For those interested in an IP-wipe:

[_______________Snarf]

No Lucid, I *do* understand what you're saying. You're just way over-estimating the effect.

Your argument only effects skills that:

1. you know beforehand the precise value that you want that skill to be at. (ex: I have a pillow and need exactly 122 1hb)
AND
2. you have no intention of raising that skill in the mid to long term. because if you do want them higher in the future, you're going to need to pump more points in anyway.

I personally have a total of one skill that falls under this category. My nano skills, while maybe I need precisely 846 MC for my current best nano, will need to be raised in the future. The fact that I'll need to raise this anyway soon means that I'm really getting no long-term (and when it comes to balancing, long term is key) IP advantage. My evades, run speed, body dev: if I have spare IP they go here. Nanoprog, MC, nanopool: maxed. The only conceivable skill that falls under your concerns is my 1hb to wield a pillow. Let's see, I learned 1hb at level 100 or so. So I would save the attribute-contribution of levels 101-152. That's actually not too much when it comes down to it.

So the only way my IP allocation would differ given an IP wipe would be that I'd put 20 points or so less into 1hb, a skill that is only at 140 points or so anyway, so the IP cost per raise is tiny even though it's blue.

Do you see what I mean? I'm sure it's different for everyone, but it's not a major problem. Maybe it would effect profs like soldiers more, but aren't soldiers too always wanting to raise their core combat skills? Doesnt a soldier always want a higher burst or a higher FA in the mid-to-long term?

Snarf!

[______________Othgar]

Originally posted by Lucid Flow



That is true, you are right. I had forgoten that Base Abilities dont account for your natural cap.

But that is only half the problems for skills you want to max every level. What about things such as pillows that you never plan on upgrading? There are many skills that have no purpose for in maxing. Things such as Flingshot, Burst, Full Auto that are generally used only for equiping. What if you don't NEED max of anything to equip a level 200 item? While many high level players max them anyway, what if you didn't need to? My point is simply that there would be a lot more IP saved not just from bad skill choices but because of players who understand how the system works and know how to abuse it. It will be abused.

My point is it's not clear cut. There has only been one skill color change in recent history and that's not reason for a full utter IP wipe, just an IP wipe of an Advents Multi-Weild skill.

Nerfs to other items have never been so drastic as to warrant the IP spent useless. Name 1.

Besides, no game in history has every allowed this, and Funcom would be blind and stupid to allow it. But hey, if they do, what is stopping me from legally gaining more IP then I should? Nothing, it's all legal when they give people chances like this.

I wish I could agree with you Lucid but sadly I dont. The pillow nerf devastated my NT since I blew enough IP to equip QL150 Pillows in Blue Skills. Something I would have never done if I had known what was to happen.

If you couple that with the recent nerfs to range you get the formula (My NT = Big Gimp)

[___________Atrocious]

First of I'd just like to say that discussing this is a moot point since Funcom would never implement it.

That fact aside, snarf is actually correct in how they skills are calculated. In the early days of AO I tried my hand at writing a program to simulate how you could allocate IPs at various lvls etc. It worked fairly well. Granted I didn't come up with the formulas(someone else did that, and if I dig around my inbox I can actually produce a name).

One thing that I did notice when I did that was that you save a few IP to raise skill in large increments due to the fact that IP cost is calulated using floats and then converted to ints. You can see this by shift-left clicking on skills and you see the cost to increase is given with one or two decimals.

So for all you nay sayers, that was another argument for ya. Someone at lvl 100 who wipes his IP will most likely get an additional 1-2k IPs back just from rounding floats to ints.

Lucid and zeroframerate(?) is also correct that some very high lvl players would be able to save a few ips since the base abilities would be higher and therefore some skills wouldn't be needed to be raised as much. Who cares? They seem to have enough IPs as is. So I don't think an additional 20k ips for a lvl 100+ char would make that much difference?

To sum up some arguments for allowing an IP wipe:

1. Your fist char is bound to be a gimp, maybe even your second char. It would be nice to be able to change those gimps you spent so much time with and actually make something of them, instead of just rerolling and deleting. This is a big issue for those of us that are casual gamers.

2. I have heard(altho unconfirmed, but since Funcom is prone to messing up I choose to believe them) that some people have lost ips due to server crashes. The one case I heard of that was very specific was a guy who lvl, and then died and the server crashed. He camed back with no ips when the server came back, and yes his lvl was still correct.

3. IP rings were removed from the game, and gave a few lucky ones who had them and lvled fast an unfair advantage. This would only have an effect if IP wipe was mandatory.

4. Funcom has chanced the IP cost for various professions and skills. (Side note: Wasn't enforcer treatment and first aid dark blue when the game came out????)

5. Treatment fix. Time to level the playing field by having all those who exploited this to take out their implants. Most of these people aren't lvling anymore so they are out there causing serious unbalance to the PvP game. This would only have an effect if IP wipe was mandatory.

How should funcom do this with minimal chance of a f... up?

Well, it has to be a permanent feature so that future AOers have a chance to mess up and correct their errors.

Make a machine in all the shops, or maybe one per side of the conflict. The player has to unequip everything before clicking the box and resetting IP(and I mean everything, even clothes and sunglasses even tho these do not require skill.) If everything is not unequipped then sorry no effect. If everything was unequipped voila back to square one and a huge lump of IPs.

I personally don't see any point in making any special rule for how often you can do this, as those that are already power lvling or ubertwinking, will always have the time/money or other resources to do this anyway. So to not punish new/casual gamers I would let it be free and unlimited use.

[________Billy Talent]

IP wipe is useless at least for me. Here is my main reason:

Currently lvl 154

- Maxed out all nano skills (MC, T&S, etc)
- Maxed Int
- Maxed Psy
- Maxed Stam
- Maxed Body Dev
- Maxed Nano Pool
- Maxed Nano Init
- Maxed Nano Res
- Maxed Nano Programming
- Run Speed 10 clicks from max (stopped maxing it at lvl 152)

- First Aid - enough to heal with ql 125 (622 heal I believe)
Superior stores don't sell higher qls so no need to ever sink more ip into this skill. So even though this skill is not maxed, for my purposes it is.

- Treatment 720 with treatment machine, general buff, and omni med suit (800 with doc buff)
- Computer Literacy 550+
- Pistol 590
- and small amounts of IP spread to a plethora of skills in melee and ranged

And what am I left with? Roughly 10,000 ip (killed 30,000 last night in treatment)

So I really see no need for a IP wipe. You get PLENTY!

[nipsnaps]

Yes Vegan, eventually you get plenty.

Many of casual gamers will quit the game before that "eventually" comes along though. And one very good reason for those quittings are the "feel gimped, not fun, no way to fix... leave game".

Permanent feature for IP reallocation. That's my view.

Ever wonder why on all games that have set statistics you can't change, there is ALWAYS a HUGE discussion about reallocation possibilities.

DAoC also has limited points to spend on skills. And also there, very many are asking for some way, even if arduous, to change their skills.

Mistakes schmistakes, what on earth happened to fun?

[_______________Snarf]

exactly ewert,

You'd think that if allowing it would help them keep many customers interested in the game and therefore give them a whole bunch more money that they'd do something.

I guess Funcom doesnt want to make money

Snarf

[______________Xombie]

He's referencing other games that do give IP-equivalent earned points to attribute to skills like EverQuest.

AND Fallout 1/2/Tactics, Arcanum, Icewind Dale, Baulder's Gate, Diablo 1/2, Etc.
Hell, even freaking GHOST RECON doesn't let you get points back.

This is because it is the risk of the game. Every point you spend is a risk. In MMORPG's with the same system, it is an even bigger risk, since they are in constant change and evolution.
And, just as in evolution, you must ADAPT. You should have enough IP's left over to adapt. If not, then it is the consequences of the risk.

But the question still remains....
Why would Anarchy Online break that mold, when that mold simply tends to make the game more challenging?

[_______zeroframerate]

Originally posted by ewert
I'll start off by saying zero is NOT saying that the little IP savings of like elec engineering, zero is saying (WHICH IS NOT CORRECT) that since a lvl200 could raise their stats first to gain 100+ base skills, it would cost less for him because of said base skill. Which, as said by anyone who knows squat about the skill system, is not correct.

Actually, that's not what I'm saying at all.

First off, let me concede the fact that I was wrong about my thinking in that the stats didn't have to do with deriving the base value for skills. After further testing, it's clear they do have an impact.

Secondly, just to make it clear, I am not advocating an IP-Wipe as I think it's a poor idea considering higher level PCs will benefit much more than lower level ones considering the reduction in IP expenditure.

The level 200 could re-spend points mostly into attributes therefore raising the base level in which the skill bonus gets purchase from. When you spend IP, you're not actually purchasing a higher skill, you're purchasing a higher bonus to skill.

If the base is higher than what you normally have to work with, doesn't it stand to reason that since you're dealing with a higher starting number, the actual total cost of raising a skill to the same level will be reduced?

Simple math, folks. If it costs you 50 cents for each candybar you purchase and you start with zero candybars, it's going to cost you 5 dollars to get 10 candybars. However, if your loving grandfather starts you off with 5 candybars, it's only going to cost you $2.50 to reach 10.

That's all that I'm saying.

[______________Othgar]

Originally posted by Xombie

AND Fallout 1/2/Tactics, Arcanum, Icewind Dale, Baulder's Gate, Diablo 1/2, Etc.
Hell, even freaking GHOST RECON doesn't let you get points back.

This is because it is the risk of the game. Every point you spend is a risk. In MMORPG's with the same system, it is an even bigger risk, since they are in constant change and evolution.
And, just as in evolution, you must ADAPT. You should have enough IP's left over to adapt. If not, then it is the consequences of the risk.

But the question still remains....
Why would Anarchy Online break that mold, when that mold simply tends to make the game more challenging?

Interesting points Xombie... I would have to agree with you but when Funcom decides to change the requirements and benefits on items that you spent your hard earned IP in certain skills to be able to use then thats not a risk you decided to take but a consequence of an action you had no choice in. I think thats whats in question here.

For the record I'm not in favor of a total IP wipe but I am in favor of an IP wipe for the skills/atty's effected by any change to an item that a player has already invested in.

Take as an example the game Asheron's Call, there were several pieces of Armor and a Robe that were deemed too Uber for game balance and were removed from the game BUT they were not taken away from the players that had obtained them or there stats reduced in any way. I thought that was fair and no I didnt have either of them but saw no reason to take them away from people who had already earned them.

[nipsnaps]

Originally posted by zeroframerate


The level 200 could re-spend points mostly into attributes therefore raising the base level in which the skill bonus gets purchase from. When you spend IP, you're not actually purchasing a higher skill, you're purchasing a higher bonus to skill.

You take one part, but totally ignore the rest. Have you not read the reports that say things like: at 150+, you will have maxed all your crucial skills AND have tons of extra IP with nowhere important to spend them on, _STAT CAPS EXIST_, these caps vary from breed to breed from IIRC bit under 450 to was it 560 for like INT for nano and AGI for opifex. The base bonus gained from abilities is not an open ended system. I think this is what you are missing still as you think it'll help higher levels tons.

Not to ignore the fact: It costs exactly same amount of IP to get a skill value of 800 at level 150 if you raise them slowly going from 1 to 150, as it does raising it instantly at 150 with a realloc. Read again, repeat after me: exactly same IP cost! When one gets to the levels where equipment don't anymore improve (ql200 used), you are already pretty near the point of capping your abilities (no more bonus to base skill) AND the point of getting so much IP that you have no good place to put them.

And if you can't figure out what that means when comparing casual and power gamers -> casual gamers screwed since the feature of the system that will eventually balance mess-ups is at the end-game where the casual gamers won't be at! So, in a sense, you are opposing IP realloc because it might save a 150lvl person some IP he doesn't need, even at the expense that any casual gamer levels 50-100 that has been messed up by game changes has a character that feels sad for him. Char that feels sad = no fun to play = leave the game.

[nipsnaps]

Oh and if someone gets the bright idea and says that fine, I should leave then if I don't like it. Mmm, lovely business sense first of all, secondly I enjoy playing the game with my fiancee mostly because I am playing it with my fiancee... And the low levels are not bad, and because I am a numbers freak with a knack for evaluating game engines through a decade of MUD gaming, I've outlined a plan for our chars that won't waste IPs for them...

Why am I asking for a realloc option then? Well duh, I played 5+ years on a MUD that had reincarnation, it was quite easily the most important factor of me staying there in that MUD for so long, and I have absolutely definitely seriously positively no doubt that done right (which is not that hard, the outline I gave works well enough, add few hours of fine-tuning and then few weeks on test server for feedback + some weird buglike exploits that might somehow appear), an IP reallocation machine would be a single feature that could draw literally thousands of players (and I am serious, there have been tens (well, minimum 2 is multiple too ) of thousands of accounts lost from start of AO) back into trying AO out again.

As long as they fix NPC monsters having godlike amounts of AC first.. :P

[_______________Snarf]

Dont bother with zero, ewert.
He's just a clueless newbie.

Snarf

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by ewert
Not to ignore the fact: It costs exactly same amount of IP to get a skill value of 800 at level 150 if you raise them slowly going from 1 to 150, as it does raising it instantly at 150 with a realloc. Read again, repeat after me: exactly same IP cost!

No, you are ignoring this fact. Your statement is true ONLY if you max the skill to your current cap.

There is no need to cap things such as Vehicle Air, Map Navigation, Computer Literacy, Nano Programming, Treatment etc etc etc (mentioned in another post).

A LOT of these skills for most characters are light or dark blue. When you can cap your computer literacy at 876 and you only need 750 for q200 NCUs, there is no reason to pump it to 876 is there? That being said, if you pump your computer literacy to 750 gradually over the corse of the game, you will spend more IP then if you max your intelligence first at such a high level.

Starting base of 10 and starting base of over 100 is a huge difference, especially when the IP cost doesn't change from attribute created increases. This also means that you don't save IP when it costs the least, you save IP when it costs the MOST. The IP you spend spent from 660-750 is basically FREE with an IP wipe.

Now, this model doesn't work for things like Assault Rifle which you want to keep maxed at all costs. The same amount of IP is needed to max a skill from 0-max at any level.

But as i've pointed out, you don't NEED to max a lot of useful skills because there really isn't any point.

[______________Xombie]

Take as an example the game Asheron's Call, there were several pieces of Armor and a Robe that were deemed too Uber for game balance and were removed from the game BUT they were not taken away from the players that had obtained them or there stats reduced in any way.

And Funcom did the EXACT same thing with FA's. The only thing so far that has been taken away from players is the three armor types that were only attainable through exploits.

[_______zeroframerate]

Originally posted by ewert
Not to ignore the fact: It costs exactly same amount of IP to get a skill value of 800 at level 150 if you raise them slowly going from 1 to 150, as it does raising it instantly at 150 with a realloc. Read again, repeat after me: exactly same IP cost!

It isn't the exact same IP cost actually, if you bother to actually look at the numbers instead of just continually ignoring what I'm actually saying.

ewert, pay very close attention please. You're not bothering to understand anything that I'm saying and just making things up now.

Here we go, ready? I'll go slow for you.

Okay, step 1: We'll take the person that's at level 200 that never had a chance at IP reallocation. Let's say early on in the game they spent a total of 100,000IP on some skill to raise it to a particular level.

With me so far? They've spent 100,000IP. Write that down, there's a quiz later.

QUIZ: how many IP has the person spent on the skill? Did you answer 100,000? Good boy.

At this point it is crucial to note that since the level 200 has increased their attributes beyond what they originally had when they spent 100,000IP on the skill and the skill now is beyond what the originally spent the 100,000IP to get it up to.

If you agree that raising your attribute points raises your skills, then you're with me so far.

And now let's say a different level 200 person gets a chance at reallocation.

STEP 1: They increase their attributes and lo and behold they don't have to spend anything or significantly less because their attributes we're raised to a point where the amount they have to spend on the skill to reach the same level is reduced!

Did you follow that? Do you understand why they won't do a reallocation ever? The person that gets to reallocate will have a distinct IP edge over those that didn't, ESPECIALLY when it comes to future changes to skill costs.

Here's the thing that I think you're stuck on: It costs the exact same amount of IP to go from 100 to 125 as it does to go to 10 to 35 in a skill.

That is true. I have never disagreed with that, which is what you seem fixated on.

What you don't understand is that when you spend IP (and it's also the same reason the actual IP cost is the same) is that you're spending IP on a bonus to the skill and not the actual skill. Whether you spend 100,000 now for +50 to a skill or 100,000 later for a +50 to a skill does not matter.

What matters is this: since you've had the chance to reallocate IP differently, you're going to raise your stats first before you dedicate IP to skills. At this point you don't need to spend as much IP to purchase a skill up to a particular level because you've done most of the work already by spending in attributes!

The short of it is: there's never going to be a one-time reallocation. Either it's going to be always available or never.

[Megabio]

Yep, Zero. You are exactly right..

Err.. not really.

Let's think.

They are gonna save an AMAZING 100k IP in the long run.. WOW, 100K IP is a MAJOR advantage. Not when you get nearly 80k per level. It is more than worth it to get rid of the people with not 100k Extra IP, but 10 million extra IP from mass duping IP Rings.
~Chris

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by zeroframerate


It isn't the exact same IP cost actually, if you bother to actually look at the numbers instead of just continually ignoring what I'm actually saying.

ewert, pay very close attention please. You're not bothering to understand anything that I'm saying and just making things up now.

Here we go, ready? I'll go slow for you.

Okay, step 1: We'll take the person that's at level 200 that never had a chance at IP reallocation. Let's say early on in the game they spent a total of 100,000IP on some skill to raise it to a particular level.

With me so far? They've spent 100,000IP. Write that down, there's a quiz later.

QUIZ: how many IP has the person spent on the skill? Did you answer 100,000? Good boy.

At this point it is crucial to note that since the level 200 has increased their attributes beyond what they originally had when they spent 100,000IP on the skill and the skill now is beyond what the originally spent the 100,000IP to get it up to.

If you agree that raising your attribute points raises your skills, then you're with me so far.

And now let's say a different level 200 person gets a chance at reallocation.

STEP 1: They increase their attributes and lo and behold they don't have to spend anything or significantly less because their attributes we're raised to a point where the amount they have to spend on the skill to reach the same level is reduced!

Did you follow that? Do you understand why they won't do a reallocation ever? The person that gets to reallocate will have a distinct IP edge over those that didn't, ESPECIALLY when it comes to future changes to skill costs.

Here's the thing that I think you're stuck on: It costs the exact same amount of IP to go from 100 to 125 as it does to go to 10 to 35 in a skill.

That is true. I have never disagreed with that, which is what you seem fixated on.

What you don't understand is that when you spend IP (and it's also the same reason the actual IP cost is the same) is that you're spending IP on a bonus to the skill and not the actual skill. Whether you spend 100,000 now for +50 to a skill or 100,000 later for a +50 to a skill does not matter.

What matters is this: since you've had the chance to reallocate IP differently, you're going to raise your stats first before you dedicate IP to skills. At this point you don't need to spend as much IP to purchase a skill up to a particular level because you've done most of the work already by spending in attributes!

The short of it is: there's never going to be a one-time reallocation. Either it's going to be always available or never.

Zero, you are mistaken. It costs the same IP to max a skill at any given level.

Create a level 1 character. Level that character ONCE without raising IP. Raise your Computer literacy skill to the max for level 2 only giving enough to Intelligence for it to say "Can Only be raied X points per level" and no "Base Abilities too low." Write down the IP cost without pressing accept. Move your computer litereracy back to it's base (removing all IP you would have spent) and now raise your intelligence to max.

Same IP cost because you max the skill. The problem with IP Wiping is where theres no need to max the skill.

[_______zeroframerate]

Originally posted by Megabio
Yep, Zero. You are exactly right..

Err.. not really.

Let's think.

They are gonna save an AMAZING 100k IP in the long run.. WOW, 100K IP is a MAJOR advantage. Not when you get nearly 80k per level. It is more than worth it to get rid of the people with not 100k Extra IP, but 10 million extra IP from mass duping IP Rings.
~Chris

Twas merely an example. Everyone's too eager to jump and holler in this thread instead of accepting the example for what it is ... an example. Tack on another zero if it makes you feel better, the example's all the same.

[_______zeroframerate]

Originally posted by Lucid Flow
Zero, you are mistaken. It costs the same IP to max a skill at any given level.

Create a level 1 character. Level that character ONCE without raising IP. Raise your Computer literacy skill to the max for level 2 only giving enough to Intelligence for it to say "Can Only be raied X points per level" and no "Base Abilities too low." Write down the IP cost without pressing accept. Move your computer litereracy back to it's base (removing all IP you would have spent) and now raise your intelligence to max.

Same IP cost because you max the skill. The problem with IP Wiping is where theres no need to max the skill.

Au contraire, that only works IF the color of Intelligence (and I believe Computer Literacy has more than one dependancy) is the same as Computer Literacy. It will not work out equally if they are of differing colors.

And besides, the IP-Wipe won't benefit low level characters whatsoever (as I have maintained since the beginngin), so this side discussion is moot honestly.

[Megabio]

Originally posted by zeroframerate


Au contraire, that only works IF the color of Intelligence (and I believe Computer Literacy has more than one dependancy) is the same as Computer Literacy. It will not work out equally if they are of differing colors.

And besides, the IP-Wipe won't benefit low level characters whatsoever (as I have maintained since the beginngin), so this side discussion is moot honestly.

*giggles* *chuckles* *giggles*