Players Council Meeting Info

[RandaZ]

Kirrana, Snowy does makes a good comment in that last post about how this council needs to be careful in portraying itself. Obviously, a lot of people already seem to have a misconception and are ballying-forth the banners of truth and justice

But aside from that, does anyone have the nagging feeling that we're shooting the horse dead before it even breaks its legs?


And finally, at the risk of going blue in the face saying this over and over again, if you think Cz and Cosmik will go into hiding when SIGs appear, just take a look at Agent Sector and the agent community.


Tap

[Kithraks]

The bureaucratic community hasn't had a peep from anyone from FC for several months and only responded with things to the effect of saying "Hi, I'm still alive!" kind of posts it makes me wonder if they even really pay attention.

By the same token maybe they ARE listening to us but can't show their faces at the risk of having everyone try to pull outrageous stunts just for attention. They are darned if they listen and they are darned if they don't.

[_______________Cayll]

Well I actually don't mind being targetted by you and your 'circle' because I bring these things on by making my opinions known, I don't really need to add much, Snowy and Cruel have said pretty much everything I have been thinking, however you talk of your events, I have personally, nor have any of the other well known guild leaders I have spoken to about this, ever heard of one of your events, so advertise better, aim towards the existing leaders and let them tell thier guilds, word of mouth goes a long way. Also on another point, I have taken part in, and planned several events where GM/ARK have seen the response from the player base who were attending and have jumped in, if you show them that you can plan and execute these events, they will assist you every time.

I know my methods of opposition to your concepts may not be to your liking, but as far as meetings like that go, they are usually 1 sided and that is aimed towards the speaker.

All I am saying and have been trying to say is plan your own events, do your own thing, you don't need things to be Funcom sanctioned, it's roleplaying, if you need a green name to roleplay then you are in the wrong type of game.

I hate to say this but "If you build it, they will come" :P

Cayll

[_____________Kirrana]

Funny you should say about the guild leaders most of I think are aware of my events, we had a guild leaders meeting only a few week ago.

Plus I know meister, azazzel, methlon, kithrath, lovekitten, Drsheep, Baxie, Gestava, Bonefish, etc and many more have been to at least on event some where even regular. Not to mention the number of GM's and Arks who cant help but stopping by if thongs and beer and girls will be there

Cayll as you asked so nicely I will list a few links so you can see the events. I can also give you a list of names to contact should you wish to get more info. Basically at one point we had an event about once week or so. I must admit from easter this as not been the case due to personal reasons I have decided to stop doing events. The timing of this is good as my old friend Lev Rivers whom I sort of took over from when he leaft has come back.


http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...threadid=17010

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...threadid=15693

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...threadid=13454

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...threadid=12917

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...&threadid=9109

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...&threadid=4839

There that should be enough to get you started if you want to see details of the other events I will be happy to help.


I would also be interested in what events you have planned, I am a reporter in Omni-Tek and I have missed them so far. I would be interested in covering them for the news site.

Kirrana
http://omni-tek.tripod.com/index2.html

[Red Falcon]

What a concept, volunteer organizations committed to representing the playerbase.

Sounds like you should just join ARK, Kirrana. And be under nondisclosure when participating in events and story elements.

Otherwise this is just political wrangling to get inside information and elevated power for yourself.

[_______________Intra]

My opinions (posted in a calm and civilised manner.. just thought i would mention it incase anyone wants to jump to conclusions)

I do appreciate the effort that the players are putting in.
I do dissagree with the concept of a player run council though for many of the reasons stated.

one of the things I would like to point out...
the council already exsists in the form of Cz, Dai-galean and Cosmik.
we are community members and they are community leaders.
we give our concerns and feedback to them through this board, through IRC, through email through player run fan sites. They take those concerns to the devs.
these forums do get read and I often feel sorry for Cosmik who has to trall through it all to get information.

I say...
instead of creating yet another middle man, we should make an effort to find a way to streamline the methods of communication already put in place.
a way to help them out, go to the 'community corner' forum and post your suggestions of ways that this board could be streamlined. ask how we can help them to help us.

Funcom do need to talk to us more, that much is obvious. They have already given us the methods to use to talk to them.
we just need to get an organised way of getting information back from them.

for instance, go back to the weekly reports that used to be posted.
every week we could get a summary from the devs on where they are on certain issues
and where they are looking for in the future.

a trusted and voted in member of each profession could be given powers to delete things like bumps and create a sticky thread through which they post all of the concerns that have been raised that week.

this streamlines the information in that, it is a one stop place for the devs to look, it removes bumps and duplications

I dont think an in game council that exsists on 1 of the 2 soon to be 3 dimensions will work out correctly.
the tools are here for us to use already.. I just think we need to work out how to use them

[_____________Kasimir]

/applause Intra

[_____________Kirrana]

Great Intra,

If FC where doing the things you suggest my idea of the council would not be required. Sadly its not happing and you putting it on the board does not seem to help.

Maybe my idea will, in fact it already has it seems people are waking up to the fact FC are not taking to us. They are not doing things in the game we expected this much is clear and demostrated by this post. Hardly anyone has disagreed things could get better, but I have waited 4 months for things to turn around, I posred on the boards, I sent e-mails I talked to FC nothing.

I started the idea of the council two weeks ago and funny enough we had an event on Monday. If nothing else this idea has woken FC up to the problems in ways posting on the board never did.

The whole idea of the council is perhaps viewed wrongly, consider it instead as the Community Focus Group. It is made up from the people who put a lot of work into making a difference in AO. The reason these people are selected is due to the hard work they put. This shows me that they are willing to work just as hard in the focus group as they do currently.

One example is a quiet chap (well ish) he works in the MIRC tech support for the players, hes not FC or gets any money but still hes there a lot to help the people out with his techincal knowledge. He knows as much about the problems with AO then the tech support chaps do.

There are lots of others doing such work as well. The focus group is about bring these people together for the good of the game. On our own we can do only so much as a group we can do much more.

Make no mistake this focus group is not about having elitle chats with FC or trying to take communication away from people. Its about understanding the major issues the game has. Its like a think tank trying to come up with solutions to these problems as well. We dont expect everyone to agree to the ideas, people dont agree to the changes FC makes either.

But we play the game, we experince the world we have a good understand first hand of the problems. Also we can talk to the players, its much easier for a team of 12 to collect information from 30,000 people than it is just 3 or 5.

The Focus group will listen collect the ideas, suggest solutions, create a report on the findings and submit that to FC. In just the same way any player would. But also the focus group can do more by them trying to solve the problems for the players.

Before I get flamed for this these people already do, the guy in tech support is doing a job FC would do, people writing the history in AO again the same and so on. As a group we can perhaps arrange put on better events, work together as a team.

The focus group is not all about represeting the players taking power away hopefully a lot of the time we will be doing things for the game.

I guess you could just say join the ARK's and you make a good point and I have thought about a lot. But see to me I am just a player becoming an ark is stepping over that line. I am worried I enter a world in which no longer enables me to see things just from a players point of view and thats very important to me.

Also the group is not restricted just to 12 people thats a start if we get more than that it becomes hard to arrnage, but this does not stop people being a part of it.

For example we could create a tech support database to help with the MIRC group, but this might include many different people in tech support chan to help as well.

The point of asking FC for the meetings was to draw attention to the issues in game, more importantly the communication factor.

The events had being going downhill from decemeber, the main characters disappeared, the dust briagde story stopped, we where left on the the brink of war for 4 months. But worst was the lack of communication nothing to keep the heart of the game ticking over.

I was hearing a lot of people saying they where bored, Groups like TBA and SA, Div 9 and many others tried to ****e things up but the world never changed. Fc never reacted to these events the world thought virtually was no longer believeable. The hard work put into COT and Omni-Tek was dieing because the message from they never got through.

I posted about the story on the boards, I dont thing I would have got a reply if captfallout had not placed a person attack on an FC member. But I hoped that this would change things sadly it did not the story was still dead 20 days after 117 posts to improve the story line.

I felt like screaming, and I talked to the community on IRC they felt the same hopeless to change any thing. The Omni leaders spent 6 hours talking about it as well and come close to submitting a document that unless FC got the story going they would quit.

My idea was this focus group aimed at bring a communication from FC it may not be the best idea or to some peoples liking but not one person has come up with a better idea than for FC to become better, which is not happing and why the group was born.

This group so far has given a lot of people some hope, and I know FC having been talking about the idea. This alone is great not just for the group heck they might reject the idea. But it will focus there minds on improving the problems.

I did not set out to create myself a power, if I wanted to do that their are much easyier ways ( attacking your own sides seems to work j/k)

I set out to make the game better, if you cant see that then your blind. I did not put on events, nor do I run my news site to gain power its becuse for the people that read my site, those that went to the parties it made a difference.

I hope the focus group will to.


I hope this has explained my ideas, my motives etc. You can chosse to believe them or not, you can rage against me or come help me. But I am tired of talk, and of fighting people all the time, it gets no where its time for action to do things.

Which is if you dont like it do something about it, create your own focus group, you come and help the people in tech support, you build tools or help guides for AO. You come and create reports to FC, I am not stopping you and blaming me or the focus group is a cop out.

Kirrana

[_______________Snowy]

*sigh* I thought I was done here but I can't help myself. First off, Intra, that was a very well thought out and written post.

Originally posted by Kirrana
Great Intra,

If FC where doing the things you suggest my idea of the council would not be required. Sadly its not happing and you putting it on the board does not seem to help.

Oh my god. Kirrana, do you realize how quickly you bash these ideas? Do you realize that he offered you constructive criticism in a very polite manner? And by saying, "you putting it on the board does not seem to help" really goes to show one thing. You are obviously not capable of reading the comments and opinions on these boards in an unbiased manner. He suggests a few minor changes to the current system and you lay the smack down on him for it. Really constructive.

The whole idea of the council is perhaps viewed wrongly, consider it instead as the Community Focus Group. It is made up from the people who put a lot of work into making a difference in AO. The reason these people are selected is due to the hard work they put. This shows me that they are willing to work just as hard in the focus group as they do currently.

I just want to point out here that the people in this group already do quite a bit. I just do not understand based on past experience in other games how burnout will be avoided and how they feel they'd even have the time to do this. I'm not volunteering just making a realistic observation as I said based on past experience.

its much easier for a team of 12 to collect information from 30,000 people than it is just 3 or 5.

Right. In their spare time they will be able to do that much more? You continue in your post to talk about how much these people chosen already do. I just can't fathom how they even stand a chance here.

I guess you could just say join the ARK's and you make a good point and I have thought about a lot. But see to me I am just a player becoming an ark is stepping over that line. I am worried I enter a world in which no longer enables me to see things just from a players point of view and thats very important to me.

Mmmm so... sounds to me like you place much less faith in Cosmik and CZ than previously stated. I mean, they've already corssed that line and all.

For example we could create a tech support database to help with the MIRC group, but this might include many different people in tech support chan to help as well.

I'm kinda confused now because I thought the basis of this group was supposed to be primarily if not specifically regarding storyline and roleplay issues? Do you even know the focus of the group now?

My idea was this focus group aimed at bring a communication from FC it may not be the best idea or to some peoples liking but not one person has come up with a better idea than for FC to become better, which is not happing and why the group was born.

I think journalism 101 might be required here. Because many people in this thread alone have offered minor suggestions, but suggestions nonetheless. You might want to take the chip off your shoulder and reread the entire thread.

I set out to make the game better, if you cant see that then your blind.

Again you need to reread. Since this post was specifically directed at Intra I think you owe him a big old appology...

Initially posted by Intra
I do appreciate the effort that the players are putting in.
I do dissagree with the concept of a player run council though for many of the reasons stated.

He said right here that he DOES appreciate the effort. And yet you call him blind. Is he blind because he doesn't think your idea can work? Is it so wrong to have a different opinion? You are biased and that right there is one big reason that I will continue to be a voice against this specific group as currently planned.

I can do something about things if it gets to the point I can't handle it anymore. It's called the cancel button. I don't need to create any kind of group myself. I'm against the idea in the first place so I certainly don't need my own. I'm generally having a good time in game and attending many of the player run events. I understand the frustration many people feel but I personally think that this is the wrong way to go about it. I feel that this group can not possibly have everyone's interests in mind and judging by the way you can't even deal with people having different opinions than yourself I again state that if this group does become active that you had better not claim to be the voice of the people, because you are certainly not that.

[_______________Intra]

a question...

do you have anyone from RK2 on your focus group? or are the better events that you hope to bring about only going to occur on one dimension?

I mainly dont like the idea of taking out of game politics (ie the concept of funcom and players) in game.
the issue of funcom not talking to players or creating events for players is not an in character issue. Intra, the character, has no concept of funcom or that he is being controlled by someone sitting at a keyboard

but anyway...

if it does go ahead I hope it works out for your, I do appreciate the effort that you are putting in on behalf of the players. But I can see that many of the players do not want to be represented by a group that they had no part in electing.

there will be uproar if this focus group gets preferential treatment from funcom. I can see it already.

I hope it does enhance your gaming experience, but, to the casual observer it will appear to be an exclusive club chosen by you and it will always encounter resistence.
If people see it working then they will want to be a part of it, if they are not allowed to be a part of it they will think.. ok, I will do the same.
another group will pop up with the same agenda and if they do not get treated equally then again there will be hell on because they are all paying the same money.

it happens all the time, people have a concept of fairness and want an equal opportunity.
unless they feel they are being given that same opportunity they will cry out.

it doesnt matter how much you tell them it is fair, it doesnt matter how much you tell them they have the same opportunity and nothing is being taken away from them.. it only matters if you can deliver that fairness and show them they have an equal voice, they have to feel it is fair.


damn.. I get carried away... I will put my soap box down.
reminds myself that this is a gaming forum

anyway....
thank you for your efforts, I hope funcom brings this board back to life soon and communicates with us here

[_____________Kasimir]

Kirrana, I just want you to stop and consider this. You claim that FC isn't listening. I won't argue, sometimes they aren't. What makes you think they'll be more willing to listen to your "community focus" group then they are to us? Also, I believe you when you say yoou have no elitist aspirations. When YOU say it..I don't know these other people, and therefore I don't believe that some of them may not at some point in the future pull something like that.


I don't believe, Kirrana, that the problem in our communication with FC is any lack of community from our end, or lack of cohesion. It's their ability and/or willingness to listen and respond in what we the players consider a timley and apporpriate fashion. The fault lies not in us dear Kirrana, but in Funcom. (to paraphrase Shakespeare)

[_____________Kirrana]

This could go on for ever me explaining the issues you giving counter points. I do accpet your ponits and I have taken them on board this does not mean it will change my mind.

I believe this focus group is a good idea its at least worth giving a go and I believe I risk causing no harm by trying it. Pehaps more importantly I have not had any better suggestions or ideas.

Maybe it will not make a difference personally I believe it has already disagree if you want your free to do so. But so I am free to create this group, the group is also free to make its points heard and your free to create your own group if you wish.

I cant hope to change the way some people feel about this nor did I ever expect to have the players fully behind me. But I will listen to your points still but I will refrain from carrying on this attack and counter attack I believe it will never end. Lets just agree to disagree on some points.

[___________Chagidiel]

Since some of the resistence to this idea has made a good job of arguing about anything but the main point, Id like to come back to it.


There have been 7-8 months desperat trys to talk to FC about the story, or lack there of. So far theres not been any results, and whats worse, not a singel respons.

Hence, one has to come to the conclusion that FC does not listen to individuals, nor to subscription cancellation.
(about the analouge to when the game was broken, well, trust me, FC did not fix bugs due to subscription cancelation, but rather to have a game at all)

The point is NOT to make events, but to show FC the problems with the game, problems a vast majority of the players think is wrong.


The main point is really: We have tried to get through to FC as individuals, by posting, chatting, and cancelling. Nothing has changed. What should we do now?


ERURUS: Your (among many others ) techniqui of discussion is poor. Me and Kirr. knowing each other from before has nothing to do with anything. Me and Kirr, has not been in agreement of very much about any matters, fact is, we have been on opposite ends of almost every discussion we ever had.
The reson for me suporting this idea, is that its the only thing left to try, to get any respons of FC. So, please stay on topic, instead of making petty comments about my personality, which, you know nothing about. And let me assure you, finally, that i will never have anything to do with the ones in control of this group. As I said, I have lost faith in that there will be any improvment, Im only supporting this idea, since it is the last thing untried.


And from all against this idea, there are not a singel constructive idea suggested, apart from Cruel, that suggest the same thing as Kirr., only with the exeption that FC is responsible, which unfortually wont work, since FC has shown, they are not intrested in such a thing. Hence, we have to force them to become intrested, which, presumebly, can be done by gathering in large enough groups. (and, honstly, Im not even sure this will work, though I think its worth a shoot.)

[_______________Snowy]

Well, since so many people seem to think that there haven't been any other ideas mentioned at all I will present the, "Apparantly overlooked constructive ideas:"

"An in game poll is possible for organizations, why not for the player base as a whole. "

Yes, this one would put the ball in Funcom's court but perhaps maybe something like this could be suggested to them?

"I am all for a group of people putting out documents or petitions about certain issues. I might even sign some of them."

Yet another idea.

"My suggestion? Present your council idea to the community leaders employed by Funcom and have them choose those that will represent their chosen areas well. If they don't do a good job, ultimately the players will "moan" enough so that they will have to remove this person or again, the game will be in trouble."

A solution that would make many people unhappy with this council idea happier and off the bat would tell you if Funcom might even be willing to try this out.

- Put the accountability on Funcom. Have Cz, Cosmik or whomever they choose be responsible for this SIG. Therefore answering the accountability.

- Decide upon each general area that should be covered. (Roleplaying, Guilds, Events, every class).

- Suggest Team Leaders for each of these areas from people you think would be beneficial to the community. With ultimately the say going to Funcom. (They may have other data showing others whom you dont' know that could be helpful. Especially in the class situations).

- Each of these team leaders could then gather together a team of people to help them figure out what is the most pressing issues within each area.

- Have Funcom give them a special sig that simply sets them apart as people who have information but are not developers.

Cruel's ideas on Funcom being responsible for the focus group/council. These are great ideas.

About real game mechanics issues or changes you wish to see. Get people together and write an e-mail petition on an issue (not use the /petition command) with as many player voices as you can. Then send FC that petition

Another petition type idea from yet another person.

Also threads here are great for feeling out issues. If you think it's an issue start a thread and see if the people agree. Don't think that FC doesn't read these threads, they do.


Why not just a mass vote on a website?

Great idea. Why not dedicate a new website or a part of a website to issues specifically. Get people to that site. Get people to sign petitions. Get EVERYONE involved.

You want events? Make your own..little player-created and guild-created events show up all the time, and now the new Events calendar will facilitate those tremendously!

Very true. With the new calendar I wonder if that will be a form of communication to make sure Funcom knows what's going on and when. It's fairly new but give it time.

When there was an earlier roleplaying meeting, a number of arks and GMs turned up to listen to what was being said.

Hmm... take this and put it together with the calendar. Maybe you could get Funcom to attend a meeting where we all sit down and talk about issues? Instead of spoon feeding them stuff they should be reading themselves from the message boards why NOT specifically invite them to attend? If they aren't willing to attend that should say something right there.

For instance, go back to the weekly reports that used to be posted. Every week we could get a summary from the devs on where they are on certain issues and where they are looking for in the future.

Perhaps this is something that needs to be pushed for specifically then?

================

Also, I'm curious about this:

FC has all along said that players will not effect their overall storyline.

Is is this true? Has this actually been said?

[Red Falcon]

Originally posted by Kirrana
This could go on for ever me explaining the issues you giving counter points. I do accpet your ponits and I have taken them on board this does not mean it will change my mind.

Above might be restated as:

'Puhleese this is getting so tired, me listening to your ideas.. like I didn't already think that! I mean, I am doing all the thinking for a playerbase of thousands. Ok you made your points, I'm disregarding them, so shut up.'

Classic arrogance, with lack of grammatical skill to boot. Color me faithful in this idea. Really.

In saying you are 'stating the issues' you confirm that you already have your mind set on what the real issues are, and people are just blowing smoke at you with counterpoints that don't matter.

I believe this focus group is a good idea its at least worth giving a go and I believe I risk causing no harm by trying it. Pehaps more importantly I have not had any better suggestions or ideas.

The harm risked here is making Funcom lose even more focus. Already they have pretty much set the storyline aside to patch the game and/or update classes, release Special editions and Expansion packs.. now they need to content with an extortion racket amongst their players to rally political gusto to pressure them into doing more. What is going to suffer? Are we going to get less patches? Will fixer or adventurer patches get pushed back?

Maybe it will not make a difference personally I believe it has already disagree if you want your free to do so. But so I am free to create this group, the group is also free to make its points heard and your free to create your own group if you wish.

You're right. You are free to create a group for your purposes to represent your views to the Funcom team. I think you'd be better off gathering statistics via a web page or something so you can say 'X people voted on this matter' rather than saying you represent the entire playerbase, something you can never accurately do, and is so insultingly impudent for you to claim to do it has pissed off almost everyone who has replied to your thread.

Say you represent X and Y guilds. Put a roster online. But don't say you represent everyone about everything like some omnipotent entity. That's bad PR. Especially when you're on the same side as the people you're representing (rather than a company/customer relationship.)

I cant hope to change the way some people feel about this nor did I ever expect to have the players fully behind me. But I will listen to your points still but I will refrain from carrying on this attack and counter attack I believe it will never end. Lets just agree to disagree on some points.

Right again. You can't change the way people think, and you won't ever have the players fully behind you. So don't claim that you represent the wishes of the players.

I have faith in the small team Funcom has doing things for us. A lot of class and item changes have come into play around the time the 'storyline' stopped having major occurrences. They have limited resources and they're doing what they can.

And maybe if you don't want to 'cross that line' and join ARK, you should just sit down. Run your own events, in-character, on-world, with what's available to you as a player. Have your friends help you with the setup. Write a small backstory. Spread rumors. People are doing it. It's been rewarding. The energy you're spending on organizing this farce could be better spent ingame, doing what you're talking about organizing a rally to beg for more of.



P.S. On a side note, I am very frightened to see that all the proponents of this 'plan' have the utter inability to create readable dialogue.

[_______________Snowy]

/applaud Red Falcon

[_____________Kasimir]

Agreed...plus to be honest..my concern is over the need for improvements in the mechanics first. I'm a Fixer. Go on the Fixer boards. Some of you already are. You see the problems we have..I cannot play my character to the extent in which he can fully participate in many GM events. That being the case, I'd rather wait until Kasimir works the way he's supposed to before I worry about saving the world.

[_____________Kirrana]

Thanks for your views red falcon

[Nylan]

Okay here are my views, I have watched the thread mostly because I wanted to get a feel for everybody's opinions. Now I'm ready to present mine.

1) The council: Yes I think that naming it a focus group is better than a council, because a council normally has some type of legal power.

2) Gathering info on the game and presenting it directly to FC: Um, in how in anyway is this different from the ARK program? I have a basic idea of how the ARK's are set up, and they have a PR department, and an events department. If you really want to get FC's involvement with the events, why don't you Join ARK and join the section that is devoted to that area?

3) Storyline: Yes we all know that the storyline has been very absent for a few months. But that has been because A) they overestimated the manpower that would be needed, which is hopefully not the case now that the ARK program seems to be in shaping up. B) When there was a lot of player interaction with events, invariably it was ruined by some loser that came along, saw a green name, and decided to take the ARK/GM out.

Those pretty much my views, so anyone that disagree's with me. Flame on!

[_______________Snowy]

Hmm...

So one of the problems has been people assuming that the best thing to do is kill off green name characters before they even have a chance to do their thing?

This is really too bad and something that I saw a heck of a lot of in Everquest. Eventually it got to the point that anyone who tried such a thing just to spite the situation was removed from the scene literally being transported to somewhere very far away.

If it has been a serious situation maybe they're working on it?