Traders are BETTER at healing the DOCS! Fix! Bump

[aaronb]

Originally posted by Calenth


Now that this is done, maybe you can get to the less-important things like fixing the bug in the visual display of health, you know, the bug that most seriously hurts the ability of all healers period. But silly things like helping everyone should, I guess, be lower priority. Not nearly as many people seem to want those things, after all.

I'd like to see this fixed. I've wanted to see this fixed for months. This seems like something urgent enough to warrant an emergency patch as my friends and I have repeatedly petitioned about. Do whatever the hell you want to my profession, but fix this please.

[_____________Calenth]

Originally posted by aaronb


I'm impressed that out of all the possible adjustments, you were able to find one that not only reduces our value to a team but also destroys our ability to solo effectively. Thanks.

If they fixed divest/plunder vs. NPCs, and upgraded the health drain line so that it scales in proportion at higher levels & is still useful past level 30, you'd still be able to solo effectively, using that for healing instead.

But that would involve fixing something. Heavens forfend.


(Yes, I'm a bit cynical right now. Sorry. I just spent the last 3 hours doing a (I found out now, broken) static quest, too.)

[aaronb]

Originally posted by Calenth


(Yes, I'm a bit cynical right now. Sorry. I just spent the last 3 hours doing a (I found out now, broken) static quest, too.)

I'm with ya (on the cynical bit)

[_____________Calenth]

On the bright side, my copy of Morrowind should get here tomorrow. Maybe by the time I've finished it, a few more things will be working. . .bleh. Anyway.

Oh well. Whatever else, at least ithis game isn't as forked as ultima online.

[garpenlov]

Originally posted by Cosmik
Just want to say that I've been keeping up to speed on this thread, and to also bring some news about Trader heals.

Currently when executing a team heal the Trader is hit with a DOT (hit with an amount of damage over time). This amount isn't all that much, and Traders can keep executing the team heals without their health getting dangerously low.

A change is going to be made to the Trader team heals. This change will mean that Traders have to wait for the DOT to run its full duration (from execution to finish) before another team heal can be executed. So, over time, a Doctor will heal for more (as should be the case). This change is scheduled for an upcoming patch soon (no, not 14.2).

Feedback? I know you've got it.

Seems like a solution that will piss off as many players as possible. Was that intentional or just a coincidence?

[Cosmik]

Hey, I'm not saying this is the be all and end all. This is only one change that's being done so the DOT has more of an effect (as it should have) and in part, to give some edge back to Doctors in the healing-over-time department. I know there are still concerns over the healing capabilities of the Doctor (which I'm investigating), but this change will help Doctors in the healing department when comparing themselves to Traders, without altering the role of the Trader in groups.

[______________Demios]

Cosmik your solution sounds a bit overboard, unless i misunderstood completely.

Trader DoT currently lasts 30s or so. Making this change will mean the high lvl traders go from 900-1200/4s to 900-1200/30s.

That would totally destroy the healing capabilities of the traders.

If you reduce the DoT to a like DD effect ok. 800 DD and 900-1200 heal will make traders able to heal teammates but not themselves.

That is what i would suggest to FC, since trader team heals was never supposed to be used for self heal.

But if this is made the "take health from target" line of nano's must be reevaluated so as not to ruin traders solo capabilities.

Just my view from playing an agent in mimic trader.

Regards

Demi

[Letah]

Cosmik, as you could see at pot no #1 I pleaded not to nerf traders but make OUR (team)heals better. I did that on purpose because the trader got enough broken nano's and they really need this healing. Making the dots stack or do 100% dmg would've been just "okay" but this looks like a bigger "nerf". Isn't it possible to up doc min healing or remove the random min-max heal to a skill like guns? With BM/MM counting as AR? This way a skilled doctor would heal much more for max heal then one who needs to cast expertise and int buff to use it.

I hope you'll let the boys of funcom look at this matter real well because traders do need their current heals, also for solo capabiltiy because from what I heard their single heals are useless.

[aaronb]

Originally posted by Cosmik
Hey, I'm not saying this is the be all and end all. This is only one change that's being done so the DOT has more of an effect (as it should have) and in part, to give some edge back to Doctors in the healing-over-time department. I know there are still concerns over the healing capabilities of the Doctor (which I'm investigating), but this change will help Doctors in the healing department when comparing themselves to Traders, without altering the role of the Trader in groups.

Cosmik, this very much alters the role of the Trader in teamplay. Let me share my perspective on the role of a trader in a team:

The most important attribute for a trader to have is situational awareness. My responsibility to a team is not damage output, not healing, and not crowd control. My responsibility is keeping track of what is going on around us and doing whichever of those is appropriate at the given moment. In an ideal team, I'm in a backup role for all of those things.

We are not the best healers, though yes we can outheal a doctor when we are on the top of the divest/plunder ladder.

We are not the best damage "doers", though yes we can outdamage almost any other profession when we are on the top of the divest/plunder ladder.

We are not the best at crowd control, though yes we can do pretty damn well, especially when our skills are boosted on the top of the divest/plunder ladder.

Maintaining divest/plunder is not a small task.

This change is eliminating our ability to act as healers in our team. Period. If you see necessity in reducing our healing power, then reduce our heal amounts a bit. Please don't remove our capability to heal our team when we need to.

I built my trader to be an effective team player, not to be "uber" in PvP duels as seems to be the current fad. You are removing a primary component of why I built him.

[aaronb]

Originally posted by Letah
Cosmik, as you could see at pot no #1 I pleaded not to nerf traders but make OUR (team)heals better. I did that on purpose because the trader got enough broken nano's and they really need this healing. Making the dots stack or do 100% dmg would've been just "okay" but this looks like a bigger "nerf". Isn't it possible to up doc min healing or remove the random min-max heal to a skill like guns? With BM/MM counting as AR? This way a skilled doctor would heal much more for max heal then one who needs to cast expertise and int buff to use it.

I hope you'll let the boys of funcom look at this matter real well because traders do need their current heals, also for solo capabiltiy because from what I heard their single heals are useless.

I saw this -- thank you, Letah.

[___________Zeroshift]

Originally posted by Cosmik



Is this in reply to my post?

Accually cosmik, I have to argee with him..

Making the DoT's stack would be a much better option than what you proposed.

What you said has destroyed the traders healing ability point blank. Making the DoT's stack, and even increasing the DoT would be a much better solution.

This would allow the trader to heal constantly like a doc, but they won't be able to do it nearly as long as a doc before the DoT's start eating them alive.




....but...




Let me play devil's advocate here...

Should the trader even be considered a healing class that can replace a doc?
What is to say the trader shouldn't be nothing but a support healer like the MA?
The trader already has so much going for them that it's possible they are simply too overpowered being able to heal like that.

[aaronb]

Originally posted by Zeroshift

What is to say the trader shouldn't be nothing but a support healer like the MA?

I'm okay with this (i.e. reducing our heal amounts). Locking our heal capability until the DoT expires doesn't serve this function -- it makes our team heal a one-time hit during a fight, which means I'll avoid using it unless it's an emergency. And pray it doesn't happen when I'm in recharge on my divest or plunder.

[_____________Calenth]

I generally think of my trader as a "logistical support" character. With the trader there, everyone does their job a little better, and he can play "backup" to any other role, as long as he has something to work with.

If someone else is healing my trader, he can do a lot of healing -- he amplifies the power of the party's other healers, but he needs those other healers to watch his back, cause his heals do damage.

The trader can do crowd control, but not as well as a bureacrat -- it takes a better team for the trader's single-target mezzes to be enough to work with. A 'crat can do crowd control for even middlingly skilled teams, what with his charm and so forth; a trader can't, the team has to be able to live long enough for the trader to single-target mezz each opponent, and be smart and focus attacks, etc.

The trader can do damage-dealing and nuking, to an extent -- our shotguns are like a poor man's nanotech, in a way, for high end damage dealing. But they're slow and highly erratic and can't be relied on as a primary nuker.

So on, so forth. I view my trader as a support for the support classes; the logistical arm of tactical combat, as it were.


anyway, my views on this change have been expressed above. Many times.

---------

in answer to your question, zeroshift, the trader really doesn't have all that much going for him, when you factor in 14.2 .

We have crowd control, but not as good as a 'crat. We have good damage, but it's erratic and unreliable. We have skill drains, but they don't debuff NPCs. We have a lot of very broken nano lines (ac drain, nano drain) that most people forget about completely. Without healing, traders don't have a single nano line that isn't either bugged or useless or both. Not one single nano line!

The only thing the trader has going for it is that it's a very good class in PvP. If you look at PvM, which is 90% of the game for 90% of the players, the traders really aren't THAT hot. Heck, any one of the pet classes can solo long after the trader can; agents and MA's are going to have crit hits out the wazoo, and will surpass the trader by far in damage dealing.

That said, no, a trader shouldn't be a healing class that can 'replace" a doc. But a trader, working with another healer in the party, should be able to function in the place of a doc. Which isn't quite the same thing. My station wagon gets me where i need to go -- it's functional -- but it's no lexus.

[____________Schnulle]

NO!

This is the by far the most horrbile Fix you could have done. Double the DoT but dont change anything else!

[Snee]

130 Trader ... Gonna use 14.2 to become a Tank/Puller. Guess this is what the intention with Traders were, eh Cosmik ?!

And the Team Display health/nano bug is being fixed prior to this release ? Seems everyone that is not on your firends list will drop to half health if she/he gets out of range. Fun way to waist a 30 sec team heal.

With the 14.2 crit changes in mind this "fix" will change gameplay seriously. For the better ?! I'm not so sure, but I haven't given it much thought.

Btw. Stacking DOT's on Traders could be a good idea, but will get me killed quite often. Tried zoning to BS with a DOT on ur ass, cause first room got a little more chaotic than intended ?? Even a 49 DOT have killed me that way. Wonder what a 300 DOT on my ass will do ...

[Syrniko]

Hello,

I do play trader too now (Im not that high lvl but I think I can abit talk about too). Trader are good bec. he can "also" heal the Team.

Cosmik: If you make changes on the recharge time of the team heal so long how the DoT runs, you would destroy so badly your way of the "team part" for the Trader class. Fc did chages bec. of upping teaming (like multible level missions, better loot in team missions, working team mission booths).
Trader will not be anymore the backup heal members in a team and he will just be a good dmg dealer. But there do all the same dmg so why dont invite then an Enforcer instead of a Trader ? The heal nanos will be so damn nerfd that we dont want to click on the shortcut icon to execute it. I know that Doc's get bored, if they see a Trader where outheal at LOWER levels all other. We need to drain 1st to execute the "upper" heals at this level (I speak of lvl 100 or so) and we need to keep it up. I would do make changes by the Doc heals and not by the other ones ! Docs are suppost to heal more over time and they need it now. Dont do changes on other proffesions pls that would not help a Doc btw. .
Increase the min healing and up the max healing by the Doc, add maybe more Team heal nanos by the Doc but dont "nerf" (huh now pls no comment about this from other here ok?) a proffession. You guys need to balance the game and not to add your "fixes". Its just my comment to this. I really would appreciate if there following not so stupid answers like "oh boy you got this and you got that and you are so powerfull proffesion and you can this and you can that ... ".
Trader are atm a well balanced profession (yes we have buggd nanos too OMG !). Leave em so and do changes by the Docs and dont lower or "fix" anything from the Trader.

--Tib

PS: sorry for the bad spelling sometimes ;P

[____________Asteroth]

Originally posted by Cosmik
Hey, I'm not saying this is the be all and end all. This is only one change that's being done so the DOT has more of an effect (as it should have) and in part, to give some edge back to Doctors in the healing-over-time department. I know there are still concerns over the healing capabilities of the Doctor (which I'm investigating), but this change will help Doctors in the healing department when comparing themselves to Traders, without altering the role of the Trader in groups.

OOooh an OFFICIAL response


Cosmik

How abt fixing the other Trader NFs as well.


1) Draw/Siphon AC DOES NOT lower mobs AC, only add to player, which is only half of wat is promised in the NF description.

2) Divest/Plunder DOES NOT lower mobs ability, only add to player, which is again only half of wat is promised in the NF description.


Half is a nice word isnit.

[Mercatura]

You've got to be kidding me.

I hold the nerf monger docs half-reponsible for this crap. You don't hand a retarded kid a firecracker and a bic lighter, because you know he is going to do the worst possible thing with it. You don't rant and rave to FC about X being too powerful or whatever whine-of-the-week there is and expect them to come up with a decent change. Good god, look at their track record of game mechanics changes.

I'll trade nanos with you nerf mongers now. I hope you're friggin happy, trying to make us worse than fixers, Jesus H Christ. You can have that WONDERFUL 1k team heal, not only does it put a dot on you (which will go back to full damage, I'm sure) you can hardly ever use it.

And you thought A&O was useless.

Dunno what teams FC devs play in, but in real teams, doc or trader, you can't spam the heal fast enough.

[Destria]

D'oh... on behalf of all non-nerf crying Doctors, I apologise for what the actions of a few loud individuals has resulted in

[gnuman]

Cosmik, thank you for ruining just another complete line of nanos for traders. Add that to the other 80% of our nano useless/bugged.

How about you fixed the damage on those dots first and removed the stepping with drains. That would remove the lvl 100 traders casting premium heals. WOW fixed? How hard was that?

This makes me furious. Over a minute recharge and taking 1k damage from the heal? Hey, why not make it root us aswell while dotted? Yes, I am furious - that you listen to whiner-threads like this without investigating further into this and just hit us with a big nerf-bat. I have offered my service SEVERAL times to help with balancing out traders. So your way of balancing is by removing our nano-lines one by one?

Team-heals out, watch the whine-threads about our drains next.