited... and waited for the bloddy rez =). This was performed 6 times with the victim fully rezzed and fully healed for every attemp. Then after 6 kills, bing our pvp-winner gets a freshman title. Now compare this to a simulation we run on the new rules:

Setting: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1300 (No-title)
Fight 1: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1316 (No-title)
Fight 2: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1333 (No-title)
Fight 3: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1350 (No-title)
Fight 4: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1368 (No-title)
Fight 5: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1387 (No-title)
Fight 6: Player 1: 1300 (No-title) Player 2: 1406 (Freshman)

Disclaimer: Since there is still some confusion about some aspects of the pvp-formula its not sure that whats printed above is completly correct.

Okay so now we have player 1 with 1300 score and player 2 with at least 1400 in score and a freshman title. According to the simulation above the freshman would have 1406 in score, that means there is a 1406-1300 = 106 points diiference = they shouldnt be capabel of getting points from each other. We then let the pvp-loser kill the freshman a single time, which resulted in the freshman losing his title. According to the explanation this shouldnt be possibel since the score difference between them is greater than 100. It would only be possibel if the freshman have had a score of exact 1400 which we have no way to check, but that would neither be the case if we follow the formula.

I would like to hear an answer on how this can be possibel?

Edit: I would very much like a clarification wether or not the score_difference is a negative value for both the looser and winner? Another question is if you actually do run the formula for both participant in a pvp fight or only for one of them and then use the result value on both? I just wondered about the scenarios where the two opponents have a different base_change modifier.

A possible explanation of this is that when a new title is gained, it could be rounded off to the nearest hundred. Example:

Player A has 1399 points and kills Player B with 1300 points.

Player A gains the title Freshman and his points go to 1400.

That's just a possibility.

[_____________Dankman]

Originally posted by Rhayden


Are you sure you cannot loose points from killing lower titleds? Please keep low lvl / high lvl out of this since it clearly doesn't matter.

As Isbilen corrected me:

1750 - 1670 = 80 = Rating Difference if Cosmik1 wins
1670 - 1750 = -80 = Rating Difference if Cosmik2 wins

16 = Base Change
0.04 = Change Modifier

16 + (0.04 x 80) = 19.2
16 + (0.04 x -80) = 12.8

If Apprentice Cosmik1 wins, he get's 19.2 points and Novice Cosmik2 lose 19.2 points

If Novice Cosmik2 wins, he get's 12.8 points and Apprentice Cosmik1 lose 12.8 points

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, what if:

1720 Cosmik1
1300 Cosmik2

1300 - 1790 = -490 Rating Difference if Cosmik1 wins.

16 = Base Change
0.04 = Change Modifier

16 + (0.04 x -490) = 16 + (-19.6) = -3.6 Points if Cosmik1 kills Cosmik2.

Explain this Dankman.

Also, as a final note. I cannot express how stupid I think this system is, if you can infact loose points from a sucsessful kill.

Scenario: 20 Novice Clanners hold 2ho. Omni-Tek sends in 20 Non-titled lvl80's. The 20 Novice Clanners run like hell to avoid combat, or terminate. Is it just me or is this a huge LOL?

That's just the basic formula after a boolean check I assume. They aren't within 100 pts of the other person, therefor the formula does not execute. Does that make sense? And maybe that's where the bug is.

[_____________Dankman]

I have perhaps a way to organize the PvP system so that it is satisfactory to the majority.

We all know that the system to fight over bases will be along sometime.

We all know that there are arenas.

We all know that many people are worried to fight large groups in fear of losing their title so easily.


Make the title system only active when in arenas or private dueling areas so that it is a duel rating system. This will bring more people out into the open to PvP and fight for bases, etc. Like someone said, this system is like the chess rating system. It doesn't measure how many people we have slaughtered, just how many around our "skill level" we have killed.

[Tentumbs]

Originally posted by Cz

Yup, it works both ways. Cosmik and I logged in to test. I set his rating to 1700 and mine to 1300, then killed him, and he didn't lose any points.

Ok. Let say that the roule "Fighting people with a rating that differs by more than 100 from your own will never change your rating." is not working.

This would meen that for this test the the change would be:
16 + (0.04 * (1300 - 1700)) = 0.

1700 - 0 =1700.
Cz rating could not go any lower and ofcource stay 1300.

In other word it seems like it work, but due to tricking with number it does not.

Could you please repeat this test using 1800 and 1300? (BTW: The one with 1800 must also win this match)
Please?

If you then found a bug it would explain most of this I think.