Hacked Accounts Discussion

[gnuman]

Originally posted by Flapsie
so item reinbursment is to get back items that u forgot u deleted or forgot where u put onto the ground or otherwise lost ?
Have I got it right ?

Getting items back lost due to server crashes etc.

[Darkbane]

Correct, item reinbursement will (when it arrives one day) enable you to request the return of an item that you had and no longer have due to a server crash or similar. It will not be to get items back that you accidentaly deleted, sold or dropped. I'd hope it would cover trading to NPCs or pets mind you.

That seems to be what is being said.

[_______________Onabi]

So actually what funcom says:
-"Your items are better stolen then lost due to the crappy game we create, stolen items worth more then other items..."
you won't get items back if they're lost due to server crash?

[gnuman]

No, they are not re-imbursing stolen items either. They gave Mantravadi and Hanaah the stuff they lost back because they got hacked twice, and reported twice. And they were promissed the person was dealed with after the first time, which he in fact wasn't.

[wolven]

Originally posted by {T}Bleeder
WTF!!!!! can't sell accounts thats lame, that is really lame if you guys didnt have a problem with secuity with your poorly encodeing and handeling of ecypted keys with woulnd't happen ( note : this is a pursuption as a network professional who has delt with many poorly written network programs no true evidence lies behind it only a pursupmtion ) as far as stolen accoutns go this has happend in every single mmorpg so its only due process that it happens here

Well... If I had to guess heres why...

In order to start AO, you had to buy the game, either the boxed form, or if you used hte 7 day trial, you were charged $20 for the first month ( or $20 for game, and free first month ). As a result, you paid for the software. If you then sell the account to someone else, they have not paid for the software, and as a result are practicing software piracy.. which, is illegal.

wolven

[_______Heart of Evil]

Originally posted by Spacegipsy
Another thing that puzzles me.. let's say I quit - that means I won't be allowed to give/sell/transfer my account in *any* way to a friend/guild-mate/whoever? I seriously doubt that this would stand a chance in any court.

I agree 100%. I don't think that any US court would agree with the Funcom standpoint. Most accounts that get transfered from one player to another are given to those who are already 'licenced' to use AO. Therefore, the argumant that the recipient isn't a licenced user is flawed.

[_____________Abunari]

Originally posted by Heart of Evil


I agree 100%. I don't think that any US court would agree with the Funcom standpoint. Most accounts that get transfered from one player to another are given to those who are already 'licenced' to use AO. Therefore, the argumant that the recipient isn't a licenced user is flawed.

Well, that's probably not the issue. In fact, it doesn't really present an in game problem, but just a thought:

The person getting the account wasn't a party to the original agreement, and isn't bound by the agreement until he/she is considered the owner, this makes a new agreement.

Let's keep our eyes on the problem: 1) Can FC effectively and fairly replace items that are lost in a server crash; 2) Can FC elaborate on the fact that this one incident is probably the only client-side hack that will ever result in replacement (because the situation wasn't handled consistently)(After all, they stated that they policy still stands, this case was an exception.)?

[frakk2k]

If the "give back my old items" is such a issue, how come there is so little talk about it?

I remember back in the days when I started playing, I had finaly gotten myself a pair of keelars, (wich I used some time to get), and I stuffed it in a bag, together with some implants. I traded the bag, and *poof* it got lost, we zoned and nothing happened.

I petitioned, and I got this answer : "Sorry, we cannot bring back items lost in trade".

And now the whole "You don't own the stuff really, you just lease it from FC."-matter comes to my mind.

If I loose some items in trade-bugs why is it such a big deal getting it back? After all, it is yours to give, not mine to keep.

And the problem was not the accounts that got hacked, it was the items/credits that got lost. So why not spend some more time coming up with a way making people happy again?

My point is, FC Support is just not adequate, they have lots of players to do all the "Oh, I am sorry, we cannot do that" for them. Actually, the only thing FC can do for you ingame, is teleport you out of the wall, so whatever else you might have any problems with, is not worth /petition about. (Like the server-sync problem "You were for 300 damage" *poof* and die outside a mission cave).

-Get the lost item problem fixed, get the loss of xp problem fixed-


Thanks.

[LLJKTonitrum]

The way I see it (and IANAL), there's a difference between regular software EULAs and MMOG EULAs.

The thing is, regular software EULAs aren't legally enforcable (I think) because of First Sale laws and such, UCITA-style laws notwithstanding. (Not that the software companies care...after all, they have armies of lawyers.)

Similar for MMOGs...although the only software you can purchase for them is the client.

The client is useless w/o a server...which is what the EULA really allows. Server access.

Again, IANAL, but that's how this seems to me.

[______________Nianna]

Here are the rules for misuse of accounts as stated in our EULA and RoC: An AO account is a personal account, which means that only one person can use it (ever!). Any change of ownership is against our End User License Agreement. Thus, one can't try to auction, sell, trade, lend or give away one's account (user name and password). Any indication that this has been done will call for immediate banning of the account, and any proof of change of ownership, not depending on how the change happened, will result in the account being closed permanently.

I believe Funcom is reading the EULA in a way that is inaccurate. That may have been the intention of Funcom but it appears to me that this is not what the EULA actually says. There are three relevant sections that I have found in the EULA regarding transfer of accounts and software.

Section 1 states:

Except as provided herein, you may not transfer or share your Account with anyone, except that if you are a parent or guardian, you may permit one child to use the Account instead of you (in which case you may not use that Account).

This only says you can't transfer the account unless it is provided for somewhere else in the EULA or it is transferred to a child. It does not say the child has to be your child, just that you must be a parent or guardian in order to transfer it to a child. Child is not defined here, so your guess is as good as mine as to whether child means (i) a person under age 18, (ii) a person under the age of 13, (iii) your son or daughter, regardless of age.

Section 7 states:

You may not distribute, rent, lease, loan modify or create derivative works, adapt, translate, perform, display, sublicense or transfer software.

Here the user is specifically prohibited from transferring the software, not the account. You can't give your Anarchy Online disc to another person so they can play, but they don't need your software to use an account. They could always buy a new AO box.

Section 18 states:

You may not use, copy, modify, sublicense, rent, sell, assign or transfer your rights or obligations in this Agreement except as expressly provided in this Agreement. Any assignment in violation of this Agreement is void, except that you may transfer your Account to another person provided that person accepts the terms of this Agreement.

This seems to explicity allow you to transfer your account to another person provided they are willing to accept the EULA. Section 1 only provided that you can't transfer an account if it isn't provided for elsewhere and it seems to be provided for right here. Transfer in this case may not include selling of accounts since a distinction was made between sell and transfer in the first sentence, but it certainly seems to indicate that you may GIVE your account to another person.

How does Funcom reconcile this with their policy that any account that has changed ownership should be banned?

[_____________Abunari]

Excellent dissection of the agreement, Nianna.

This is why people say you can have the account, you're just paying for their time as a service.

This is probably why Funcom doesn't go after people transferring accounts, and right so, since that's a waste of resources which would be better spend improving the game and interacting with the community.

[Tentumbs]

Originally posted by Nianna


I believe Funcom is reading the EULA in a way that is inaccurate. That may have been the intention of Funcom but it appears to .
.
.
.
How does Funcom reconcile this with their policy that any account that has been changed ownership should be banned?

What a compleatly ridicilus kind of crap.

No wonder that you can sue anyone for anything in the states when you take this approch to others property.

[_____________Abunari]

Originally posted by RealGunslinger


What a compleatly ridicilus kind of crap.

No wonder that you can sue anyone for anything in the states when you take this approch to others property.

Good thing for USA too, since in the EC, the software isn't patentable, nor is it property per se. In the US, it is patentable and property.

Good thing we have this great game to play or all this legal reasoning would be overwhelming.

[______________Nianna]

Originally posted by RealGunslinger


What a compleatly ridicilus kind of crap.

No wonder that you can sue anyone for anything in the states when you take this approch to others property.

Others propery? I'm sure there are no others paying for my account. No others are spending hundreds of hours making my characters gain levels and equipment. Which others property are you talking about?

We have an EULA that says "you may transfer your Account to another person" and a company saying that if you do that and they find out they will ban not only your account but any account receiving equipment from it. I don't understand how these two things can co-exist.

[Sheffy]

For what its worth, here is my email I sent to support@funcom.com asking about the transfer of accounts, and their reply:

My email
If my friend wants to stop playing the game but I would like to continue to pay for his account and play his characters (in the hopes that he might come back later), is it 1) allowed by Funcom, and 2) possible to transfer the billing information from his to mine and change the password on the account?

Any help you can provide is appreciated.

Regards,

And their reply:

Funcom's reply
All you need to do is go into the account and switch out the credit card information. As long as you have the username and password, you can continue playing after that.

--
Best Regards,

I guess that's that. Funcom allows you to take over and play an account which was not yours as long as you pay for it and have the username and password.

--Tsk

[_____________Vatawna]

After reading all this crap I think I will stay away from games like this that only want to gain money... I expected some love for programming from programmes...but I fail to think about businessguys... argh, i will puke...

[Q]Nope. But if you log into somebody elses account, then trade somebody elses equipment to a friend to hold it for you while you log in your own account to get the items, he will be considered your accomplice, and will be banned together with you. That's the point of that part. [/Q]

Currently you can log into same account with 2 chars [from same account] at same time... a very well known feature.

[Naughti]

This is standard account procedure, very similar to what they have in Everquest. It serves a good purpose also since it makes it so that a person might not take sharing their account with 15 people they only know from the internet as lightly.

Here are some facts that I've come to know in 3 and
a half years of mmorpg gaming:

1) zero accounts have been "hacked." "Hack" suggests
some kind of skilled or semi-skilled attack on a particular
account and no one can even get to the servers from
the outside to do this. The easiest way to secure this
is the fundamental way to secure a network, make that
part of it not even accessable from the outside.

There are a couple things which make this moderately
impossible, one being the fact that YOU don't even know my
login name (its not this one, that would be silly since I post
with it... I'm not an idiot) and the other being that even with
that you'd have to guess my double nonsensical word followed
by numbers password.

2) all "hacks" have in fact been people just not being very wise
in who they select to give their account info to. Here is an example of not being wise in who you give your account info to:

Giving your account info to ANYONE.

That sums it up. If you give your account info to anyone you are possibly going to have trouble, anyone at all. You should take the example the funcom rep posts to heart, MANY of these problems come from dating people who break up or married people who seperate. The first thing a member of those parties who feels upset with the other one thinks of is

"hey, I have their info for that dang game which is so important to them.. hmmm..."

Just don't share it, even with them. If you want someone else to play GET THEM THEIR OWN ACCOUNT. Have them select their own login and password and not tell you. Sure, there are keystroke programs where they could get your pass and login if onsite at the computer but I guaruntee you that someone you introduce to computer gaming is probably never going to conceive that.

3) the above reasons are why companies like this have that hardline policy. A very LARGE amount of CS time is tied up by these people who are just not wise at all in the handling of their account.

If you gave your son or daughter a key to your house do you have to worry about them giving it to all their buddies in case they might want to come by and use your house? Probably not.
People are just a whole lot more casual about doing this in an MMORPG. CS knows this, they know this from FIRST HAND experience. They've heard it all. Its tied up valueble CS resources and anyway you slice it you will find the same reason for why it happend:

The customer gave out their info. It doesn't matter to whom, they gave it out. If you give it out how serious will your user be about protecting it? I mean you let them use it, they'll just let their bestest buddy "Goober" use it. Oops, goober lost items and deleted characters. He did not know how serious the use of the account was since after all the friend of a friend let him use it so how important can the thing be?

CS is very familiar with this because it just happened, just now. It happed a half hour ago too and the hour before that. It will continue happening everyday. It will tie up CS and gamemaster time which could be better spent elsewhere, all because someone doesn't know enough to secure their own property in the easiest way possible.

If this is only a video game for fun to you, if you don't care about your account or characters, then by all means share it with just one person. That is a real good way to eventually have something bad happen no matter who they are.

CS has to have a hardline policy about this to try to prevent it from happening so much. The thing is, even people familiar with the policy and even people who post in this thread will continue to share accounts. One day it will happen to them, like it happens to everyone who does eventually.

[______________bob123]

Originally posted by Scorus
[B]Some questions:



Was this a case of a breach of security on Funcom's end or the player's end?



If either the hacker or the hacked are in the US then it is a US Federal crime and the FBI should be brought in. If not then I'm sure other countries have similar laws. Needless to say they have the ability to track all but the most professional hackers (who wouldn't waste their time deleting items in an AO account).

And on the issue of trust, trust has to be earned. Rule #2 of how to create an atmosphere of paranoia is to 'Ration information with miserly reluctance.' Actions such as doing away with the In Production area of the web (and not updating it in the first place) and the other CS debacles that we've talked about previously continue to create to poison your efforts to earn our trust.

Scorus

Do you know what "hacking" is? This individual was clearly not "hacked". It was almost undoubtedly either a trojan or perhaps even more amusing something such as sharing your entire hard disk on a network server or on a file sharing server such as direct connect.

Now on to the FBI part. The FBI will basically ignore any internet crime if the inflicted damages are not greater than $5000 since the entire idea of FBI intervention is based on prosecution, and the infliction of property damages under $5000 would not be federally prosecuted.

In other words, call your local police station and report somebody stole your online game account and deleted some of your items. LOL. Good luck, but don't act like this is anymore than an act of carelessness on the part of one individual.

It is virtually impossible for another person to access any information on your computer without carelessness on your part.

[Cz]

Old issue. Closing the thread.