Omni or Clans The Great Debate

[____________Sokeljun]

I was born to loving Opifex parents in West Athens, and neither they nor I signed any agreement with Omni-Tek, and so help me, neither will any of my children. All Nanomages do not belong to Omni, unlike the Omni engineered Atrox slave race, because they are able to reproduce, creating new individuals with no ties to the Omni-tek corporation.

[Aazamon]

Originally posted by DushbagJones
i think you might want to read this http://anarchy-online.com/content/ga...past/timeline/ , it's the entier timeline of Rubi-Ka. The nanomage, opifex, and atrox are all genetic variations on the dominate Homo Solotis. And even if you didn't come to this planet via transport, the Clans lack the techonolgy to create the Nanomage species. The Opifex and Atrox are the 2 more versatile species created. The Opifex and Atorx do no have to be created on Rubi-Ka like the nanomage. Thus to be a Nanomage is to be created by the Omni-Tek corporation, meaning you have signed a contract with them as to enhance your genetic structure (cloning is impossible because there can only be one soul at a time on any given place). and your putting words in my mouth, i said to come to Rubi-Ka which can ber interperated into creation as well, you must sign a contract with Omni-Tek. and how is claiming that you never talked to Clan and neut reps and saying you were transported to Rubi-Ka controdictary?

So I signed this contract when I was a foetus? I was created in an Omni-Tek lab, other mages are born naturally but I a was not, I never was given a choice on the matter. Omni-Tek grew me in a test tube from genetic material and notum augmentations. I was brought up in a dormatory at the Biomare Facillity, trained to be an Omni-Tek Lab technician. As soon as I was able I fled because I know I am a sentiant being with rights and self dignity. I won't be owned by a corperation, nor will I sign a contract with one that requires me to give up my rights.

The Omni-Tek contracts themselves arn't legal as they contradict basic human rights. Omni-Tek governance isn't legal because they contradict the basic right to self determination. ICC can no longer claim ownership of a planet over the rights of the people who have been living here for hundreds of years. That is the root of the conflict, it is not about some actions 200 years old, it is about today. It is about the dignity of MANKIND!

[________DushbagJones]

i did overlook the fact of people being born, but in the way i was speaking was of colonist being transported and created. i am ready to start a more poloticalk debate now cause i'm tired of defending the facts. i would like to ask why people fight for what side they fight for?

[________________Zhik]

Alrighty then, since you ask:

I'm an immigrant to Rubi-Ka, but I didn't sign on with OT. My sister lives on Rubi-Ka and she sent me the money for a ticket here. (Yes, I travelled on an OT transport, and no, I didn't sign a contract with OT. They were pleased to sell me a ticket) I haven't been onplanet long, but it's a wonderful place. I'm very impressed with both its beauty and its potential.

The reason that I side with the Clans rather than OT is simple: I like working for myself. If I joined Omni-Tek I would have been putting all my efforts into making the corporation rich. Personally, I'd rather set up my own company and live on my own merits. Why should others profit from my labour and give me only a tiny salary in return?

I like the freedom I've found in the Clans. I can run my affairs as I see fit, take advantage of opportunities as they arise, and in general live my own life my way.

The "war" isn't something that I involve myself with very much. I'm not a killer, I'm a businessman. I don't support terrorism (from either side) and I don't particularly care for killing people just because they happen to live on the other side of an imaginary line from me.

[________DushbagJones]

zhik, you don't want to work for others, but would you welcome other to work for you? Omni-Tek is a corporation, everyone must be involved if for the group as a whole to succede. If Omni-Tek isn't getting rich neithger are you, and if Omni gets rich, then you do as well. while i respect your idea to be a business man, i wish you to see the Clans have become no different then Omni-Tek, except the Clans have no central control so they will be unable to govern the planet.

[________________Zhik]

Originally posted by DushbagJones
zhik, you don't want to work for others, but would you welcome other to work for you? Omni-Tek is a corporation, everyone must be involved if for the group as a whole to succede. If Omni-Tek isn't getting rich neithger are you, and if Omni gets rich, then you do as well.

That's a nice idea in principal, Dush, but I'm sure you're aware that the vast majority of people who work for OT will never get rich, no matter how much profit the corporation generates. A corporation exists to give profit to its shareholders, not to its employees.

So long as people are exporting notum off of Rubi-Ka it's very possible for me to get rich. I just need to find a service that people need and then apply myself. Because my organization is very small, it's also very fast. I can react to an opportunity much more quickly then the mega-behemoth which is OT. Besides, I would rather stand or fall on my own merits.

Originally posted by DushbagJones
while i respect your idea to be a business man, i wish you to see the Clans have become no different then Omni-Tek, except the Clans have no central control so they will be unable to govern the planet.

Time will tell in that regard. I have some hope that the new Council of Truth will allow the clans to present a more united position. If they don't, however, I don't see that as a huge problem.

I, for one, don't believe that the Clans should rule the entire planet. As much as the Clans deserve to hold part of the planet, there can be no question that OT has invested an incredible amount of time and money in terraforming and working this world. They deserve a fair return on their investment.

There's an old saying on my home planet, "there's more than one way to plow a field." (Yes, Ceti Alpha VI is a farm world). OT is one way to generate profit, but smaller organizations can be just as effective. Similarly, the entire world doesn't need to be united under one government for people to be happy or for there to be peace.

[Eeky]

Originally posted by DushbagJones
i did overlook the fact of people being born, but in the way i was speaking was of colonist being transported and created. i am ready to start a more poloticalk debate now cause i'm tired of defending the facts. i would like to ask why people fight for what side they fight for?

No, you mean you're tired of being proven wrong. You never addressed any of my points before going back to your disinformation. But I digress.

My reasons for joining Clan are very personal, only to be shared amongst those who are my close friends. Not for a public forum and definitely not for you.

However, there is probably one shining reason why people _stay_ with their current faction -- their family and friends. Whether Omni, Neutral or Clan.

This is not to say people don't have friends of opposing factions. They just tend to make many more friends amongst those of their faction. I suspect when the case is not true, that is when people switch sides in the conflict.

I personally don't hate Omni citizens. I am however, against the Omni cause. This sometimes leads me into conflict with people during skirmishes.

[Xhairs]

And what, pray tell, is the Omni cause?

[Eeky]

Originally posted by Xhairs
And what, pray tell, is the Omni cause?

Are you asking because you object to the term "cause"? I could coddle you with things like "Corporate Vision", but as far as I'm concerned, they're the same animal.

I'll assume you aren't asking me for my opinion, especially since I already voiced that I won't give out my own personal reasons to joining the clans (some are related to Omni "Corporate Vision"), in an attempt to either attack my beliefs or proselytize me.

[________DushbagJones]

accually ekey i've adressed your misinformation several times, you have as of late been unable to provide any relevant information to further the discussion. and Zhik in a corporation everyone is suppose to have some shares that works for the corporation. a corporation that doesn't amke money isn't going to be able to pay their employes. while i don't think a janitor should get rich cleaning the floors while a trader is making big investment transactions, but in the capatilist soceity is to have an invisibal hand to move people along. if opturnity is seen someone will jump on it, so if the janitor can get the eduication and motivation he will be able to move his way up through the coporate ranks and thus gain more porfit.
i would like to see a new CoT come into the picture if it can accually exercise control over the Clan territories. If the Clans can stop being so loose knit and gain some centeralized contorl, like the United States of America use to be, or Greece even. Then they could accually be a governmental body, something i can respect more then a bunch of radical groups.

the omni cause as it's know to the Omni citizens is to exercise control over Rubi-Ka. i am guessing to the Clan citizen the cause is to opress everyone into thinking what they believe. to the neutrals it's just a coporation trying to exercise control over it's region. those would probably be anwsers you would get from average citizens, to me the Omni cause is to unite exercise control and create order. while the Clans might argue that this order restricts freedom, i would say to have to give freedom to get freedom. i fight for my side because i believe it to be the most stable governmental structure on Rubi-Ka.

[Eeky]

Originally posted by DushbagJones
accually ekey i've adressed your misinformation several times, you have as of late been unable to provide any relevant information to further the discussion.

Actually you've done nothing of the sort. You've done nothing but avoid my topics. You were totally disproven several times over thinking all clanners were "contract violators." You even thought everyone was shipped to Rubi-Ka!

This aside from the fact that you, well, you know, can't even spell my FOUR LETTER NAME. Despite the fact I've provided the time and courtesy of spelling yours correctly.

Even when I gave my input as to your "political debate," I see several key points:

- This is not a gridfeed thread for you to debate or learn. This is a thinly veiled topic to attack or proselytize Clan and Neutrals.

- You know very little about Clan, yet you are chock full of false information on what we "think". We're not told what to think, nor are we oppressed into feeling a certain way. Maybe if you spent time in Reet's, calmly talking to clanners and finding out how they feel, as opposed to spouting propaganda from streetcorners in Old Athens?

- You seem to think a corporation should run people's lives. I personally feel that a democratic government should be put in place. Not some sort of pseudo-dictatorship with the primary goal of profit.

- You seem to think that the clans run amok. Why do you think we are scattered and disorganized? I certainly hope you don't associate a vile group called the Dust Brigade with Clans. They attacks Clans and Neutrals just as often as they attack Omni.

((OOC: Edited something I didn't clean up, should be a little clearer now. Hard to squeeze these in at work! ))

[________DushbagJones]

hah your funny, just like your avoided the timeline which proved the shooting of Clans on sight, which was instigated by the Sentenial Clan which killed ICC peace keepers and Omni citizens for no reason, and yes they are a Clan. i even provided a timeline which i doubt you read. i did admit i was wrong in the shipping, by the default of being born, but i stated what i ment in the post. what you fail to see about the Clans is that you can't have a republic with a scattered group of people. you must have some central backbone which the CoT could provide, yet they are unable to keep some of the Clans in line. Omni-Tek provides a central backbone which is sufficient enough to accually run a planet. you can't have complete freedom, you are always restricted. You stated that you don't agree witht he Omni cause but when someone asked you what the cause was, you just coped out and AVOIDED the question.

[Eeky]

Originally posted by DushbagJones
hah your funny, just like your avoided the timeline which proved the shooting of Clans on sight, which was instigated by the Sentenial Clan which killed ICC peace keepers and Omni citizens for no reason, and yes they are a Clan.

No, that is not what you said at all. This is EXACTLY what you said:

Originally posted by DushbagJones
it is better to gather your facts before you say something is wrong, or someone is not admiting all the truth. and you should read up on your history, the ICC polocies on the Clans are to shoot on sight

You said, and I quote again to help it sink in, "The ICC polocies on the Clans are to shoot on sight". This is where I laughed at you, and suspected you of using expired stims. The ICC does NOT shoot Clans on sight. If you don't believe me, I will even go the extra mile, and MEET you in ICC. I will stand in front of the guards, wave at them... perhaps we can have a big dance in front of them? They will NOT shoot me.

Your fatal error in judgement, is that you are associating the Newland Thugs with the ICC. Hired mercenaries are not the ICC!

Originally posted by DushbagJones
what you fail to see about the Clans is that you can't have a republic with a scattered group of people. you must have some central backbone which the CoT could provide, yet they are unable to keep some of the Clans in line.

First of all, I said I believe a democratic solution would be best. A rule by the people. Where leaders are fairly elected by all people of Rubi-Ka. Where its best interests are the people of Rubi-Ka. Not a corporation which maintains a dictatorship, where leaders are selected by a board of directors, where its best interests are in profits, not people.

Secondly, there are clans which have conflicting interests. Just as there are Omni-tek organizations which disagree. Some are friendly enough to Clanners. Others are quite militant.

Third, regardless of whether you believe in a dictatorship or democracy, Omni-Tek would still be a bad for government. Why? You talk much of control, but Omni-Tek does not own Rubi-Ka, they lease it. Before that lease even expires, SOL Banking will be able to buy limited interests on Rubi-Ka. After that, TruSpace Networks and many other hyper corporations will be allowed to buy full interests in Rubi-Ka. Thus, Omni-Tek will not have "full" control -- in fact the planet will be even more fragmented.

And what will you do when those days come? My suggestion is for you to put away your militant ways now and make peace with the Clans. When the other hyper corporations come to Rubi-Ka, we'd be the best allies you'd ever have.

Originally posted by DushbagJones
you can't have complete freedom, you are always restricted.

I'm not willing to completely give my freedom over to a corporation either. There's an old Earth saying, "Your right to swing your fist stops at my nose." That is *MY* idea of allowable freedoms.

Originally posted by DushbagJones
You stated that you don't agree witht he Omni cause but when someone asked you what the cause was, you just coped out and AVOIDED the question.

Actually, I didn't. I just gave my reasons for not answering. Its not as if I made it up -- I stated that my personal reasons were not on display for you or anyone else. I stated that fact in a previous message, before I was even asked.

[Xhairs]

Originally posted by Eeky


Are you asking because you object to the term "cause"? I could coddle you with things like "Corporate Vision", but as far as I'm concerned, they're the same animal.

I'll assume you aren't asking me for my opinion, especially since I already voiced that I won't give out my own personal reasons to joining the clans (some are related to Omni "Corporate Vision"), in an attempt to either attack my beliefs or proselytize me.

I am asking you what you think the Omni cause is. And yes, cause or corporate vision is just the same thing i can agree to that.

No, i´m not asking you why you joined the Clans, i´m asking you what OT cause, vision, policy or what ever you care to call it, is.

The reason i ask is because i get 500 different reactions from Clanners i talk to. Everything from "Omni-Tek is the devil!" to "Omni-Tek is a dictatorship!" to "Omni-Tek is greed!" to "OT suxxor Calns r00lz!". (spirits i despise that way of talking.)

So what is your reaction? What does Omni-Tek want on Rubi-Ka? What is our cause?

[________DushbagJones]

i seemed to have read the thing wrong, but you still seem to not understand how government works. a direct democrracy on a planet can not work, the amount of people is too big, it would also require every single person to vote. without any senteralizedc government it will be nothing but the Articles of Conederation all over again. there has to be a central backing of some kind. and you need to review the lease given to OMni-Tek byt he ICC, it expresses that Omni-Tek has sole governing abality on Rubi-Ka, so in default they own or control the planet. and yes you avoided the question, it wasn't why did you join the Clans it was what is the Omni cause. when the other corporations come into the picture, alligence with the Clans is an impratictal option. being as fragmented as they are and without a central backing they will be punished for what the few do. if Omni-Tek was smart alligence with other hyper corps to eradicate the Clan threat is the most logical solution, considering that Omni-Tek doesn't need to rely on the Clans as much as the Clans would need to rely on Omni-Tek. while the Clans might have a large army, they don't span hundreds of world giving them a major disadvantige. and the Clans are only fighting a small Omni force, seeing as Omni-Prime deemed it unecessary to send reinforcements to Rubi-Ka.
while you might think it is wrong for a corporation to exercise control over people, you must also review the prosperity or lack there of the clans have had under their government, if it can even be called that. a corporation is the most efficient form of government created, it allows to a high specilization of labor and income to prosper. which is probably why corporations outlasted nation-states, and thus why slowly the Clan cause is doomed to fail.

[_______________Xylyx]

OOC: Nice thread! Fun little debate and it good to hear why people chose the side they did.

Ordrek- He was born in an OT lab (nanomage) and trained as an operative. In his time in the intelligence field hes seen alot from both sides of the conflict. He agrees with the Clans cause but believes they are ultimately doomed by their infighting and the sheer power of OT. Because hes a pragmatic individual he sides with OT.

Ordrek is not interested in OT propaganda but loves his work and OT loves how he does it for them so its a good relationship. He has seen first hand some of the horrors incflicted by Clan radicals and takes pleasure in eradicating them. He understands not all Clan are this way however and tries to give the rest the benefit of the doubt. He know OT is far from perfect, but its the perfect solution for this imperfect world.

[Eeky]

(( OOC: I personally have been having a blast with this thread. Unfortunately I've been tied up the last couple of days and haven't been able to respond. I hope to get some more responses in tomorrow.

Its my first foray into an RP forum and I have to say, its been great so far. ))

[Xhairs]

(OOC: Yeah. It´s great fun. : ))

[________________Zhik]

Originally posted by DushbagJones
...and Zhik in a corporation everyone is suppose to have some shares that works for the corporation. a corporation that doesn't amke money isn't going to be able to pay their employes. while i don't think a janitor should get rich cleaning the floors while a trader is making big investment transactions, but in the capatilist soceity is to have an invisibal hand to move people along. if opturnity is seen someone will jump on it, so if the janitor can get the eduication and motivation he will be able to move his way up through the coporate ranks and thus gain more porfit...

Are you telling me that every employee of Omni-Tek holds OT shares? You'll forgive me if I find this hard to believe. If that is the case, however, then I am quite impressed.

Whether or not I get to be a shareholder isn't really the important part of what I was saying, however. Even if I became a senior manager with OT, I'm sure that I wouldn't hold enough shares to truly change the course of such a corporate behemoth. I want the freedom to choose my destiny, to stand or fall based on my own decisions. I also want to be able to choose my own tasks, rather than being forced by a higher level executive to work at whatever they think I am best suited for. Simply put, I don't want to give up my independance.

I'd also like to add, on a personal note, that some of the research which OT conducts I find to be personally abhorrent. My sister recently conducted an exploration mission into an Omni Mine at the end of The Longest Road, where she discovered that OT is conducting research on human beings that includes both forced mutation and vivisection. Even if the beings experimented on are clones (which I pray they are, rather than "volunteers), I find this sort of thing to be extremely disturbing, and I wouldn't want my name associated with it.

Originally posted by DushbagJones
......i fight for my side because i believe it to be the most stable governmental structure on Rubi-Ka.

Great. I agree. OT's government is the most stable on Rubi-Ka. How does that give you the right to wage war on the Clans, or the Neutrals for that matter? Why do you have to destabilize our governments as they struggle to find a new balance?

And before you answer, please don't respond with the tired rhetoric of "All Clanners are terrorists and we are simply defending ourselves." You know as well as I do that there are very few rabidly aggressive Clans. The majority of Clans simply want to be left alone. And the actions of Midia and her false Dust Brigade are not sanctioned by any Clan. We are as much at war with her as OT is.

[________DushbagJones]

Omni-Tek has only attacked once unprovoked by the Clans. while a minority do use militant forces, i have yet to say i am completly against the Clans existing. If the CoT can create some stable body for the Clans which it didn't do at first, then they could accually be a respectable government. Omni-Tek has not entrenched it self into Clan life as much as the Clans have intrenched themselves in Omni life.there is almost a duality, Omni can exist without the Clans, but i really doubt the Clans can exist without Omni-Tek.