MP can self cast daemon at lvl 120, engi at lvl 170

**____________Meligant** · Apr 16th, 2002, 16:39:35

Originally posted by Archelan

So engies can't heal their pet, is that what you're saying? Strange then, that I've myself found several engineer crystals that do exactly that...

MP's have a healpet, yes, but when doing missions that pet is, atleast in my case, always watching after me. I died many times on lower levels because I had my healpet on my combat pet. And when I send my pet on a mob, the mob tends to attack me, as do all the adds. If I participate in the fight, I'm more likely to get aggro, but if I stand back and have my healpet protect me, my combat pet and healpet usually ends up with aggro a lot of the time, but far from all the time.

And please define "better". When I'm in team with an engie with a slayer, that slayer is usually the one dealing the most damage.

I have no roots. When do I get those?

Yes, we have nukes, although not very powerfull ones. We have, on the other hands, nothing but dark blue combat skills.

However, the second we're debuffed our nukes won't help us squat (NT's have the same problem), whereas those with guns suffer little or no consequence from a debuff.

Apparently you didn't bother to read my entire post. I said that it's in the tradeskills-department we'll see some improvement. It's in the pet-department things are fine as they are now.

IMHO no class should be able to provide everything needed to become the most uber themselves. Professions depending on other professions to go above their own potential is the way it should be IMHO. Granted, that's not exactly how things are at the moment, but it seems that's the goal FC is working towards, and I like it. Classes should be equally powerfull in their different areas, but no two classes should be equal in the same area. That's my opinion on the matter. Engies need tradeskills to work properly (and be able to do more with them), they don't need the ability to selfbuff to the highest possible pets.

Arch - you left out the KEY difference that you CAN recast your pets in the mission. An engineer has to leave the mission and go back to town to get buffs from YOU to get his bot back up.

Also, since your level 126 can't you cast the best demon now? My brother's MP can and like I said. his pet out damages the 2nd highest slayer all the time in missions and he's only using the +219 damage buff.

Only point of order I could suggest is that your demon has less HP then the slayer. Not a big problem when you can recast it on the fly.

**_____________Dyspare** · Apr 16th, 2002, 17:32:59

Biggest issue is this.

Engie's should not be SUMMONING their pets. We're engineers, we should be _building_ our bots.

Base our bots, not on our nano skills, but rather on our mechanical skills.

Only makes sense.

**_________haniblecter** · Apr 16th, 2002, 19:24:51

.....and give engi's SELF ONLY trade skill buffs that are supiorer to traders. Change the dynamics of tradeskills without nerfing anyone.

**Intone** · Apr 17th, 2002, 11:07:04

Originally posted by max-iic
[B]lol Archelan, u r incredebly wrong

MP can heal their pets, add 219 DMG buff, have pet to take aggro

MP pet buffed r BETTER then engi PET

and u have ROOT / Nano buff / Odin's eye / NUKE / .... and i m not talking about the utility of heal pet

Whoa! Let's cool down a bit here shall we?

That 219 DMG buff you are envying about is propably anima that has incredible 20sec duration and it's pretty much related to the issue of pet taking the aggro.

I play lvl 127 MP and can selfbuff demon called fiend. That's second of those demons. That particular demon is not at all good in holding aggro, as mob will attack ME instantly as I cast that anima on my demon. Heck, the mob will attack me instantly when i even show my face to same room in mission. It doesnt seem to do any good that my pet whacks constant 1k+ hits...

We have no way to really increase aggro to our pet. Chant line of pet buffs are supposed to help a bit in this issue, but the fact is that my with ql189 high chant of effortless strikes (?) I still get insta-aggro from all mobs.

I've learned to deal with it, yes. The way I proceed in mission is to use creative camera angles to target mob without entering room, hiding behind the wall and then do /pet attack. Works like a charm with single mob. With 2 or more mobs.. well, i will get attacked by msg from rooms away. And the mob warps soon after to my location. Through the wall. Yes.

I really have hard time believing that MP demon is so much better than slayerdroid. Demon has fraction of HP that slayer has. Demon holds aggro much worse that slayer. Demon does however hit slightly harder with animas and such, but when soloing big mobs that nano is just plain suicide.

... and the ROOT you're envying about. Well, let's take a closer look to that dear curse of chronos nano:

Name Curse of Chronos
Description The target is rendered totally immobile for a period of time, unable to move or attack.
QL 169
Nanocost 328
Duration 5.25 s
Attack time 2.35 s
Recharge time 10 s
Range 15 m

Requirements time and space 795
sensory imp 723

Amazing "root" really. Duration of 5.25 sec? Nanocost 328? Hardly worth the fuzz... bureucrat gets much better root at lvl 1

**Archelan** · Apr 17th, 2002, 11:31:44

Originally posted by Meligant

Arch - you left out the KEY difference that you CAN recast your pets in the mission. An engineer has to leave the mission and go back to town to get buffs from YOU to get his bot back up.

That's the point, isn't it. Engie pets don't expire, MP pets do. If an engie looses his pet, chances are he died, which means he's at reclaim somewhere and no longer in a mission. So if you are to take away our nanobuffs, you'd need to make our pets permanent if we'd ever get a chance to actually do anything usefull.

Originally posted by Meligant
Also, since your level 126 can't you cast the best demon now? My brother's MP can and like I said. his pet out damages the 2nd highest slayer all the time in missions and he's only using the +219 damage buff.

I can cast Fiend, which is the second demon. My skills are capped, so I can't summon a higher one until I reach level 151 or so. My implants are PM/SI-focused, which is probably why I can't get higher demons yet. If I could get the Blackshirt of Zuwadza I probably could (+22 MC and TS), but with an 18 hour respawn time, a 1-in-7 drop rate, and with insane camping, I'll never get my hands on the shirt.

Originally posted by Meligant
Only point of order I could suggest is that your demon has less HP then the slayer. Not a big problem when you can recast it on the fly.

It takes a lot of time to recast a demon and buff it. I'm likely do get killed in the process. Then again, I never have any problems with mobs killing my demon (only ever happened once), nor have I experienced a slayer getting killed in a mission - not by a longshot. If that happens, chances are you can't do that mission at all regardless of profession

Everyone seems to whine about their profession not being good enough and that this and that profession has this and that which is such and so much better... Sometimes it's reasonable whining, but in this case it's not. Engineers shouldn't be able to self-buff into higher level bots. They should, as I've said before, get more possibilities regarding tradeskills. Don't suggest giving engineers nanoskill-buffs, it makes no sense. Let us keep those, and give them to the NT's as well. Give engineers tradeskills-buffs and make tradeskills worth more than they are as of now. And yes, make botcreation dependend on engineering skills instead of nanoskills - that's the most excellent suggestion I've seen in this discussion so far. Engineers are engineers, not nano-junkies like us

**Zepher** · Apr 17th, 2002, 12:02:26

Originally posted by Archelan

So engies can't heal their pet, is that what you're saying? Strange then, that I've myself found several engineer crystals that do exactly that...

Wow they require Bio met, which is DARKEST OF DARKEST BLUE skill to us ...

You got green skills for your heal pet...

Bot healing crystals aren't even worth the IP cos all you'll do with helaing them is draw the aggro to yourself cos the heals are higher then max dmg of bot most times (that is , if you sank ip into bio met as an engi)...

Nah ... we can't heal our bots really...

**Zepher** · Apr 17th, 2002, 12:06:13

Originally posted by Dyspare
Biggest issue is this.

Engie's should not be SUMMONING their pets. We're engineers, we should be _building_ our bots.

Base our bots, not on our nano skills, but rather on our mechanical skills.

Only makes sense.

Dabnaggit that's what I've been thinking from the day I started playing AO and playing my engi... now at level 130 I'd love to see that happen though ... at least I wouldn't have been spending ip on worthless skills anymore ... besides, with the IP reset coming they can do this actually! Only prob is, I got a set of worthless implants left, but I don't care about that... I'd welcome this change!

**____________Meligant** · Apr 17th, 2002, 15:40:53

Originally posted by Archelan

That's the point, isn't it. Engie pets don't expire, MP pets do. If an engie looses his pet, chances are he died, which means he's at reclaim somewhere and no longer in a mission. So if you are to take away our nanobuffs, you'd need to make our pets permanent if we'd ever get a chance to actually do anything usefull.

I can cast Fiend, which is the second demon. My skills are capped, so I can't summon a higher one until I reach level 151 or so. My implants are PM/SI-focused, which is probably why I can't get higher demons yet. If I could get the Blackshirt of Zuwadza I probably could (+22 MC and TS), but with an 18 hour respawn time, a 1-in-7 drop rate, and with insane camping, I'll never get my hands on the shirt.

It takes a lot of time to recast a demon and buff it. I'm likely do get killed in the process. Then again, I never have any problems with mobs killing my demon (only ever happened once), nor have I experienced a slayer getting killed in a mission - not by a longshot. If that happens, chances are you can't do that mission at all regardless of profession

Everyone seems to whine about their profession not being good enough and that this and that profession has this and that which is such and so much better... Sometimes it's reasonable whining, but in this case it's not. Engineers shouldn't be able to self-buff into higher level bots. They should, as I've said before, get more possibilities regarding tradeskills. Don't suggest giving engineers nanoskill-buffs, it makes no sense. Let us keep those, and give them to the NT's as well. Give engineers tradeskills-buffs and make tradeskills worth more than they are as of now. And yes, make botcreation dependend on engineering skills instead of nanoskills - that's the most excellent suggestion I've seen in this discussion so far. Engineers are engineers, not nano-junkies like us

Archelan - good response.

My point was if you faced off with an engineer your demon would win.

2nd highest Demon vs a QL 130s War Bot (what an engineer could probably cast without MP buffs)

Result: Dead bot.

That is the massive difference I’m talking about.

**_____________max-iic** · Apr 18th, 2002, 13:31:04

yes and that suxx

what do engi have ?

we are NOT the main tradeskill class, Traders are
we are NOT the best pet class, MP are

we don't want to be the best tradeskill class atm, they really sux but we want to be at least AS GOOD AS MP when we see all that they have, heal pet - aggro pet - attack pet - deamon pet - nano buffs - and go on .... that they can SELFCAST !!!!

and we have Armor buffs ... and bots that are weaker or equals to MP Pet

which we cannot selfcast ...., try to find where is the problem

**____________Moodyman** · Apr 18th, 2002, 13:56:25

127 and 126 and only fiend???
with 160 imps alone (and ma pillow :P) i can cast a fiend at 123 - add t othat my Shades of lube and as of 1 week ago a B shirt of Z and im almost at the stage of Caco

ive said before iand i would like to state this again (actually 2 things)

first is on pets - dont listen to the waste of space engis who claim MP pets are strong - they arnt i show'd them that with maths - a caco hitting a slayer and slayer hitting back (no animas involved but a heal pet was) demon died slayer was at 50% life - add the anima and the same would hold tru but slayer would be at 10%/20% - wow u say prob is casting the hiughest anima is insti aggro on the MP with mobs - and in PvP pets never fight pets in practice they always fight the owners (while the owners run in circles since pets cant hit and run) - yes MP's have what u call a ROOT - actually it is ment to be a STUN nano but since they were nerfed for no reason other than PvPers complaining its worthless now

ok first point down - next point is u can compare pets all u want but the profs are different - u can say things bout demon and Slayers but when it comes down to prof comparisons - we aint nothin alike and we cant be said to be

MP's are and have been perfected to be - nano buffers
Engis SHOULD be trade skill master - builders - they havent been Perfected yet and when they are i hope FC gives them the MP treatment
but other than the pet we arent the same

as for SLayers yes theres a massive problem - 1 bug causing ql 200 to require more skill to use (think thats right) and problems woth some breeds never been able to self cast it - thats a little out the bug should be fixed and i can understand a kinda balence issue where atrox/opifex engis cant self summon ql200 slayers but a solitus should since they are the bog standard breed

bottom line?? complain about your class - list your faults and FC will fix them (when they get round to it) but dont bring other profs in who on the most part are supporting u

**_____________max-iic** · Apr 18th, 2002, 14:52:48

i have never said i wanted FC to nerf the MP, i m just upset to see how it's so boring to run after buffs to be able to cast my pets when i c all avantages MP have

wich of our bot is the stronger, it's not so important coz they almost never die

but for example, 10mins ago, i connect with my engi 130(Killdarules), start to shout after mochams in OE / 20k / BS no MP there, so what did i have to do, "x" -> "F10" -> "Quit"

i think FC should give us at least the ability to selfcast our droid like MP can selfcast their daemon, a NANO buff only SELFCASTABLE for engis would be really nice, i don't say i want my heal to be able to heal chars, BIO met that's the requiered skill is dark blue skill and i will never raise it.

but really MP r REALLY stronger then MP now, and it will still be worth with the OE rules, u ll be able to selfcast u deaon and control it, we won't be able to keep control of droid until 150 for NEW ENGIES (due to implants treatment "exploit" fix)

that's why i was conplaining but don't tell me that we r as good as MP or that the current way our bot r working is good !

**_________KrazyKanuck** · Apr 18th, 2002, 20:42:19

Originally posted by Moodyman
bottom line?? complain about your class - list your faults and FC will fix them (when they get round to it) but dont bring other profs in who on the most part are supporting u

ROFL the MPs i know are whining engies are too strong. If you are siding that engies need some work then you are definately not in the majority of the MP community.

**_________KrazyKanuck** · Apr 18th, 2002, 20:48:59

Originally posted by Archelan

So engies can't heal their pet, is that what you're saying? Strange then, that I've myself found several engineer crystals that do exactly that...

Lets see. My pet heals can heal my pet. MPs heal pet can heal pet/themselves/anyone they want. You say in another post the only time a engie looses a pet is when they die. You therefore nullify your arguement about our healing being equal to MP healing. You basically say there yourself engie heals are absolutely useless. We can't even use our pet heals on other engie or crats bots.

MPs and traders are the uber classes of AO right now. And the fact MPs can recast your pet in the middle of a mission without dying essentially means your pets have infinate HP. A engie who looses their pet in mission is dead before they can toss out a new self buffed pet.

**______________Soccom** · Apr 18th, 2002, 21:05:43

Originally posted by KrazyKanuck

Lets see. My pet heals can heal my pet. MPs heal pet can heal pet/themselves/anyone they want. You say in another post the only time a engie looses a pet is when they die. You therefore nullify your arguement about our healing being equal to MP healing. You basically say there yourself engie heals are absolutely useless. We can't even use our pet heals on other engie or crats bots.

MPs and traders are the uber classes of AO right now. And the fact MPs can recast your pet in the middle of a mission without dying essentially means your pets have infinate HP. A engie who looses their pet in mission is dead before they can toss out a new self buffed pet.

Ok that is BS.
Have an extra shell in your pack. you CAN get out a new self cast pet faster than a MP.

One thing i have noticed is that Engineer bots seem to get stronger the closer you are to using them self cast.

I could cast the highest slayer at lvl 108. Against 1 real mean or 1 ace the bot would take a serious beating. Even with constant bot healing the bot would usually eat it.
Now at lvl 133 I'm just gifts or infuse/small wrangle off from casting the highest slayer droid. Now the bot can tank a ace or real mean much easier and after 0 heals is only 1/2 hp left. Maybe this is because i have much higher lvl trimmers now and maybe its dependant on skills... with FC who knows.

engineers have MANY MANY lvls of bots from lvl 1 - lvl 200.
If MPs didnt' have their nano buffs they would use yellow-grey pets all of their lvls. Even with teachings/masteries/infuse/gifts most MPs live with orange or barely red pets all their lvls up to abuot 120 when gifts become an option. This is because their is usually 5-15 lvls skill differences between the Engie pets and 10-30 skills difference between the MP pets.

MPs max out at lvl 125-130 while Engineers never really do.

BTW I'm an Engie not MP.
After 14.2 I am going pure trade skill and TS/MC.

**_________KrazyKanuck** · Apr 18th, 2002, 21:55:00

Originally posted by Irritated

Ok that is BS.
Have an extra shell in your pack. you CAN get out a new self cast pet faster than a MP.

Since your a engie you would know that there is a delay from the time that your pet dies until the time you can activate the next shell even if you already have one sitting in your inventory. It takes less time for my MP to cast a new one then it take to activate my engie shell.

you say you play a engie but it doesn't seem like it. or maybe you have just never lost a pet before.

or maybe since you haven't played a MP at all you don't realize how fast you can cast MP pets.

**______________Soccom** · Apr 18th, 2002, 22:22:21

Originally posted by KrazyKanuck

Since your a engie you would know that there is a delay from the time that your pet dies until the time you can activate the next shell even if you already have one sitting in your inventory. It takes less time for my MP to cast a new one then it take to activate my engie shell.

you say you play a engie but it doesn't seem like it. or maybe you have just never lost a pet before.

or maybe since you haven't played a MP at all you don't realize how fast you can cast MP pets.

Mine dies all the time. I don't bother getting Gifts unless I team with my MP friend. And his pets die and require him to resummon them.

Takes about 1 seconds from the time it fully dies. (Just like the amount of time it takes to loot a mob after it does the death animation)
Its faster to get bot out.

**_____________max-iic** · Apr 18th, 2002, 22:48:19

first shell have same requierement as nano prog so we were talking about Best BOTS of both class, not the warbot an engi can self cast at lvl 105 when he should be able to selfcast a warmachine

so if u bot die, same with a shell u won't be able to cast a new GOOD one ....

**_____________Xorlium** · Apr 18th, 2002, 23:56:42

OMG!
engi's and MP's complaining about each other?!

whats your problem??

see, im an NT... now, WE got issues... u guys are too strong!!

Actually, i prefer teaming with an ENGI than with a MP... slayers are more useful than demon+healpet, even if im stronger when theres a MP in the team...
but who cares? both are UBER...

**______________Soccom** · Apr 19th, 2002, 00:11:17

Originally posted by Xorlium
OMG!
engi's and MP's complaining about each other?!

whats your problem??

see, im an NT... now, WE got issues... u guys are too strong!!

Actually, i prefer teaming with an ENGI than with a MP... slayers are more useful than demon+healpet, even if im stronger when theres a MP in the team...
but who cares? both are UBER...

The funny thing is I'm an engineer defending MPs. =)

I'm saying the exact same thing as you. Engineers are fine the way they are. Sure i would love tradeskills to actually work but thats just me.
Engies don't need nano skills boosts =)

**______________Soccom** · Apr 19th, 2002, 00:28:27

Originally posted by max-iic
first shell have same requierement as nano prog so we were talking about Best BOTS of both class, not the warbot an engi can self cast at lvl 105 when he should be able to selfcast a warmachine

so if u bot die, same with a shell u won't be able to cast a new GOOD one ....

Summon a lower bot.
No other class in AO can solo a mission twice their lvl. Its a great advantage with huge rewards and great risks. With self cast bots an engineer can STILL solo a mission much higher in difficulty than any other profession.

You shouldn't be using a warmachine at lvl105. If you team with a MP that can cast gifts then you get to resummon a bot that requires 160 plus your skill as many times as you want.
If you get gifts and a 132 wrangle to cast your bot then after 14.2 it wont' respond after the 132 wears off anyway.

If you want to get the huge rewards of soloing full hard missions at lvl 105 take the good with the bad.
Good = Massive Exp.. can get much better items/nanos earlier than any other class except maybe the sneaking Agent.
Bad= Have to get buffs to cast bots (which actually last as long as you stay alive and don't crash) which cost money and have to be refreshed when the bot dies.

Come on fellow engies.. let the people that actually need to whine whine... IE fixers / adventures/ agents.

Thread: MP can self cast daemon at lvl 120, engi at lvl 170

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