Omni or Clans The Great Debate

[Eeky]

Originally posted by Trance7
Without rules/laws there is chaos. Chaos = Without Peace.

Clan have chosen the path of Chaos which leads to nothing but destruction. If you go to OA you see nothing but trash and graffitti.

If we are to judge by a shining example, what of those you side with, the Unredeemed?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

[______________Fairyn]

Originally posted by Soyuz
This is just one reason why I remain neutral. Quite apart from the philosohical and moral problems I have with both sides' standard dogma, all too many members of both factions seem... rootless. They don't know who they are or why they're fighting, yet they continue to fight.

Is it possible that they fight out of a sense for duty ? When our sons and daughters pick up arms, they do so because the cause is just. It's their heart that drives their honorable actions. The strive for freedom is not something that needs to be taught, it is in our very nature. Evidenced by our desire to leave the confines of our very own backyard from the moment we enter existence.

While I don't agree with Omni, I can't deny them their beliefs. That is freedom.

Do we hate one another, Omni and Clan ? Quite possibly. But I prefer that over indifference. Belief in ANYTHING is better than the belief in nothing.

Make no mistake. I forgive Omni for nothing. By their very nature seeking favor with the unredeemed (adj: in danger of the eternal punishment of hell; "poor damned souls").

[Dabblez]

Originally posted by Eeky


If we are to judge by a shining example, what of those you side with, the Unredeemed?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

And what is your problem with the Unredeemed?

Are they evil becasue they are ugly? That is so shallow.

Are they evil because they advocate making full use of notum resources? So what exactly are the clans doing with all those mines?

Is it because one or two Unredeemed you met were less than wholesome? Would you judging a whole race one that? Shame on you!

Savoy

[________________Zhik]

Originally posted by Savoy


And what is your problem with the Unredeemed?

Are they evil because they are ugly? That is so shallow.

Are they evil because they advocate making full use of notum resources? So what exactly are the clans doing with all those mines?

Is it because one or two Unredeemed you met were less than wholesome? Would you judging a whole race one that? Shame on you!

Savoy

Good point Savoy. I've got to admit, that's one of the reasons I don't want to spend much time in the Shadowlands. It seems that to progress there, I am forced to choose a side and then try my best to commit genocide.

I want to make a profit, sure, and I don't mind destroying mindless Hecklers who only exist to eat whatever is in front of them, but I'm not looking to get rich at the expense of entire races who've never done me any harm.

I think I'll just set up my shop somewhere on Rubi-Ka, mine my share of notum, and sell it to the highest bidder.

[Eeky]

Originally posted by Savoy
And what is your problem with the Unredeemed?

Are they evil becasue they are ugly? That is so shallow.

About as shallow as saying that the Clans are a form of Chaos and Destruction due to some litter and graffiti in one city? Maybe a little, oh, I don't know, exaggerated?

What I was referring to was comparisons between the Unredeemed and the Redeemed cities. But thank you for proving my point nonetheless.

[coldwarkid]

Originally posted by Fairyn
Is it possible that they fight out of a sense for duty ? When our sons and daughters pick up arms, they do so because the cause is just. It's their heart that drives their honorable actions...
While I don't agree with Omni, I can't deny them their beliefs. That is freedom.

You're missing my original point. A sense of duty towards something is a reason to fight for it. However, in order to do that you have to have a strong sense of self, rooted in the community that you're fighting for. I run into so many faction personel every day who seem to lack that identity. Ask them why they're fighting and they'll respond with the standardized dogma ("For freedom!" or "For order!") but it rings hollow.

I'm not denying that there are faction personel who know exactly what they're fighting for. Somtimes it's for their community or a sense of cultural identity, sometimes it's for an abstract idea.

Sometimes despite all the expressed platitudes, it's for the notum and for personal profit. These people aren't working for their company or their community, they're out for themselves and using their faction as cover.

For all too many though, they fight because that's the way it's always been and they can't see any other future. That's not a good reason, in my opinion.

But I prefer that over indifference. Belief in ANYTHING is better than the belief in nothing.

Fashionable nonsense. Personal belief, however strongly or sincerely held, has NO merit whatsoever unless the idea behind that belief has value of its own. What if someone held the belief that Atroxes were subhuman and fit only for use as beasts of burden, to be exterminated when their usefulness was at an end? Would that make them better than someone who has no strong views one way or the other? I know that the notion sounds ridiculous, but in the past people have held beliefs stranger than that and just as damaging, and held them very sincerely indeed.

If someone says to me "I fight for the clans because I believe Omni Tek is evil and oppresses us all", they'd better be prepared to tell me what makes OT so evil and what makes the clans any better. They'd also better make sense and be prepared to debate the matter in a logical fashion. Just believing in something doesn't make it so, and misguided belief is more dangerous than any amount of indifference or scepticism. If you want to bring me round to your point of view, frame a logical argument and convince me.

However, I do take offense at the idea that neutrality means a lack of belief. Read my original post again and you'll find that I remain neutral because I believe, very strongly, that if either belligerent wins this war, the whole of Rubi-Ka, its people, its society, its economy and its future, will be flushed down the toilet. Is that what you want for your descendants?

If you feel differently, if you believe that a win for your side is the best possible outcome, well...


...convince me.


Cheers,

~R~

[________________Zhik]

Soyuz, you and I agree on a lot of things, though I suspect you must consider me one of those who is mostly out for himself, since I came to Rubi-Ka strictly to make a good life for myself and my someday-to-be family.

Like you, I believe that the best possible outcome for this pointless conflict would be a negotiated settlement that resulted in two healthy and reasonably peaceful factions that kept each other on their toes. Monopolies are bad for business, especially if I'm not in control of them .

What I don't understand is why being neutral is a superior choice? Neutral territories have very few mining opportunities, a much smaller population and technological base, and are often ignored by both the Omni and Clan factions. If you want to bring about a negotiated settlement, wouldn't it make more sense to work within the framework of one of the larger factions? You would potentially have a greater voice and live more comfortably at the same time.

There are moderate Clans... why not join one? Or heck, join OT and try to get into upper management where you can really bring about change.

[________DushbagJones]

Ekey you misinterperate the ICC sanction. That was for rival companies, the Clans are not a recognized governing body of Rubi-Ka thush not allowed in the release. The sanction was lifted due to the OMni-Tek monoply over Notum Mines in which Sol Banking and other Hyper corps wanted to get in on the action. The only thing the ICC did was to protect the persons right to choose a side, Omni-Tek though was stuck to hold a person up on their bargen, once they got to Rubi-Ka they weren't forced to join Omni-Tek. Mabey you should speak to the Omni Rep at the welcome station and readup on history before you call me a liar.

[________DushbagJones]

now to a more acceptibal Topic, i must agree with Soyuz to fight for an idea you do not understand makes you nothing but a slave. to understand an idea and to understand your eneimies idea is a more potent wep. someone who fights for a cause he beleives in and understands is more likely to sacrifice his life to better the cause, but not after taking out as many people as he or she can.
and yes, it is acceptibal to judge a culture by how the treatment of their cities are. the treatment of Omni-2 during it's occuipation is aweful. though i do hear Tir is a nice city, so i consider the treatment of Omni-2 to be more related to the hatred of Omni-Tek. now if at all possible if the Clans could accually form together and become a dingle body in the newly forming CoT then mabey a lasting peace can be obtained. but unless the DB or the Sentenials can be controled through any means then it could happen, until then the Clans are doomed to a constant soceity of warfare and destruction.

[Robtrox]

With a heavy heart and a massive headache I would have to say, with very few exceptions, this is some of the worst drivel I have ever heard! In fact it stinks worse that Contagious Roller Rat piss! Do you REALLY know what you are saying? Go back and check your Comm logs.

Don’t get me wrong; most of you make a valid point or even two. Then again most of you also contradict yourself in one-way or another. Worst of it has to be what can only be called “Unsupported Speculation.” What shop term are you getting the Crystal Balls from and what’s the ql, negative three?

"Well they did this and they did that and they took this and they wouldn’t do this and they want that so they …" ad nuseum! Do ANY of you read the history of Rubi – Ka? And let’s not do the “Winner writes the History” Rinoman poop! What has happened has happened, it will never be changed. If you lie, and the lie is repeated for a hundred years, it will never change what had happened! It simply is not possible, science may one day accomplish this but it has not done so yet! Perhaps Ergo can rearrange the bounds of time but we cannot.

There has never been a contract written or signed that allow for the abuse of a sentient life form! To argue this point is insanity! To argue whether or not it happened is insanity! As so many have so poorly put it “Once their done with them they’ll come after us.” To throw up your hands and say “it’s not MY fight, problem, side, city, faction, Clan, Omni,” is insanity! So what about the Notum, the low morals, the oppression, the chaos, the Omni-Ops, the Dust Brigade? What about them, there have ALWAYS been impediments to the progress of humanity. Get over it, rise above it, do something!

So what to do?

WAKE UP!

[________DushbagJones]

because someone doubts me i took a trip to the welcome area of Rubi-Ka in Omni-1, i talked to the Omni-Tek Officer desguised as a new arrival. Here is what he told me.
Omni-Tek Officer:" Hello Citizen! As a colonist, you're under contract with the Omni-Tek Corporation of RUbi-Ka, which means that you're expected to apply for position with the Corporation upon arrival. Proceed through the blue gate to decend via elevator to Omni-1, or to catch the first shuttle to Rome - you'll be posted wherever the Corporation needs you most!"
i then asked him for information on the Clan and Neutral shuttle ports, he replied thusly.
Omni-Tek Officer:" New ICC regulations state that citizens are free to settle in the area of their choice. Of course, if you choose to travel to Tir or Newland, you will be unable to fulfill your contract with the Omni-Tek Corporation, and your permeant record will reflect this."
before you come into the political forum know your enformation and don't act like a know it all, this is a public forum open to the open minded.

[________________Zhik]

Originally posted by DushbagJones
because someone doubts me i took a trip to the welcome area of Rubi-Ka in Omni-1, i talked to the Omni-Tek Officer desguised as a new arrival. Here is what he told me.
Omni-Tek Officer:" Hello Citizen! As a colonist, you're under contract with the Omni-Tek Corporation of RUbi-Ka, which means that you're expected to apply for position with the Corporation upon arrival. Proceed through the blue gate to decend via elevator to Omni-1, or to catch the first shuttle to Rome - you'll be posted wherever the Corporation needs you most!"
i then asked him for information on the Clan and Neutral shuttle ports, he replied thusly.
Omni-Tek Officer:" New ICC regulations state that citizens are free to settle in the area of their choice. Of course, if you choose to travel to Tir or Newland, you will be unable to fulfill your contract with the Omni-Tek Corporation, and your permeant record will reflect this."
before you come into the political forum know your enformation and don't act like a know it all, this is a public forum open to the open minded.

I don't suppose you talked to the Clan, Neutral, or Jobe reps?

[Eeky]

Once again DushbagJones, you try to water down the truth.

First of all, you spoke to what, only the Omni rep. Did you talk to the Clan rep or the Neutral Reps? I'll take a stab at it and assume no, since you in no way posted what they have to say. Instead you just tow the company line, and say what the company wants you to say.

Ironic enough, you defeat your own argument with the quoted words of your omni rep: "New ICC regulations state that citizens are free to settle in the area of their choice."

First, as far as I'm concerned, ICC regulations come before contracts. What if someone uploaded a new entertainment program to the grid, and it had an end user license agreement stating "If you use this gridprog beyond 90 days you must go on a murderous rampage as a serial killer." Does this mean if you use it for 91 days you have to follow it? NO! Its a violation of law.

Secondly, my original point still stands. If someone comes to Rubi-Ka from non-Omni transportation, and doesn't join Omni, they've come under no contract.

Thirdly, those who are born on Rubi-Ka. They cannot be forced into a contract they didn't sign.

I've come here with plenty of information Dushbag, but you come here with nothing but lies, half-truths and propaganda. You come here claiming you desire peace, but do you really?

As well, on your point of "Judging a culture by their cities." You freely admit that it is a proper choice. Then look at the Unredeemed cities. You see, you try to judge others on trivial criteria, while failing it yourself!!

You claim to have a desire for peace. But what do your actions say? You state half-truths and then call anyone who disagrees with you a liar. You come to Old Athens to insult us and bore us with your rhetoric. Do you think this is the way that peace is accomplished? Why don't you make peace with the cyborgs by preaching anti-tech to them, it would be just as effective.

[________DushbagJones]

you yourself have also not spoken tot he clan, neut or jobe reps. non of the stipulate that you come in under their transport, and no my argurment isn't defeated, as i stated all the ICC did was allow people to choose a different side on Rubi-Ka, Omni-Tek by ICC regulations is the legal owner and sole governor of Rubi-Ka until the lease is up for renewal. both Clan and the Neut reps only speak of wanting to get away from Omni-Tek, and if yo8u even checked the transport you came on you are first aboard the Morning Star space station owned by Omni-Tek as well as the transport that got you there, why else would you be ferried down to Omni-1. if you want i cam go back to the arrival center and speak to everyone to get the written record of no evidense that suggests that there ever were Clan transports, also seeing as the Clans were first established as a Rubi-Ka mining guild, and have never left Rubi-Ka( meaning they have no space transports of their own). The Jobe orgizination was created by scientist from Omni-Tek and thus flew in under Omni-Tek transport and resigned their positions, and they also have never been documented as leaving Rubi-Ka meaning they also have no trnasports. the neuts. are both Omni-Tek and Clan individuals who wanted to esacpe the war, seeing as they are no orgizination or even consider themselves a governing body then they as well can have no transports that ferry colonist down to Rubi-Ka.
it is better to gather your facts before you say something is wrong, or someone is not admiting all the truth. and you should read up on your history, the ICC polocies on the Clans are to shoot on sight, and the Clans hold no legal territory on Rubi-Ka it is considered occupied and legaly under the control of Omni-Tek, based on ICC regualtions concerning the lease of planets to corporations (in Rubi-Ka's case seeing as no one wanted the planet except for them.) The Clans did at one point hold legal land respected by the Omni-Tek corporation until a terrorist attack destroied the truce and then the subsequent inabality for the Clans to offer assistance also destroied the truce, and the agreement between them was null and void.
next time you want to offer your information here, don't bring a knif to a gun fight.

[coldwarkid]

Originally posted by Zhik
What I don't understand is why being neutral is a superior choice? Neutral territories have very few mining opportunities, a much smaller population and technological base, and are often ignored by both the Omni and Clan factions. If you want to bring about a negotiated settlement, wouldn't it make more sense to work within the framework of one of the larger factions? You would potentially have a greater voice and live more comfortably at the same time.

It's a question I've often asked myself.

On a political level, I think that the very fact that towns like Newland, Borealis and Last Ditch exist at all serves to remind people that Rubi-Ka is more than just red vs. blue. They also provide neutral meeting ground, in a very literal sense. Where else could Clan and OT personel meet in troubled times? Certainly neither side would trust a meeting in the other's territory. In other words, I think that the existence of neutrals is valuable to the political process. Certainly the voice of political moderates in the Clans and the Company would be no stronger if we didn't exist.

On a personal level there's a sense of identity, particularly with my birthplace of Borealis. It's an independent town and I just don't think I'd feel right living there if my allegience lay elsewhere.

/me shrugs

Cheers,

~R~

[________________Zhik]

Soyuz:

Fair enough. If you've found a place that holds your loyalty, who am I to tell you you're wrong? Home is where your friends are, right? And there's no question that neutral meeting grounds can be very valuable in my business *grin*. I surely hope that we Clanners will be able to access Newland again soon, speaking of neutral territory. I wish I could trade you Tir access for Newland access, straight up.

And Dushbag:

I think this thread is drifting away from the original intent of your question. Contracts are important, no doubt. Heck, I depend on legal agreements for my livelihood as a Trader! But sometimes a legal document just doesn't reflect reality anymore, and these issues aren't going to be solved with legal hairsplitting.

You're welcome to walk into Clan or Neutral territory with all the legal documents you can carry and try to evict the people living there based on those contracts, for instance. I doubt you'll get very far.

The fact of the matter is that the Clans and the Neutrals are here, and they're here to stay. OT has to deal with us one way or another. I can certainly understand why Omni personnel wouldn't particularly like that truth... but it's still truth.

[Eeky]

DushbagJones, prattling on again. Here we go:

Originally posted by DushbagJones
you yourself have also not spoken tot he clan, neut or jobe reps.

Originally posted by DushbagJones
both Clan and the Neut reps only speak of wanting to get away from Omni-Tek, and if yo8u even checked the transport you came on you are first aboard the Morning Star space station owned by Omni-Tek

Incredible. You contradict yourself in the same message. First you claim that I never talked to Clan or Neutral reps. Then you claim I *had* to be transported to Rubi-Ka. Now I'm not omni... and if I was transported to the planet, and didn't talk to the rep, how do you think I got down, sprouted wings? *laugh*.

Secondly once again you automatically assume that everyone comes from off planet. Atroxes were bred on Rubi-ka, as were Nanomages. They originate here -- they didn't come from somewhere else. Altho in the case of Atrox, they could have left, and come back again. From what I hear, nanomages could in the future with the possible use of a suit, but its not widely available.

Thirdly once again you make assumptions, telling me I'm not a native Rubi-Kan, and there are none.

Originally posted by DushbagJones
it is better to gather your facts before you say something is wrong, or someone is not admiting all the truth. and you should read up on your history, the ICC polocies on the Clans are to shoot on sight

What the... what kinds of stims have you been taking? ICC policies are to shoot clan on sight? *laugh*. That's funny, the last time I went to ICC, the guards didn't shoot me.

Originally posted by DushbagJones
next time you want to offer your information here, don't bring a knif to a gun fight.

Next time you want to have a battle of wits, try to come armed. Or at the very least, without being loaded on stims.

[Xhairs]

There are Solitus, Opifex and Nano mages that are born on Rubi-Ka, and they are growing in numbers by the generation, and those are not under any kind of contractual agreement to work for Omni-Tek. Atrox are born from a test tube, sure, but they are still born here on Rubi-Ka and on all three sides, so those are not under any contractual agreement to work for Omni-Tek either.

Just for the sake of knowledge, Omni-Tek has sold the genetic blueprints for the Opifex and Atrox breed to other Interstellar Corporations, so there are indeed Atrox that can have come from other places than Rubi-Ka

[citadel535]

The clans are entirely unjustified in the origins of their side of story. Omni-Tek funded the original exploratory ships to Rubi-ka. Omni-Tek paid for the development and terraforming processes that continue to this day.

Perhaps Omni-Tek secured exclusive rights to Rubi-ka with illegitimate means. A secondary ICC review of this however, showed that OT was in no fault for claiming ownership of the planet.

Then the miners became disgruntled over their treatment. Noone forced them to stay on the planet. They wanted what Omni-Tek had built and secured for themselves.

They are unwanted. Coming here under the guise of working for the corporation that is the legitimate owner of the rights to the planet.

[________DushbagJones]

i think you might want to read this http://anarchy-online.com/content/ga...past/timeline/ , it's the entier timeline of Rubi-Ka. The nanomage, opifex, and atrox are all genetic variations on the dominate Homo Solotis. And even if you didn't come to this planet via transport, the Clans lack the techonolgy to create the Nanomage species. The Opifex and Atrox are the 2 more versatile species created. The Opifex and Atorx do no have to be created on Rubi-Ka like the nanomage. Thus to be a Nanomage is to be created by the Omni-Tek corporation, meaning you have signed a contract with them as to enhance your genetic structure (cloning is impossible because there can only be one soul at a time on any given place). and your putting words in my mouth, i said to come to Rubi-Ka which can ber interperated into creation as well, you must sign a contract with Omni-Tek. and how is claiming that you never talked to Clan and neut reps and saying you were transported to Rubi-Ka controdictary?