Why?

[-Zagadka-]

Hm, intriguing... but the Neutrals lack any form of self-government entirely, and many of them wouldn't intervene in a Clan/OT scuffle. Also, I think that OT would reject any form of higher government than them on the basis that they "own" Rubi-Ka.

However, it does outline something the Clans need within themselves. Our government is pretty weak, and won't stand after the lease expires and RK becomes a free-for-all.

It also points out the main weakness of neutrals; Lack of government. This hurts them in more ways than just dealing with the other two sides. They have no voice. They have no organized defense, outside of the Clans and Omni-Tek (depending on circumstance).

[Cyani]

Most Neutral's, myself included cringe at the thought of being labeled a Faction......

Neutrals in a mediator type role is intriguing as there are many Neutrals who are fond of politics......the ICC though they claim to be impartial could easily be swayed by Omni-Tek's deep pockets.........

As far as Neutrals lack of Government being a downfall I would have to disagree....

Neutrals are a self governing group and I think it is a godsend...

We do not suffer the problems with criminals and extremist that plagues both Omni and Clan governmental structures.....

Though many Neutrals share different views, ideals and beliefs we are a very tight knit community and put those differences aside when dealing with adversity.

Constantly we have to deal with two Factions who often express hostility towards us and we have managed to persevere against overwhelming odds....

In fact it is nice that some Clans and Omni fear for our well being...

Though I feel as a Neutral, we would prefer Clans and Omni disregard us and concentrate on settling their own differences in order to achieve a peaceful Rubi-Ka....

[Ensignm]

Originally posted by Vrach


What Omni-Tek provides is stability and protection.

Somehow the words "Omni-Tek" and "stability and protection" in the same sentence cause me to feel more then a little uncomfortable.Omni-Tek divisions regularly attack our cities without provocation. Omni-AF has attacked the free city of Camelot on more then one occasion ,all that with the sole purpose of creating chaos and killing innocent Clansmen. If that is the kind of stability and protection Omni-Tek has to offer I'd rather do without their "protection" and ask the local crimeboss for "protection" it will cost me alot but at least it won't cost me my life.

Originally posted by Vrach

The Clans are hardly organized enough to maintain the terraforming in the Perpetual Wastes, Mort, Wailing Wastes, and Avalon. Hell, we aren't even organized enough to ship notum. I think that any independent move by the Clans to do this would result in internal fighting. We simply aren't a united force, and have a very weak central power structure that could never cope with that kind of challenge.

Whoah where should I start...

1) why do we need to terraform every square centimeter of Rubi-Ka?

2) Why do you say the clans unable to terraform or ship notum? If we can sell the notum we can buy all the technology we need to do these tasks, ourselves.We have the brains the only thing we might lack is the means. This in no way makes us incapable of doing this ourselves. You are greatly underestimating your fellow clansmen. OT did that once they have paid dearly for that mistake.

3) Again, we aren't a united force (yet...). But the GVRK is on of the main clans causing the lack of unity by their jump-the-gun-war-frenzy. I'm glad to hear you came to the conclusion that that's not the right way, but the damage is already done. We need to unite and many clans have tried very hard to unite the clans once more. the GVRK's and UF's actions haven't made our job any easier

GVRK has changed its political tone a great deal - made it more mature and refined, directed it, as opposed to blindly going along and fighting Omni at every turn. We still have a lot of issues regarding this, and we are still very much, as a whole, opposed to Omni and more than willing to fight them when the situation demands it. It is something I am trying to work on. I myself am willing to help fight against Omni, provided the fight is not blind.

I *think* I'm glad to hear this, tho I'm unsure as to whether GVRK is still at war with Omni-Tek and I don't know how this will work out, out there on Rubi-Ka. For now I read this statement as "We made a wrong call,we're trying to get back on to the right track. And we're ready to help the clans unite!". If so my reply would be "We would welcome your input, let's talk."

[Altared]

OK I've heard many of these arguments before, in one form or another. I am not going to defend my decision to remain Neutral in this conflict. I am simply going to state some reasons why a neutral stance may have been chosen, and my personal views on what this 'conflict' throws our way.

Mercenaries. By this I don't simply mean hired guns, but anybody who plays both sides for gain. This can be in the form of trade, intelligence, etc. Many people want wealth and possesions, I do not hold it against them.

Non-violence. Though the world of Rubi Ka is a violent place, even without the conflict, some have no wish to take part in a war. They will fight to defend themselves but do not wish to participate in violence for the gain of themselves or others.

Nomads. I call them this for want of a better word. These people simply wish to wander, without any master, where they wish, when they wish. Maybe these people would have done as the clans have, if Omni-Tek had total control over the peoples of this world.

These are just a few of the reasons that people may opt to remain neutral. In all honesty, if you asked 100 neutrals why they do not chose a side you will receive 100 different answers in all probability.

I object to being called 'fence sitter' or 'undecided'. Am I to be detested because I will neither throw my arms around you in welcome nor attempt to seperate your head from your body in malice?

Your attacks on us verbally and, sadly, physically, do not entice us to 'choose' a side. If anything the result is that we hold even tighter to our neutrality.

I have been called coward, strange that I am the 'coward' because I can only attack in self defence.

That I have suffered these attacks from both sides drives me further from either. Those people who respect my decision to be Neutral have, in turn, earned my respect.

We people who choose to be Neutral have, in a way, what both sides want. We have the freedom that the clans strive for. We have the peace that Omni-Tek desires.

These are simply my thoughts, I do not claim to represent anyone but myself. A lot of people will probably disagree with me, Neutrals among them.

Max 'Alteredstate' Marsalis, RK1

[-Zagadka-]

Originally posted by Ensign M
Somehow the words "Omni-Tek" and "stability and protection" in the same sentence cause me to feel more then a little uncomfortable.

By stability and protection, I mean from outside sources, not planetary.

1) why do we need to terraform every square centimeter of Rubi-Ka?

Not quite to continue the terraforming, but to complete it. Should those terraformers go offline, the wastelands will continue to expand, and the northern territories deteriorate. Additionally, they would fall into regional hands, creating several small fortress-states, probably run by companies, to mine notum.

2) Why do you say the clans unable to terraform or ship notum? If we can sell the notum we can buy all the technology we need to do these tasks, ourselves.We have the brains the only thing we might lack is the means. This in no way makes us incapable of doing this ourselves. You are greatly underestimating your fellow clansmen. OT did that once they have paid dearly for that mistake.

Not quite. The Clans do mine and ship notum - via Omni-Tek. That is where our money comes from. Any outside source would put us in the pocket of some other company, who would exert their force and become another OT.

Hell, there have always been problems in space with independent shippers - and even Omni shippers - being victims of what amounts to piracy.

I have faith in Clan members as individuals, but not as groups. This has been demonstrated time and time again. We are incoherent, disorganized, and any effort to go into this business, I feel, would result in local war between factions and land ownership.

3) Again, we aren't a united force (yet...). But the GVRK is on of the main clans causing the lack of unity by their jump-the-gun-war-frenzy. I'm glad to hear you came to the conclusion that that's not the right way, but the damage is already done. We need to unite and many clans have tried very hard to unite the clans once more. the GVRK's and UF's actions haven't made our job any easier

What has GVRK done to further the "war" on Omni-Tek?

Granted, we did make the move to declare war. In my view, that is simply a return to the pre-Amnesty status quo. GVRK has done nothing to act on it - that declaration was a warning that we will consider military action.

Since that time, as I mentioned, GVRK has only been involved in localized, goal-oriented strikes, and has distanced itself from other warring factions. We have absolutely nothing to do with UF, and have taken part in none of their operations.

I *think* I'm glad to hear this, tho I'm unsure as to whether GVRK is still at war with Omni-Tek and I don't know how this will work out, out there on Rubi-Ka. For now I read this statement as "We made a wrong call,we're trying to get back on to the right track. And we're ready to help the clans unite!". If so my reply would be "We would welcome your input, let's talk."

Who is "we"? The Clans are so disorganized that there is rarely a consensus... only loosely organized groups and factions with vague goals. Who are we uniting with? What is that agenda?

GVRK is indeed at "war" with Omni. We will intervene when necessary to protect freedom and do what we feel is right. We will NOT engage in blind assaults on Omni guards, cities, and citizens, nor will we tolerate terrorism.

[-Zagadka-]

Originally posted by One-eye
[reference]

Sadly, you are right... though I do disagree with the "peace that Omni wants" bit.

One thing the Clans don't seem to realize is that their fight is not for THEMSELVES. A Clanner should never repress a neutral. Neutrality is, indeed, the very thing we are supposed to be protecting. We shouldn't be making anyone choose any side, and even more unfortunately, the more aggressive Clan members sully our name by implicating themselves in terrorism and harassing the Neutrals.

[____________Ironheel]

I's can kinda sees yer point Vrach, but not really by wantin everyones ta be neutral type peoples. Even without Omni Rubi-ka be dangerous type place and it help to have friends, that what a clan be for. Anyways I gotta same some stuff ta what One Eye said.

I no like Neutrals, really a lot no like. I got friends that did fight and die, some even perma die so that Omni Tech no make everyone be slaves, and what do the Neutral type peoples do? They say "Thanks fer dyin fer us, now we is gonna go have fun and leave you guys to keep fightin, and bleedin, and dyin why we do whatever we want to do. Please keep Omni from enslavin us! Later!". That make I really angry. I work hards ta keep the Omni types from doin big bad type stuff to peoples who no deserve ta have big bad type stuff done ta them, and all the no good Neutral types do is get benefits of I and I friends sheddin our blood.

Anyways that why I no like Neutrals, ta I they is just Clanners that no be willing to fight fer what right, they just wanna sit back and enjoy while others fight.

[Ensignm]

Originally posted by Vrach

Not quite to continue the terraforming, but to complete it. Should those terraformers go offline, the wastelands will continue to expand, and the northern territories deteriorate. Additionally, they would fall into regional hands, creating several small fortress-states, probably run by companies, to mine notum.

What makes you think they will go offline. As I said earlier the clans can with the right machines terraform just as well as OT can.

Originally posted by Vrach

Granted, we did make the move to declare war. In my view, that is simply a return to the pre-Amnesty status quo. GVRK has done nothing to act on it - that declaration was a warning that we will consider military action.

Since that time, as I mentioned, GVRK has only been involved in localized, goal-oriented strikes, and has distanced itself from other warring factions. We have absolutely nothing to do with UF, and have taken part in none of their operations.

War (M): armed conflict, battle.

I think you either miss the point of being at war or the GVRK is all talk and no walk. You declare war when you want to wipe out your enemy. When you want to consider militairy action you should consider declaring war, not declaring war.

Originally posted by Vrach

Who is "we"? The Clans are so disorganized that there is rarely a consensus... only loosely organized groups and factions with vague goals. Who are we uniting with? What is that agenda?

GVRK is indeed at "war" with Omni. We will intervene when necessary to protect freedom and do what we feel is right. We will NOT engage in blind assaults on Omni guards, cities, and citizens, nor will we tolerate terrorism.

I keep saying this, by declaring war the GVRK caused that lack of unity. You went behind the CoT's back. By that action GVRK implied they lost faith in the CoT and the GVRK split the clans.Not others the GVRK did that!

You seem to be in a morale dillema. On the one hand you as a person want peace. On the other hand your clan, the GVRK, doesn't want to change the current situation. That causes you, as officer of the GVRK, in a morale dillema.

If I'm wrong, which I sincerly hope, your initial post should have read:" The GVRK made a wrong call declaring war on OT. The GVRK wants to make a new start. Let's all try and unite the clans and obey the Tir accord." This way, we would have been able to work on the united clans again and this upholds the status quo you want.

For now, I see alot of talk and no action.
For now, I see you setting double standards one for the GVRK and one for the other clans.
For now, I see you shifting the blame on other clans.
For now.
Prove me wrong, and accept my invitation for talks on a united clan.
Prove me wrong, and take action!

[Altared]

Originally posted by Vrach


Sadly, you are right... though I do disagree with the "peace that Omni wants" bit.

By the "We have the peace that Omni-Tek desires." comment I mean that :- Omni Tek wishes an 'end to the conflict' so they can get back to business.....this is what I meant by peace. Though our version of peace and theirs does differ.

Max 'Alteredstae' Marsalis RK1

[Altared]

I will not use the sidestepping argument that ' No one asked you to' that is simply avoiding the subject.

You took up arms because you felt there was no other choice. I can respect anyone who is willing to fight for their beliefs. I will not respect someone who believes they are 'better' than Omni Tek, when they have a similar contempt for a people, namely those of a neutral standing.

In all honesty, I came close to joining the clans struggle. A large number of Omni personnel I met attacked me without provocation. My contempt for Omni Tek grew, fuelled by my anger. Unfortunately for the clans, some would say fortunately , these thoughts of joining them were stifled when I was attacked at a Shop terminal in The Rhino Cockpit in Newland, by a number of clan members. Their reasons? I wouldn't choose a side, therefore if I wasn't with them I was against them.

The result? A contempt for anyone (Omni or Clan) who attacks with so little thought to what they fight for.

So Ironheel you have friends who have died for me to enjoy my freedom. I have friends who have died for no other reason than that they were 'enjoying' their freedom. Freedom seems a strange concept for you, you fight for it, yet you seem not to understand it. Freedom is the right to choose, because I choose not to 'Pick a side' I should be denied this freedom?

I bear you no ill will or malice Ironheel, afterall you have the 'freedom' to choose your friends Ironheel.....as do I.

Max 'Alteredstate'Marsalis RK1

[___________burrowowl]

I'll leave my politics out of this. I would just like to state a few facts that apparently have been forgotten by many of the participants in this coversation:

The existance of popuations of neutrals is a new thing. The clan rebellions started long before Newland, Borealis, Home, or other neutral population centers were created.

Omni-tek terraformed Rubi-ka. In a way, our homes are all made by Omni-tek, whether those homes are apartments in Omni-1, a shack outside of Last Ditch, or in a backyard in Tir. Rubi-ka is habitable due to an investment of effort and capital and technology by Omni-tek.

Omni-tek scientists created the insurance system.

The Clans were funded and provisioned by the Sol Banking corporation during recent conflicts with Omni-Tek. The politics of Rubi-ka do not exist in a vacuum. There is more at play than OT and the CoT.

The present placement of suppression gas emitters is highly advantageous for Clanners as demonstrated by frequent incursions into OT outposts.

The Clans were founded by Omni-tek miners and laborers who chaffed at their abysmal treatment. The response to attempts to file grievance or unionize was violence on the part of Omni-tek.

Present ICC regulations grant Omni-tek complete control over the export of Notum from Rubi-ka to the rest of humanity. Any notum shipments from Clanners is contraband.

For confirmation purposes, please see the timeline. Read your history books, kiddies, or be doomed to repeat.

[-Zagadka-]

Originally posted by Ironheel
I no like Neutrals, really a lot no like. I got friends that did fight and die, some even perma die so that Omni Tech no make everyone be slaves, and what do the Neutral type peoples do? They say "Thanks fer dyin fer us, now we is gonna go have fun and leave you guys to keep fightin, and bleedin, and dyin why we do whatever we want to do. Please keep Omni from enslavin us! Later!". That make I really angry.

Understandable. But the Clans fight for freedom for all, so people can decide to do what they want. Like the volunteers for ARK, some people choose to fight for that. Some choose to go on with their own lives.

[-Zagadka-]

Originally posted by Ensign M
What makes you think they will go offline. As I said earlier the clans can with the right machines terraform just as well as OT can.

As I said, I have faith in our individual capabilities. I do not have faith in our political stability and ability to avoid all out war with everyone. I mean, hell, say Omni is kicked off planet. Who takes over? Well, whoever does, they will face the same people who helped kick Omni off, and they will use the same tactics.

I think you either miss the point of being at war or the GVRK is all talk and no walk. You declare war when you want to wipe out your enemy. When you want to consider militairy action you should consider declaring war, not declaring war.

The Clans are, by definition, at almost perpetual war with Omni-Tek.We act where necessary, and we act with force - but we have not seen or had the opportunity to stop Omni from doing some things, because of things like gas zones and the like.

Should Omni cross a line, we will fight them, without going through declaring war.

Anyway, that declaration is really something that I am trying to work around, rather than with. I don't support it. I think it is what the Clans should be doing all the time - not actively trying to subvert Omni, but to be their watch dogs.

For now, I see alot of talk and no action.
For now, I see you setting double standards one for the GVRK and one for the other clans.
For now, I see you shifting the blame on other clans.
For now.
Prove me wrong, and accept my invitation for talks on a united clan.
Prove me wrong, and take action!

What action would you have us take? We operate as I outlined: to right wrongs and intervene where necessary, without disrupting the overall position of anyone. We've been involved in 4 actions in 3 weeks, each one having a series of defined goals, not "war" on Omni.

In any case, it is not my position to make policy and agreements for GVRK. I merely organize our actions and mobilization. You would have to meet with Blyand and Solarax in order to forge any official statement.

[-Zagadka-]

Originally posted by One-eye
The result? A contempt for anyone (Omni or Clan) who attacks with so little thought to what they fight for.

This is the feeling we need to support... unfortunately, it isn't shared by many people.

[-Zagadka-]

Originally posted by burrowowl
[reference]

Quite, which is what I mean by "we need Omni." They are a corporation that has built everything we have - but they are so powerful, that they have gotten away with a lot. The presence of the Clans, in the spirit of the original miners seeking a simple labor union and better treatment, should be to watch Omni-Tek and protect the citizens of Rubi-Ka from whatever overbearing steps it or any other faction may make. The purpose of the Clans is not, and never was, to wipe Omni-Tek from the planet (excepting the period when Sol used the Clans as a puppet army).

[____________Ironheel]

I thinks that lots of people be nervous, that be why they attack peoples that not be friends for sure. Many peoples like me feel that even though there be peace right now that war gonna happen no matter what. I met lots of neutrals in I time that say they neutral so they can spy on both sides and work fer whoever pay more. Cause of people like them I no trust neutrals. That why you get killed. It do be "With us or against us" cause if not Omni gonna fer sure use neutrals as spies and then we all gonna be slaves again.

I no think you needs ta die but I no gonna trust you and no got respect fer peoples that let other peoples fight fer their freedom and refuse ta help those that do.

That just I feelings.

[-Zagadka-]

Originally posted by Ironheel
[reference]

That is a loop... the more people who feel that way, the more often it is used as an excuse for bad things.

Some people from everywhere are out to get you - but most are not.

[____________Enerbias]

Originally posted by Ironheel
I met lots of neutrals in I time that say they neutral so they can spy on both sides and work fer whoever pay more. Cause of people like them I no trust neutrals.

Very Interesting Ironheel. Funnily enough I've met lots of Omni and Clan. I've had responses from both that indicate the reason they are what they are is because they have already tried the other and didn't like it. In fact, on at least one occasion, I have met someone who has changed sides several times, and still they continue to fight each other. Where is the sense in that?

It's people like them that cause me to trust being Nuetral. You know where you are with a Nuet.

[____________Ironheel]

Vrach> How you know which is which until to late?

Enerbias> Hmmm I never met no peoples like that, maybies I gotta get outs more. I not be liken people who change sides, we need to have a way so that it can be seen if peoples have changed sides a buncha times, cause I no would be trustin the traitor type people.

[-Zagadka-]

Ironheel, it isn't easy. I base my positions on history, actions, and logic. Omni-Tek, for whatever they do, are still a large corporation who has to follow rules. The Clans need to remember this as much as Omni does. I'm sorry, it may be difficult for an Atrox such as yourself to follow all the way, but thank you for trying.

And yes, I have seen several people who swap sides, and neutrals who prey on both. There are mercenaries everywhere... it is a sad state, and very few people can be trusted. There are Clanners and Omnis who act outside of the interests of their side, and neutrals who abuse their anarchy and freedom.