How to kill a game - Remove Twinking/OEing

[______________Kwoung]

In my opinion, there should be a way in every game to make it easier the second, third, etc, time around. Otherwise folks will just leave... period.

If you do not believe that, look at DAOC, it is the perfect example of how players react when a company forces them into mediocrity. DAOC does not allow OEing, players level up one character, they try to twink a second character after they get bored, but find that leveling a second character is just as hard and boring as the first one, so instead they leave the game entirely. DAOC has the customer retention of a single player game, play it once, shelf it and move on. I don't think a larger exodus of players after reaching mid-high levels has ever happened in MMORPG before.

So while you may think it is "fair" that everyone be forced into the same level of mediocrity, most people whether they know it or not or will admit it or not do not agree, they will leave the game rather than stick around to play another character or have a easy alt to fall back on when the main gets frustrating. Also without over equiping, the game company removes the occassional feeling even the noob got as he managed to wiggle into a new higher level gun or armor that dropped, thus giving him a feeling of extra power and satisfaction for a while. He can now kill easier, live longer and gets excited about the game all over again because he broke his dying streak or got a level faster than the last time.

Anyways, it has already been proven by another game company that by removing over equiping you will destroy the longevity and fun of the game. Personally I can not believe Funcom is going to follow suit and do it as well after watching what Mythic did to themselves. I think they would have been a bit smarter to follow Verants path and allow massive over equiping, since they have the largest, longest lasting, most dedicated playerbase in one of these types of games ever. Why take the path what will become known as the biggest MMORPG flop has taken instead?

[______________Wahoo.]

The war is over. This OE fix will affect the low end game more than anyone else. Its to put an end to those level 12ish twinks with level 80 ish weapons.

[______________Kwoung]

Exactly my point, so why would most people bother making a level 12 twink now if they can not be more powerful and have it a bit easier?

Answer: They won't, they will move on, just like the last game that implemented this.

[_______FeloniousPunk]

Originally posted by Flann
Exactly my point, so why would most people bother making a level 12 twink now if they can not be more powerful and have it a bit easier?

Answer: They won't, they will move on, just like the last game that implemented this.

I hate seeing level 12 twinks going out to the arena so they can 0wn gullible noobs. There's no good reason for it and it wrecks the game for the new players.

If the twinks are going to quit over 14.2, good riddance to them.

[______________Kwoung]

Originally posted by FeloniousPunk
I hate seeing level 12 twinks going out to the arena so they can 0wn gullible noobs. There's no good reason for it and it wrecks the game for the new players.

If the twinks are going to quit over 14.2, good riddance to them.

Wonderful sentiment, but the fact is that twinking at some level or another is what keeps the vast majority of players around in a game after the initial play.

Another fact: It is impossible to keep a game based on grouping and character building fun if it is rebalanced for one on one PvP. The two types of play do not mix at all and need entirely seperate rules.

[_________Lodrin-Omni]

You are 100% right Flann. Just letting you know that despite the countles whiners that will find their way into this post.

You are right

[_______________Vydas]

Originally posted by FeloniousPunk



If the twinks are going to quit over 14.2, good riddance to them.

Well, at least we all know you aren't a member of the owner's family, eh?

[___________Zeroshift]

THe OE patch doesn't go far enough, not far enough at all...

They should have taken it all the way...

I'm personally tired of seeing everyone, and I mean everyone level 150+ running around in the same god damn gear...

With proper OE restrictions people would be a lot more willing to use the gear that's best suited for their skills.

[_______________Vydas]

It's a terrible idea, and it does reduce interest, as was stated at the top of this thread.

That said, yes, since they are doing it anyway, it should be taken all the way. People should be forced to removed everything before fighting again. There should be no choice in the matter. That way, everyone can suffer equally, and we can all be miserable together, nevermind the fact that it's a game, and we could be having fun.

[______________Kwoung]

Originally posted by Zeroshift
THe OE patch doesn't go far enough, not far enough at all...

They should have taken it all the way...

I'm personally tired of seeing everyone, and I mean everyone level 150+ running around in the same god damn gear...

With proper OE restrictions people would be a lot more willing to use the gear that's best suited for their skills.

Well that is not a OE issue Zero, that is a general gear issue and it seems most games suffer from it because there is "always" one piece of gear that is better than all the others and everyone wants it. If there was 30 different weapon models all with the same stats as a Vektor or Mausser or whatever, you would see varience in the classes. Instead these particular weapons are "class defining" so everyone has to have one, thus end up looking like clones of each other. Same deal for armour. Personally I hate that my MA has to wear pink armour (Flowers Tech), but it is so vastly superior to any other choice I am left with little option.

Anyways, your point has nothing to do with OEing and could be addressed very easilly in other ways, without forcing all players into mediocrity.

[_________________Mor]

Reality check...

OE is *not* being removed. The only difference is you can't *super OE* anymore. Overall it's a good balance, buffs to get armor on are still useful for example.

Case closed.

[Destria]

I don't know about you, but I found it a hell of a lot easier to level up an alt even though I didn't OE him at ALL. All I gave him was money, and the means to get equipment. None of that is being taken away in 14.2.

[______________Kwoung]

Originally posted by Mor
Reality check...
OE is *not* being removed. The only difference is you can't *super OE* anymore. Overall it's a good balance, buffs to get armor on are still useful for example.

Case closed.

ROFLMAO

You end almost every post you make on these boards with some dribble like "Case Closed" as if you are the final word on anything. Reality check back to you... you aren't, you are about as far from that as possible actually, due to your trolling.

As for the rest of your reply, 20% is nothing. Not only do 20% OEed items not add much additional value to your hunting, it means every person will now also have to have tons of "Expertise" and "Boost" buffs running at all times, basically causing the entire group to stop and rebuff at every 20 and 30 minute mark or lose damage output and AC... to me that is tedium, not fun.

Nevermind that many folks(even average casual gamers) implanted to put a item on then swapped out the implants for another that helps them in another area, like healing, mezzing or buffing. Won't it be nice when Docs feel that their shotgun implant is more important than being able to buff you better? After all, players will take care of themselves first before thinking of helping others... it is "their" game after all and they have to deal with their character while solo and grouped, so tradeoffs will definately have to be made.

[_____________Mr Bean]

Though I disagree with you Flann I have to(unlike some other people *cough no its not case closed Mor) agree you do have a point

The problem is as always balance in PVM is based on PVP one of the reasons so many classes are like they are now.

But I to think some limit in is in order(With the old NCU trick its possible for a level 15 Trader to get on a lvl 150 Vektor or home defender(Mochams + 132 wrangle and stepping)

That and watching my friend get trashed in MMD by a Crat at 21(26 MA at that time) Using a 95 Vektor

There has to be SOME limit, hell I know people with Apprentice or better less than level 20 due to offering 50k a fight and watching as the lvl 1-5 Trader/Engie/MP either does the "Uber Pet Squish" trick or the root and shoot with QL 3x my level gun

Sure there is a twinking in nearl all games but some of the things you can do in AO are nuts.

[______________Kwoung]

Originally posted by Mr Bean
There has to be SOME limit, hell I know people with Apprentice or better less than level 20 due to offering 50k a fight and watching as the lvl 1-5 Trader/Engie/MP either does the "Uber Pet Squish" trick or the root and shoot with QL 3x my level gun

Sure there is a twinking in nearl all games but some of the things you can do in AO are nuts.

This I do agree with, but steps have already been taken to insure that folks can not "step implants" and be able to wear massive amounts of NCU, thus being able to take buffs way over their level in order to equip insanely.

If however, I work very hard and can manage to maximixe my NCU and be able to get a 132 wrangle, I should be able to continue to use the pistol I managed to equip. By the level that I have enough NCU space to take a 132 and maybe some other class buff now, due to already implemented changes, I feel I would be nicely equiped, not insanely. Also, to make this happen now, people need to actually dump all those points into CompLit and IP at lower and mid levels is already an issue. So folks will definately be giving up something else just to be able to equip a better weapon as soon as possible.

I guess my point is, that Funcom has already recently put a system in place to curb insane twinking and over equiping and I do not feel they need to take it further. At least not to the point of making all characters mediocre with no chance of really being powerful after they have worked quite hard for it.

[________DarkGatherer]

Its been said before...."Its OK to be different" and thats exactly what OE gives players!! The chance to be different, they have more control over what they want to wear/wield rather than just having to use the same thing as everyone else at their level. OEing is good and anyone who complains should be shot. I think the problem is just that not everyone can get what they want(some arent good at making chars) so they complain and whine so that any above average Joe in the game, with a nack for OEing, has to be brought back down to the average level of play. IMO thats not fair! It doesnt give that person the ability to play up to their potential and that person will eventually tire of the game and quit..FC may not see this as a problem now,but trust me they will later on but it will be too damn late.

[______________Kwoung]

Originally posted by DarkGatherer
I think the problem is just that not everyone can get what they want(some arent good at making chars) so they complain and whine so that any above average Joe in the game, with a nack for OEing, has to be brought back down to the average level of play. IMO thats not fair! It doesnt give that person the ability to play up to their potential and that person will eventually tire of the game and quit..FC may not see this as a problem now,but trust me they will later on but it will be too damn late.

That is exactly how DAOC works, it is impossible to actually "stand out". A complete MMORPG noob in DAOC actually has a fighting chance against pretty much anyone else their level, regardless of the other players skills and/or resources. To me (and obviously most other players) that was boring, thus we all left that game after leveling up once. Being forced into mediocrity in the name of PvP balance removed all the fun and I sincerely hope Funcom does not make the same mistake... like it looks as if they are about too.

A poor, new, first time character should not have a chance against a long term veteran, that is the way of things, to try and actively code a game otherwise just kills the fun for most everyone except the complete noob. Who by the way will not be a complete noob forever, he/she will also be ticked once he/she does level up, equips as well as possible and then gets killed by a complete noob because thats the way things work now. So what was the point of striving to make the best character you can now? None, since the best you can be is exactly the same as everyone else.


Edit: As what I would consider a better solution to insane OEing that would not cause undue grief to players...

I think that maybe just making Nano's level based would work. Make it so a level 10 can not have a 132 wrangle cast on them, maybe +65 is the most they can get regardless of their NCU, because the nano is too powerful for them. This would be much better than having to insure that you always have every single buff running constantly or lose effectiveness, once you get the item on, you should be able to use it regardless. Not that I feel this solution even needs to be done at this point, but if Funcom feels they need to take it further than they already have, I think the result should be as non-intrusive as possible to the playerbase in order to not remove even more fun from the game than already will be.

[_________________Mor]

Originally posted by Flann


As for the rest of your reply, 20% is nothing.

Whether or not you consider 20% OE to be much, what I said still remains true.

[______________Kwoung]

Originally posted by Mor
Whether or not you consider 20% OE to be much, what I said still remains true.

As was everything I said. The diffence is I offered proof, facts and alternatives, you just offered your simple opinion. So whats your point?

[Cotharin]

Well I agree with you guys, I suppose. But what I'm hearing here isn't the whining OE must happen people, its the whining people that think OE should stay. I've played both sides of the fence with almost every class in the game (yes I've tried them all at least once). Some classes obviously can twink far more than others, without anything special.

I look at my Enforcer for example. At level 27, with nothing more than a brutal thug buff, some really basic implants, and a 2h blunt expertise, I'm running around with a ql92 hammer. I go out and get a big essence, a crit buff, and step into a PVP zone. I'm really low so the only people I can fight are 30ish level players. I use MMD as a good hunting group because I always find a group of OMNI jerks that get a team of 6 to gank some poor mp just trying to grid out of there. So I head in, find the nearest Doc or MP becaues they tend to help the team the most. Hit him for 1-2 crits, and down he goes. Meanwhile the rest of the group stares dumbfounded because they as a group have taken at the most 1/3 my hp and just watched me hit for over 800 damage in a single blow. How is this fair? The ONLY reason I've gone ahead and done this is to get back at the many OMNI that have done it to me on my low hp main characters that can't defend themselves either.

Twinking is dumb, and it completely ruins the fun for a lot of people. The people that twink remind me of the cheaters in the many FPS games I've played. You can't hack it as a average player, so you resort to cheating to get better instantly. What you don't realize is you make it less fun for everyone else.

What would make this half interesting is to make anyone over OE completely unable to attack in PVP/Arena areas. Good you want to run a mission with a uber weapon, go have fun. Just don't come into a place where you can't play fair against real players.