14.2 - General Changes

[Grupert]

One way is to make it so a person is invisable is if they have a conceal rating that is say, for example, 1200. Under that number, they are not, for pvp at least. 1200 is just a number I pulled out of the air, it could be less, or could be more.

[_Tekkor_]

Well one of the biggest problems I see many people afraid of is the whole search radius issue.

Many people will not be able to get perception up to 1000 to get the 40m range. In fact a majority of people....even agents will be around 300-500 or so in perception. So they will only be able to search like 10-20 meters? Thats ridicuulous.

So the problem this creates is say your a level 70 agent and you have a perception of 300. There is a level 20 soldier in the zone with you in sneak mode with a concealment of only 100. But...he is 30m away.....you wont see him even by hitting search even though your perception is 3 times his conceal.

So effectivley a level 5 Enforcer with a conceal of 20 could hide from a level 100 Agent with a perception of 500 as long as he stays over like 25-30m away?

Silly.

[_Tekkor_]

I admit perhaps I am understanding something wrong on this whole thing but if I am someone please explain how I am wrong on this.

[Graxxus]

Something to consider as well is the fact there are a LOT of ways to disengage sneak mode. You don't even have to be in range of someone to prevent them from going back into sneak mode. All ya have to do is hit q and that person targeted will be unable to reinitiate sneak mode. As it is currently stated, the terminology seems to suggest that everyone will be able to use sneak mode to some degree in PvP and it will be effective. There aren't many professions with buffs for perception...one that does come to mind is eagle eye an adventurer nano. Agents will have an advantage by being able to spot you with their high base perception and avoid detection with their high base conceal and buffs for conceal. But we aren't the only professions with buffs for conceal or a high base skill in perception and concealment. Adventurers also have a +200 concealment buff early on in the game. Fixers also have a small conceal buff, as do bureacrats. Fixers also have pretty good concealment and perception. MAs have a pretty decent concealment skill, traders have decent perception.

But if anything else the new changes to concealment will allow everyone to sneak in PvP areas in order to get by PvP players that they don't necessarrily want to fight. From the grid while you are still safe in a 75% zone go into sneak mode and once hidden don't take the normal route to your destination. Stay away from bottleneck areas that are good for ambushes and put yourself /anon. Do these steps and you should be able to go to your intended destination in relative safety. Your chances of avoiding combat would be improved greatly.

For those wanting to PvP you're better off PvPing in a group...but regardless the PvP battles as we know it will change. With everyone in conceal the first person to find someone else initiates combat. With the concealment feedback you will know when someone detects you and it is time to get out of there or call in back up...but you won't know if they are beatable by yourself or not..or their level. Once combat is initiated everyone will be able to see those fighting...since you can't fight and remain hidden. Attacking someone prevents them(and you the attacker) from going back into hiding until combat has stopped. This allows everyone thats hidden the ability to see you too. Small skirmishes turn into big skirmishes with both sides trying to kill the others off. If a lone sniper is killin people at a certain location then bring some back up and take him/her out. Snipers, even pre-12.6 snipers, might be able to take one guy out if he/she is lucky but they don't stand much of a chance against a group.

[Mattie]

Originally posted by Crung
Thanks Cosmik, the invisiblity part is the most worrisome for me. Anyone who doesn't think bad things come with invisible players only needs to play Dark Age of Camelot. It's an incredibly powerful ability. I dread the thought of PVP ever becoming like it was in DAoC. *shiver*

and whats wrong with giving us a powerfull ability? If you dont like it, then you better start maxing pereption, finding an advent or fixer to buff that perception, and geting some perception implants. Otherwise stay out of pvp zones, or your going to get a gimp aimedshot to your head from my rifle

[_________DRunkdRiveR]

to quote scipio from the agent sector forums,

"Whiners cying for nerfs even before they hit live... "

I understand that everyone is entitled to thier own opinions, but is no one willing to give fun com the benefit of the doubt?

not even a little?

[_________RpTheHotrod]

invisibility is the worst idea I've seen in AO.


DAoC did it, and it ruined the game. DAoC lost about a quarter to half their players due to that.

[__________starknaked]

I'll repeat a few things I've said before. I see 2 major problems here.

1. The majority of players in the game will have a tiny search radius of about 15 or 20 meters. This will allow most anyone in the game to stand outside the search radius, and with concealment implants and a cloaking device and some sort of concealment buff they will be invisible to others. So the PVP zones will be full of invisible players.

2. Concealment may be useless once someone is within your search radius. It doesn't do me any good to have a concealment of 1600 or whatever, giving someone only a 5% chance of spotting me using the search command, if they can just ram on the Search button 50 times in 2 seconds.

So, I have a feeling that this whole thing is gonna be a huge mess, and not work at all like it should.

[_________haniblecter]

WHINERS CRYING FOR NERF BEFORE IT EVEN HITS THE SEVERS....BAH!

[_________haniblecter]

All it allows is first strike capability....thats all.

[speardancer2]

This whole thing is not ready for live action as-is.

The way that stealth is currently proposed to go into game just isn't right.

I can deal with the idea that someone with a high concelment will not be able to be seen by someone with a low perception.

May I propose a new system, allowing for a passive search and active search....

Passive search will just be when a person is standing around, not really doing anything.

Active search will be when the player actively uses their search ablility to look for hidden things.

So, for your basic, <1000 concealment (just to use funcom's number)

in a passive search, your skill check vs the concealed person would be at 75% of your skill under 20 meters, and 50% from 20-40 meters (edge of perception).

this means someone with a 200 skill, would have a 100% chance to see anyone with a conceal of 150 or below under 20 meters, and 100 or below at 20-40 meters. Higher skills would be adjusted on the skill vs skill.

Now, when they do an active search, it performs at 100% of their skill under 20 meters, and 75% from 20-40 meters.

I'm not going to spell out the numbers on that one, most of you can figure it out.

And then when you get the skill above 1000, you no longer receive a penalty in the 20-40 meter range.


So, anyone else like this?

[Graxxus]

To put this in a different perspective:

0- 149 perception= 5m search radius
150 perception= 6m search radius
200 perception= 8m search radius
250 perception=10m search radius
300 perception=12m search radius
400 perception=16m search radius
500 perception=20m search radius
600 perception=24m search radius
700 perception=28m search radius
800 perception=32m search radius
900 perception=36m search radius
950 perception=38m search radius
1000 perception=40m search radius

People really underestimate how a % chance based detection system works in this game. If a search is instantaneous every time you hit the search button, then there is nothing stopping you from increasing your odds of detection by spamming the search button. Eventually you will detect anyone within your search radius. Basically the detection of hidden players uses the same basis as lockpicking chests and doors for anything in their search radius. If you have time and what you are hunting is in your search radius in the first place, then you will find it eventually. It all depends on how fast and how often you hit the search key, just a matter of time like picking locks is currently. Setting a limit as to how fast you can spam search would help reduce the ease as to which mobs/players would be able to detect you once you are within their search radius. It should take at least a few seconds to search an area. The larger the area being searched, the longer it should take.

As is sneaking will seem to be more effective due to the small search radii of mobs at lower level. Once they start going against harder mobs around 150-160+ mob perception at around that point will be fairly likely to be at or near 1000. And we'll be in the same predicament that we're in now as far as the unreliability of concealment and more specifically aimed shot at higher levels.

Mobs search too quickly and have too wide of a search radius even at low levels now which is a big reason why concealment isn't very effective atm(referring to current patch 14.0 not 14.2).

We have yet to actually see what it will be like having two sneaking combatants looking for each other in a PvP setting in this game. Your perception skill does help when hunting someone who doesn't want to be found. I'm curious about this implementation especially if mobs will have stats similar to what a player of that level will have.

With this setup mobs would be more limited as to how far they could detect me...allowing me to get in a position well outside their search radius and guarantee a successful aimed shot at certain distances early on in your career. By the time mobs get close to 40m scan range we'll have more concealment buffs at our disposal to get by their perception and successfully fire aimed shot...without having to hit O about 20-30 times. I do feel however that aimed shot in PvP should go under the same concealment vs perception checks that we have to abide by in PvM.

If people do actually start using sneak tactics in PvP maybe they'll finally understand some of the quirkiness of concealment and the fact that just about everything you do breaks sneak mode.

[_____________arsiine]

make it fixer, adv, agent only. Give 3 of the gimp classes some more power.

[_____________arsiine]

I am unfamilliar with DAoC so can any of you guys that have played this game and know why invisibility was bad please go into a little bit more detail then simply, 'it ruined DAoC".

[_______________Crung]

In DAoC you have a stealth skill. Your skill determines both how effectively you can hide as well as how effectively you can spot others who are hidden. Now the rogue class was given the advantage of being able to see others who were stealthed at full range. The rest could only spot them within very close range. So far it doesn't sound bad, right?

The problem came in when they gave archers stealth and a ranged attack. Now you have someone stealthed, able to hit you from a distance (losing stealth), and you (for the majority of classes) can only see them at almost point blank range. They can attack you, kill you, and stealth again before anyone with you can get close enough to attack them. The sniper can then walk away almost without worry since they can't be detected from more than 5ft away. So they pick targets as they feel like it without worry of anyone finding them.

What did this result in? Everyone needing a group just to walk into a PVP because snipers were EVERYWHERE. Since the snipers couldn't even see each other most of the time they ended up using their ability to look for lowbies to kill. Everyone was making archers just so they could sit in PVP zones and snipe all day. It made for a very boring or very frustrating game depending on if you were the sniper or the snipee.

Now I realize AO has things set up differently. It may turn out to work fine. If it doesn't though then it's a big problem. It will effect PVP tremendously. Even if it does work it will make a huge impact on PVP. Do you PVP because you want to find someone to fight or do you go PVP because you want to wander around in sneak mode all day hoping to stumble into someone else wandering around in sneak mode? I'm not against it being implemented, in fact I like the idea. I'm against it being implemented wrong and ruining the PVP aspect of the game.

So before someone else decides to quote me and then throw in thier hormonally imbalanced, witty reply really think about it. Think about **all** the ways it can impact the game. Done right this could be better than sliced bread, done wrong and it could make a great game of solitaire. Once it's in the game it's going to be a lot harder to change the way it works without upsetting people. So I'd like to see it put in when the repercussions have been addressed...ahead of time. As for why not give "you" a powerful ability? No reason not too, as long as it doesn't screw up the game in doing so. It's not the idea that some person with more time than friends will wait all day to snipe me that worries me. It's the idea that PVP could potentially come to a screeching hault. Do not make invisibility too powerful.


*P.S. If I sound like a ******** I don't really care. I'm tired, it's late, and these are the AO forums so I don't expect to see Martha Stuart in here anytime soon.

[Mattie]

Originally posted by Crung
What did this result in? Everyone needing a group just to walk into a PVP because snipers were EVERYWHERE. Since the snipers couldn't even see each other most of the time they ended up using their ability to look for lowbies to kill. Everyone was making archers just so they could sit in PVP zones and snipe all day. It made for a very boring or very frustrating game depending on if you were the sniper or the snipee.

and whats wrong with everyone needing a group? pvp would be much better if funcom would get off ther a** and make group pvp something good. And i dont think you will hear fixers/advents complain about someone finally needing those perception buffs of theres. Anything that makes them more needed will be great. Maybe funcom will even add some perception buffs that are fairly good, then maybe people will only go pvp if they have a fixer or advent.. wow that would be odd actually needing a fixer :P

why dont you see how it works out before you scream for a nerf? I hate people like you. Give it a shot before you have funcom nerf us again. Shut your hole til you see how it works.

[Scipio]

Crung started by referring to earlier RPG's, and made it sound like no MMORPG has ever been able to implement PvP and invisiblity successfully. That's simply untrue. I come from UO, which I played for quite a while. Concealment was never a problem there, nor did it unbalance PvP. In fact, it often helped players to escape "PKs" and "grief players", and gave PvP an interesting aspect. This hasn't been addressed here at all.

Crung's posts here has become better since that first one, as it turned out that he was really referring to a game released after AO. I haven't tried that one nor do I intend to, so I won't comment it. To me, invisible players could be a very nice aspect of PvP. After all, PvP on Rubi-Ka is not about massive stand-up battles, it's about guerilla warfare and skirmishes (the game can't handle anything else anyway). Invisibility in PvP could actually mean that players need to use tactics, something that's sorely missing today. That's why I'm all for it.

However, I'm with Tekkor and Starknaked et al, I think the issue to be worried about is this detection range thing. We all know that most players don't have very high perception. At the same time, I'm all for the idea that to be a good at PvP solo you should raise your perception some. There's nothing wrong with that. The basic 75% detection chance seems OK to me (without really knowing), but the range should be considerably higher. At the same time, this has to be balanced against the firing range on weapons, and that range is mostly very short.

I think a lot of testing has to be done here. But since PvP is so seriously unbalanced and ruined as is, I'm not sure it'll help much to really determine what impact it will have.

[____________Horatius]

in my experience using the /quit command is way faster than logging, and i use a program called FreeMem to free up as much ram as possible, i usually free up about 70% before (re)starting AO, and i dont have to reboot for hours, even on my pc! (it sucks)

[Graxxus]

What I want to know is will PvM concealment/perception checks be based on the same principle as it will be in PvP? Also will concealment/perception checks be activated in PvP now since you will finally be able to use conceal in PvP? Will line of sight factor into perception checks at all (curious about perception through walls in mission areas)?

The problem with concealment/perception checks currently is that all mobs appear to have a 40m search radius and they spam search through walls. Even mobs with low perception skill detect us because if they have any chance of detecting us at all they will eventually.

This "fix" toward concealment will help lower level agents more than higher level agents due mainly to the reduced search radii of mobs and players. But once mob perception hits 1000 we'll be in the same situation we're in now.

A limitation to how fast mobs and players can search their full search radius as well as limiting the search radius to line of sight(not through walls) would help make concealment more effective once we are within the mob's/player's search radius.

The current idea to balance concealment/perception increases the value of perception. However concealment is devalued due to the spamability of search and the ability to detect players (in sneak mode) through walls.

[Scipio]

Good post, Graxxus! These things have to be made clear. As you point out, these "detection checks" are evidently done through walls by mobs, as if they had x-ray vision. That's a problem, and it won't get better if it works this way in PVP.

How about this slogan:
"NERF MOBS' X-RAY VISION!!!"