Conflicting Loyalties

[_________Vadimoridin]

Dr Jaklin Jones, Field Medic

Dont forget your own words Blackpetal - Not to judge the whole by the actions you see - or ifthose arnt your words, thats definatly what your actions with Omni in exile are putting across, at least to me

You see the face the Unredeemed have put to the world, have you been farther then their gardens? None of us have. I believe there is more to the Shadowlands and these two races than we believe - and i dont know about you, but perhaps your Redeemed allies have told you the story of Thran and his Brother?

If not, you should look into it. Or i shall recite it for you if you wish? But i do not know if the redeemed would speak of it, for it paints an Unredeemed in a flattering light, and a redeemed in the same.

[Demenzia]

Just explain one thing to me then: why, if they are so "good" and prone to "redemption", do tha Redeemed systematically aggress those who dun't bear their 'Redeemed' little affiliation. I mean, please, dun't tell me "kill 'em all, God will recognize those who are his", cuz it dusn't speak of compassion and charity to me. One would expect differently from creatures that are supposed to be so "good". That wasn't "reticence", that was clear hostility. And dun't tell me also that "tha Redeemed do tha same" and some stinky "it's yer fault Jenae"; most often they're tha ones who attack first, and if I'm supposed to be led to believe in their... uhm... "faith?" this way, well that's a pretty bad way of initiating conversation.

Redemed, Unredeemed... where's tha difference. Where's tha point. Different races putting up with tha same ole' fight, having done tha same ole' crap, and nuthing more. Tha only one in tha Shadowlands I've ever been able to talk to and agree with was Ergo, and to be honest - I'm growing tired of this constant bickering 'bout good, evil, faith, redemption and whatcrap.

What sickens me is all this preaching. It reeks of hypocrisy, just as anything and anyone usually invoking tha name of "God" to justify their acts.

[Blackpetal]

I'm amazed by this persistent fantasy that to be "good" one must be pacificistic, and, in fact, tactically idiotic. While, of course, the Redeemed and all those who hold life dear would prefer peace to war, evil triumphs when the good do nothing. Destroying those tainted with the devil's stench is one of the first mandates of a good and righteous person.

There is no obligation for the good to parlay with evil. There is no obligation for good to allow itself to be attacked first before defending itself and that which it holds dear. I find the expectation that it would to be...naive, to say the least.

-Blackpetal

[Demenzia]

<quirks an eyebrow>

"Destroying those tainted with the devil's stench is one of the first mandates of a good and righteous person"? Oh boy, I wouldn't be able to look at myself ever again if I were to state *that* one day.

Why does this woman always need to destroy her little credibility with such stupid sentences, I wonder....

<shrugs>

[Blackpetal]

An admitted weakness for slight hyperbole in my rhetoric hardly undermines either my credibility OR the fundamental truth of what I am saying. I think it says a lot about the strength of my arguments that you are forced to try to undermine the messenger rather than confronting the message.

<mirrors Demenzia's shrug>

[Kithraks]

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster....when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..." -Friedrich Nietzsche-

Then you have become the very monster against which you claim to fight. You have shown pettiness, been cruel, hated the Unredeemed and pursue your cause with the zeal and greed of power in makeing sure that 'your side' wins.

That is why I fail to see a cause for fighting between Omni-Tek and the Clans. In the end, the more things change, the more they(human nature) stay the same. The names may change but the result is the same. You are just a pawn on the grand chessboard of the Redeemed's machinations.

[Blackpetal]

Originally posted by Kithrak


Then you have become the very monster against which you claim to fight. You have shown pettiness, been cruel, hated the Unredeemed and pursue your cause with the zeal and greed of power in makeing sure that 'your side' wins.

In psychology, Charles, we call what you've done "projection"--the assigning of motives to others that are, in fact, our own. I point this out to you in hopes that you may learn to recognize the behavior in yourself and correct it, as it casts you in a most unfavorable light.

-Blackpetal

[Kithraks]

I keep that quote around as a self-reminder to not do what you are doing. Your responses so far have been fairly consistent with what many would associate with concepts of being....overzealous and useing a belief system to self-justify. Just pointing out the obvious.

[Demenzia]

Wanna know why I won't even bother "confronting tha message"? Cuz everytime, tha answers, once read between tha lines, come back to tha same point, which is kinda a moot one.

To tell tha truth, I had begun to give ya a proper answer, then I realized that it was a waste of my time. But if ya really want a summary of it, basically, it said: "good or evil, they act tha same way, same basket fer me, no justification actually does hold water".

Take whatcha want outta this. If this can't be unnerstood in one sentence, it ain't three paragraphs that'll explain it better.

[Blackpetal]

Originally posted by Demenzia
Wanna know why I won't even bother "confronting tha message"? Cuz everytime, tha answers, once read between tha lines, come back to tha same point, which is kinda a moot one.

To tell tha truth, I had begun to give ya a proper answer, then I realized that it was a waste of my time. But if ya really want a summary of it, basically, it said: "good or evil, they act tha same way, same basket fer me, no justification actually does hold water".

Take whatcha want outta this. If this can't be unnerstood in one sentence, it ain't three paragraphs that'll explain it better.

I understand the sentence, but I don't know how you can believe it to be true. To say that the Redeemed and Unredeemed "act the same way" is patently and demonstrably false. To judge them by the similarity of their actions in WAR hardly does justice to the larger picture of what each faction represents. Both Charles and I employ mind-control in the execution of our duties. That hardly makes us the same. To examine actions without looking at motivation is to miss the point entirely.

-Blackpetal

[Blackpetal]

Originally posted by Kithrak
I keep that quote around as a self-reminder to not do what you are doing. Your responses so far have been fairly consistent with what many would associate with concepts of being....overzealous and useing a belief system to self-justify. Just pointing out the obvious.

My belief system is not a justification. It is a code of conduct by which I act, based on the facts at hand.

-Blackpetal

[Kithraks]

Originally posted by Demenzia
But if ya really want a summary of it, basically, it said: "good or evil, they act tha same way, same basket fer me, no justification actually does hold water".

I'm not sure if you are supporting or refuteing what I am saying but that is a reasonable explaination of what I meant. There are few things that are absolute besides mathematics.(1+1 will always be '2' absoloute in base 10.) Killing is killing, Omni or Clan, Redeemed or Unredeemed. How can one possibly say X killing Y is 'good' and Y killing X is 'not good' when the action is the same? Except for the act of killing by itself, everything else associated with the right or wrongness of it is entirely subjective.

In that respect, no action can ever be absoloutely good or evil. The only thing that is absoloute was the act itself took place.

That is why I contest Blackpetal's beliefs that her actions were 'good' and that pursueing her cause as being 'right'. At best one can aggree that she is only able to think that her actions were for good. Most human civilizations have laws against murder/killing. Blackpetal's act of killing anyone related to the 'Unredeemed' by direct or indirect association as being right is subjective. But our laws punish the act of killing and saying that it was in pursuit of a higher cause(Who'll save Omni-Tek again?) will not hold well in a trial.

This should also shed light on why I strongly disaggree when the Clans say that they are 'right/good' and that Omni-Tek are 'wrong/evil.'

[Demenzia]

Hmmm... My sentence was actually addressed to Ms Schuemann, but given what ya say, I suppose that we both quite agree, Mr Houston.

As fer answering this other point raised - how can I believe it is true? Fer tha simple reason that at this point, causes dun't matter anymore. Once causes are stripped over, it's still all tha same old "a mean to an end". There's no good nor evil in this - only conflicts of interest.

[Blackpetal]

Originally posted by Demenzia
As fer answering this other point raised - how can I believe it is true? Fer tha simple reason that at this point, causes dun't matter anymore. Once causes are stripped over, it's still all tha same old "a mean to an end". There's no good nor evil in this - only conflicts of interest.

"Causes don't matter anymore"? Well, that's awfully convenient. I wonder why I didn't get the memo. Can you tell me when they stopped mattering and why? I must say, this comment sheds tremendous light for me on your jaded self-absorption... Suddenly, I feel like I understand you much better, Jenae. My condolences on whatever
event it was that triggered your retreat from the world like this...

-Blackpetal

[Blackpetal]

Originally posted by Kithrak


I'm not sure if you are supporting or refuteing what I am saying but that is a reasonable explaination of what I meant. There are few things that are absolute besides mathematics.(1+1 will always be '2' absoloute in base 10.) Killing is killing, Omni or Clan, Redeemed or Unredeemed. How can one possibly say X killing Y is 'good' and Y killing X is 'not good' when the action is the same? Except for the act of killing by itself, everything else associated with the right or wrongness of it is entirely subjective.

In that respect, no action can ever be absoloutely good or evil. The only thing that is absoloute was the act itself took place.

That is why I contest Blackpetal's beliefs that her actions were 'good' and that pursueing her cause as being 'right'. At best one can aggree that she is only able to think that her actions were for good. Most human civilizations have laws against murder/killing. Blackpetal's act of killing anyone related to the 'Unredeemed' by direct or indirect association as being right is subjective. But our laws punish the act of killing and saying that it was in pursuit of a higher cause(Who'll save Omni-Tek again?) will not hold well in a trial.

This should also shed light on why I strongly disaggree when the Clans say that they are 'right/good' and that Omni-Tek are 'wrong/evil.'

As usual, Charles, you point out only what is convenient to you and ignore the larger facts of the matter. We don't live in a pitri dish being scrutinized by scientists. We live in a subjective world of our own making, subject to our laws and the divine laws of heaven. To start talking about "absolute good" and "absolute evil" is to draw the discussion off into a hypothetical realm where the laws of reality don't apply. Whether or not there exists an "absolute good" and "absolute evil" somewhere in the cosmos is immaterial to the discussion we are having right now. As moral beings, we have it within our power to judge good and evil for ourselves, and there are principles, commonly agreed upon, which determine what is good and what is evil. There is no need for the mathematical certainty you are discussing.

We can look at the Redeemed and Unredeemed through the lense of our own morality and STILL conclude that they are "good" and "evil" respectively. Putting aside the issue of warfare, which may force even the most righteous of men to perform unpleasant tasks, if we look at these two cultures, we see one, the Redeemed, with a dedication to preserving and sustaining life, nurturing and caring for humanity and the larger world in which they live, and minding the word of God. In the Unredeemed, we find a streak of cruelty that leads to "pragmatism" of the most brutal sort, **** of the land, and an almost infinite capacity to inflict harm on living things if it advances their own cause. This is evil, and if you don't judge it so, then you are as damned as those demons.

-Blackpetal

[Demenzia]

*simply sighs and shakes her head*

I ain't retired myself from this world. Think twice b'fore talking. If I had, I wouldn't even bother reading this.

Though... I wonder. It's turning sour, it ain't leading anywhere, and frankly, at this point, I feel like whoever points at tha moon, everybody still goes on looking at tha finger.

[Kithraks]

*shrugs*

I don't worship or believe in any divine entities to make any judgements of morals. You may subjectively believe in imaginary things on faith alone but from an empirical point of view your cause is flawed at a fundamental level. You are free to continue to pursue your cause as long as it does not interfere with Omni-Tek. Failure to do so at which point you will become 'evil' for attempting to impose/force your belief system on employees that do not share your views.

[Blackpetal]

You can be quite certain that I'm going to "interfere" with Omni-Tek. And I WILL cleanse my beloved corporation. I'm not surprised you find this threatening, Charles, but the masses will see that I am doing good.

God save Omni-Tek!

-Blackpetal

[LLJKTonitrum]

This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

You want to talk about "evil", Ms. Blackpetal? Let's talk about that. Let's talk about people who would destroy innocent children simply because of the jobs their parents hold. Let's talk about people who murder thousands and call it "righteousness" and "justice". You want evil? Don't get me started on it.

Ask yourself something. Look at the actions of the Clans. Look into Simon Silverstone's eyes, and ask him what he would do to Omni-1 given the chance.

Then ask yourself why the "Redeemed" would support such a monster.

No. I've seen evil, Ms. Blackpetal. And the Unredeemed are not it.

[Blackpetal]

Originally posted by Akaran
This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

You want to talk about "evil", Ms. Blackpetal? Let's talk about that. Let's talk about people who would destroy innocent children simply because of the jobs their parents hold. Let's talk about people who murder thousands and call it "righteousness" and "justice". You want evil? Don't get me started on it.

*yawn* You're boring me already Mr. Kent, but alright. Let's talk about this. Can you point to something I have said or done that indicates to you that I endorse either destruction of children or mass murderers? Please provide a link.

Originally posted by Akaran
Ask yourself something. Look at the actions of the Clans. Look into Simon Silverstone's eyes, and ask him what he would do to Omni-1 given the chance.

Then ask yourself why the "Redeemed" would support such a monster.

While you are providing the link requested above, please also show me evidence that Silverstone has ANYTHING to do with the Redeemed. For that matter, since we're looking at the "actions of the Clans," would you please be specific regarding the Clans to which you are referring? I would also like you to demonstrate my link to the organization or organizations in question. After all, I've never claimed Clan affiliation AT ALL, so I surely should be made aware of any Clan to which I am apparently connected.

Oh, and one more thing: please show me where I have ever done anything but condemn Silverstone as a criminal and a monster. Again, a link, if you please. My views have been well documented on the Grid, so I'm sure you will have no trouble providing these...

...except that I've never MADE any of the claims you seem to be suggesting. God, you people don't listen at all! I've had more fruitful discussions with brickwalls...

-Blackpetal