Traders are BETTER at healing the DOCS! Fix! Bump

[_____________Calenth]

Another thing is that the team heals were one of the few trade-offs that worked, that is, where things were actually exchanged for other things in a wortwhile way for the player. The drains don't debuff mobs, so there's no exchange there. The AC drains and nano drains have severe flaws that make their use pointless. The wrangles have such short durations, such high NCU costs, and so severely penalize the trader, that they're generally useless in moment to moment team play.

So, yes, we love the concept of exchange and tradeoff. Please, like, put it in the game? This heal change may be a good sign, if it can get them to finally give the trader class some serious attention. The team heals probably do need weakening, but above all what the class needs is attention.

[Sheffy]

It's interesting to me that the players have to do the math behind proposed changes instead of Funcom before they make a change, or even decide on a change.

That's assuming they didn't. Maybe they did the same math Mr. Bean did and decided Traders shouldn't be the healers they are now, and that they should simply be backup (waaaay backup) team healers to those professions which mainly heal.

Note that the single-target heals are not being affected by this, so as a Trader waits for his DoT to wear off, he can still spam single-target heals on himself or other teammates getting beat on, or even use the health funnels on the enemy (don't laugh yet, see further down).

And before you say "But Trader single-heals suck!," well, I'm not a high level trader so I can not comment on the heals specifically, however from what I've seen at lower levels, they do what a Trader is described as doing -- trading his health for that of a team member (or just a little extra for himself if self-casting). Again, a backup healing profession. Sounds good to me.

Though, if this change is made, I would really like to see the funnels be upped a bit more as the QL of the nano goes up so that it is more linear with the increase in difficulty of the mobs. At higher levels, they're pretty much a joke from what I've seen with Traders in my group, and from what I've heard from Traders and on the forums.

Still unsure of how he feels about all this,

--Tsk

[_____________Calenth]

The problem with single-target heals is that the team health displays are so bugged that single-target heals aren't useful in combat. The reason there's so much emphasis on team heals is that single-target healing just isn't practical due to the state of the health bar displays.

This is yet another bug that makes the (relatively slight) imbalance between trader and doc team heals even more prominent, because the payoff for team heals isn't as severe as the payoff for single target heals -- though the single targets are more powerful and would generally be more effective if the health bar displays worked.

This bug also makes the team heal nerf all that more painful, because it prevents traders from realistically using their single-target heals -- you simply cannot risk burning your own health to heal someone else if you're just guessing as to whether they're injured or not.

I agree that the health funnel line needs examination and heavy tweaking upwards. It was designed to function when you could shoot at the same time that you cast.

[_______________Vydas]

Well, according to the why doctors use team heal thread on the doc forum, there are 3 main reasons:

HP bar bug

Fast paced (not enough time to really see who is hurting)

Low single heal amounts

Pretty much same deal for all healing classes, backup or primary, it would seem.

[gnuman]

Well, Cosmik now that you want us nerfed I would like our concerns adressed so please go to the trader forum and answer some of our concerns. I think you can find a few posts in the trader forum explaining what is wrong.

Top 10 Concerns is a start. And several of the threads started since this nerf was announced.

[_________________bob]

Here are 3 simple criteria for what I think would constitute a good solution to the Trader Team Heal problem.

1) Having a clear and significant trade-off for casting the team heal (whether a DoT, DD or whatever).

2) Ensure that this trade-off is paid by the trader for every single cast of the Team Heal (unlike the current TH situation, but like the situation for the single heal).

3) Do 1&2 without severely limiting the Trader's choice about when and whether to make the trade-off.

IMHO The proposed change meets criteria 1&2, but does not meet criteria 3.

[_______________Vydas]

Hehe, with sarcasim on, of course it meets # 3. The answer is never .

With sarcasm off, I have no issue with 1 ane 2. But I am hung up enough of the timing that I will abandon this character as a team member should 15 seconds be the final recast time.

On a side note, though, the only way I see number 2 as being a reality would be stacking dots. As has been discussed elsewhere, there is no other nano in existence that stacks on itself, they are all refreshed. If that were introduced it might not be such a good thing, unless it were confined to this one specific nano line. Otherwise, we might get such phenomena as stacking debuffs, other stacking DoTs and things that I think nobody really wants.

[_____________Mr Bean]

More Math From Mr Bean

Actualy I've been looking at other heals

Traders with this new Nerf are now the worst Healing Proffesion even
MA's are better at QL 132 to PDHP
http://antiguardians.org/itemdb.php...nano=1&id=82046
Can be casted twice during our 15 seconds of waiting and on any nano but PDHP it will easy heal for more


Adventures are Better QL 156
http://antiguardians.org/itemdb.php...nano=1&id=82052
Which can be cast 3 times for each PDHP we can cast

And of course Docs at lvl 93
http://antiguardians.org/itemdb.php...nano=1&id=43907
They can cast this 4 times for Each PDHP even hitting for minium each time they will get 1k worth of healing


Ok ok thats just it for tonight this is, At best a hasty fix at worse somthing that was a swing and a miss with the nerf bat

[xbmspec]

Somebody has to be last, eh?

[xbmspec]

First off, let me say that this change to the Trader team heals (read team heals) is not being done because of this thread and/or others similar. We did not read the comments and constructive arguments within and go "Doctors feel their team heals aren't enough? Forget a boost, let's nerf Traders!". We are not trying to set the two apart by merely changing the ability of the Trader team heals and not increasing the Doctor team heals. It seems to be a feeling here and I wanted to debunk it because it seemed to be a common reaction to my previous post and is completely wrong.

As stated by some in this thread that already got the information, this change is being done because the way Trader team heals work right now is bugged. Right now Traders can execute the team heals and shrug off the DOT - that was never the intention and if left as it is now, is too powerful. So, the change is being made so the DOT has more of an effect (as it should) and fit in more with the idea of what the Trader is about. What do I mean, exactly? Well, the Trader nanos are all about giving and taking. You've got Redeem AC nanos that take AC from the Trader and give AC to the target. You've got Wranglers that lower the attack skills of the Trader and give attack skills to the target. Also, you've got Health Payments which take health from the Trader and give health to the team - the thing here is that this line was bugged and, as said, the health taken from the Trader could be easily shrugged off, thereby making the line more powerful than intended.

So, what's being done to fix this? The DOT is being changed so that it must take its full duration before another team heal can be performed. However, because the duration of the DOT is too long right now to make the team heals useful, the duration of the DOT is being lowered to 15 seconds. The healing amount, execution and nano cost of the heal team nanos stay the same, so they are still a vvery worthwhile nano, but the fix here is resulting in the team heal line fitting in more with what the Trader is about and the DOT is now something the Trader must pay a bit more attention to. In short, a very good heal line was bugged, needs fixing, and will remain a good heal line.

And yes, we are looking into the PvP and heal issue as well. I'll bring you more information on that soon.

And you made the Doctors look like the blame for all this nerf stick throwing, clever.

[Letah]

Thanks Cosmik

Let's just wait till they give us more details, obviously fc is still working on it.

[_____________Mr Bean]

We can only hope

As I posted elsewhere 15 seconds lets a lvl 80 Doc outheal a level 200 Trader
A level 120 MA Can outheal a lvl 200 Trader too
As can a level 140 Adventurer

[___________Zyxlquith]

Originally posted by Cosmik


So, what's being done to fix this? The DOT is being changed so that it must take its full duration before another team heal can be performed. However, because the duration of the DOT is too long right now to make the team heals useful, the duration of the DOT is being lowered to 15 seconds. The healing amount, execution and nano cost of the heal team nanos stay the same, so they are still a vvery worthwhile nano, but the fix here is resulting in the team heal line fitting in more with what the Trader is about and the DOT is now something the Trader must pay a bit more attention to. In short, a very good heal line was bugged, needs fixing, and will remain a good heal line.

two points of contention:

1. with a 15 second heal gap, that line becomes *useless* at all levels

2. Increasing the DoT to full damage at all levels will make the penalty for healing sharp enough. traders already heal themselves to death with this line


Really, if you put this in wiht the 15 second heal-gap, NO ONE WILL USE THIS HEAL. it will not be a "very worthwhile nano", but a nano never used.

The line is bugegd, does need fixing, but that proposed "fix" will not allow it to remain a good heal line.

thanks for the straight answer though

zyx

[_______________Verro]

I dont need to repeat what everyone has said, just adding that this solution is not a working one and hope you will rethink this issue when it will affect our whole profession so bad that i will have to retire my trader cause it will be totally gimped.

[_____________Mistell]

well after reading a gazillion posts all over funcom forums its all been said from every view imaginable. I am certain Funcom will do the worst possible scenerio for traders. Comp lit buffs nerfed, heals going to be nerfed, wrangles will be nerfed, then I forsee shotties being nerfed. Mainly due to pvp and evil ma crit buffs.

I for one will be not be sitting with the masses shouting, In Team Need Doc. Seems if you gimp the 2nd best team healer in game that well, looks like only one class will be able to save the teams ass now. Thanks for making pve play more difficult - hope you have fun.

I would suggest Cosmik or Cz post an official (in depth) explanation on what exactly is going to be happening with traders and docs. Many many posts of upset and argumentative people, give us an answer so we can go ahead and quit or reroll a new profession.

I also think traders would like to know how debuff lines with wrangle lines will work after oe patch, will traders need to debuff every 2 min to wrangle team for 2 min? I read somewhere that times were being tweaked.


Oh and my last gripe, Cosmik I believe called the trader team heals bugged. Er um after a Freaking year of play its not a bug. Perhaps unbalanced feature that recently came to your attention, but bug please. Guess Anarchy Online has a involving story line bug occuring, especially on Rubi 2...

[_____________Mistell]

QUOTE
Another thing is that the team heals were one of the few trade-offs that worked, that is, where things were actually exchanged for other things in a wortwhile way for the player. The drains don't debuff mobs, so there's no exchange there. The AC drains and nano drains have severe flaws that make their use pointless. The wrangles have such short durations, such high NCU costs, and so severely penalize the trader, that they're generally useless in moment to moment team play.

So, yes, we love the concept of exchange and tradeoff. Please, like, put it in the game? This heal change may be a good sign, if it can get them to finally give the trader class some serious attention. The team heals probably do need weakening, but above all what the class needs is attention.
END QUOTE

Calenth pointed it out well!

[_____________Pinfall]

Cosmic:


First off, let me say that this change to the Trader team heals (read team heals) is not being done because of this thread and/or others similar. We did not read the comments and constructive arguments within and go "Doctors feel their team heals aren't enough? Forget a boost, let's nerf Traders!". We are not trying to set the two apart by merely changing the ability of the Trader team heals and not increasing the Doctor team heals. It seems to be a feeling here and I wanted to debunk it because it seemed to be a common reaction to my previous post and is completely wrong.

As stated by some in this thread that already got the information, this change is being done because the way Trader team heals work right now is bugged. Right now Traders can execute the team heals and shrug off the DOT - that was never the intention and if left as it is now, is too powerful. So, the change is being made so the DOT has more of an effect (as it should) and fit in more with the idea of what the Trader is about. What do I mean, exactly? Well, the Trader nanos are all about giving and taking. You've got Redeem AC nanos that take AC from the Trader and give AC to the target. You've got Wranglers that lower the attack skills of the Trader and give attack skills to the target. Also, you've got Health Payments which take health from the Trader and give health to the team - the thing here is that this line was bugged and, as said, the health taken from the Trader could be easily shrugged off, thereby making the line more powerful than intended.

So, what's being done to fix this? The DOT is being changed so that it must take its full duration before another team heal can be performed. However, because the duration of the DOT is too long right now to make the team heals useful, the duration of the DOT is being lowered to 15 seconds. The healing amount, execution and nano cost of the heal team nanos stay the same, so they are still a vvery worthwhile nano, but the fix here is resulting in the team heal line fitting in more with what the Trader is about and the DOT is now something the Trader must pay a bit more attention to. In short, a very good heal line was bugged, needs fixing, and will remain a good heal line.



End Quote:


Nice.... Gee lets try to fix some of the many BROKEN nanos that Traders have BEFORE the nerf stick comes out! And BTW this IS a nerf and I cant believe Funcom isnt fixing other things before this. Spend some time fixing stuff before you attempt to "BALANCE" as you call it. It just dose not make sense to change anything before you fix things. ALSO.. wouldnt it be a better idea to buff the Docs heal instead of RUINING a class that DOSE NOT need anything else to go up agianst when we attempt to search for a group!!

[Kuro]

I must respectfully say I don't buy it. Healing held about as much attraction to me as a root canal sans anesthetic. I did it because I could when the team needed it. After this change goes through however, you can keep whatever credit/time sink you thought aquiring those nanos might provide. To have the worst healing ability (cause in healing frequency matters almost as much as amount) at a cost of my HP + my nanopoints + the aggro healing causes?

Sack it. I'm not going to wave my butt in front of the mobs, begging for him to start kicking it while I'm taking damage from my own nano, and be the worst at it too.

EDIT

And yes, I do think this change came about because of this idiotic whine thread that couldn't focus on the real issue (that the doctor's other abilities besides direct healing were trivialized in comparison to any backup healer + their other abilities) and focused on someone's belief the traders were better than she was.

[BGumble]

Originally posted by Cosmik


<snipped poor attempt to disguise a nerf>

Ahh Cosmik how hard it must be for you to have to write something as foul smelling as the above. Its pretty obvious that Funcom want to slow down the levelling rate and have decided to remove one of the healing options (knowing that there are very few doctors around). How distressing it must be for you having to invent words to justify a nerf while making it sound like sweet smelling common sense.

Anyway, the main points are:-

At 15 seconds a trader heal becomes twice as slow as an MA and 3 times as slow as an Advent.

A trader pays for this heal with Nano cost, Locked out healing and *large* health drain. - No other class suffers this penalty.

At 15 seconds the nano will be unused and unusable (thats not including the time it takes to get the Dot health back. Do you seriously expect us to sit down and heal twice (thats what I'd have to do to get the DoT back from the heal I use) alternatively I could spend about 20 seconds casting three health plunders.

Cool, we get to heal every 25 seconds at a major risk to ourselves.

I'll say it again because you are obviously not following:

** AT 15 SECONDS THE DHP LINE WILL BE UNUSED NANOS**

Yes, thats right, you aren't changing it a little, you are taking it away from us entirely. 15 seconds is more than enough time for a teammate to go from full health to zero health and the DoT component makes it far to risky for me to lose more than half my hitpoints during a fight - one shift in aggro and I'm dead.

Why not just be *honest* with us, this isn't in any way a bug fix (the heals aren't bugged btw they do exactly as the description says), nor is this a change to make the nano slightly less powerful its purely and simply a removal of a capability.

For what its worth you could have doubled or quadrupled the DoT so that the heal only heals us for a fraction of the stated amount, or you could have given us a single instantaneous DoT which removes 30% more health than the team heal value - either of those would have left the nano dangerous but usable. You could have increased the recharge time by 20% or doubled the nano cost, you could have removed the top few DHP's or increased the BioMet requirement but no, you've decided to take away the capability and try to convince us you haven't.

25 second heal? yes please, that will really come in handy.

[______________Maxwel]

Title of this thread

Traders are BETTER at healing the DOCS! Fix! Bump

"Just want to say that I've been keeping up to speed on this thread, and to also bring some news about Trader heals. "
Cosmik

"A change is going to be made to the Trader team heals. ...So, over time, a Doctor will heal for more (as should be the case)."
Cosmik

"First off, let me say that this change to the Trader team heals (read team heals) is not being done because of this thread..."
Cosmik


Face it, Funcom folds faster then Superman on laundry day