Traders are BETTER at healing the DOCS! Fix! Bump

[____________Kikamiro]

Letah, you misread my post as well.

I wasn't going against you. I was agreeing with you. And I'm not a trader and not defending them. I was stating that any time you bring up traders in the forum you will be met with huge opposition. The twink comment was referring to most of the long-time players have lower-lvl traders on the side they are building up for pvp and the like, which is why so many people blatantly oppose your facts even tho they are very valid.

[____________Kikamiro]

People keep refering to 14.2 as making traders less powerful.

I agree it will be nice to see less shotguns on all classes, not singling out traders. The fact is with debuffs traders can still get way higher AMS than anyone else which = more crits. And as far as pvp goes, unfortunately 14.2 will make traders -stronger- as a single debuff will be much more deadly to the target.

As I said before. I don't -want- to see traders nefred. Just at the pace funcom "fixes" the other profs things would be about 2 years faster to weaken them slightly for the time being. Or even better, leave traders alone as they are and MAKE NANO RESIST WORK PROPERLY. So if you have a 600 NR that plunder or ransack wont stick 75% of the time. That would be a much nicer way of doing it and it would help the melee classes deal with roots a bit better as well.

[Letah]

Originally posted by Whaambulance
Letah, you misread my post as well.

I wasn't going against you. I was agreeing with you. And I'm not a trader and not defending them. I was stating that any time you bring up traders in the forum you will be met with huge opposition. The twink comment was referring to most of the long-time players have lower-lvl traders on the side they are building up for pvp and the like, which is why so many people blatantly oppose your facts even tho they are very valid.

Aw ok, sorry then i misread too

I'm always a bit edgy about people calling my thread a flame while its an outcry to FC to get better teamheals

[_____________Calenth]

Nanoresist works, it just works as well as evade and so forth, i.e., it doesn't.

AS to crit chances, wait and see. It's not just the overequipping changes, it's the reduction in power of the low light targeting scope and the change of the crit buffs to self-only. There's a lot more in 14.2 than just the OE change. It may be that traders with shotguns will still be overpowered after 14.2, but frankly I doubt it, I think things are going to be in line.

As to nanoresist . . .I'd be all for strengthening it, if they improved dodge, duck, evade etc. as well, all of them drastically. Remember, traders' offensive skills advance at 4, not at 5 like other classes. They need the drains to function on par. if at least one of the drains doesn't land (and one of them is fairly resistable, with a 190% NR check), traders are a gimp compared to whomever they're fighting; and draining takes time, in which an oppent can alpha the trader, hop in a car and run away, or whatever.

Personally, I always think that half-assed "solutions" (like gimping traders) always cause more problems than they solve in the long run. (the 50% damage in PvP that you point to is a good example of that; as is the drastic increase in high level monster hp that necessitated it, and so forth down the line.) It's better for them to do the right thing once than the half-right thing ten times.

[Kuro]

First, a couple common misconceptions:

1. Trader divest/plunder skills raise the attack skills of the caster. AMS has its own modifiers. For proof, look at some of the items/nanos in AO. Enforcer Challenger line nanos affect AMS independantly of the weapon skills.
2. Trader divest/plunder skills raise the attack skills of the caster. Critical chance has its own modifiers. For proof, look at the arguements over some of the items/nanos getting changed in AO. Can we say "LLTS" or "UVC"?
3. Trader healing and doctor healing can never be placed in a side by side comparison without the opinion of the person making the comparison influencing it. There are too many unequal variables like ip costs to raise the skills required, the amount of skill required, nano cost, trader ability to ransack/deprive, and such to prevent a straight quantative comparison without opinion modifying the results. For proof, look at the opinions over the value of Alpha & Omega. Or the arguements presented with qualifying statements, like "If the trader uses these implants..."

That being said, I honestly think this entire discussion focuses on the minutia and ignores the meat: Doctors need an enhancement to stand out more from other professions with healing abilities. Yes, I play a trader and can heal. In my opinion, I cannot heal as well as a doctor without sacrifices that I'm not always willing to make (and I'm not just talking about health). But as Whaambulance pointed out so objectively, as a trader I have a fairly well fleshed out cache of skills to offer. And that's what I'd rather see improved about the doctor profession.

I mean if all the doctors in this thread want to do is heal, I'll not argue with them (except against using biased or flawed arguements that inevitably bring the "Nerf the traders" nitwits). But I like healing as a trader about as much as I like going down a barbed wire slide into a pool of rubbing alcohol. Healing is an ability shared among more than one profession. Personally, I'd look for abilities that were not shared among other professions for improvement or implementation to get back into the fight.

[_____________Calenth]

Originally posted by Kuroshio
That being said, I honestly think this entire discussion focuses on the minutia and ignores the meat: Doctors need an enhancement to stand out more from other professions with healing abilities. Yes, I play a trader and can heal. In my opinion, I cannot heal as well as a doctor without sacrifices that I'm not always willing to make (and I'm not just talking about health). But as Whaambulance pointed out so objectively, as a trader I have a fairly well fleshed out cache of skills to offer. And that's what I'd rather see improved about the doctor profession.

I mean if all the doctors in this thread want to do is heal, I'll not argue with them (except against using biased or flawed arguements that inevitably bring the "Nerf the traders" nitwits). But I like healing as a trader about as much as I like going down a barbed wire slide into a pool of rubbing alcohol. Healing is an ability shared among more than one profession. Personally, I'd look for abilities that were not shared among other professions for improvement or implementation to get back into the fight.

I agree with this post. I really don't want my trader to be a cheap doctor clone. Improve doctor's healing by all means, and give them other abilities that parties will want as well (perhaps by making epsilon purge a more valid nanoprogram for general use, by improving doctor's buffing capability, etc.) If traders are the best debuffers, maybe doctors should have some good team buffs to compensate, ones with very low NCU costs so they'll get used in parties. Maybe some doctor only weapons like tranquilizer pistols (with a short term mesmerize effect, say) or whatever that would make the class more versatile in combat. So on, so forth.

The real problem seems to be that healing as such in this game is fairly easy to come by, so there's little ultimate need for doctors. Give them other things that parties need, and enhance those things they do have to a more significant degree, so they get noticed.

[Sheffy]

*sigh* Bump.

--Tsk

[_________________bob]

Originally posted by ryack

You know it's actually funny that each time a doctor makes a post on this thread you come with a post like above. But when a trader once again comes with the same arguments, which have indeed already been discussed in a lot of posts in this thread, then you remain silent.

I apologise if my post upset you. On a rereading of your post it appears I may have read slightly more into it than you actually said. If that is the case, then I apologise for that too.

As far as I am aware, I have only made 2 of the type of post you refer to, including the one to which you replied. Of course I am biased, but I don't think that qualifies as an 'each time a doctor makes a post [...]'

Also, I might point out that this is how the first post I replied to started out - 'You traders are one hell of a arrogant people [...]'
Regardless of which 'side' such a poster is on, I am tempted to reply to those types of posts.

Why did I choose to reply to your post and not several others? Perhaps because yours started 'What is it with you people [...]'.
Other than that a random choice I guess. You are right, there are others I could have responded to yet I picked yours. I apologise. I do not have time to be totally fair and respond to everyone.

Please if a simple ql based comparison is not enough, explain to us what it's really like. Because frankly i don't buy what has been stated by traders so far. Not when i can see what it's really like in teams with traders.

My original point was, that if you read the previous posts, you will see that many do not agree a simple ql comparison is an adequate basis for concluding 'Trader's can heal for more hp's and quicker than docs'. That does not mean I or they necessarily disagree with your statement. If you think a simple ql comparison is adequate, I would be interested to know why you disregard the reasons previous posters give for why they believe it is not.

I believe it is not adequate because it does not provide enough material from which to devise possible solutions for making doctors the very best healers. For instance, for lack of any good reason why not that I have seen (though I admit I am not widely read in these forums), I would like to see the DoT's on the Trader Team Heals stack. This improves the Doctor's status as masters of healing. This possibility is unlikely to present itself just by looking at a comparison of healing amounts by quality between the professions.

If you do not buy what has been stated by Traders, I am asking that you state your reasons why. If someone does not know why you disagree with their view on things, it is unlikely they will change it or come to understand the issue better.

[Destria]

I think the fact that we're even having this debate should be proof enough. Doctors should be the undisputed masters of healing, given their shortcomings in other areas. If we're not... why not?

[___________Zeroshift]

*Throws some oil into the blaze and fans the flames*

[_____________Calenth]

Originally posted by bob

I believe it is not adequate because it does not provide enough material from which to devise possible solutions for making doctors the very best healers. For instance, for lack of any good reason why not that I have seen (though I admit I am not widely read in these forums), I would like to see the DoT's on the Trader Team Heals stack. This improves the Doctor's status as masters of healing. This possibility is unlikely to present itself just by looking at a comparison of healing amounts by quality between the professions. .

I also think this might be a good idea. But I think the real thing doctors need is a few more combat options besides healing (the mesmerize-effect "tranquilizer" doc only pistol I suggested earlier, for exampe.)

[ryack]

Originally posted by bob
Also, I might point out that this is how the first post I replied to started out - 'You traders are one hell of a arrogant people [...]'
Regardless of which 'side' such a poster is on, I am tempted to reply to those types of posts.

Not all doctors start out like that, but after reading a lot of the responses from traders to this thread i can see why some of them do. If they are right or not that's another matter.

My original point was, that if you read the previous posts, you will see that many do not agree a simple ql comparison is an adequate basis for concluding 'Trader's can heal for more hp's and quicker than docs'. That does not mean I or they necessarily disagree with your statement. If you think a simple ql comparison is adequate, I would be interested to know why you disregard the reasons previous posters give for why they believe it is not.

Most of the people that do not agree with a simple ql comparison are traders. There is a bit of bias there. If you then read their reasons why, you see that a lot of the restrictions the traders are under to use those ql nanos are also on the doc in almost the same form. The restrictions the docs are under are disregarded and the ones the traders are under are overstressed.
Why should one be taken in to account and the other not?

I believe it is not adequate because it does not provide enough material from which to devise possible solutions for making doctors the very best healers. For instance, for lack of any good reason why not that I have seen (though I admit I am not widely read in these forums), I would like to see the DoT's on the Trader Team Heals stack. This improves the Doctor's status as masters of healing. This possibility is unlikely to present itself just by looking at a comparison of healing amounts by quality between the professions.

By itself hurting traders (or any other class) to make doctors better is not a good thing. I would rather see the doctors get a boost then another profession put down. Though there may be some on this board that would love to see traders toned down, i and a lot of doctors on this thread are not asking for that.

If you do not buy what has been stated by Traders, I am asking that you state your reasons why. If someone does not know why you disagree with their view on things, it is unlikely they will change it or come to understand the issue better.

This is a very simple one. I have teamed with traders, i have seen what they can do. A number of traders on this thread try to make it appear as they were not this very good class that can do a lot of things. That is the conclusion i draw after seeing some of them in action. It could be that i have only met very good players using their trader char to it's full potential and that it has clouded my judgement. But i really doubt that that is the case.


Bob, i must admit that when i read your response to my post. I took it as another trader -> doc -> nerf response. And might have reacted a little agitated by that. In doing so i only furthered the trader vs doc part of this thread. My apologies for that and for any language in my post i should not have used.

I do not want traders nerfed in any way. I really could care less about traders. What i would like though is as a doctor to be the best healing profession there is. Traders are being used to measure docs against and sadly enough we fall short in some departments. One of them being healing.

[Destria]

Whether Traders all utilise the potential or not isn't really the issue. They have the potential, and Doctors do not. I want that potential so I can strive to utilise it

[_____________Calenth]

If this wasn't meant as a bash traders post, but as an improve docs post, maybe it shouldn't have whined about traders being more powerful in the topic line. That's kinda gonna put traders on the defensive.

[Letah]

Originally posted by Calenth
If this wasn't meant as a bash traders post, but as an improve docs post, maybe it shouldn't have whined about traders being more powerful in the topic line. That's kinda gonna put traders on the defensive.

no, thats to the person itself, I find it pretty sad that they do not want to read it normally without feeling attacked, if they take the time to read post no #1 seriously then there was nothing to bash, because that post clearly stated I want docs be better at healing and I dont want to nerf traders.

When i post something I expected people to use it in an adult fashionably way, no way im going to think of "mind the flamers that may get aggrod". Their bad, I dont have any message to those flame posts, neither will FC.

[_____________Calenth]

Originally posted by Letah

Their bad, I dont have any message to those flame posts, neither will FC.

Your faith in Funcom is, um, heartwarming. :P

[_________________bob]

Originally posted by ryack

By itself hurting traders (or any other class) to make doctors better is not a good thing. I would rather see the doctors get a boost then another profession put down. Though there may be some on this board that would love to see traders toned down, i and a lot of doctors on this thread are not asking for that.
[...]
I do not want traders nerfed in any way. I really could care less about traders.

I agree that hurting Traders as a quick fix for the Doctors profession is a bad idea (and btw I also agree with your other points about bias.)

I do however think;
- for Doctors to be the best healers, you cannot ignore other healing professions, since it is they that determine whether Doctors are best
- 'nerf's' or reduction in capabilities are not necessarily a bad thing.

If anyone is interested, I have here 3 posts (earlier in this thread) on why I think the above.

[_________________bob]

Originally posted by Calenth

But I think the real thing doctors need is a few more combat options besides healing (the mesmerize-effect "tranquilizer" doc only pistol I suggested earlier, for exampe.)

My 2 pence:
I have to admit, I don't play my own doctor very much any more because I am a little bored with the profession. I don't use weapons (pistol) at all, because they cause me more trouble than they are worth for the damage they give. I avoid the nano lines that draw me aggro and so end up sticking mainly to healing.

So unless I'm in a team that really likes a challenge, so that I have to work hard to keep them alive, I don't find the experience very stimulating. Only when I'm chain healing desperately or running away from a crowd of mobs aggroed on me with my team in hot pursuit trying to keep me alive do I remember why I like to play a doc!

This is a general comment and perhaps doesn't belong in this thread, but lack of game play options for docs or any other profession also seems to stem from uninteresting mobs. There seems to be no equivalent of the fantasy weak but frightening spider (pls don't poison me!), or the weak but numerous goblin/orc (pls don't overwhelm me), the mighty dragon (with it's varying methods of attack), the physically weak but very dangerous beholder etc. Mobs all look the same, have same hp, do same damage, and (in my experience) rarely cast nanos (intelligently).

The other day I was in a team mission with my Crat. After the millionth absolutely identical battle (we made 3 levels each) we were all tired and bored and so got sloppy. I got someone killed because, being bored, I forgot to recharm my pet and it ran rampant at a bad moment. I know Funcom is reducing the mission sizes, but my point is more about the fact that most combats seem all the same.

[_____________Calenth]

I wouldn't even mind intelligent, pointed, specific small reductions in trader power -- for example, fixing the non-stacking of the negative dots from trader heals. But the "nerf" crying is so big that I worry about random, undirected weakenings of the class - across the board nerfs of all trader heals, etc. I don't care what people say, so long as it's intelligent, reasoned, and moderate.

[______________Medwar]

Heya,

I agree that most other proffs have to good heals. Im not saying that its a bad thing...hey when Im on the brink of dying and a trader or adv or ma in team casts a heal on me...THANK YOU...I get to live a few more seconds before the good´ol buddy Reclaim says hi to me.
I cant see the big problem though...howcome FC doesnt lower recharge rate and specially the minimum heal...let docs "crit" their heals way more often. Docs should be the Kings and Queens of healing..the way it is now most people dont like playing docs after awhile due to them either being mass agroed or out healed.

Wish list is this:
1. Less nanocost for doc heals
2. Tighter healrange for all heals
3. Implement a "Counter Rage" nanoline for docs to avoid too much agro induced my casting heals
4. Increase the max heal output on all heals

Thank god for Cosmik...hehe...our friend on the forum
Kudos Cosmik