Traders are BETTER at healing the DOCS! Fix! Bump

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Terranigma
Bob you're a great writer you have sumed up all which I think is right from a much better explaination

What i'm trying to tell people is dat nerfs are actually fixes which seem to be implied as another view as if weakening a class people think nerfs are bad because it removes a portion of their abilities , but they do not reliase if the problem was solved in reverse it'll only be worse and generate more problems.


if you raise the docs skill docs will become better healers but traders are still superb healers and the other healing proffesions will still see traders as the super class > better healers, plus now they will see that the doc proffesion is overpowered and it'll lead to many other problems like too good healing and so on

if you nerf the traders then docs will become best at healing and the trader will go back to secondary healing which they are meant to be in current traders will feel this as a stupid nerf because they are losing a ability which they shouldn't have in the first place. They do not realise this is actually a fix to the games balance Funcom is already nice to leave the heal line to traders with all the other stuffs they've got already like calm , root and super shotgun.

even if the damage was completed to full damage it might not be usefull because the traders can still chaincast. I cna only see Funcom's solution to be well planned and thought out and most of all they planned it to be the easiest solution : (

No, I think this is a stupid nerf for the following reasons

1. The arguements concerning Trader healing vs Doctor healings have mostly involved attempted straight comparisons of amount of HP healed. That ignores the cost to attain the ability to cast the nanos (both in credits/time/risk and in IP expenditure) and the additional price: that Traders have to pay for that healing out of their own HP.
2. The nerf is being based the effectiveness of known bugged mechanics which, currently, reduces the price Traders have to pay for their healing abilities. The damage done is halved by PvP rules, the damage does not stack which allows multiple executions for almost the same price as one execution, and the team heals work outside a team on the person executing the nano. The safest thing to assume for Traders is that these bugs will be fixed, especially now.
3. The root complaint was the fact that Traders were being chosen over Doctors because the Doctor's additional abilities to keep team members alive is currently trivialized by the length of battles. Traders brought other desired skills/abilities to teams while the Doctor's other abilities, which lend themselves very well towards team survival, were not needed. The upcoming changes to critical damage and overequipping have the effect of lengthing fights, which will provide a natural boost in Doctor desirablility by themselves.
4. The Doctor's team healing ability could have been improved while not as drastically affecting the Trader team healing ability simply by swapping the min damages on the comparable QL team heals, providing a wider range in trader team heals while lowering the average damage healed without reducing when those heals would be availible. And narrowing the range of doctor team heals and raising the average damage healed, making them more desirable as a team member when they're availible while leaving traders a viable option when they aren't.
5. With the 14.2 OE changes nullifying the value of skill wrangles as a credit source and the 14.2 critical damage changes significantly reducing the damage the weapon chosen by a lot of traders, our desirability in teams and a significant source of credits will will be reduced simultaneously. While most traders were prepared to deal with that, a new announced change that would significantly reduce the profession's desirability is not welcomed at all. Especially when nothing has been said to address the bugs in the profession which, for the most part, Traders were content to wait patiently on.

[__________Terranigma]

yes vydas but nerfing seems at this point to funcom the easiest way to solve and we cannot see the problems they face because we ar enot the developers. There might be something behind like more programming needed to up the heals and balanced. I'm sure they have discussed the issu internally already : )

[__________Terranigma]

I might be unclear kuroshio , but did the dots stack before the pvp bug?

many things you mention might be easy to change on paper but it mgiht be very complicated to change under the programming.

natural boost? so what the oe change lengths the battles , but traders still heal more now faster and more what has changed to become more doc desirable? Traders still have all the stuff like roots and calm. I don't believe traders will be so nerfed as you described just think with a little maths then traders can probaly get around the OE problem.

"The Doctor's team healing ability could have been improved while not as drastically affecting the Trader team healing ability simply by swapping the min damages on the comparable QL team heals, providing a wider range in trader team heals while lowering the average damage healed without reducing when those heals would be availible. And narrowing the range of doctor team heals and raising the average damage healed, making them more desirable as a team member when they're availible while leaving traders a viable option when they aren't. "

Easy to say , but easy to do? It's a good idea that I haven't thought of before then that would not lead to unbalance issued.Nice Idea

maybe we just have a diffferent view but i'm sure you would like the solution to come out as fast as possible if people like us continue to argue then Funcom wil end up taking months to solve the problems , because they could'nt decide what was right and what was wrong

[_______________Vydas]

To be honest, this statement:

"Erk, yes, I forgot to mention that I believe the DOT duration is being decreased. I'll confirm that and get back to you."

which is, btw, the most recent official one we have on the subject, does not inspire much confidence in me that any sort of internal discussion had happened, at least up to that point. The words 'believe' and 'confirm' lend a tenuous note that don't allow me to share your sense of comfort.

That aside, it's very clear that if the penalty for a trader to cast a team heal is too severe, they simply will not do it, as it would be folly. That will not be good for anyone.

But, I'm repeating myself here - you want to destroy, and I don't. There you have it, we stand very far apart on the issue, and I'm content with my position.

[__________Terranigma]

Err is dat statement toward me? To destroy

anyways so what yah want funcom to do increase the docs heal? then generate another post about Doctors heal too much or mobs too easily defeated? Nerf is not destruction they are not destroying thee trader proffesion they can still heal , but just now as much why do you see it as a nerf? It's going to be hard to boost the doc's healing by a bit just a bit might change the entire games balance.

so you're point is that nerf is when a proffesion gets destroyed and fix is when a proffesion gets upgraded. So why the only fix to a proffesion is to upgrade can't it work in reverse? by "Nerfing" a proffesion it can allow the game to achieve balance the same way as boosting a proffesion. Can't you see it? So my point is dat if i'm weak and you're strong. I can weaken you to make us both equals , the same way as if you made me strong. Strong - Strong > Weak - Weak are both balanced its just the way you people see it. Both ways are acceptable fix

[_____________Calenth]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


No, I think this is a stupid nerf for the following reasons

1. The arguements concerning Trader healing vs Doctor healings have mostly involved attempted straight comparisons of amount of HP healed. That ignores the cost to attain the ability to cast the nanos (both in credits/time/risk and in IP expenditure) and the additional price: that Traders have to pay for that healing out of their own HP.
2. The nerf is being based the effectiveness of known bugged mechanics which, currently, reduces the price Traders have to pay for their healing abilities. The damage done is halved by PvP rules, the damage does not stack which allows multiple executions for almost the same price as one execution, and the team heals work outside a team on the person executing the nano. The safest thing to assume for Traders is that these bugs will be fixed, especially now.
3. The root complaint was the fact that Traders were being chosen over Doctors because the Doctor's additional abilities to keep team members alive is currently trivialized by the length of battles. Traders brought other desired skills/abilities to teams while the Doctor's other abilities, which lend themselves very well towards team survival, were not needed. The upcoming changes to critical damage and overequipping have the effect of lengthing fights, which will provide a natural boost in Doctor desirablility by themselves.
4. The Doctor's team healing ability could have been improved while not as drastically affecting the Trader team healing ability simply by swapping the min damages on the comparable QL team heals, providing a wider range in trader team heals while lowering the average damage healed without reducing when those heals would be availible. And narrowing the range of doctor team heals and raising the average damage healed, making them more desirable as a team member when they're availible while leaving traders a viable option when they aren't.
5. With the 14.2 OE changes nullifying the value of skill wrangles as a credit source and the 14.2 critical damage changes significantly reducing the damage the weapon chosen by a lot of traders, our desirability in teams and a significant source of credits will will be reduced simultaneously. While most traders were prepared to deal with that, a new announced change that would significantly reduce the profession's desirability is not welcomed at all. Especially when nothing has been said to address the bugs in the profession which, for the most part, Traders were content to wait patiently on.

That sums up the debate to this point very effectively. Thank you.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Terranigma
I might be unclear kuroshio , but did the dots stack before the pvp bug?

From the description of every Trader Delayed Health Payment (Trader team heals)

The caster pays for this by slowly losing small amounts of health for the duration of the formula.

It's a logic error that's been in the game since the beginning but didn't really get noticed till the PvP change caused the half damage bug. Since the nano has a duration of 0, the damage should be an "all at one time" hit, just like the health hagglers (Trader single target heals). If they were supposed to have a duration, then the Delayed Health Payments were supposed to function like Heal over Time nanos instead of dealing all the health in one shot.

Originally posted by Terranigma

many things you mention might be easy to change on paper but it mgiht be very complicated to change under the programming.

natural boost? so what the oe change lengths the battles , but traders still heal more now faster and more what has changed to become more doc desirable? Traders still have all the stuff like roots and calm. I don't believe traders will be so nerfed as you described just think with a little maths then traders can probaly get around the OE problem.

In a short term battle, which has been most of AO to this point excluding boss mobs, a init debuff on a mob doesn't offset much incoming damage. If the mob dies in 15 seconds from the overequipped team with the over-the-top crit enhancements prior to 14.2, what has an init debuff done to offset damage? If a mob dies so fast that the damage it does can be repaired by straight healing, what good is a HP buff from doctor on the tank (which is where Traders and MAs stole Doctor's thunder). What good are the Doctor DoTs if the most they'll be able to do is tick once or twice before the mob is dead? This is where the secondary healers outperformed the Doctor: there was no need nor value in the additional skills the Doctor had to offer. The difference in desirability become much more evident when the team is facing a red mob that can be found anywhere in AO versus fighting a boss mob in a team mission.

Originally posted by Terranigma

"The Doctor's team healing ability could have been improved while not as drastically affecting the Trader team healing ability simply by swapping the min damages on the comparable QL team heals, providing a wider range in trader team heals while lowering the average damage healed without reducing when those heals would be availible. And narrowing the range of doctor team heals and raising the average damage healed, making them more desirable as a team member when they're availible while leaving traders a viable option when they aren't. "

Easy to say , but easy to do? It's a good idea that I haven't thought of before then that would not lead to unbalance issued.Nice Idea

maybe we just have a diffferent view but i'm sure you would like the solution to come out as fast as possible if people like us continue to argue then Funcom wil end up taking months to solve the problems , because they could'nt decide what was right and what was wrong

I haven't the foggiest how AO is coded, but all the evidence availible to the public points to the fact the nanoformula properties are item specific and not hardcoded into the game mechanics. So it's prolly no more difficult that updating the appropriate item databases, same as when weapon stats get changed and updated.

[Letah]

New dot time will be 15s

so basically trader teamheals will be 0s/15s (asuming instacasts)

BUT FC is looking into the not stacking / half dot dmg because - dont kill the messager - they didnt knew it was "bugged".

So cease your "FFS I quit" and other shouts, wait for an offical statement

[_______________Vydas]

As a side question, what's the recharge time on use of First Aid stims?

[_____________Calenth]

I have yet to see an official response stating that it *will* be a fifteen second dot. That said, a fifteen second delay is functionally no better than a minute delay, because most fights are over in fifteen seconds. A fifteen second delay makes traders less effective healers than MA's and fixers.

I'm fine with them fixing trader bugs. Lord knows there are enough of them. I think almost every trader line has a significant bug or design flaw somewhere in it, it's just that the team heals were bugged positively instead of negatively.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Letah
New dot time will be 15s

so basically trader teamheals will be 0s/15s (asuming instacasts)

BUT FC is looking into the not stacking / half dot dmg because - dont kill the messager - they didnt knew it was "bugged".

So cease your "FFS I quit" and other shouts, wait for an offical statement

/me grabs his Vektor

You realize, of course, that would mean our top of the line team heal would:

1. Still have nearly double the nanocost of the top of the line Doctor Team Heal.
2. Still require we give up our HP, whether at half or full cost, to pay for the heal.
3. Then be used with the frequency similiar to nanos like Alpha & Omega or Izgimmer's Last Word (still laughing too hard to sit down and figure out the effects of nano init on all three).

True, if only our delayed health payments are prevented from being executed during the DoT we'll still be able to use other nanoformulas. But...what would be the point in using Delayed Health Payments?

I'm not shooting the messenger. Just clarifying the message.

Edit
Btw, who keeps delivering these messages to you instead of putting them in the Trader Forum where they might do some good?

[_______________Vydas]

I answered my own question here - the recycle of First Aid skill is 10 ticks on the ingame clock. So what we are talking is a heal that recycles at 1.5 times that skill.

[_____________Calenth]

Hah. So traders would then be the sixth best healers in the game, after doctors, adventurers, MA's, fixers, and anyone with first aid skill.

[Thyrra]

lol

[andriaaa]

<<natural boost? so what the oe change lengths the battles , but traders still heal more now faster and more what has changed to become more doc desirable? Traders still have all the stuff like roots and calm. I don't believe traders will be so nerfed as you described just think with a little maths then traders can probaly get around the OE problem. >>

At least at high levels, doctors will be more valuable because of complete heal and alpha and omega. Fights will now last long enough for docs to cast these nanos more than once.

Make the DoT do full damage, and make the DoT stack (maybe)..

How hard could that be?

To make the DoT do full damage, just multiply the damage by 2. Wow. How hard was that. As more making it stack, I can't really speculate on that without seeing FC's code.

The proposed solution makes trader team heals worthless, and as a MA, I know plenty about long recharge heals. I've had plenty of people (including myself) die on me while waiting for heals to recharge. The traders are already being hurt plenty by 14.2, so I think this will gimp them nearly beyond belief.

I also like the idea of switching the min heals on the heals so that the doctor has a better min heal and the trader's heal has a lower minimum..

[Greenhawk]

... the right fix is to adjust docs so their recycle time is improved. The wrong fix is to break out the nerf machine gun on Traders.

Dear Funcom,

Please stop changing your game to be more "broke-ass" instead of less.

Yours truly,

AO Player

[Letah]

Originally posted by Kuroshio

Btw, who keeps delivering these messages to you instead of putting them in the Trader Forum where they might do some good?

Hehe I got 2 friends who have direct contact to a FC person and they discussed your problem after my trader friend asked to

Oh and check your traderforum and look for posts of my friend, she stated there too. "Zyxlquith"

They are re-looking into the teamheals, hope that helps you.

[___________Zyxlquith]

thanks letah, but the official post in the trader forums is by Noer...

he got the same answer I did.

FC still doesnt' know what they're doing, definitively, wtih trader heals, but they won't be leaving them alone.

[xbmspec]

The arguements concerning Trader healing vs Doctor healings have mostly involved attempted straight comparisons of amount of HP healed. That ignores the cost to attain the ability to cast the nanos (both in credits/time/risk and in IP expenditure) and the additional price: that Traders have to pay for that healing out of their own HP.

Well, damn. I always forget that Doctors are Nanos Risk/IP/Cost Free.

[_______________Xikon]

Cosmik, can you please confirm if you will be without a doubt what so ever, nerfing the heals? I want to re-roll now and not waste my time with you guys trying to make a decision for 3 months and then finding out I have to re-roll.