Traders are BETTER at healing the DOCS! Fix! Bump

[__________Terranigma]

"Since when were traders able to solo so well? they certainly dont solo as well as any of the pet classes or as well as my enforcer. "

Bgumble my point is that the trader solo's better then the doctor , posts before has mentioned that traders solo'ed and earned loads of money through missions before they got their top wrangle. I'm not saying doctors can't but they take much mroe trouble doing so. I play enforcer and doctor

"Clue: They already are secondary healers. Better than Advents or MAs but worse than doctors - except maybe at very high levels when healing is barely an issue. "

IF they are secondary healers then why the fuc should they be better then adventurers and MA's and this whole thread has proven that traders ARE better healers than doctors even if it only remains at 90+ it's still a issue that needs to be solved

"So rather than address your problem you believe that making another class worse will somehow improve you? Odd reasoning. "

Well my point is that i've changed views i'm sure all of the people know that nerfing a problem is much faster then fixing the problem especially for funcom and the heals won't be boosted again anywayze if the heals of the docs become over powered then another set of balance issue will come. I am predicting that it takes more time to fix the dot then changing the usage of the traders heals.

If funcom changes the traders heal it'll make them back into the secondary healer that they are meant to be at higher levels not a cause that makes the doctors kicked out in higher levels, and plus ...and plus by changing the traders heal the adventurers and the Ma's and the MP's and doctors will feel more powered and complain less

but what if only the doctors were improved , not only does it generate another issue of problem w th doctors becoming the next super class. it doesn't solve any problems of the adventurers or the other secondary healing class.

"Hello? you must be aware of some exploit or secondary effect that has caused Trader heals to be changed. For your information the heals operate exactly as originally designed with the exception that the DoT component is now half its original level - which doesnt affect healing output at all, merely makes the heals less dangerous to use. Why shouldn't our heals be as powerful as they are? they are obviously at the level Funcom originally thought was correct. What has changed?"

Because funcom has never anticipated that these heals would be such a problem , it's probaly a design flaw I do not tihnk Funcom orginally thought it was correct that high level traders should be able to outheal doc's at higher levels.

I understand that the best way to fix the issue is to fix the dot , and make it stack but this will cause alot more programming and I can only see it is funcom's easy way out , further more funcom has more problems to deal with then this issue.

also boosting doctors will generate problems like tooo easy game play , or always looking for a doctor groups ,and will make every other secondary healing class feel jeolous then another issue will rise causing funcom to boost everyone. What an easy solution to just nerf the traders funcom thought .if you were in a position like that you'd certainly take the easy way out would you then address all the other problems out there

[Letah]

Hitting f1-f6 quickly in succession resets them. This can be done while I am casting/recharging from a heal. It is really only a minor irritant to me

Thats a low lv l problem and easy to solve yes, at 120+ you'll find screaming agents and nt's saying they are near death while they are at full to you, after spamming the function keys and aftering 't'-ing them, and not having lag. But this is said a lot of times.

Pomka, I didnt ask for such a major improvement, I asked for an improvement No way teamheals should be better then our single heals (as your example inclines)

solutions brought forward by docs:
- Recharge times
- making min-max healing skill dependable instead of min a lot
- slightly upping min heal (not to such a big extend as pomka says)
- nanocosts
- fix dot pvp dmg on traderheal (though I was kinda of against because its a nerf... i hate them too you know)
- Add a new better heal nano's (someone mentioned a 800-2000 heal)

All these and more (I'm sure I forgot a few) were requests to fix this. If you read all these pages you'll see us docs never asked for a nerf neither did the docs intepret my post as a cry for nerf, which is just; if you took time reading the post you'd have understood it was no nerf-cry.

Maybe the title was a bit 'daring' yes, but the only ones struggling with the subjectline are people who did not take time to read its actual content. You call such people "headline readers" and have no respect for those at all, nor will I keep those in mind when posting for 'tactics' and such.

I'm against this nerf too and I think that must be obvious by now, that most of us dont want a nerf.

[_____________Calenth]

Originally posted by Letah


Maybe the title was a bit 'daring' yes, but the only ones struggling with the subjectline are people who did not take time to read its actual content. You call such people "headline readers" and have no respect for those at all, nor will I keep those in mind when posting for 'tactics' and such.

While I know your heart is in the right place, letah, you have to realize -- probably half the people who've read this thread have read the headline and maybe one or two other posts at random. Most people are "headline readers," and while you may ignore them, funcom doesn't -- they just go by the total number of voices, because # voices = # accounts that want X, and it's all about the benjamins.

[_____________Chromad]

Originally posted by Calenth


While I know your heart is in the right place, letah, you have to realize -- probably half the people who've read this thread have read the headline and maybe one or two other posts at random. Most people are "headline readers," and while you may ignore them, funcom doesn't -- they just go by the total number of voices, because # voices = # accounts that want X, and it's all about the benjamins.

Should that be the case, not a single company involved in customer support process deserves its excistence, plain and simple.

[_________________bob]

Originally posted by Mercatura
Let me hand you a f*cking clue:

-- [Quote of Cosmik] This change will mean that Traders have to wait for the DOT to run its full duration (from execution to finish) before another team heal can be executed.

The dot lasts over a minute.

[...]

I'm not sure exactly who this was aimed at. Regardless I can only suggest that you calm down. You might not have noticed, but Cosmik posted again several posts after the one you quote above.

He says 'Erk, yes, I forgot to mention that I believe the DOT duration is being decreased. I'll confirm that and get back to you'

This is an important detail. Without knowing how much the DoT duration will be shortened it is difficult to evaluate the effect the change.

[_________________bob]

Originally posted by Letah


Thats a low lv l problem and easy to solve yes, at 120+ you'll find screaming agents and nt's saying they are near death while they are at full to you, after spamming the function keys and aftering 't'-ing them, and not having lag. But this is said a lot of times.

I really just meant that many of the problems discussed on the forums are blown out of all proportions. I just chose the examples I did because everyone here will have experience of them. It wasn't my intent to question the validity of the problem or get into specifics . Perhaps the health bars was a poor choice of an example.

solutions brought forward by docs:
[...]
- fix dot pvp dmg on traderheal (though I was kinda of against because its a nerf... i hate them too you know)

I find it difficult to understand why you view fixing a bug introduced in a previous patch to be a nerf.

All these and more (I'm sure I forgot a few) were requests to fix this. If you read all these pages you'll see us docs never asked for a nerf neither did the docs intepret my post as a cry for nerf, which is just; if you took time reading the post you'd have understood it was no nerf-cry.
[...]
I'm against this nerf too and I think that must be obvious by now, that most of us dont want a nerf.

I would just once like to see some one give a good reason why 'nerfs' are automatically bad.

Take this as an example:

One reason I would like the DoT's to do the damage they are supposed to (rather than half; I'm ignoring the DoT stacking question here) is for the simple reason that I want to feel like I have made a sacrifice when I use my team heal. For me Trader's are about sacrifice - sacrificing their own health or abilities for the team. It actually reduces my enjoyment of the profession to get the Team Heal basically 'for free'. I want to have to consider the advantages and disadvantages of the sacrifice.

In addition the no sacrifice team heal often makes the single heal health sacrifice negligible too. If I am not being attacked I can use 2-3 single heals followed by a team heal for a net loss of no health at all!

I don't know if anybody else feels this way, but as I said this does reduce my enjoyment of the profession. If the proposed change means there is a significant trade-off involved when using the Team Heal, then I may be all for it.

[_____________Abunari]

Originally posted by Cosmik
Just want to say that I've been keeping up to speed on this thread, and to also bring some news about Trader heals.

Currently when executing a team heal the Trader is hit with a DOT (hit with an amount of damage over time). This amount isn't all that much, and Traders can keep executing the team heals without their health getting dangerously low.

A change is going to be made to the Trader team heals. This change will mean that Traders have to wait for the DOT to run its full duration (from execution to finish) before another team heal can be executed. So, over time, a Doctor will heal for more (as should be the case). This change is scheduled for an upcoming patch soon (no, not 14.2).

Feedback? I know you've got it.

Why do you guys always have to nerf? This isn't the solution. Make doctor heals better. Why always make something worse?

Just because it is the easiest thing to do, doesn't mean it gives balance. Since you taking away crits, why not give doctors a bump in healing ability since fights will be lasting longer. Perhaps reduce the nano cost on doctor nanos!!!! That would make doctors better healers also.

The other problem is that there is no clear plan for what balance you guys are trying to bring to the professions. If there were some published article that said here is what the professions should be, at least relatvive to one another (and I'm NOT talking about the vague stuff that has been published, fixers don't even have beacon warp, how can they master grid travel when it is all one way). Publishing this would also go a long way to setting customer expectations.

Abunari, lvl 137 trader RK2 - (formerly retired until IP reset, now probably just going to max tradeskills and nano-programming while I level my uber MA)

[Julka_Pomy]

Make trader dot do full damge and thats all will not make them any wose healer.

It doesnt matter is it 250 or 104 still trader can chain heal and
outheal all domege done to him by dot. If run out of nano pool sit recharge and continue. In fast team i always see trader taking damge and healing quet a lot.

Improving DOCs heals will just bring MORE inbalance to pvp, becasue only way to improve doctor heals is to make them heal better and up minimum heal. Doctor still die becasue recharge time and tendency to heal for minumu. That how soldiers enforser can kill doctor.

If we make heals even 800-1200 its till be most heals for 1k.

On second thought i like the idea made by funcom all we need is just to get used to it. That trader can heal only every 30 seconds but still doubt trader will have problems in team becasue of calms just like NTs became suddenly needed in team missions.

Making trader heal every 30 seconds will just put them as secondary healer not uselss and weak class they still can heal themselfs with health pluder (or how its caled)
And heal team mebers with their personal heals.

[_________________bob]

Originally posted by Abunari

Just because it is the easiest thing to do, doesn't mean it gives balance. Since you taking away crits, why not give doctors a bump in healing ability since fights will be lasting longer. Perhaps reduce the nano cost on doctor nanos!!!! That would make doctors better healers also.

I suspect that the opposite may be the case. A reduction in crits means more healing isn't necessary. Less damage per period of time and longer fight time means more opportunity to heal, more opportunity to recharge, more opportunity to escape a difficult battle, and less need to spam heal.

I assume you are referring just to PvP. In case you aren't:
Healing is very powerful in this game. Having a healer in the team makes a huge difference to the level of mobs you can fight.
I don't see any reason why healing in general should be improved. That is one reason among others I can see why the best solution for the problem raised in this thread is a reduction of healing capability of one of the non-doctor healing professions.

The point is, doctors don't need to be made better healers in general, only (perhaps) in relation to other healers.

[Muetdhiver]

"The point is, doctors don't need to be made better healers in general, only (perhaps) in relation to other healers."

How a class may need to be more powerful in relation to another is beyond me. How is that helping you play ? What does that give docs in the end ?

[sillytheclown]

Nerfing is the one of the reasons i am quiting this game, instead of fixing they are breaking more, I have a 112 doc, and this nerf that traders are getting is uterly stupid. This nerf doesn't help anyone, it is putting players at odds. Instead of making the community stronger, this weakens it more. Community is what this should be about, not nerfing. look at the comments on this forum about the other professions. Docs in the most part don't want this nerfed, I know i have had to ask other healers to help keep people alive when doing missions. I have no quelms of other classes helping heal. Docs should have the best heal, as traders should have the best tradeskills.

This isn't the case in either case. Many classes can do tradeskills as well as traders, and well as per this discussion docs arn't the best healers.

to be equal in healing we need to get mochems, infuses, masteries. other classes can get these also. so if your including this in the heal issue please don't. use only self buffs.

who cares who is better in PvP, this game isn't a PvP game, cause the story sucks. Funcom should be fixing things, not nerfing, breaking what works.

Please don't nerf the trader heals, that would be a shame and a disservice to traders. Fix things, make docs heals what they should be. give docs an agro dehancer, and give traders the nano lines fixed. Funcom your failing at your mission of making a good game.

If you read the forums there isn't many good things being said about the state of things in the game. Your pissing off the client base, while you try and woo in more people to play, hoping they don't leave ASAP.

Soon SWG will be out, and migrating will happen, the new kid on the block will steal people like DAoC did. and well DAoC sucks.

You have a time before SWG comes out, and you had better get it right before then, because AO won't be the only Future game.

The expansion you are working on is a good step, but if it cost money, then you might as well toss it out the window. why should i pay for something that you should have did in the origanal game.

SYB

QUITTER

[_________________bob]

Originally posted by Muetdhiver
"The point is, doctors don't need to be made better healers in general, only (perhaps) in relation to other healers."

How a class may need to be more powerful in relation to another is beyond me. How is that helping you play ? What does that give docs in the end ?

That is a hard question to answer concisely, but I will give it a shot. Firstly to clarify something, the (perhaps) I had qualifying my statement above was meant to indicate that the statement is a subject of debate in the thread.

Secondly, much of your answer can be found in my previous posts.

But to try and summarise:

• How we determine how powerful a profession is, or whether it needs to be fixed, is often based upon a comparison with another profession.
  
• As I understand it, this thread is about docs wanting to be the best healers, not necessarily better healers. Much of the discussion has come from the angle of 'Trader's outheal docs' rather than 'I can't even heal myself enough to keep me alive for 5 seconds against a green mob!'
  
• To make the docs the best healers (assuming, because this is also the subject of debate, that they are not already) there are two choices. Improve doctor's healing abiilties, or reduce the other profession's healing abilities. The other profession being the one that causes people to say that doctors are not the best healers. In this case Traders via the use of their team heal.
  
• In the opinion of many, healing (regardless of which profession does it) is already very good. As I said, the difficulty of mobs you can tackle with a healer is vastly different to those you can tackle without. Not to mention when there is more than one healer in the group. For this reason it may be a bad idea to increase the overall amount teams can heal themselves by, regardless of who does it.
  
• If you boost healing in the game, it may necessitate a boost to the mobs to compensate. If you only boost doctor's healing, and then boost the mobs (hp or ac or whatever), then relatively speaking, all the other professions have been 'nerfed', as they are no longer as effective at fighting the mobs without the aid of a doctor
  
• This leaves only the second choice, which is to reduce the healing capability of, in this case, the trader.
  
• I won't bother speculating on whether this reasoning is even close to that FC has used to arrive at their proposed change.
  
• The enjoyment in being able to choose and play different professions is just that. They are different. People choose different professions for a reason. I assume people generally choose being a doctor because they like to heal people. So it makes sense that they want to be the best at it relative to the other professions. If they weren't, they would choose that other profession instead. You can ony be best at something relative to something else. If healing is useful it does not matter particularly whether you heal for 10-20 or 12-22. What matters is that you chose your profession so you would be the best at healing, but it turns out that some other profession is.
  
• This is why docs need to be more powerful than traders in the healing department at all levels (again because a lot of the debate in this thread depends upon which level is being discussed). What docs, or the people that play docs, get out of this is the feeling that they are the best healing profession in the game, which is why they chose to play doctors in the first place.
  
• Out of interest, I know several totally non-combat docs that do not deal damage and only heal, but I do not know personally any non-combat Traders (possible I suppose), Adventurers(!) or MA's(!!). This indicates on what their players wish to focus.

I hope that helps.

[____________Greystar]

Originally posted by Cosmik
A change is going to be made to the Trader team heals. This change will mean that Traders have to wait for the DOT to run its full duration (from execution to finish) before another team heal can be executed. So, over time, a Doctor will heal for more (as should be the case). This change is scheduled for an upcoming patch soon (no, not 14.2).

Feedback? I know you've got it.

Rofl, that is pretty much as good thought out as the cool cluster bullets for fixers.

Well, what do you expect, ask FC for a boost for Docs and you get another useless profession instead haha.

[Muetdhiver]

Nice point, good job summing it up because I was not so hot about rereading the whole thread

Problem here is about being the best ... not mentionning that most people see this game more as cooperative than competitive, I can understand that docs want to be the best at saving lives.

With their actual Single Target Heals, Max HP Buffs and Mob attack potential debuffs, Docs are already by far the best class at keeping people alive, even though their team heal is a little behind Trader's TH.

Hell, if that's such an issue, give Docs the same TH than traders without the DoT.

But I still don't see how making traders more useless (with alot of their cheese going out the windows in 14.2 anyway) will help.

(Edited for tags)

[Letah]

roftl

"Give fixers some love, nerf ma's!"

[_________________bob]

Muetdhiver, you might be interested in reading a post I made regarding 'being the best' earlier in this thread (my overall point is similar to yours I think).

You can read it here.

[__________Terranigma]

Bob you're a great writer you have sumed up all which I think is right from a much better explaination

What i'm trying to tell people is dat nerfs are actually fixes which seem to be implied as another view as if weakening a class people think nerfs are bad because it removes a portion of their abilities , but they do not reliase if the problem was solved in reverse it'll only be worse and generate more problems.


if you raise the docs skill docs will become better healers but traders are still superb healers and the other healing proffesions will still see traders as the super class > better healers, plus now they will see that the doc proffesion is overpowered and it'll lead to many other problems like too good healing and so on

if you nerf the traders then docs will become best at healing and the trader will go back to secondary healing which they are meant to be in current traders will feel this as a stupid nerf because they are losing a ability which they shouldn't have in the first place. They do not realise this is actually a fix to the games balance Funcom is already nice to leave the heal line to traders with all the other stuffs they've got already like calm , root and super shotgun.

even if the damage was completed to full damage it might not be usefull because the traders can still chaincast. I cna only see Funcom's solution to be well planned and thought out and most of all they planned it to be the easiest solution : (

[_______________Vydas]

Uhm, if you change Trader heals and do not touch Doc heals, Docs become nothing. They stay the same. Traders do become worse, though, I grant you that.

Nerfing is destructive problem solving. It is not any more balancing than constructive problem solving. Also, nerfing never stops.

After this, some other unanticipated imbalance will emerge, sure as shooting, guaranteed.

It's all a matter of approach - some prefer to break the functional, others prefer to fix the broken.

[Val]

As stated in another thread if this nerf happens I know myself and at least 5 friends will be gone, and I would be willing to bet that MOST of the other traders that have built thier high lvl traders to be total support to a team will more than likely quit too you might as well just take money and burn it you fools. I have invested too much time in this character to have her nerfed to totally useless along with most of her other nano lines, no team will want a trader after this so i will have no reason to play her anymore, and why bother switching to another class and wasting my time there cus you'll prolly be along to that one with the nerf bat too so screw this game if this nerf goes thru.





Increase the doc heals fools and leave us alone we are the only balanced class there is, so go screw!!!

[__________Terranigma]

jee go ahead and leave then if you are just going to leave because no need to tell us. You are leaving just bercause you're healing out of all the other things you can do is changed a bit. I don't even care if players like you leave. You people will just make more trouble to the people who truly wants balance. I don't like people who only care about their own proffesion newayze.