Traders are BETTER at healing the DOCS! Fix! Bump

**Champagne** · Apr 30th, 2002, 11:03:10

Doctors dont belong on the bottom of "fix us please"-threads. We've been on the bottom for too long.

so BUMP

**gnuman** · Apr 30th, 2002, 11:57:48

You are at the bottom right next to traders with their 80% broken and useless nano. We are so lucky that the 20% works and makes us able to play.

**Turin** · Apr 30th, 2002, 15:38:15

bump

**Kuro** · Apr 30th, 2002, 16:06:57

Originally posted by Noer
You are at the bottom right next to traders with their 80% broken and useless nano. We are so lucky that the 20% works and makes us able to play.

Shh, Noer...If people found out the little things like using charm turns us into statues or that it's physically impossible to maintain a team skill wrangle because the deprive/ransacks will always run out before the wrangle (leaving us with gimped skills for a bit), they might start complaining even worse

**Sheffy** · May 2nd, 2002, 01:58:23

Wait wait! I can't believe I missed this thread for so long!

*BUMP*

--Tsk

**___________Zeroshift** · May 2nd, 2002, 02:05:13

Grouped with a guildmate doc today. Level 133.

He saved the tanks ass twice in one mission today by using complete heal when he was at 5% health left. The tank was at full life and kicking ass again. The 8 minute recharge didn't hurt to much because we had a healpet to cover for him.

He also gave me some nice big HP buffs which saved my ass when I got argo. The tank pulled it off just in time, but had I not had those buffs I would have lost 800,000 exp.

A trader can't do either of those.

**Sheffy** · May 2nd, 2002, 02:11:13

While at the same time my Doctor has been denied from many groups which lacked a healer because they were looking for a Trader.

At least my Doc gets tells from guildies and friends in guilds we have good relations with to go hunt with them because they know how effective I can be. But it's true -- compared to a Trader at the top of the divest ladder, our team heals will not save the team as much as Trader team heals can. This has been proven time and time again when I team with a high trader and a high doctor.. I believe Mia said it best:

Team: Thanks for the heals, doc
Trader: np
Doc: ...

--Tsk

**Turin** · May 2nd, 2002, 22:34:59

bump

**ryack** · May 3rd, 2002, 10:35:07

BUMP

Funcom has a new suprise for us docs. In a post on the fixer board a dev mentioned that fixers where supposed to be the kings of HoTs. Therefore fixer HoTs will be upgraded to be better then doc ones.

So now we have:

1) Traders that heal better then docs

2) Fixers that do better HoTs then docs

What does that leave us?

We still got a nice team hp buff. But in teams i see people asking for essence first and team hp buff when they still have room for it.
We still got that nice single hp buff. But it takes so much ncu's and is so short that it's never used in teams. Except maybe for the boss room.
Oh and we have epsilon purge. Ah no they ****ed that one up real good. Docs ask for a fix to a friendly curing nano and what do we get?

I am starting to believe that i never should have reactivated my account. Not long before other games come out though.

**M@hdi** · May 3rd, 2002, 11:14:01

Docs are being "nerfed" into uselessness without ever being nerfed.

Essence is a higher boost for less NCU and it lasts longer, so it's not so strange that everyone wants that first, lol, I choose essence over doc buff as well

/me begs sony for a seat on the SWG beta force

**BGumble** · May 3rd, 2002, 13:06:46

Cool, you want essences nerfed as well?

Just a simple point here, worth considering:-

Traders on their own as primary healer are not as effective as doctors. That is a fact. In order to cast a decent heal my 95 trader has to keep debuffing (as you know). Trouble is, if you are primary healer at my level there *isn't time* to keep those debuffs up without taking big risks with your tank. At lvl 95 with a team doing missions 160-170 people die almost instantly without healing, the downtime from divesting makes it pretty risky. I know, I've done it and it was very challenging and not 100% successful, often having to drop to lower heals because the mobs had died before I could complete a pair of divests or because I was so busy healing the extra squishy people I couldnt take time out from healing to divest.

Funny thing is, we lost a member and someones guildmate, a doctor, joined the group. I was very glad to hand over my healing duty, two things were immediately noticable. Firstly there were far less scares with the doctor healing, without having to split time between calming, divesting and healing the overall healing was much steadier and safer. Secondly, with a doctor in the group I was able to ladder up through lots of ransacks and make her healing look silly if I wanted - something I couldnt do when she wasnt there and I was the only healer.

So, what am I saying:
1. Doctors make better primary healers than traders.
2. Traders as secondary healers have the time to skill up enough to outheal doctors.
3. Groups take traders because they aren't always sensible (the same reasons people use pets to tank - it can be done but overall its not as smooth).
4. At high levels against anything less than superhard oppostition it doesnt matter much who heals (I've missioned with MAs and Advs as healers before).
5. The problem isn't nearly as big or as significant as it's being made out to be, a big part of it is the general 'nerf traders they wil r0xxer pvp in 14.2' bandwagon. If it was Advents instead of Traders out teamhealing Docs you'd never get this kind of bandwagon rolling.

Docs do not need more overall healing output, its already too easy to do high level missions without adding more healing power to the game.

You can't really take away heals from traders without taking them away from Advents and MAs and you can't give Traders the same recharge time as MAs and Advs - if you did you'd get little or no heal output from a trader as the small time while a mob is alive would not be long enough for debuffing and healing. Swapping the variability? I wouldnt have a problem with that, healing is not my traders job anyway. I wouldn't even mind if one or two delayed health payments were reduced from the range so that the highest was lower and there were a few less in between.

**____________Schnulle** · May 3rd, 2002, 14:14:05

Originally posted by BGumble
Cool, you want essences nerfed as well?

Just a simple point here, worth considering:-

Traders on their own as primary healer are not as effective as doctors. That is a fact. In order to cast a decent heal my 95 trader has to keep debuffing (as you know). Trouble is, if you are primary healer at my level there *isn't time* to keep those debuffs up without taking big risks with your tank. At lvl 95 with a team doing missions 160-170 people die almost instantly without healing, the downtime from divesting makes it pretty risky. I know, I've done it and it was very challenging and not 100% successful, often having to drop to lower heals because the mobs had died before I could complete a pair of divests or because I was so busy healing the extra squishy people I couldnt take time out from healing to divest.

Funny thing is, we lost a member and someones guildmate, a doctor, joined the group. I was very glad to hand over my healing duty, two things were immediately noticable. Firstly there were far less scares with the doctor healing, without having to split time between calming, divesting and healing the overall healing was much steadier and safer. Secondly, with a doctor in the group I was able to ladder up through lots of ransacks and make her healing look silly if I wanted - something I couldnt do when she wasnt there and I was the only healer.

So, what am I saying:
1. Doctors make better primary healers than traders.
2. Traders as secondary healers have the time to skill up enough to outheal doctors.
3. Groups take traders because they aren't always sensible (the same reasons people use pets to tank - it can be done but overall its not as smooth).
4. At high levels against anything less than superhard oppostition it doesnt matter much who heals (I've missioned with MAs and Advs as healers before).
5. The problem isn't nearly as big or as significant as it's being made out to be, a big part of it is the general 'nerf traders they wil r0xxer pvp in 14.2' bandwagon. If it was Advents instead of Traders out teamhealing Docs you'd never get this kind of bandwagon rolling.

Docs do not need more overall healing output, its already too easy to do high level missions without adding more healing power to the game.

You can't really take away heals from traders without taking them away from Advents and MAs and you can't give Traders the same recharge time as MAs and Advs - if you did you'd get little or no heal output from a trader as the small time while a mob is alive would not be long enough for debuffing and healing. Swapping the variability? I wouldnt have a problem with that, healing is not my traders job anyway. I wouldn't even mind if one or two delayed health payments were reduced from the range so that the highest was lower and there were a few less in between.

I agree with you in every single point.
Trader are really good *TEAM*players. (Solo we are average like most of the other classes too). So get one for youre Team and stop crying for nerfs! dammit!

**M@hdi** · May 3rd, 2002, 14:51:41

Originally posted by Schnulle

I agree with you in every single point.
Trader are really good *TEAM*players. (Solo we are average like most of the other classes too). So get one for youre Team and stop crying for nerfs! dammit!

We are not crying for nerfs. Trades have become so paranoid, that they think every sentence that contains the word trader is a cry for nerf. You guys must realy feel overpowered

The facts are:
Doc single heals have a higher max then trader heals at same QL (given).
Doc heals roll for 110% minimum heal 90% of the time so aren't that good in comparisson.
Doc single heals are useless in stress situations due to HP bar bugs/health buff buggs. It's just impossible to see who is getting hit and who's not.
Trader teamheals roll at 110% minimum as well, goes for all heals I think.
Trader teamheals have dramatically higher minimums at SAME QL
Traders selfcast heals of same QL about the same time a doc casts his.
Traders don't HAVE to deprive/ransack to better the doc heals, they do that anyways for higher AR. If traders wouldn't focus on ransack but on heals the trader would be a better healer then a doc, just wouldn't do as much damage.

Feel free to flame me, had this discussion last night with a trader and the points mentioned up here are correct according to her.

**Bluecheeze2** · May 3rd, 2002, 15:21:29

1. Make Complete heal useful... It simply takes up way too much nano to cast. Bump it down from 1400 to 600 so I can cast it a couple times without a nano recharge. Also lower the requirements on it slightly so that it is an option at about level 120. Finally change the recast to 4 seconds. When high levels fight one second after you CH they are already again at half health so speed is of the essence and CH is kind of a roll of the dice in its current state. A team of six should not really need a backup healer in my opinion.

2. Make Complete team heal useful. Lower the casting time on it to allow for a 2 second cast time at a super high init and lower the nano on it from 1800 to 1300. Right now I can't see ever casting this in a battle because people die so fast at high level. I don't know all the nano init conversions but right now I think I can only insta cast a 4 second nano and this one is 12.

I think that is simple enough. Who cares if traders outheal our individual heals I think CH should be the only way to go at high levels. I guess this could take some of the excitement out of being a doctor becasue of less heal nanos but I think most people will really not care.

As a final thought.. Don't touch the trader profession!!!! Tweak the doctor nanos only.

Drseverity

**gnuman** · May 3rd, 2002, 15:23:07

If traders wouldn't focus on ransack but on heals the trader would be a better healer then a doc, just wouldn't do as much damage.

I experimented the other day. No matter how I implant i can't use higher than our 3rd highest trader team heal without divest at level 200. So that statement is not entirely true. I can't get better heals by changing implant setup

**M@hdi** · May 3rd, 2002, 15:44:38

Originally posted by Noer

I experimented the other day. No matter how I implant i can't use higher than our 3rd highest trader team heal without divest at level 200. So that statement is not entirely true. I can't get better heals by changing implant setup

Noer, I'm sensing a feedback loop here m8

Taking in account that heals are "broken" in a way that they constantly average for 110% of minimum (accepted by both doctors and traders) that third highest heal (sophisticated delayed health payment I believe) still outheals anything up to A&O which on itself is a crappy nano

(Even conglomerate healthplan which averages for about 550).

On a different note, it's rediculous that any doc can cast a teamheal at lvl 100 that averages for 490 and then has to plough through 50 more levels to be able to use a teamheal that averages for 550 =/

**Letah** · May 3rd, 2002, 23:29:55

Originally posted by Noer

I experimented the other day. No matter how I implant i can't use higher than our 3rd highest trader team heal without divest at level 200. So that statement is not entirely true. I can't get better heals by changing implant setup

Hehe yeah and that 3rd higest is *better* then our best, understand why we dont like it now?

its also not about number crunching, if it was done right doc should be undebatable best at healing, not needing any calc to proove we are.

**ViralBotzz** · May 3rd, 2002, 23:50:44

**First off...I dont think nearly every proffesion has got this in their head that doc's have a very boring job. We dont get to go soloing and we cant do much missions. All we have are a few buffs and heals. Suddenly, a trader ,who can crit for 3000 solo and get 500k off each wrangle, can heal much better than a doc. We are DOC's a doctor a medic surgeon...whatever...let us keep our job and heal instead a TRADER doing it for us. Stick to your proffesion's JOB!!!!!!!!

**Champagne** · May 4th, 2002, 02:19:43

Originally posted by Noer

I experimented the other day. No matter how I implant i can't use higher than our 3rd highest trader team heal without divest at level 200. So that statement is not entirely true. I can't get better heals by changing implant setup

Does your calculation include mochams BM/TS? Would you be able to use your best heal at lvl 200 with mochams/infuses/masteries?

And when traders claim that they cant heal their best without divesting, does that mean that they have to divest in addition to mochams?

Because, seriously, my lvl 104 doctor has to use mochams to be able to heal steadily for about 700-800 (550-1.1k healingrange on nano (called something regeneration of constitution or similar).

If you got mochams, would you still have to divest (for healingpurposes only)?

The doc's true best friends are the Enfs and the Metas, and I never go anywhere without them.

**ryack** · May 5th, 2002, 21:08:39

Bump for a hopeless cause.

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