Learn How To Spell Organization!!

[Dain Harper]

Originally posted by hobbes

On the otherhand, Atheism is a faith of disbelief. Without proof, you aver that God does not exist.

Now, if I had to chose one over the other, I would go for the pain killer. What would motivate one to have the faith of Athiesm. Sounds like someone who is rather angry at the world. One who would rather draw the ire of others, over being ignored.

No, atheism is not a fath of disbelief. It is (from dictionary.com)

The disbelief or denial of the existence of a God, or supreme intelligent Being.

The requirement to believe that there is a purpose to our lives is what has created religion. Each religion expresses in its own way the moral code of its followers - and hence as these moral codes will sometimes clash with others so there will always be a religious argument about who is correct. Whether you are starting a religious war or preaching the virtues of Christianity, you are (correctly or not) expressing your moral code to others.

Atheism (IMHO) is an acceptance that there does not have to be a god to make us exist and lead fulfilling lives. It otherwise acts exactly the same as any other religion. The 'faith' that you speak of is merely a faith in yourself.

And an AO discussion forum is not the place for religious debate anyway

[engelstein]

To put it in a form more easily understandable to me, you can say you have faith in anything you believe. I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. Does that make me a pagan sun-worshipper? Nope. Believing that there is no God isn't the same as faith in the existence of a God, because of the baggage that religion carries with it.

I don't go to Atheist Church every Sunday, now do I?

[______________hobbes]

Engelstein,

You are as wrong as you can be, and then some, troll (Yes, I know your game). The sun has risen everyday for thousands, millions, maybe billions of years. You have evidence (confidence)from this precedent that it will rise tomorrow. If you were to tell me that the sun will not rise, specifically tomorrow, because of something written in your "Bible", then you are acting on faith. Faith is unquestioning belief that does not require proof or evidence. You are dismissed, thanks for coming.

Dain,

My dictionary states that athiesm is a rejection of all religious beliefs and denies the existence of God.

How can one deny (to declare untrue) the existence of God without proof? What is your criterion? A gut feeling, a lack of satisfaction from the provided religions. Whatever, at some point you must deny the existence of God without proof or evidence, which is the definition of faith.

The discussion of whether there has to be a God or not in order to make life meaningful does not define Athiesm. Atheism simply states that there is no God. Meaning of life is a totally different avenue.

I still think you are more along my lines: God, not sure, probably not, but I still think I can lead a meaningful life anyway. You are an Agnostic.

From your post:

"No, atheism is not a faith of disbelief. It is (from dictionary.com)

The disbelief or denial of the existence of a God, or supreme intelligent Being. "


Look at your quote, remove the word "denial". The definition almost quotes my thread verbatim.

But the point is not to argue semantics. I think the term "Atheism" carries a negative connotation, one who will deny the existence of Noah and the Ark, just a vehemently as another will attest to it. Agnosticism carries a more neutral connotation- "Haven't got things figured out, but I have sense of what is right and wrong and intend to live my life that way until I figure things out. If I die in the meantime, I am sure any reasonable diety with credit me for my integrity".

In summary, I disagree with your defintion of Atheism, but that is MY INTERPRETATION of the definiton. I look at it this way, for every belief there is a mirror opposite. Athesim is the mirror opposite of Fundamentalism. Each as passionate about their beliefs as the other, both without any proof whatsoever.

I hope you can see that I am not flaming, but disagreeing. These discussions are lots of fun, even if it is the AO forum. Sometimes I learn something from a different point of view, and that makes it all worth while.

Oh, Engelstein, don't forget to pick up your Turtle Wax and Ricearoni (the San Francisco treat) on your way out. Or rather on you way back under your bridge.

[__________Maxtor 1-7]

Originally posted by ReelBigFish


im not, im a La vay -ian humanist.
out of all the major religions, islam is still best because it advocates learning, and a very peaceful attitude.

Actually, Buddhism is one of the most peaceful religions. Buddhists believe that all creatures are sacred, and that they will be resurrected as another creature depending on how moral and good they are, so any creature could be their old best friend. Also, they believe that if they are attacked by another animal, and are not killed, they should try to get away without harming it, unless absolutely necessary to get away. If they harm it they try to help it heal or helping another animal of the same species.

Christianity is, historically, the most corrupt religion that I have ever heard of. At one time they had two popes, then threatening to torture Galileo, then the inquisition, then a priest actually starts an advertising campaign (well, he had posters) to get people to pay the church condolences so St. Peters Basilica could get built quickly, then Martin Luther (the guy who started Lutheranism) got excommunicated for arguing a bit with the church (the pope sent a guy over to trick him after Luther pointed out "The priesthood of all believers", and Luther was kicked after saying there was no need for a pope since everyone was equal in the eyes of God). That’s just for starters; I can go into the early dark ages and times before that if you really insist.
The Catholic Church has always tried to look perfect, which has been its major mistake; you can't be "perfect" forever if situations change.

Now there are some religions that are just weird, a group once had nearly 3000 members whom believed they could rid themselves from sin by shaking. Another believed that they were every type of species, but unable to contact the other versions of themselves, they also believed that they had a collective soul so when one of them was killed they all died, so each member tried to find the other versions of themselves and keep them safe.
The Inca Empire believed that they had to sacrifice a person every day for the sun to rise, I guess they were wrong.


Now, the printing press wasn't around forever, was it? I believe it was first invented by the Chinese, but refused because of the massive size of the alphabet, then Martin Luther created one. Martin printed the bible in German with this. My point is, the bible was written for centuries by hand, some of the writers (who were monks) couldn't even read so they copied the symbols. If you had to copy a foreign language quickly do you think you could copy the letters exactly? The bible was most likely changed a bit after each generation, mainly by corrections by people who could read fixing what was done incorrectly by those who couldn't. To my belief, the bible is at most 75% true word-for-word, about 90-95% true through the overview of the books and chapters. That leaves a lot of room for change, doesn't it?

Who knows, Buddhism might be right after it is based on not a god, but a "saint". Buddha is said to have greatly improved China/whatever country Buddhism takes place in, and did not shoot fireballs down from the sky or flood the entire world.
Often a religion fights itself, in one part of India pigs are considered sacred while cows are in the other part, which one is right?

The Bible might turn out to be a work of literature like The Odyssey, which got thrown forward into an idea, then a belief. I personally believe religion should have stayed as an idea, which people don't fight over and can be changed without much controversy.

Many religious customs are outdated, the Catholic churches "10% of all you own" policy is useless because at that time the church was also the school and hospital at the time that was created, now those are privately owned or controlled by the government.



So, which religion is historically correct?
-There is actually a very, incredibly, amazingly complex way to find this out, and it all depends on mathematics and finding out which way light will travel after roaming space for over 2000 years. I hope you can see what I am talking about here...


If we are getting back to which country is best:
Britain held out well against Germany for a while until America came in, damn that Russia for turning on Poland. France on the other hand, ehh..., they didn't last as long...
America has a very open policy on immigration, any idiot can move to America if they want to, that doesn't mean America isn't as good because it helps people who were rejected from their old country. I, however, do get tired of some people here; lots of lowlifes take refuge in America's otherwise prosperous cities.

[___________Obergeist]

Bah
Just go by a couple of rules.
1.You're going to die sooner or later
2.Hang on by the finger nails
3.Never look down

Everything else you can make up later.

[_________________Mor]

Originally posted by Whaambulance
"And America's better than every other country. We don't need to be right."

This is why america has a bad name, arrogance, ignorance, and closed mindedness to the rest of the world. Home of the free? perhaps. Strong military? Of course. Respected in the eyes of the rest of the world? Not even close. Enemies who want them destroyed? Plenty. Huge social problems with violence, crime and lack of education? Oh yeah.

You don't seem to understand the word "respect". Everyone does indeed respect America, because it fears America. Do Americans have alot of pride? Of course. Enemies? Of course, but that don't stop America from being the most powerful.

Originally posted by Whaambulance
"
Or you could move to canada and have all the freedom, be loved by everyone, and never piss anyone off. Oh and have free healthcare ;o

Cool, we can go there and pick flowers and play with dolls while we are at it too. Who needs power?

[_________________Mor]

As for the subject of God .....................................
































































































































































He exists, because we do. To many things in the world for us to even comprehend all at the same time, and it all fits together perfectly (created). Anyone that is smart, believes in God without faith, but by the things they see around them. We make games to play, God made us.

[_________KrazyKanuck]

Originally posted by Maxtor 1-7
The Inca Empire believed that they had to sacrifice a person every day for the sun to rise, I guess they were wrong.

Until a day goes by when a murder doesn't occur then you can say thats wrong. for all we know they are right though. Sure it may not be based on logic but for all we know entirely possible. I mean isn't there a average of 2 homicides a day in NYC??? dunno if its true but thats what i had been told by someone.

[DaveDread]

Originally posted by Mor
He exists, because we do. To many things in the world for us to even comprehend all at the same time, and it all fits together perfectly (created). Anyone that is smart, believes in God without faith, but by the things they see around them. We make games to play, God made us.

That's your belief, and I respect that. I do however disagree.

Where you see a creators hand and marvels at his wisdom making all life, soil and water on Earth, I see the random forces of nature, chemistry and evolution. The fundamental forces of the universe does the trick. I believe that if you leave hydrogen atoms alone for a long time, in an enegetic environment, life will be created all by itself. I see no need for divine intervention.

[DaveDread]

As for Believers, Agnostics and Atheists, think about it from a medical point of view.

A Believer will gets his relief by believing. Just like a placebo. If a doctor looks you straight in the eye and tells you that "this is an experimental pill, not available to the public yet, but you can try it if you want to..." it will generally ease your pain. Especially if its big and colourful. It's a trick of the mind, but it works rather well.

An Agnostic is then a person looking for relief, and looks at the different alternatives. He's as likely to try herbal medicines, Aspirin, Yoga or alcohol to see what helps. He places less faith in a Doctor/Herbal Medicinist/Yoga Master/Alcoholic's words on what really helps, so he thinks about it and tries stuff out. In my old religion school book, an Agnostic is translated as a 'Searcher'.

An Atheist has a more scientific view on the painkilling issue. He's very likely to go for Aspirin, since the evidence is there that it actually works (thou why is still rather uncertain.) He realises that Herbal Medicines contains the same active chemical ingredients as synthetic painkillers, only to a lesser, more random degree, and in combination with other chemicals that might even be harmful. He believes that there are no energy centers to be stimulated with Yoga, but that the monotony and lack of sensory impressions while meditating releases painkilling hormones from a bored brain and those chemicals are very much like the ones in Aspirin.


Now, painkilling is an issue that is common in the day to day world. Apply the same line of thinking to religion, which is rather more esoteric and where you can't find any evidence.

Personally, I envy believers in a way, life seems a lot easier. But I can't just believe, just as placebos won't work on me (I was in a clinical control group a few years ago).

[DaveDread]

Originally posted by Mor
You don't seem to understand the word "respect". Everyone does indeed respect America, because it fears America. Do Americans have alot of pride? Of course. Enemies? Of course, but that don't stop America from being the most powerful.

Um, power in itself does not equal respect.
Fearing someone does not equal respecting that person.

I would respect USA a bit more if it could sign the Kyoto protocol, pay it's dues to the United Nations and removing the death penalty.

I respect people who do good, not people who can punch me in the face and keep on telling me so.

Oh, and you do realise that while USA has the largest industry/military/powerful economy it won't last forever?

The 'leader-of-the-world' position has changed many many times over the years, as it will change many many times in the future. Next up for world 'leadership' is most likely China, current estimates is that it will assume that position in 10-15 years.

[____________JLefrere]

"Every country has its problems. EVERY country. That's because every country has people in it and humanity is composed of a hell of a lot of idiots.

There are individuals that I like. But I'm not too fond of humanity in general. So I really don't give a damn what country you're from. It's the individuals that count.

As to religion, same thing. Religions would be fine if they weren't full of people. It's the people who do stupid things in the name of religion that are the problem."

I agree with that completely. What you said about religion though, I half-agree with, as most religious ideals are good, but unless everyone goes by the same ideals and way of life, religion will never work, and there will still be problems in the world. That will never happen because people may be brought up to believe in one faith, or will choose a faith that they think is right, or they might just choose to be an atheist. Hmm. That was quite pessimistic.

Someone said something like "guess who saved yer ass in WW2", to which I reply: Hey, (whoever made that post), are you a WWII veteran? Did you help defeat nazi germany? Or was it just people who live/lived
in your country? What I am saying is I don't think an individual has the right to be proud in what other people have done, if they come from their country, because they are just people, you just happen to come from the same nation.

Hobbes said something like "If you hate me because I'm an American then that's pretty arrogant", well Hobbes, I don't hate you, because you seem like a smart person, who doesn't seem to assume that their country can never be wrong. I wouldn't hate someone just because they are from the US. I just disagree with people who believe that their country is the uber-uber-country, and can never be wrong, whatever the country. My mate is really patriotic, but I don't hate him. I just disagree with his views. Giving an arguement contrary to someone else's doesn't mean I hate them.

[____________JLefrere]

DaveDread's post regarding Mor's post:

That's your belief, and I respect that. I do however disagree.

Where you see a creators hand and marvels at his wisdom making all life, soil and water on Earth, I see the random forces of nature, chemistry and evolution. The fundamental forces of the universe does the trick. I believe that if you leave hydrogen atoms alone for a long time, in an enegetic environment, life will be created all by itself. I see no need for divine intervention.

I agree with that completely, but I can't help but not respect people's views on their religion that I believe are wrong, esp. the christian view of how the universe was created etc. However, I definitely do respect the good deeds to society and 3rd world countries people do with their religion, e.g. christian aid.

[____________JLefrere]

I can't believe how out of hand this post got. Probably mostly my fault

[DaveDread]

hehe grats man. 8)

[_______________Intra]

wow,
someone spells a word wrong and we go from country bashing to religious and spiritual debate

did that for years... not going to do it here though


interesting

[______________hobbes]

Out of hand, this thread is great. Keep it going! If I wasn't so late for work...

[crazyhorse]

Originally posted by Mor
As for the subject of God .....................................

"God is a concept by which we measure our pain." ---John Lennon

[Whiterrabbit]

the three things you should never discuss:

sex
religion
politics

only one left...

and its still spelt organisation, i bet your starting to regret the title of this thread arent you?

[________DarkGatherer]

Hey ReelBigFish I dont think you have the right to flame him for "organization" when you yourself makes a spelling error in the next post, I quote your madeup work "dramastically" Now is this supposed to be Dramatically or Drastically?