Council Of Truth: Reformation First Steps

[Editor: FJRK]

Council Of Truth: Reformation First Steps
The CoT Clerical Staff

As of today, December 23rd 29477, a preliminary number of representatives from each supportive clan has been decided by unanimous decison of the Clerical Staff with the advice of Mr. Radiman.

Each clan can have two representatives - one main rep and one vice rep.

The leaders of the supportive clans should send CoT Gridforums Administrator Miss Jenae "Tussa" Godfray a private message through the CoT Gridforums naming their two representatives to be. Names of the representatives will be posted publicly in the forums. If the leader cannot access this gridfeed, we require the name of the leader, so the gridforum crew can contact him/her to ask confirmation and rep names.

Leaders who wish to have a voice in the Council of Truth must be careful in their choice of representatives, as they will represent their clan and will have the right to vote in Council matters.

Each Clan, regardless of their size, will have one vote. This is to assure equality among all clans. Only one representative can be present during a meeting. If a representative is unable to decide on a vote during the meeting, the vote will be declared as 'abstained' and it will not count either as pro or con in the voting process.

Envoys have been sent to the following former CoT clans to ask their leaders if they wish to rejoin and support the new CoT: New Dawn, Gaia, Terra Firma, Vanguard, Pilgrims, The Knights, Sentinels.

We expect official answers from each clan in the coming weeks as each leader is likely to deliberate and seek the counsel of their advisors before answering.

Currently no Spokesman for the new CoT has been appointed, however we have found nobody better qualified than Mr. Radiman at this time due to his many years of service and experience.

In regards to the arrest warrants issued in the recent weeks, we believe that Omni-Tek sub Departments and Detachments are looking to stop the reformation of a new Council of Truth for political and military reasons.

The Clerical Staff does not recognize the arrest warrants to be legal, and officially request that they be revoked as soon as possible.

The Council of Truth will once again become the governing body of the clan, to seek a peaceful resolution to the conflict if possible, and to unite the clans for a better tomorrow.

We hope that clan leaders take a step forward and have the voice of their clan counted in the CoT. It is expected that clans will take a few weeks to decide if to join the new CoT, and which representative would stand for their organization.

This is the first step toward the reformation of a new Council of Truth, the future is now in the hands of the clans, and their leaders.

Sincerely,

The CoT Clerical Staff

[Vixentrox]

These are the first baby steps of a reborn Council of Truth. I encourage all leaders and their designated representative to participate in what hopefully become a more down to earth and closer to the people style Council of Truth. So, please forward Miss Godfray you selection for your Clan's representative. More information will be forthcoming as the Clerical Staff continues to organize and lay the foundations for a better Council.

[Cemetarygate]

Originally posted by Editor: FJRK
Each Clan, regardless of their size, will have one vote. This is to assure equality among all clans.

Why does a guild of one hold as much voting power as a guild of more than six hundred?

Should not the guild of one count as one vote, and a guild of more than 600 count as more than 600 votes?

Would one of the CoT Clerical Staff mind explaining the supposed equality, because quite frankly I'm not seeing any equality. What we are seeing is that a larger groups voting power are being silenced for whatever reason the CoT Clerical Staff has yet made public. The clans are due this information. However, the reasoning behind this is irrelevant.

The important matter is that not everyone is being guaranteed an equal voice. What good are the voices of six hundred people when you give one person as much voting power? Should these 600 people also form their own guilds so each of their votes count? Where is democracy?

[Windguaerd]

We discussed this in length.

If 3-4 of the larger clans joined the CoT, they could easily take control of the CoT if the voting was based on number of members per clan. Even if they didn't, it would be very tempting for smaller clans to merge with the intention to gain control in the voting process.

One vote, one clan.

We have thought about the fact of a large clan splitting into different smaller clans to gain more votes. However we see that scenario less likely to happen, since a large clan would make itself weaker by splitting their members into different guilds...weakening themselves in power and perhaps even losing members over such move while clans merging together would become stronger...a more likely thing to happen.

One of the problems the original CoT had was the fact that only the strongest and largest clans were in it, the smaller clans had no real voice inside the Council, and to get invited to the CoT building was a matter of luck.

The new CoT wishes to include large and small clans, to be a true democratic system in which ever clan's voice is equal and has a vote.

Mr. Kerans, your clan has 100 registered members, how would you feel if a good and worthy cause which your members support and the mayority of the clans do...is completely turned on it's back because 30 clans (including yours) were outweighted by 3 or 4 clans due to the number of members they had?

Yes, the larger clans have the muscle, but that doesn't make them any better than a small clan which fights just as hard for our freedom.

It will be the wisdom and experience of clan leaders and clan representatives which will lead the CoT, the head must make the decisions...not the arms or legs.

How strong is the voice of a person with 600 men behind him against one with perhaps one or two people in his clan in the Council Chambers? will the representatives consider wisdom, experience, strength? all?

It will be up to each representative to see what is best of the clans as a whole, not only his own.

Feel free to join the CoT Mr. Kerans, your voice will be welcomed.

Sincerely

[Andross]

Ignoring the facts of the past, as usual. Unless Mr. Ross himself revokes the warrants, they will stay effective. Especially to Henry Radiman, we have some questions that require answers.

Hopefully the large clans will not join this "council", for it will cost them their power, which some of them have. It is the people like Windguaerd who hang their flag in the wind to get a position of influence - surprising enough that he gives up his clan, reforms it and now is part of this council. Unstable members such as this were the reason for the old council's fall. They fled the council when times got rough. I have no doubts that history will repeat itself, should this council truly come into existence.

As I said earlier... expect Radiman to be arrested, should he be seen in Omni-Tek territory.

[Fixerben]

Originally posted by Cemetarygate


Why does a guild of one hold as much voting power as a guild of more than six hundred?

Should not the guild of one count as one vote, and a guild of more than 600 count as more than 600 votes?

Would one of the CoT Clerical Staff mind explaining the supposed equality, because quite frankly I'm not seeing any equality. What we are seeing is that a larger groups voting power are being silenced for whatever reason the CoT Clerical Staff has yet made public. The clans are due this information. However, the reasoning behind this is irrelevant.

The important matter is that not everyone is being guaranteed an equal voice. What good are the voices of six hundred people when you give one person as much voting power? Should these 600 people also form their own guilds so each of their votes count? Where is democracy?

Gonna have to say that I agree with Windguaerd, he put it wuite succinctly.

And I most likely will not be participating in the CoT personally.
((Cant dual log Fixerben, and Benjacrat))

[Cemetarygate]

Commander, first let me take this moment to thank you for replying to my concerns, and to wish the best during the holiday seasons.

Second, my response to your statement.

Larger organizations diminished all, if not most, of the smaller organizations voting power in the original CoT. We both recognize this as one of the past problems. The other problem of the original CoT was their drive for peace above anything and everything else, but that's another matter I won't get into at this time.

The solution, however, is not shifting the voting power in favor of smaller guilds. That is, 30 smaller organizations, composed of 100 members each, granted 30 votes. While, 5 larger organizations, composed of 600 members each, granted 5 votes. 30 against 5 is hardly just, balanced and I'm not certain anyone can call that democracy.

Just a little something extra for the larger organizations to make them feel like their word actually means something more, which by the numbers doesn't amount to anything. The larger organizations would have no real voice, and quite similarly be treated in the same fashion as the smaller organizations of yesterday. The smaller organizations of today would be no better than the larger organizations of yesterday for handling voting procedures with this method.

On the other hand, 30 smaller organizations, composed of 100 members each, granted 3,000 votes. 5 larger organizations, composed of 600 members each, granted 3,000 votes. 3,000 against 3,000 is just, balanced and democracy. Everyone has an equal say and power. For the record, I'm not sure why anyone would be against this method, as this way certainly stands for more equality than the one being proposed.

Of course, the numbers I've used are not accurate, but I'd be willing to wager a few credits that the actual number of smaller guild members are about equal, if not more, than the number of larger guild members.

You said it yourself, Commander. The smaller guilds only voice in the original CoT amounted to luck. They had no real voice. So, the solution is simple. Give smaller guilds the voice they never had. Nothing more. Nothing less.

On a side note, I don't mean to conclude, or imply, in anyway that The CoT Clerical Staff intended to grant smaller organizations enhanced voting power, based on the fact that there are more smaller organizations, over larger organizations. Probably a coincidence this method was chosen.

On a final note, I'm glad to see what was promissed some time ago to be made public, but not so happy to see how unjustly certain members of our beloved clan community being treated. For the hope and future of our clans I hope equality among our people can be made reality and look forward to partaking in a CoT that will make this come to pass.

[Fixerben]

Cem, Unfortunately the fact still remains that a guild of 600 people, and lets say everyone 20 person get 1 vote. So that gives the big guild 30 votes. Now the small guild, lets say the guild has 100 people, that guild gets 5 votes. In a majority ruling situation this eliminates all the small guilds even if they all vote the same way. 5 to 20, means the 20 have it. Now, Lets do this again the way it works now. The 2 guilds both have 1 vote. They vote, its simple. Either both vote the same, or against each other. Now that they both have an equal say no one gets ignored. No ons is shown favor, and everything is fair and equal.

And the point you were trying to make about alrger organizations being treated the same as the smaller organizations of yesterday is exactly the point. All the guilds have equal say. Thats the point of democracy equality.

[Cemetarygate]

Mr. Earlson, I fully respect and understand how the vote looks and works on a micro level. However, please broaden your example to macro and adjust your conclusions accordingly.

[Nepenthea]

If you step back a moment and really think about it...

Wanting a larger clan to have 'more power and say' than a smaller clan, can be likened to Omni-Tek having more power and say than Clan does. Isn't that what you don't want to nurture?

Read the book Animal Farm by George Orwell to understand this dynamic, and the stunning irony, of this type of logic and thinking.

Be well.

[Fixerben]

Originally posted by Cemetarygate
Mr. Earlson, I fully respect and understand how the vote looks and works on a micro level. However, please broaden your example to macro and adjust your conclusions accordingly.

Even when you multiply this to a larger scale, its still fair. Everyone has an equal say. Each guild has equal say, and equal weight. Thats how its supposed to be. Rule by numbers is not democracy. The more people, the more votes you get, that isnt equal at all. When everyones voice carries the same weight, that is equal, and that is Democracy.

[Raveleet]

Hmmnn same amount of votes regardless of members is kinda like having an election and giving all parties that passes the minimum percentage an equal number of votes.

Allthough there is a issue with larger organisations steamrolling over the smaller ones, doing this also makes each induvidials in the larger organisations opinions count less than the opinions of those in smaller organisations.

I would do it like this.
Organisations with 50 or less members 1 vote
Organisations with 51-100 members 2 votes
Organisations with 101-200 members 3 votes
Organisations with 201-400 members 4 votes
Organisations with 400+ members 5 votes

This would still give the smaller organisations a substantial influence without minimicing the value of the larger organisations members.

[Aulial]

I've sent several memos to my superior, Mister Ross concerning this and other matters. Rest assured as stated by the Omni-Pol head above, these warrants will remain.

[Cemetarygate]

Originally posted by Benjacrat
Even when you multiply this to a larger scale, its still fair.

Incorrect, because there is not an equal ratio of small to large guilds in this exact situation.

Why are you ignoring the fact that the number of smaller guilds are greater than larger guilds?

Originally posted by Benjacrat
Everyone has an equal say. Each guild has equal say, and equal weight.

Everyone doesn't have a say when you tell them that only one person among their group will count.

Originally posted by Benjacrat
Rule by numbers is not democracy. The more people, the more votes you get, that isnt equal at all. When everyones voice carries the same weight, that is equal, and that is Democracy.

You're neglecting the part of democracy that states "majority rule."

Your position is questionable, Mr. Earlson. You've ignored facts and clearly do not understand democratic proceedings. This proves you are ignorant to number of guilds and people on Rub-Ka, you have not been educated fully to understand the various governmental forms, you serve to grant smaller guilds more power or possibly enjoy arguing and will use incorrect information to maintain the debate. I suspect a little of all four apply in your case.

Raveleet, your electorial voting suggestion is more acceptable. Perhaps one vote per every fifty, or twenty-five, members? I would concure to something of that nature.

However, diminishing the voices of six hundred people to almost nothing is absurd and I find the idea offensive even though I am not the leader of a large organization. Our people deserve to be treated as equally and fairly as possible.

[Raveleet]

Originally posted by Cemetarygate
However, diminishing the voices of six hundred people to almost nothing is absurd and I find the idea offensive even though I am not the leader of a large organization. Our people deserve to be treated as equally and fairly as possible. [/B]

Couldn't agree more.

A linear progression would also work if a reasonable number could be set, I think 25 is a tad low something between 50 and 100 should work though.

(( The reason I choice an expansive model is the nature of guild size in AO, a set number of vote like ie one vote per fifty member would work if there only was one character per account, however when taking alts into account the size of a guild grows expansionable with number of members and not linear, and thus I though an expansionable model for distrubuting votes would ensure most fairness.
IE let's say a guild of 50 chars has something between 20-30 chars, a guild with 150 chars doesn't have to have more than 50-60 members. I know in a RP sense each alt is a real person, but I still feel this model would be most fair.

Apologies for going OOC but explaining this IC became too hard for me))

[Windguaerd]

I shall once again state, that currently every CoT Clan will have ONE vote.

Making constructive suggestions is good, but unless either you join the CoT or your clan joins the CoT and sends a representative to WORK within the CoT, I personally see no reason to change the voting as it is now. For any changes to be made, a clan needs to be INVOLVED with the CoT.

If a clan with 600 members does nothing but sit in the Council and makes no contribution while a small clan of 50 works hard to improve the CoT and it's influence for a better future...why should a larger clan hold more voting power?

One clan, one vote.

I understand Raveleet's opinion, however we're not running an election for Council seats. The CoT will be formed of individuals who REPRESENT their clan and will have an EQUAL voice with fellow representatives to reach agreements on decisions to improve the life of our people, and to help ALL clans in a fair way.

Have a happy holiday everyone.

[Raveleet]

Maybe the reason none of the major clans want to support this new Council is this very rule?

Giving one vote regardless of size is nothing but elitism and snobbery from the smaller clans. An easy way to get more influence than they deserve.

As long as this rule stands this will be nothing more than a wannabe leadership of the clans.

If the council truly want to serve the people as they claim, they need to recognise the people and make every single clanner count equally. That is democracy.

And to the one saying read the ancient book Animal Farm, I have done that and there is one quote that fits this rule very wall.

All is equal, but some are more equal than others.

((It is very true that the very biggest clans are not too concerned with RP atm, but alot have been but lost interest as the storyline died. But I am not talking about these, there are RP clans with 200+ members and there are RP clans with 10 members, these are the clans I am talking about.
But don't forget that there is also RP guilds with massive member numbers. In the EG alliance alone there is 4 guilds with more than 200 members each, Unity of the Rose being the biggest with 360 members.
I'll sign up on CoT forums and discuss this there..no reason to go more OOC than I allready have in this forum.

PS!
This project got my full support if this can give RP in AO a vitamin injection, these thread is worth it's bytes in creds.
*x-mas hugs* ))

[Cogs]

((Rave, I dont know that there are any EG guilds that so far have any problems with this 1 vote rule. My guild is 230+, and we are fine with it. For starters, read Wind's post again, its about RP. Do you think this CoT will make any "real" impact on things? No, we will be an RP tool, influencing matters with the help of a guided hand. Instead of bickering about this 1 vote thing, get with the RP aspect of this, and lets make it happen. I really dont buy that "elitism and snobbery" comment, and find it hard to beleive that I have to see this ty0pe of argumentation in a matter that so clearly is not "elitism and snobbery". This is to bring some fun back, kick the ole story line in the arse, and get things moving. In addition, I fail to see what you are so afraid of.....anyone not wanting this 1 vote? What are you afraid of?
I fully support the 1 vote, this is not real life, all Clans are equal and should also be seen as equal by their fellow clans, no matter how big or small. It is in the Clanner spirit.....free, equal spirits..lets move on in that spirit please ))

[Cemetarygate]

Have to join to be equal, but technically no one will have equal voting unless their number of guild members are equal to everyone else. Storm will have their vote count as 1/627. My members will their vote count as 1/101. Deliverance will have their vote count as 1/1. 1/627 equals 1/101 equals 1/1? Why join if no one is truely granted equality?

Now, I'm sure some people will conclude, by my statements, that I am against people joining the Council of Truth. This is not so. I am for the Council of Truth, but I am against how the CoT Clerical Staff has chosen to handle what they believe to be equal and fair. Unless this changes, no one will have an equal voice.

So, I encourage everyone to join the Council of Truth and make equality their primary focus. After equality is obtained then we can move onto other matters.

(( To all, I understand why "one clan, one vote" was done, and it does make alot of sense from an OOC viewpoint. However, in character the idea is pretty borked (as shown above). So, know that I say thumbs up to "one clan, one vote" OOC, but IC I have to fight it. Please, no one take anything I do IC personally. ))

[Andross]

Maybe looking at the democracies we have on our own home today (OOC btw) would be a good idea. Also.. the system the European Union uses is quite fair :>