The Desperate Act

[darkthought]

Originally posted by Rubel


I'm sorry, but it's plain that you don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about. Using as crude and outdated technologies as a fission charge to trigger a fusion explosion may have been the only possible way when these weapons were first introduced almost 30 thousand years ago, but the technological development since then has left us with a vast amount of non-radioactive options for producing energy in sufficient quantity to trigger a fusion explosion.

The most commonly known energy source for such a trigger would be anti-matter, but there are other alternatives as well. And rest assured that there would be no radioactive fallout after a fusion explosion triggered by such an alternate source of energy.

(( Please take the technological backstory and source material of AO into consideration before making absolute IC statements about how something *has to* work a certain way, based purely on knowledge of contemporary technologies. ))

((OOC same to you. and read the above posts. He said, in the first post, a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE. Antimatter isn't a nuclear fuel. It's antimatter fuel. Not to mention that antimatter is waay more energetic when combined with regular matter, which this world is made of. Current (talking nowadays) theory's state that you can use antimatter to fuel a starship, but the engine exaust would vaporize the Earth. And don't be an ass when posting OOC. ))

[darkthought]

Originally posted by Trisagiona


Hmm since when did Omni-Tek really care about the biosphere? It's barely good enough to contain life on this planet. It could be fixed but OT can't find the initiative to do anything about it. Oh they did some minor modifications to the weather control system. It only killed all marine life but that does not harm anyone right?

My bet is that OT didn't bomb Tir during the civil war in fear of what the ICC might think about it. And the cost of course.
Call me a cynic but I doubt there was compassion for living organisms that stayed their hand...

Since when? Since we spent billions creating the biosphere that we all live in. Since it would have set Omni-Tek billions of credits to have to rebuild Omni-1, Omni-2, and restart the terraforming from scratch.

-Darkthought
Member of Omni-Mining

[Aazamon]

To clear things up, I stated before that it was a thermonuclear device that would produce radiation and no there was no antimater as that would have been too powerful. Although just because a device uses radiation does not mean that it is so destructive as to make life unliveable. This device is much less destructive than the ones used by the Omega 30,000 years ago to try to wipe out all other human life. We used a device that used a tiny fission reaction to create a fusion reaction and it was the size of a briefcase. I would love to go into more detail but that would possibly endanger our suplier.

[Swiftmind]

The point is that the NLF wanted to use a nuclear device. This is an un-needed and dangerous tool in their hands. Regardless how big the explosion is theoretically it will create unwanted conditions for all. By conditions I mean environmentally, socially, and politically. Environmentally, Clon**** would be gone, or the wildlife would be greatly harmed by the blast itself and radiation. Socially for then everyone would be against the NLF for taking such drastic measures…but many don’t like their past actions anyway.

Then of course there is the political issue on this. This is a complex issue. Do members of the Borealis Pact really think they will stop Notum Mining? If you were successful, do you think Omni-Tek would just say, Oh well the base is gone lets stop. The obvious and sane answer is they would not. Omni-Tek would rebuild the exportation facility. Also if this blast occurred, I would fear for Borealis itself. This is not a threat. But just think, Borealis Pact resides in Borealis. If such an attack was successfully taken out, do you think Omni-Prime would let Borealis stand as it is now. No they would not. Omni-AF would be in Borealis with in hours if this blast occurred. But I guess the Borealis Pact does not take this into account.

I also do not trust their calculations personally.

No matter how big a blast is, what math is done this is dangerous technology for them to have in their reach. Who ever is this supplier, he/she must be getting a lot of money or just doesn’t care for he/she doesn’t know what he/she is helping to create.

About the life comment made by the member of Desert Winds…I must ask, what are you talking about? We are living fine on this planet yes? The trees grow, the leets run, flowers bloom, how is it barely enough to contain life? Yes there are wastelands or the deserts in other words, but many planets have deserts. I think you overstretched your statement.

(( OOC Comments:

Look I know we are enemies IC but OOC we are not and respect must be maintained. Actually respect must be maintained IC and OOC….at all times basically.

We are not all fully informed on the long time-line and background stories Funcom has created. Thus no one should criticize another if they are not informed about a certain event or way something happened. The better way would tell them about it OOC or have them look up where you discovered this info. We must also remember we are not in the year 29477….unfortunately hehe.

We are not all nuclear scientists. I don’t know how nuclear bombs work myself. I rather not have this get into a debate on how nuclear bombs work. The NLF used a thermal-nuclear device. Whatever that is, it is a nuclear device. Leave it at that.

))

[Aazamon]

So in your Opinion the Nanomage people should just roll over and let themselves be destroyed Swiftmind? I think not, you may wish to believe what you want about Omni-Tek's future but I will not stop fighting for survival even if YOU think it's hopeless.

(( I agree on the OOC comments Swiftmind, just clearifiyin that the NLF although IC did attempt a very extreme measure and we don't mind taking the flack for that, it was calculated to not destroy the planet that we are trying to save. We are cutting a fine line between being too destructive but that's where the drama is . But don't worry if the debate over the effectiveness of such a weapon gets heated IC as there are always contradicting points of view on these matters, lets keep this IC from now on if we can .))

[darkthought]

Originally posted by Aazamon
So in your Opinion the Nanomage people should just roll over and let themselves be destroyed Swiftmind? I think not, you may wish to believe what you want about Omni-Tek's future but I will not stop fighting for survival even if YOU think it's hopeless.

(( I agree on the OOC comments Swiftmind, just clearifiyin that the NLF although IC did attempt a very extreme measure and we don't mind taking the flack for that, it was calculated to not destroy the planet that we are trying to save. We are cutting a fine line between being too destructive but that's where the drama is . But don't worry if the debate over the effectiveness of such a weapon gets heated IC as there are always contradicting points of view on these matters, lets keep this IC from now on if we can .))

You're aiming at the wrong thing here. Remember that all Notum comes from The Source in the Shadowlands. If you want to insure that there's Notum enough for everybody (btw, I still have yet to see you cough up documents saying otherwise in the first place,) aid Ergo in fighting off the brink. It's perhaps the one thing that all sides can agree on.

((OOC Apologies if I offend. I tend to lose my temper when I'm patronized. Ask my 2 ex-roommates. ))

-Darkthought
Member of Omni-Mining

[Trisagiona]

Originally posted by Swiftmind

About the life comment made by the member of Desert Winds…I must ask, what are you talking about? We are living fine on this planet yes? The trees grow, the leets run, flowers bloom, how is it barely enough to contain life? Yes there are wastelands or the deserts in other words, but many planets have deserts. I think you overstretched your statement.
))

What I am saying Swiftmind is that the whole ecosystem is unbalanced. It's only through hard work from thousands of dedicated individuals this ecosystem does not turn into a barren wasteland. And I'm not talking about Mort here, I'm talking about a real wasteland where nothing lives. Let me give you an example.

The leet and rollerrat population. They are way out of proportion. In a stable ecosystem they are kept down by natural means. Predators. There's not enough predators that feed on rodents on Rubi-Ka to keep the population down, thus OT need big campaigns to kill the "vermin". Now in a balanced system this would not be an issue would it?

Leets and Rollerrats are just one little thing in the big mess called Rubi-Kas terraformed zone. Add pollution, radiation and run-off from badly constructed privat mining operations and the mix is ready to explode in our childrens faces.

And Nevver. Don't insult me by calling me a Clanner.

[Rubel]

All OOC (and very long):

There are a few things I need to clarify.

Originally posted by Darkthought
((OOC same to you. and read the above posts. He said, in the first post, a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE. Antimatter isn't a nuclear fuel. It's antimatter fuel.

Please go back and read my post again. I never said to substitute the entire device with antimatter, just the power source that triggers the thermonuclear (fusion) reaction in the first place.

Let me quote the definition of thermonuclear from the dictionary:

thermonuclear
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or derived from the fusion of atomic nuclei at high temperatures: thermonuclear reactions.
2. Of, relating to, or characterized by the use of atomic weapons based on fusion, especially as distinguished from those based on fission: thermonuclear war.

Thus, a thermonuclear device would be any device based on the fusion of atomic nuclei at high temperatures, regardless of how that high temperature was reached. If a different power source is used to bring about that temperature than what we use today, it would still be a thermonuclear device. Using another energy source than fission would not change the fact that the device is thermonuclear, as long as the fusion reaction takes place.

Originally posted by Darkthought
Not to mention that antimatter is waay more energetic when combined with regular matter, which this world is made of. Current (talking nowadays) theory's state that you can use antimatter to fuel a starship, but the engine exaust would vaporize the Earth.

I'll have to say that in-game reality is more important than contemporary theory. In the AO universe, antimatter can be handled in such a manner that it can even be used as ammunition in single-target personal weapons such as this. Therefore I find it quite reasonable to assume that antimatter can be used to produce the energy needed to trigger a fusion reaction... in the AO universe.

Originally posted by Darkthought
And don't be an ass when posting OOC. ))

I tried to make my critical remark as polite and non-confrontational as possible, but I realize now that this just left it open to be interpreted as me being patronizing. I'm afraid that I wouldn't know how to present what I was trying to say without causing resentment (English is not my primary language). But I'm not the one resorting to namecalling. Anyway, I apologize for any offense I may have caused you, that wasn't my intention in posting what I did.

Let me go back to your first post and explain exactly what made me object to it, and why.

Originally posted by Darkthought
Thermonuclear devices never ever leave a "faint" amount of radioactivity. It's in the nature of the beast. An uncontrolled fission reaction triggers an uncontrolled fusion reaction. There is no way to get a low yield with the technology.

1. A thermonuclear device need not use an uncontrolled fission reaction to trigger the thermonuclear reaction. This is merely how such devices work today, since fission technology is the only option we have right now when it comes to producing sufficient power. With the technology of the AO universe, there are many powerful energy sources that would be sufficient.

2. Without this fission-based trigger there will not be any radioactive fallout, since a fusion reaction doesn't produce radioactive materials. There will be a short burst of radiation at the time of the explosion, but no lasting radioactivity.

3. I have shown you an example of how antimatter, which reacts more forcefully than nuclear fusion, is in use as ammunition in personal weapons in the AO universe. With this in mind, I don't see how anyone can deny the possibility of a low-yield fusion explosion in a universe and with such technology.

Originally posted by Swiftmind
(( OOC Comments:

Look I know we are enemies IC but OOC we are not and respect must be maintained. Actually respect must be maintained IC and OOC….at all times basically.

I totally agree with this, and I'm doing my best to be respectful even if I'm making critical comments. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.

Originally posted by Swiftmind
We are not all fully informed on the long time-line and background stories Funcom has created. Thus no one should criticize another if they are not informed about a certain event or way something happened. The better way would tell them about it OOC or have them look up where you discovered this info. We must also remember we are not in the year 29477….unfortunately hehe.

We are not all nuclear scientists. I don’t know how nuclear bombs work myself. I rather not have this get into a debate on how nuclear bombs work. The NLF used a thermal-nuclear device. Whatever that is, it is a nuclear device. Leave it at that.

))

I have no problem with people not having absolute knowledge about how the background and technology works. But if one can't substantiate ones claims regarding how things work, those claims should not be presented as absolute facts. Especially not if those claims are used to shoot down the arguments of others.

One of the main reasons I did make a critical comment, was exactly because of the fact that few of us actually know much about how these things work. Most people would just have had to accept the statements presented as scientific fact because they had no way to counter them, even though those statements might not hold true in the AO setting.

I saw valid arguments shot down by someone making absolute statements about how things work, without regard to how it might not be true in the IC reality. And I saw that this forced the others into a position where they couldn't easily defend their arguments, since they quite possibly didn't have enough knowledge of the scientific side of it... even though their arguments were valid. That's one of the main reasons why I reacted.

Such an insistence on a contemporary mindset is in effect limiting the possiblity of others to use their creativity in this sci-fi setting. As an example, I had already researched the possiblity of DW using a "clean" nuclear explosive, and had concluded that nothing in the AO setting excluded the possibility. After seeing this thread, I'm hesitant to go forward with anything like that.

Originally posted by Darkthought
((OOC Apologies if I offend. I tend to lose my temper when I'm patronized. Ask my 2 ex-roommates. ))

I offer my apologies for any offense on my part as well. It certainly hasn't been my intention to offend. I bear no ill will against you or Omni-Mining, in fact I respect you a lot and hope to work with you again in the future.

I wont make any more OOC remarks here (I think I've said more than enough already) unless challenged to do so. If anybody feels like discussing these matters with me further, please contact me through a PM here or a /tell in-game.

And to those of you who bothered to read this through to the end... I'm impressed.

[darkthought]

All OOC:

((*sigh* Here's your in game proof that nukes cause massive radation. Read the description on some Titan Plasteel Armor once. If you lack some, go to this link

Personally, I still belive that the laws of physics still apply centuries in the future. 1 + 1 still = 2, in base ten, integer math.))