Traders are BETTER at healing the DOCS! Fix! Bump

[_____________Ryuzaki]

Originally posted by Garzu


Again you want to start a flame war?

MPs got the best single target nuke in the game. 15 nukes before running empty... is that a handful? FYI thats 736x15 min dmg and 1515 x 15 max dmg. I rarely have been in a fight where I have to cast more than 7-8 nukes, mostly its 1-3 nukes every fight. Boss mobs are only exception. All NTs I know would trade the MPs MQ for any NT single target nuke. It does more dmg than any single target NT nuke can do over time at max defence, until the MP runs out of nano, which is after 15 nukes at my lvl.

And btw, quote me on where I asked for a nerf of the MP nukes, I asked for a boost of NT nukes. Not only do you come with false accusations of what I ask for and want for my profession, but you also

MADE A BIG MISTAKE IN THIS THREAD: (as always )


And lets take a look at your "numbers". You claim the docs are faster and got "higher" skill reqs

This is best trader team heal: Premium Delayed Health Payment

Execution 2.8 secs.
Recharge 3.8 secs.

Heals for 920-1144

Cost 262

Req TS: 862 BM: 777



This is best Doc team heal: Conglomerate Health Plan

Execution 3.29 secs.
Recharge 4.88 secs.

Heals for 485-970

Cost 178

Req BM: 856 MM: 772


My dear sweet Zeroshift.... Seems to me you got it all wrong.... again . The min heal on the traders is about the same as the max heal of the docs. Not only that, the TRADERS are the fastest, both the recharge AND the execution. Not only were you wrong on that part, you also claim the reqs are higher... well, in a way you are correct, cause it is the huge difference of 6 (six) points in BM and the enormous difference of 5 (five) points between TS and MM. .

You are right on the nano cost of the heals, the traders cost more, and the same with the MP nuke vs NT nuke, it costs more. BUT, you dont seem to get the point.... ANY DOC OR NT WOULD GLADLY PAY MORE NANO POINTS FOR BETTER HEALS/NUKES. Fact is that either the doc or NT runs our of Nano pool very often, I got plenty after a fight, except vs boss mobs.

And for the implant BS: Who cares what implants the traders use? All that is important is that he in fact can use better team heals than the doc. IF he chooses to set up his implants to do it or not, thats something for the individual trader to do, but he got the opportunity to have the best team heals in the game, thats all that counts in my world.

In your world the trader/MP pays a "price" because it costs more to cast the heal/nuke. I got news for you, and I bet the docs got some for you too, I am more than willing to pay more nano points for my nukes if thats what is required for them to be boosted.

And what do you have against boosts? What would be so bad for you if some professions got a boost? You fight every request for a boost with all you got, yes even your own stupidity.

Kick ass.

Thanks and goodbye

cant stop me from reading ur great post over and over again

bump bump bump...

[_________________bob]

Originally posted by Letah
[B] I use you, traders as why ours are so bad.

/me thinks she better had used ma/adv as example because these traders seems so agitated on something that does not concern their class at all, only a comparisson.

This thread is about doctor's being the best at (team) healing. You can only be the best at something relative to something else.
Therefore I humbly suggest that this discussion concerns all classes that heal.

I would be very interested to know how good the adventurer and MA heals are. If they are definitely not as good as the Trader and Doc, then Trader is a good profession to use to determine whether the Doctors are the best healers.

You mention you always heal for the minimum amount. I have not noticed this with my Doctor, although I haven't really been paying attention. If this is a problem, would not fixing the doc heals to heal (in the long run) for the proper average amount (ie 727.5 on a 485-970) be a viable solution, rather than raising the minimum on the heals?

I'm not saying raising the minimum on the heals is not a good solution (I have no opinion there), I am just suggesting another one.

Incidently, everyone seems paranoid of nerfs. If a reduction in capabilities is called for to improve game balance and therefore enjoyment of the game, and it is backed up with well reasoned and vaild arguments, I really don't see the problem with it.
A change in the way Trader heals work or their stats may be a viable way of making the doctors (for those that don't believe they are already) the best healers. It may not. However, I think all ways of solving the (alleged) problem of doctors not being the best healers should be looked at, and not just one (make doctor team heals better, faster or whatever).

I have mentioned changing Trader heals alot, and some may think that I have an agenda. I do have an agenda but it is not that. It is to try and get more solutions looked at and debated than just the one that is mainly called in this thread.

[xbmspec]

"If doc's get better teamheals maybe the ma's will get evened our recharge rates too I'm not sure what the adv heals lack though, i'd be interested into hearing how their heals are."

They do have a Complete heal that ha s a random chance of landing : )

But right now, Traders outheal MA's and Adv's and Doctors.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by bob


This thread is about doctor's being the best at (team) healing. You can only be the best at something relative to something else.
Therefore I humbly suggest that this discussion concerns all classes that heal.

I would be very interested to know how good the adventurer and MA heals are. If they are definitely not as good as the Trader and Doc, then Trader is a good profession to use to determine whether the Doctors are the best healers.

There is one other thing to consider, which people have been ignoring in the discussion from the start. That is the performance of the professions at all levels and not just "Look what he can do at level 189".

Other issues that are being ignored are: nano cost of an action (which some say is immaterial), ip expenditure for the skills, implant conflicts, credit cost. Very little of this thread has been an actual side by side comparison of the doctor's performance against any profession.

Given what I've seen so far, both here and ingame, I do believe in terms of average healing doctors need a boost so they heal more on average per heal than other professions. But before anyone goes around mucking with ANY OTHER PROFESSIONS to attempt balancing, the whole story needs to be told. After all if a doctor is the better healer for levels 1-195, then what needs to be addressed is their performance with their high level nanoformulas.

[Letah]

Originally posted by bob


This thread is about doctor's being the best at (team) healing. You can only be the best at something relative to something else.
Therefore I humbly suggest that this discussion concerns all classes that heal.

I would be very interested to know how good the adventurer and MA heals are. If they are definitely not as good as the Trader and Doc, then Trader is a good profession to use to determine whether the Doctors are the best healers.

You mention you always heal for the minimum amount. I have not noticed this with my Doctor, although I haven't really been paying attention. If this is a problem, would not fixing the doc heals to heal (in the long run) for the proper average amount (ie 727.5 on a 485-970) be a viable solution, rather than raising the minimum on the heals?

I'm not saying raising the minimum on the heals is not a good solution (I have no opinion there), I am just suggesting another one.

Incidently, everyone seems paranoid of nerfs. If a reduction in capabilities is called for to improve game balance and therefore enjoyment of the game, and it is backed up with well reasoned and vaild arguments, I really don't see the problem with it.
A change in the way Trader heals work or their stats may be a viable way of making the doctors (for those that don't believe they are already) the best healers. It may not. However, I think all ways of solving the (alleged) problem of doctors not being the best healers should be looked at, and not just one (make doctor team heals better, faster or whatever).

I have mentioned changing Trader heals alot, and some may think that I have an agenda. I do have an agenda but it is not that. It is to try and get more solutions looked at and debated than just the one that is mainly called in this thread.

For the first time I agree with a Trader

As you can read my 1st post (threadstart one) I do not ask for just "higher" teamheals, I want it fixed. That can indeed be better avg's like that (min+max/2) you said, shamefull it is not now. Check the doc forum; we did 100's of casts with different abilities and the avg heals is about this: A heal of 500-900 will heal 90% times for 550ish, making it the avg. Wether funcom "fixes" that by making heals skill depended (like more avg when you outgrow the reqs), better min heals, faster recharge rates or whatever, I do not care, I just want it better then how it is now.

Thanks for the constructive post, no offence against your class but they all seem to burst in flames when you approach with a burning twig.

[Mercatura]

Thanks for the constructive post, no offence against your class but they all seem to burst in flames when you approach with a burning twig.

When you see your friends burned at the stake, you tend to be wary of people carrying torches.

The title of your post is a big Come Here sign for all the nerf mongers on the forums.

It would also help if doc HoTs were cheaper to cast and drew a lot less aggro, then you wouldn't have to worry as much about placing one on the tank.

[______________Nelida]

the duration of the DoT was decreased substantially. If all you do is stack the DoTs then the line of nanos becomes useless since those DoTs last through 2 or 3 mob...the number of heals a Trader could do over 3 mob would be so few as to render the line pretty much worthless, not to mention dangerous.

And, btw, I HAVE killed myself in the heat of battle with multiple adds using health transfers when I've had that DoT running AND getting aggroed from a 4k Defender crit.

BUT, here we are again discussing a NERF to other classes so we can make a Doc more valuable. Why does it seem to ALWAYS degenerate to this? Let's talk about making Doc heals MORE valuable by working directly on THEM instead of working on everyone else...

Originally posted by bob


QUOTE]Originally posted by Mercatura
Lets get them all working properly again before we all get on the trader nerf bandwagon.

Despite the original posters claimed intentions, theres a big 'nerf trader team heals' coming across.

If the DOT's on the Trader Team-Heal stacked, would the Trader's out there consider it a nerf? To me it would seem to be making things work as they should, as Traders are about trading life, nano points, skills etc to achieve results. In fact, when I started my Trader I was pretty surprised to find this wasn't the case with the Team-Heal (since the non-stacking DOT is not significant).
I certainly don't want Trader's nerfed (I play one), but I'm just wondering whether people think the Trader Team-Heal works as it should.

I certainly think doctor's should be the best healers, but as someone touched on earlier, improving doctor's team heals may not be the best solution (I also play a Doc). Problem is it may disrupt the balance of something else, leading to another change, with another consequent change and so on and so on and so on. The stackable DOT change would have less of an effect on overall game balance than improving the Doctor's heals. [/QUOTE]

[_________________bob]

I take your point regarding duration of the DOT's and stacking.

However,

Originally posted by Zuleica
BUT, here we are again discussing a NERF to other classes so we can make a Doc more valuable. Why does it seem to ALWAYS degenerate to this?

Just to save typing, I'll quote myself:

If a reduction in capabilities is called for to improve game balance and therefore enjoyment of the game, and it is backed up with well reasoned and vaild arguments, I really don't see the problem with it. [...] I think all ways of solving the (alleged) problem of doctors not being the best healers should be looked at, and not just one (make doctor team heals better, faster or whatever).

This could apply to any game balance discussion and any profession.

Would someone like to comment as to why everyone automatically considers a reduction in capabilities a bad thing?

To clarify my own position, I'm not for or against nerfing anyone, or for and against improving anyone. I am for looking at all constructive solutions.

[_________________bob]

To expand on my previous post, in an on-topic manner.

Imagine that Doctor Team-Heals are improved. Now imagine that, because Boss Mobs are now too easy, their HP has to be raised.

The effect of this would be to reduce the effectiveness of every other profession against boss' (they may not always have a doctor in the team) because the Doctor profession was improved. This is just an example, and I don't want to debate how likely it is to occur.

So an improvement to one profession may force a further change that effectively reduces the capabilities of every other professsion.

Similarly, if you improve every profession (never 'nerf'), but not equally, then because Mobs must be improved to balance the game, again some professions will have effectively had their capabilities reduced relative to the other professions.

For this reason a reduction in capabilities may be the best long term solution, as it may affect only one profession instead of many. Sometimes an improvement will be best. It all depends on the situation and arguments involved.

The point is that game balance is a relative beast, it makes no difference (just for an example) if you heal for 10% more/less if the mobs end up with 10% more/less HP to balance it.

[___________Zeroshift]

Consider this:

Trader top heal nano:
Bio met- 862
T&S- 727

Doctor top heal nano:
Bio met- 856
Matter met- 772

-- Both of those nanos are QL 182.

-- Traders have blue bio met, doctors have green bio met.
-- Traders have teal T&S, doctors have green matter met.

-- Right off the bat the doc nano comes a few levels earlier.

-- Doc's can raise their healing nano skills much higher, and cheaper.

-- Doc's will almost always have those 2 nano skills implanted fully. While traders will usually focus on nano skills for the wrangle and deprive lines.

-- Traders CAN divest/plunder their nano skills, but at best this will only even out the gap they have between the doc's superior nano skills and implants. They will have to keep refreshing this, this is not always a possibilty while hunting reds because one of the skill drain lines is very difficult to land on a hard mob.

-- Finally, and most importantly, look at the requirements for this nano: http://www.hackersquest.org/ao/show....d=42409&item=0

Alpha and Omega:

"Completely heals all members in the caster's team of all damage."

BiologicalMetamorphose 874
MaterialMetamorphose 787

Compare those numbers with the doctors top heal nano:

BiologicalMetamorphose 874 / 856
MaterialMetamorphose 787 / 772

A doctor can easily use their top healing nano before level 182, whereas a trader will usually not be able to use his at level 182.

It's save to say that by the time the trader is using his top healing nano, the doctor will be using "Alpha and Omega".

..................

And I haven't even gotten into all the HP buffs, HoTs, and other stuff a doc has over a trader.

[Dalmatia]

Here, here! This NEEDS to be fixed... My doc is in retirement and my account will soon follow if this isn't fixed!!!

[Dalmatia]

Alpha & Omega = WORTHLESS
Notice the recharge time on A&O... 12sec... plenty of time for an entire group to be killed.... I personally consider it more of a novelty than heal

[xbmspec]

-- Doc's will almost always have those 2 nano skills implanted fully. While traders will usually focus on nano skills for the wrangle and deprive lines.

BM, MM have complications when Implanting. You have to choose between high BM or MM and will be short on one skill for most Nanos.

-- Doc's can raise their healing nano skills much higher, and cheaper.

Your not reading Garzu's posts. The end difference is a marginal 5 or so points.

And yes. Alpha and Omega is total useless.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by [CrispyChicken]
-- Doc's will almost always have those 2 nano skills implanted fully. While traders will usually focus on nano skills for the wrangle and deprive lines.

BM, MM have complications when Implanting. You have to choose between high BM or MM and will be short on one skill for most Nanos.

Nobody can give a shining cluster to 2 nanoskills. They all occupy the Head slot.

Originally posted by [CrispyChicken]

-- Doc's can raise their healing nano skills much higher, and cheaper.

Your not reading Garzu's posts. The end difference is a marginal 5 or so points.

And yes. Alpha and Omega is total useless.

Alpha and Omega may or may not be totally useless. It's totally useless if the doctor intends to try and spam heal it. But it has possibilities for a good team heal if there's a 2ndary healer in the group (Doc uses A&O when the team gets dangerously low on HP, and the 2ndary healer takes over while he recharges).

[___________Zeroshift]

You misunderstood me. When I said "fully" I meant they would be implanted to their full potential, not nessesarly having 3 of all clusters.

Alpha and omega is more of an "all or nothing" heal. It better do the trick because you won't get another shot.

That was not the focus of my points though. Overall doctors are better suited to healing, and I will NEVER take a trader over a doctor.

[Turin]

Originally posted by Zeroshift
Consider this:

Trader top heal nano:
Bio met- 862
T&S- 727

Doctor top heal nano:
Bio met- 856
Matter met- 772

-- Both of those nanos are QL 182.

-- Traders have blue bio met, doctors have green bio met.
-- Traders have teal T&S, doctors have green matter met.

-- Right off the bat the doc nano comes a few levels earlier.

-- Doc's can raise their healing nano skills much higher, and cheaper.

-- Doc's will almost always have those 2 nano skills implanted fully. While traders will usually focus on nano skills for the wrangle and deprive lines.

-- Traders CAN divest/plunder their nano skills, but at best this will only even out the gap they have between the doc's superior nano skills and implants. They will have to keep refreshing this, this is not always a possibilty while hunting reds because one of the skill drain lines is very difficult to land on a hard mob.

-- Finally, and most importantly, look at the requirements for this nano: http://www.hackersquest.org/ao/show....d=42409&item=0

Alpha and Omega:

"Completely heals all members in the caster's team of all damage."

BiologicalMetamorphose 874
MaterialMetamorphose 787

Compare those numbers with the doctors top heal nano:

BiologicalMetamorphose 874 / 856
MaterialMetamorphose 787 / 772

A doctor can easily use their top healing nano before level 182, whereas a trader will usually not be able to use his at level 182.

It's save to say that by the time the trader is using his top healing nano, the doctor will be using "Alpha and Omega".

..................

And I haven't even gotten into all the HP buffs, HoTs, and other stuff a doc has over a trader.

wrong. I dont think a single doctor on the planet uses Alpha & Omega. It recharge and cast times are WAY to long. I have no intentino of ever using it. Might not even bother to upload it

[_________________bob]

Originally posted by [CrispyChicken]


-- Doc's can raise their healing nano skills much higher, and cheaper.

Your not reading Garzu's posts. The end difference is a marginal 5 or so points.

The practical differences in requirements should be looked at and not just the raw figures.

As has been pointed out several times the Trader skills T&S and BM take more IP to raise that the doctor BM&MM. I don't have a really high level character so forgive me any mistake here, but isn't the maximum amount per level you can raise these skills per level also different?

Also as has been pointed out, for a comparison to be truly worthwhile it should be valid over the entire life of the professions, not just at their top levels. Perhaps raising a blue skill really high is easy at very high levels, but at my levels IP is scarce and this is not easy.

On saying that I recognise that some of you were specifically talking about the doctor and trader's highest level heals.

Would someone who knows like to post the IP required to reach various levels of T&S, BM &MM for the Doctor and Trader?
Can someone comment on whether they think the relative caps on how much you can raise these skills per level makes a practical difference?

It seems an easy point to get objective information on, so there seems no need to go around in circles in this argument (that the doctor and trader requirements are or are not significantly different for their respective heals).

[xbmspec]

IP is abundent when you hit Title Cap around level 126. Its not really about how much IP it takes to raise the skill.

[_________________bob]

Forgive me (I don't have a really high level char), but why is the IP it takes not relevant?

[_________________bob]

Originally posted by bob
Forgive me (I don't have a really high level char), but why is the IP it takes not relevant?

Oops, that was what you were answering.

Do you think the relative IP costs of BM,MM,TS are not relevant for the lower levels too, or just once IP is abundant?