"Exploits, Nerfs, Banning and Overequipping" by Gaute Godager

[______________Xombie]

please poeple!!! i understand that some classes are at a disadvantage i absolutly understand that, but WHY PUNISH every other class in the game because of it.

If you see this as punishment, you are not seeing the point. They are not punishing anyone. No one did anything bad. Overequipping is NOT an exploit. But game balance IS important.
And the thing is, everything can be adjusted to accomodate the non-overequipping rules. Mobs can be made easier. If you can self-buff things, you won't have a problem.
The only two things that the new rules would do is:
-Stop twinkers from having the insane advantage in PvP (PvP should be open to players both new AND old)
-Balance out the overequippable classes with those who cannot. The overequippable classes will still have some advantage because they have self-buffs for the skills that will increase their damage with their weapon.

FC should focus on fixing ways to improve the classes that are at a disadvantage

This is great in theory, but it would require giving some classes the buffs of other classes. And that would not be fair to the overequipable classes. The damage decrease is much more reasonable.

and stop trying to punish everyone else becuase they screwed up.

Although I think Funcom is full of retards, I don't see this as completely their fault. It is 50% their lack of foresight, and 50% our fault for completely imbalancing PvP with twinking.

Its all part of the fun of the game to try and twinked yourself to be better than everyone one else in the game

That's not a fair assumption. It's fun for YOU. But there is no reason why anyone should be able to PvP at a greater advantage just because they have a higher level character. NO mmorpg ever accomodates this. It will be impossible in upcoming ones.

[_________Firewater58]

>FC should focus on fixing ways to improve the classes that are at a disadvantage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>This is great in theory, but it would require giving some classes the buffs of other classes.

Wrong. No need to do that if Funcom is smart enough to "create" new content for those classes.

>And that would not be fair to the overequipable classes. The damage decrease is much more reasonable.

Wrong again. Damage decreases will cripple agents and soldiers. When was the last time you PvP'd? My lvl 86 MP has a record of 46 and 8 now in PvP since im able to "heal" so well. Healing classes rule in PvP - its an absolute JOKE! My MP shouldnt beat a soldier or agent in PvP. Im almost ashamed ive beat up so many agents and soldiers with my MP - buts its Funcoms fault.

Do you really want Docs, MAs and MPS to fight the Omni vs Clan war? What a joke.

ADD CONTENT TO AO - IMPROVE LESSER CLASSES - FIX LAG - DONT NERF!

[_________Firewater58]

>That's not a fair assumption. It's fun for YOU. But there is no reason why anyone should be able to PvP at a greater advantage just because they have a higher level character.

? Higher level character? Are you talking actual lvl or twinked combat abilites? There is a "range" that PvP abides to. But ya its tough to tell who is twinked and who isnt.

But ya ill give you a reason they should have an advantage over someone like me who doesnt twink - THEY WORKED HARDER FOR IT!

Trust me, if we have it your way - PvP will end up being a damn crap shoot where the only thing youll have to do in combat is press the "q" and wait for your 50/50 chance to win. Gee thats fun. Remember that Funcom has AWEFULL range of damage and LUCK implimentation for combat. Do we really want all PvP to end up relying on Funcoms piss poor game mechanics more then we have to?

Acording to your (and supporters of "no twink") ideas, all combat will follow this senerio:

2 lvl 20 Soldiers enter the area - same stats - both have 500 hit points - since you guys dont want twinking:

Soldier 1 hits for 100 damage
Soldier 2 hits for 80 damage
Soldier 1 hits for 80 damage
Soldier 2 hits for 100 damage
Soldier 1 hits for 120 damage
Soldier 2 hits for 120 damage
Soldier 1 hits for 100 damage
Soldier 2 hits for 100 damage
Soldier 1 hits for 2 damage
Soldier 2 hits for 100 damage and wins

Oh gee - thats strategy! Who carse about coming prepared for battle and creating something that can fight when its all up to Funcoms awefull "role of the dice" mechanics.

>NO mmorpg ever accomodates this.

AO was originally designed to accomodate this! DUH! Every buff, implant, twink in AO we created by the AO designers to create a "link" between class - I scratch your back, you scratch mine. If its out of hand, then again thats because of Funcoms awefull character balancing that "should" have been tweeked during beta! Just help out those classes that cant twink to the same level other can.

>It will be impossible in upcoming ones.

? Again your posts are awefully cryptic and this makes no sense. Anything is possible in a MMRPG - But your saying that poor game balance will be "less likely" to occur in future MMRPG right? Lets hope so !

[________________Shen]

Totally off topic but I don't really care.

Xombie do you still play?!

This is Meth. I lost all my ICQ stuff because my hard drive fried, haven't been able to contact you or anyone else o_O

My main is named "Caishen". Level 70 Enforcer.

Hit me back ingame

[________________Shen]

"Acording to your (and supporters of "no twink") ideas, all combat will follow this senerio:

2 lvl 20 Soldiers enter the area - same stats - both have 500 hit points - since you guys dont want twinking:

Soldier 1 hits for 100 damage
Soldier 2 hits for 80 damage
Soldier 1 hits for 80 damage
Soldier 2 hits for 100 damage
Soldier 1 hits for 120 damage
Soldier 2 hits for 120 damage
Soldier 1 hits for 100 damage
Soldier 2 hits for 100 damage
Soldier 1 hits for 2 damage
Soldier 2 hits for 100 damage and wins

Oh gee - thats strategy! Who carse about coming prepared for battle and creating something that can fight when its all up to Funcoms awefull "role of the dice" mechanics."


No, you have no idea what you're talking about. Combat would be decided by armour, weapons, implants, buffs, etc, etc...I'm no expert but isn't that the way it's supposed to be?

Also you stated that people twinking out lower lvl characters with high lvl main characters "worked harder for it" and thus deserve to win? Bollocks to that. A guy with a lvl 20 main character that's good at pvp worked 10 times as hard on that character than any twinker. As for the " "role of the dice" mechanics." once again...I'm no expert but don't most RPGs rely on this sort of mechanics?

You seem like you really care about what you're talking about...you're very worked up...but I'm not sure you actually have any clue.

[_________Firewater58]

>No, you have no idea what you're talking about. Combat would be decided by armour, weapons, implants, buffs, etc, etc...I'm no expert but isn't that the way it's supposed to be?

Yes thats the way its supposed to be, BUT - once you level up a bit everyone wears similar armor, weapons, implants etc. And anyone above lvl 100 will tell you this. The is far too little "viable" content in AO to make classes different from on another. IE all combat between same classes will be almost the same!

How many soldiers about lvl 100 do you see carrying around guns other then a novaflow or flashpoint? (some but they are few) Funcom put in the HeavyGamma Beamer Weapon that would be nice to use, but beacuse of AWEFULL game mechanics, the HeavyGamma Beamer has no advantage over a NovaFlow. No purpose to its existance. What about that 20mm gun that looks like a mausser and uses the same skills as the NovaFlow? Again no point to using it cuz its awefull. What about the Seburu serries of bullet guns? Again they blow compared to the NovaFlow. What about even an ebeamer? At high levels the Novaflow owns it again. (im not dissing the fact that some guns are better - but to have class that use only one weapon with no strat or incentive to use others is awefull imo) And the list of useless items in AO goes on and on.

>Also you stated that people twinking out lower lvl characters with high lvl main characters "worked harder for it" and thus deserve to win? Bollocks to that. A guy with a lvl 20 main character that's good at pvp worked 10 times as hard on that character than any twinker.

? What do you mean "good at pvp?" You dont get "good" at it because of how awefull its currently implimented - you CREATE a good character for PvP. Course if they would just fix and or come up with a decent pvp system then there "might" be some skill to pvp.

People like you are also forgetting the extra ip cost of twinking at low levels that puts stress on other areas of a characters development. (its been posted on this thread before but you obviously missed) You cant just run to OmniTrade and say "Hey guys I have 500,000 credits! I need a wrangle, assaultrifle buff, and riotcontrol for my lvl 20 char. Hit me with it!"

Did you ever stop and think that you "might" need to spend ip on treatment to get those implants in? Or perhaps your comp lit skills will need some ip to hook up that lvl 50 belt ncu. People who "dont" twink at an early level can but that ip into evades and or other areas to help round out there characters for when they group for xp to lvl.

Not to mention the cost and time of those "buffs."

So do you still think that twinkers "dont" work harder? Create a lvl 20 soldier and load him with lvl 50 implants weapons and armor and then come back to these forums and tell us that it was easy. Like someone else posted - many twinkers spend so much time "twinking" that by the time they have lvl 50 stuff on a lvl 20 character - most of their piers have hit lvl 30-40. And what happens to the twinked out players now that they have all the good stuff - they end up outgrowing it all at a faster rate because of their increased abilites.

Why is it so hard to grant them the luxury of just a little bit of "fun" for their efforts?

>As for the " "role of the dice" mechanics." once again...I'm no expert but don't most RPGs rely on this sort of mechanics?

Yes, but ive NEVER seen any rpg that would let a ql200 weapon like a novaflow blast away at a mob and do 1 damage the first hit and then 500 the second. Its a gun for crying out loud - how does a lazer blast to the chest somehow hurt that much less? Is Omni ammunition that shotty? (its sad all the "creative" ways we have to think of to overcome Funcoms crappy game mechanics) If you cant predict what will happen in combat - then you rely on "luck." Which is what I was trying to mention.

>You seem like you really care about what you're talking about...you're very worked up...but I'm not sure you actually have any clue.

We all care about this game and the time we spend in Rubika. And dont you think you should spend less time telling people like me that "we dont have a clue" and more time adding some constructive coments to this thread? Have you even mentioned ONE thing that could be done to improve AO? Easy to tell people they "dont have a clue" - but since you have never tried to twink out a character and have yet to post anything usefull - who really "doesnt have a clue?"

[________________Shen]

Actually in a previous post I listed my theory on ways to improve the game.

ip cost isn't really a factor for implants btw. you can get the +35 doc treatment buff and expertise, put on a full suit of omnimed and I'm pretty sure you can squeeze those implants in. For agility you hit up an agent, str/sta an enforcer, sense an agent again, yadda yadda yadda.

"never tried to twink out a character"? lol. Who hasn't?! I have a lvl 15 crat with a ql40 shotgun and a lvl 20ish pet...the pets kind of low, I need to upgrade my ql20 implants I've been wearing since...oh I don't know...lvl 5.


"So do you still think that twinkers "dont" work harder? Create a lvl 20 soldier and load him with lvl 50 implants weapons and armor and then come back to these forums and tell us that it was easy. Like someone else posted - many twinkers spend so much time "twinking" that by the time they have lvl 50 stuff on a lvl 20 character - most of their piers have hit lvl 30-40. And what happens to the twinked out players now that they have all the good stuff - they end up outgrowing it all at a faster rate because of their increased abilites.

Why is it so hard to grant them the luxury of just a little bit of "fun" for their efforts?"

What you're basically saying...I think I'm reading this right...is that you have a lvl 100+ main and you twink out little made for pvp characters. I bet the equipment checks would hit you pretty hard. Well tough. It would balance the game. It would solve most of the balancing problems in pvp, whether you want ot admit it or not.

"How many soldiers about lvl 100 do you see carrying around guns other then a novaflow or flashpoint? (some but they are few) Funcom put in the HeavyGamma Beamer Weapon that would be nice to use, but beacuse of AWEFULL game mechanics, the HeavyGamma Beamer has no advantage over a NovaFlow. No purpose to its existance. What about that 20mm gun that looks like a mausser and uses the same skills as the NovaFlow? Again no point to using it cuz its awefull. What about the Seburu serries of bullet guns? Again they blow compared to the NovaFlow. What about even an ebeamer? At high levels the Novaflow owns it again. (im not dissing the fact that some guns are better - but to have class that use only one weapon with no strat or incentive to use others is awefull imo) And the list of useless items in AO goes on and on. "

I agree with you that they need to add more content. Agree completely. HOWEVER this does not change the complete lack of balance within the game. All it means is instead of one super weapon soldiers would get three. Then people would be complaining about the three super weapons the soldiers get. btw it's spelled awful.

"We all care about this game and the time we spend in Rubika. And dont you think you should spend less time telling people like me that "we dont have a clue" and more time adding some constructive coments to this thread? Have you even mentioned ONE thing that could be done to improve AO? Easy to tell people they "dont have a clue" - but since you have never tried to twink out a character and have yet to post anything usefull - who really "doesnt have a clue?""

Go back a bit in this thread. I had some ideas about game balancing. Beyond that, I consider letting you know you have no clue rather constructive.

Sidenote - I never actually said "doesnt have a clue?" so why is it in quotation marks?

Shen out.

[______________Ampris]

Regarding the IP reset. I feel that the IP reset should be available only after all the available skill are "useful" and implemented.

Specifically, there are currently some skills are underutilized at the moment since they are either useless in the eyes of many players or haven't been implemented.

Tutoring
Chemistry
Sharp Objects (Throwing Weapons)
Preception
Climbing
Swimming
Psychology


I'm sure there are many more, but those are the most obvious ones. Maybe it is simply that Funcom hasn't explained what those skills allow or they have plans to enhance them. Who knows?

Since this IP reset is going to be a one time only and time limited option, Funcom should seriously think about having every available skill resonably functional prior to the IP reset. This way the player base can judge every skills usefulness based on their in-game experience with it prior to the IP reset.

Failing that, Funcom should at least let the players know if these skills are every going to be tweaked of if so, specifically explain what these skills are going to do in the future.

Anyway, one obvious issue is the possibility of players spending tons on NP or other tradeskills prior to the IP reset. They can then make implants or other items for use after the IP reset. They can just store them in their bank for use after the IP reset. That is the only potential problem that I can think of with an IP reset.


"Ampris"
Rome Blue, Highrise 8

[______________Hodaka]

wrong thread..

[Meetshield]

But ya ill give you a reason they should have an advantage over someone like me who doesnt twink - THEY WORKED HARDER FOR IT!

hmm lets see. Buy 5 million credits on ebay. Take advantage of an exploit or two. Have a few high level friends buff the crap out of you.

Yep, sounds like a lot of hard work and effort to me.

Get real. Sure I put in the effort to over-equip right now, but thats cause I have to, given the state of the game. I would much rather be out hunting and exploring, than camping shops for implants.

If you dont see over-equipping as one of the biggest game design flaws, then you arent paying close enough attention.

[______________Hodaka]

obviously you don't know a thing about how I'm equipping stuff... I spent an entire evening getting into a rifle using my own buffs and trying to beat the timeouts..

The biggest design flaw in AO has been and will always be Funcom listening to whines and not doing their own thing to make all the classes better.. instead, they nerf to appease the angry and vocal minority..

Originally posted by Tomasin


hmm lets see. Buy 5 million credits on ebay. Take advantage of an exploit or two. Have a few high level friends buff the crap out of you.

Yep, sounds like a lot of hard work and effort to me.

Get real. Sure I put in the effort to over-equip right now, but thats cause I have to, given the state of the game. I would much rather be out hunting and exploring, than camping shops for implants.

If you dont see over-equipping as one of the biggest game design flaws, then you arent paying close enough attention.

[Meetshield]

Hmm dont remember saying "hey this is how jws over-equips."

But the fact is, I know people who equip like that, and so do you. Some people really do put a lot of effort into equipping the best items they can, Im one of them, and its a pity that the exploiters ruin it for the honest players.

Thats the way it works, sorry to say, every MMORPG punishes the many because of the few who take the short road to get what they want. Thats because as someone else said, no MMORPG will ever cater to twinks. To throw out an old Verant term, the designers have a "vision" of how the game should work. Over-equipping was envisioned to be part of the game, but sometimes seeing things in action changes the vision. Its not fair that some have cheated their way into weapons and armor way above their level. Its not fair that some see no loss or at best very little loss in benefits due to debuffs, while other classes become completely crippled by it.

They want to make the game as fun as they can for everyone, not just 1 or 2 professions.

Game balance is so out of whack right now that something drastic needs to be done. Sad fact is the people who benefit the most at present from the lack of balance, are the ones who are gonna cry the hardest when the steps to fix it are taken. Will I be hurt by the changes to over-equipping? yep, most definitely, but I can see beyond my little pile of pixels and see that its needed to benefit everyone overall.

[_____________Altaire]

Yep, Im an overequipper, but I think this is a step in the right direction for the overall health of AO. I think that this is part of what needs to be done to balance out the game. I take comfort in knowing that this will not be another Verant style sweep and nerf. We are being offered an IP reset and the chance to fix our characters that we may have gimped following the holy grail item/equipment lines. Sounds fair to me.

If you really think about it, the overequipping syndrome is only rampant in the eariler/mid levels for the most part. When you get to a high level, you are reaching your NATURAL potential anyway and the effects of overequipping tape off. There are no implants or anything over QL 200 so, as you get closer to 200, the less your uber implants remain necessary to keep what you have on your shoulders or in your hands. Your superfly implants are no longer superfly as your character ages. I think it is fair and will add the missing mechanics to the game by fueling the desire to use the currently almost useless buffs and have people to keep your team running efficiently. To be honest with you, it gets pretty darn boring when you are subjected to the same old fighting styles.

Just think, DEBUFFS WILL MEAN SOMETHING! For the love of god, I would really like to see the effects of my debuff mean/do something (well, my agent wont like it).

I personally think that for the overall health of the game, we need to do some things to balance things out. This is, in my opinion, a very good compromise. Mobs are tuned right now so that you have to overequip. I'm sure they will tune them accordingly when this change happens.

They are not eliminating overequipping, they are simply toning it a little on low to mid levels. Overequipping will still be possible, but the max effects will not be permanent unless you keep your buffs going. This may even encourage group diversification.
Unless you spent an ungodly amount of time and money on implant ramping before the clinic fix, this should not cripple you.

Oh, and an afterthought, please increase trader wrangle duration if this goes through. It would be nice to not be subjected to tedious buffing every few minutes to maintain skill levels in group hunting with traders.

Also, I realize that you mention NTs and the bebuff issue, but lets not forget about that. Treat them like you treat guns, since nanos are the NTs guns.

Thanks for listening!

Shinjii

[______________Shinji]

Originally posted by Vanya
Hi Cosmik,

4. Make better looking Dungeons they way they look and feel right now is a joke thinking this is a second gen MMORPG. Luclin is coming and it looks gooooooood.
5. Make events for the european player base or they will leave
and those dollars are worth it.
6. Fix Bugs

thats all then you have the perfect game

/BUMP

[_____________Altaire]

Well, I'll be da3ned. You must be the "Shinji" that got the name before me. LOL.. I think you were getting /tells that were meant for me on Saturday.

I wound up with Shinjii instead Nice to bump into you if you are the guy who has their character named "Shinji". Btw, there was someone who really had it in for you and thought I was you. lol


Altaire

[______________Hodaka]

My bets are on the debuffers out there as the next rulers.. there still will be no balance... just a shift the wrong way and more nerfs..

This entire issue could have been handled without a single nerf by fixing all the classes. Funcom just doesn't seem to know how to fix. They give the Fixers useless nanos to make them "better" that not a single fixer I know will even use.. That's fixing things?

However, they seem to be on a role with nerfing, they do it so well, they end up having to nerf another class because of their "overnerfs".. it's a neverending cycle..

There will be no balance, count on it..

Originally posted by Tomasin
Hmm dont remember saying "hey this is how jws over-equips."

But the fact is, I know people who equip like that, and so do you. Some people really do put a lot of effort into equipping the best items they can, Im one of them, and its a pity that the exploiters ruin it for the honest players.

Thats the way it works, sorry to say, every MMORPG punishes the many because of the few who take the short road to get what they want. Thats because as someone else said, no MMORPG will ever cater to twinks. To throw out an old Verant term, the designers have a "vision" of how the game should work. Over-equipping was envisioned to be part of the game, but sometimes seeing things in action changes the vision. Its not fair that some have cheated their way into weapons and armor way above their level. Its not fair that some see no loss or at best very little loss in benefits due to debuffs, while other classes become completely crippled by it.

They want to make the game as fun as they can for everyone, not just 1 or 2 professions.

Game balance is so out of whack right now that something drastic needs to be done. Sad fact is the people who benefit the most at present from the lack of balance, are the ones who are gonna cry the hardest when the steps to fix it are taken. Will I be hurt by the changes to over-equipping? yep, most definitely, but I can see beyond my little pile of pixels and see that its needed to benefit everyone overall.

[______________Xombie]

Wrong again. Damage decreases will cripple agents and soldiers.

-Agents are not intended to be a combat profession. Funcom's already said that.
-The damage decrease would level soldiers with NT's more. NT's are supposed to be a combat profession.

When was the last time you PvP'd? My lvl 86 MP has a record of 46 and 8 now in PvP since im able to "heal" so well.

What do you mean "now"? There hasn't been an increase in healing or damage for the MP class.
If these weapon changes go into effect, there will no longer be a need for the pvp half damage.

Healing classes rule in PvP - its an absolute JOKE! My MP shouldnt beat a soldier or agent in PvP.

MP's aren't a healing class, though.

[______________Xombie]

The biggest design flaw in AO has been and will always be Funcom listening to whines and not doing their own thing to make all the classes better..

No. That's not the idea. The idea is to:
1.) end the imbalance caused by people twinking down from higher classes
2.) Level the playing field between nano users and weapon users.

If you have ANY better idea as to how to address these issues, then please state it. That's what the threads are here for. But don't go around saying that whatever YOU believe is right is best for the good of the many, or attempting to speak for the majority of people. Last time I checked, no one here has been elected as an "AO Community Representative". Everyone can speak for themselves.

[____________fortykru]

Good and likely anything I have to say has already been said ten times before this post got up, but I think it's important for us all to put a vote in on this issue as it affects us all. The fact of the matter is that overequipping is indeed an issue. I know the gun classes say it's a part of life, but that's because it's how they thrive.

For instance, do you think in any situation what so ever, that a level 50 character should have access and be able to fully use a gun with a level of 100+? That just sounds silly. I have no doubt that people put time and enegy into the equipment they use, but it's running rampant at this point and it's silly.

The sanest solution I've seen thus far is the sliding scale scheme, if you don't have the full skills, you can't use the full abilities. Maybe even keep it so that you could wriggle into. . . .say. . . . a +10 level gun, but anything beyond that would give more like a +5. That would make it worthwhile to shop around for weapons within a reasonable level range. To offset that nerf, make some gun skills have higher skill/damage ratio bring back the conga AS's, buff burst/fa so that higher skill=higher damage. Lower the MOB's for everybody. No one in that instance is left naked.

A good chunk of the reason I came over to AO was for the gun classes, I wanted to tote around a BFG and blast baddies. After level 30, I realized I would never have the time or funds to amass the infinitly uber equipment that was standard. Much to my dismay, I had to go and look at skill based classes. I've never been much of a Wiz, pet's always get in the way, the only option left to me was MA.

Overequipping is killing AO and it's gun classes. Shooting is fun, shopping is not, make it viable for unpimped players to have some fun. DON'T forget to TONE DOWN the MOBS!

[_________Firewater58]

-Agents are not intended to be a combat profession. Funcom's already said that.

But funcom admited that they have f'd with conceal and admit that there is no current way to get a token "without" combat - so whats an agent supposed to do? Not like they have any choice? And NO I dont think Funcom even had any plans for agents "not" being a combat class - Have you seen the guns they get? If they werent supposed to be a combat class then why do gripos, tsak, stigmas, flech, etc outdamage and equal lvl Novaflow over time? Rifles should be slow and have range - but Funcom messed up and made them fast and nerfed the range of many.

But you and I both agree that agents "shouldnt" be a combat class. Problem is that Funcom continues to waste time with trivial problems like over-equping rather then adding content that would ballance the classes. Give agents a token for suc. sneaking a mission (fix any conceal problems - if they exist - i dont play my agent anymore). Slow down their guns. etc etc. CONTENT and Prof based balancing.

-The damage decrease would level soldiers with NT's more. NT's are supposed to be a combat profession.

NTs ARE an excellent combat profession right now. They dont have the hit points or abilitys to buff into the armor a soldier can but they DO out damage many soldiers over time. But this is only what ive seen NTs lvl 145 -160 do - so maybe im wrong and the NTs lvl 160-200 are crap compared to soldiers - but I doubt it.

Post links to screen shots of lvl 160-200 Nts doing less damage then soldiers over a period of 30secs and Ill believe you. But I think your mistaken - or perhaps im missing your point.