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Thread: "Exploits, Nerfs, Banning and Overequipping" by Gaute Godager

  1. #1

    "Exploits, Nerfs, Banning and Overequipping" by Gaute Godager

    Please use this thread to reply to and discuss Gaute Godager's recent article.
    Earn free game time and play with your friends[/b]

    Anarchy Online Community Representative

  2. #2

    Red face Its like 3 months too late

    If you want to balance things out I suggest you de-equip everyones gear then do an IP reset. That solves people over equiping and solves the IP exploiters.

    On those items that you fear people somehow will abuse it then add title levels to it.

    On the IP reset the only thing that may be a probelm is Maps. If you have uploaded all maps (700 being the higest) an IP reset will not remove those uploaded maps unless you make the map requirements the same as Nano programs.

    However that leads us to the current state of the economy. Its 110% broke. If you dont know what I mean check out ebay people selling 100 to 300 Million credits. That portion of the game is totally destroyed. You cant do anything about that unless you take the time to investigate every account and every character on that account only then with solid proof can you strip that excess money, but we all know that will not happen.

    As far as a player wipe if you want to lose ( I venture to say ) 70% of your playerbase go for it. Or better yet release a patch like 12.6 again and you wont have to worry about daily updates or such because the 10% who stay wont be able to read English

  3. #3

    Angry

    "Quote"

    Ok, if you do read this you are a persistent and intelligent player. This topic was complicated and full of arguments. I hope people from all camps constructively can try to listen and see pros and cons in these topics. Only with your help can Funcom make Anarchy Online a best possible gaming experience, and I really look forward to the replies and suggestions.

    "End Quote"

    Does that mean if you dont read this Article you are not Intelligent ???

  4. #4
    Originally posted by Blue
    "Quote"

    Ok, if you do read this you are a persistent and intelligent player. This topic was complicated and full of arguments. I hope people from all camps constructively can try to listen and see pros and cons in these topics. Only with your help can Funcom make Anarchy Online a best possible gaming experience, and I really look forward to the replies and suggestions.

    "End Quote"

    Does that mean if you dont read this Article you are not Intelligent ???
    I think I am now less intelligent after reading this... thanks.

    To answer the questions posed in the article (repost from non-official thread):

    1. Go ahead, take out the exploiters, I can't see how this would be bad.

    2. One warning, then ban.

    3. Your fourth idea sounds best, by degrading the performance of the item. I think this would help to further balance PvP, although PvM might become even harder, to the point that its not worth it anymore... monsters will definately have to be made easier again after the previous updates that increased their HP etc. I'd say treat all items the same except implants, that way maybe some of the uber kiddies won't complain so much, as they still have some aspect of their character that they can completely pimp out.

    Hope what ever you decide on works out.

  5. #5

    Talking I'm going to get flamed for this, but... ;)

    Over-equipping should be prevented imho, but how is the question. How about limiting the items you can equip by not allowing you to use items of a higher QL than your level ? No more over-equipping, less exploiting, and easier to balance the game.
    Or did that wine not leave my head completely yet ?

  6. #6
    IMHO, items should stop working if you no longer have the stats to use them. It would also make debuffs more interesting in PvP. Debuff a necessary skill and ur gun stops working! Would make debuffs better in combat...making players think more about wut gun they should use in PvP. Of course, its not that big a deal cuz you can just switch to a gun usable with the debuff.

    Overequipping would be perfectly fine if it was balanced for everyone, but its not.

    Gun users have a huge advantage over casters. Mostly because their guns and armor are way better than caster armor and weapons. Strength and stamina are also much more easily buffed than the other armor types. Power/tank armor also falls in the str/stam catagory. This gives tank/gun types a much bigger advantage over casters. If casters can only use spells that their stats allow them to cast, then gun users should only be able to use guns that their stats allow them to use. Same goes with armor and other items.

    I think the partial ability decrease is still unfair. It still gives an overequipped char an advantage over someone who is using equpment in their level range, even if marginal.

    The de-equipping solution would work as well, but moving items just makes more problems (where to put it if bag is full??)

    Just make it so items no longer function if they no longer have the skill to use it, that way the player has to move the item somewhere and replace it with something that works.

  7. #7
    Why not just remove all skill based requirements to equip an item. Then have a formula that modifies the effect of the item based on what percentage of the skill "target" you meet. For example I get given a piece of armour that has a skill target of say strength 100 and gives 500 AC I would be able to equip it on a new character with a really low strength but I would not see any effect from the armour till I met say 51 Str then scale the AC addition so that I would et increased AC up to Str 100 where it would max out at the 500AC it should. The equation could be something like

    If (Skill >= Skill Requirement)
    {
    Benefit = Item Benefit;
    }
    else{
    Benefit Gained = (((Skill Requirement - Skill) / (Skill)) - 0.5)) *2 * Item Benefit;
    If(Benefit Gained < 0) Benefit Gained = 0;
    }

    This way no one can over equip anymore than anyone else but the vast majority of people that have over equipped will still gain some benefit from the items they have so as not to leave them naked. The benefit gained would be the end result of the calculation of any item so that could be intelligence increase from a nano cluster or the damage of a weapon or the damage from a nano formula. In some ways it would be more realistic (not sure that that's a good idea though ) as just because I cannot use a gun would not mean that I cannot hold it and likewise there should be no reason that I could not upload (install) a nano crystal (some software) even though I cannot run it you could go as far as to let any profession upload any crystal it wouldn¡¦t matter because they wouldn¡¦t be able to run them (except for the Agent) I feel that this would also help solve all the gaps that currently exist for equipment and nano programs in that you would for example not have to have exactly the right armour for your level to get close tot eh maximum benefit like you do currently and you would have access to many more NF at any given time even if the higher ones are heavily gimped.

    Well that's my idea anyway but I¡¦m sure it would be a nightmare to code

  8. #8
    1. Yes, with a qualification. Declare an amnesty against exploiters, de-equip them, and drain their bank account. Don't cancel their accounts.

    2. The warning system in place now is fine.

    3. 2 options I see here:


    1) Leave it alone.

    2) De-equip everyone, convert their nanoprograms back to crystals, and wipe IP, returning all used IP to the players. At the same time, set your *FINAL* rules for equipping, make them very well known (with plenty of advance warning, say 2-4 weeks). Personally, I kinda like the idea of scaling back equipment that is too high for you (You've got a ql 120 weapon, but without the trader buff you used you could only get it to 100.. Treat the weapon as a QL100 weapon. I'm assuming that you don't have each individual QL for a weapon entered in the DB, but instead use some sort of formula to determine the stats. Make the stats refigure each time you zone, and add a button on the status window to allow the user to refigure them whenever they get buffed... Sure, this would mean that stats aren't refigured when a nano runs out, but give us a little feelign that we're getting away with something... ) Most important, though, is to *RESET THE MOBS!!!!!* At this point, it seems that the mobs are geared toward the uber-twinked, over-pimped exploiters... right now, even with min-maxing my soldier, I can't take on mobs in even to %65 missions without massive trouble. The whole balance of the game has been ruined by all the constant rebalancing which seems to be done in order to keep up with exploiters/over-equippers. In other words, you've made the game playable for 10% of the players, while leaving the other 90% wondering if they'll ever be able to solo a yellow mob again.

    Just my 2 bucks worth.

    Theanna

    Oh, and as for the NCU belts, if you can buff into 'em, you can wear 'em and use 'em. *BUT* have the NCUs installed act like a unit installed at the maximum QL they can use with current stats.
    And leave implants be... it's incredibly difficult to get together a decent set of implants as it is... let us keep the full effect if we can buff into 'em.
    Last edited by Theanna; Nov 26th, 2001 at 21:14:48.

  9. #9

    Arrow Good article!

    I also think your #4 with items not working at optimum performance is the way to go.
    Although on #5 I suggest leaving both implants and NCU belts alone. To much of a hassle to include those of yet.
    Maybe handle them differently later on.
    To much change at once is bad IMHO. Take a step at time and examine the impact.

    Also:
    The discussion of exploiters and stuff.
    Solve it by doing an IP-RESET! Yeah, a few people that got their hands on IP rings will get hurt but so what? I think they will accept it anyways since it will hopefully remedy the IPExploiters.

    The article also mentions a pre-emptive strike on exploiters.
    Go ahead! CRUSH them.


    ---R

  10. #10
    I would tend to support the "degrade items if stats are not met" option. That way debuffs would not have extreme effects, but twinks with equipment N levels above their own would get less advantage from their stuff.

    As others have also said, at the same time you need to check the MOB power levels. Right now it seems thatthe power level is geared towards the over-equipped characters, so that "normal" characters have a hard time against greens (sometimes).

    As for exploiting: yes, I think you are a bit too naive/easy on the exploiters. One warning then out is what I would recommend. You *really* need to take a tougher stance on expolits and cheating of all kinds, if ruins the motivation for the honest players to see cheaters get away with all kinds of things in a very blatant fashion.

  11. #11

    Question re: overequipping

    If they change overequipping now they'll have to rebalance pvm, because people will be ALOT less powerful. PvM at higher levels is at it's best right now EXTREMLY HARD.

    Leave overequipping alone, it's part of the challenge in this game to optimize your character.

    I can promise you that alot more people will be unhappy about changing overequipping then people that will be happy about it.

    Now, the majority should rule right?
    Make a poll, ask around, forum badgers aren't always right.

  12. #12
    Degarding items stats in relation with your natural / self buffed skills would be disturbing if you were not able to actually see the current stats of your item.

    For ex you would have to know that your theorically 10-100 dmge weapon is only 6-60 at the current time.

    I don't see it happen ...
    "Donner à des millions une connaissance de l'anglais, c'est les rendre esclaves". (Hind Swarâj, ch. 18)

  13. #13

    Unhappy 'Cough'

    I would like to had that I have yet to understand what over-equiping is.

    I am a 55 Atrox Enforcer using a Q106 Hammer.

    Self buffed (2HB implants - General expertises - Headcracker - Challenger) I could equip Q85 or so. With the help of a good Wrangler I was able to get above Q100.

    Finding this Wrangler costed me a lot of time and some money. It also required that I had enough NCU to stack the buffs.

    Is this over-equiping ? I don't think so.

    As for the implant system is very nice but you have to realize that it's mainly aimed towards characters that are twinked : when you see a lvl 20 with insane implants, you know that 1) They have spend a lot of time mission farming (ie. doing A LOT of missions early on and terminating to loose the XP and still run easy missions) or 2) They have a lot of money or the implants themselves transfered from the main character of the same player.

    Is this over-equiping ? I think so.

    In conclusion I would be really happier to see a fix to the source of the problem : the way some ppl equiped high Q belts and have now an insane NCU pool AND the way implants are working.

    As for the rest it seems rather ok to me, the tweaking and optimization process of your character being a lot of fun in the game. The parallel with Diablo II is not a good one. The only customization available in DII is in the skill tree and base characteristics. You don't have access to so much way of affecting the way your character is.

    Please don't squeeze this part of the game that makes it so special.

    IMHO resetting the way belts are equiped will solve 80% of the concerns.
    "Donner à des millions une connaissance de l'anglais, c'est les rendre esclaves". (Hind Swarâj, ch. 18)

  14. #14

    my 5 cents.

    Indeed a nice article.

    Exploiters should have 1 warning - and then be banned 1 week, third time they do it, ban them forever.

    As for how much time u should use - Well priority numero uno should be fixing the bugs, then seeing to add content to the game, third taking care of game imbalancing (That includes exploiters)

    Over-equipment: Leave it - dont do anything about it, its a part of the game and now when the Surgery clinics are fixed (and the portables are not, and traders Comp lit buff is sellf only) its harder to really overequip. Another thing is that if u tend to do something about it - well a soldier that is uber-equipped is really tough mother, but a Fixer that dosnt overequip is as good as dead.
    The problem is that u see it as a whole thing - and it isnt, yeah sure an uber-equipped Enforcer is tough and have an advantage in missions etc. But the thing is that a Non-combat orientated proffesion and a combat orientated Proffesion has to do the SAME things in missions (Shoot, kill, Shoot, kill, shoot, kill) And that is why U see fixers for exampel - level 50 fixer equipped with ql 100+ maussers and ql 80 ribbed armor. Because we have to do the same thing in missions as combat proffesions, if u gave me missions were I was to "fix" things without firing a single shot instead of hack 'n' slash - I would prolly turn my char more over to the skills that is not my combat skills_/- Why do u think I chose a fixer instead of Soldier ? - Because I dont whant to go kill everything all the time.
    Well - Then some people would prolly whine over that missions would be too easy for non-combat types of the main goal was to do non-combat things and still get same money and XPs. The only thing I can say to that, is that if u chose to be enforcer/soldier etc. then its prolly because u like being the "rambo" type of guy - If u choose to be Fixer, Crat, trader, eng etc. then its prolly because u like to do other things than Hack 'n' slash..

  15. #15
    First of all thanks for you post and for your willing to share with us such important matters. Second ... I apologize in advance for my bad English and really hope you will be able to understand what I am going to write

    As far as exploiting is concerned you should first make a distinction between serious and not common exploits and the more common ones. Es. overequipping implants by the stacking treatment buff of surgery clinics bug has been used in various degrees by ... 80% of population ? maybe more ... you can't ban for an exploit which has become of common use. On the other hand for the more serious ones like duping, unlimited IP or money gaining and so on I say 1 warn and then ban. I thing that you can't commit the same penalty to one who is guilty of murder as to one who passed a street light with the red ! If you really know about a group of players who are for the most exploiters, deal with them in a private way, contact their leader, there is no need to do it officially nor you can ban them as a whole if you don’t have the evidence that all of them are guilty.

    When talking about overequipping could you please clarify what exactly you mean ? You put in the game some buffs whose peculiar purpose seems to be overequipping certain items. Also some races/professions seem to have in the possibility of overequipping items their peculiar strength (es. enforcers can overequipp strength/stamina based armor thanks to their own buffs and this makes sense since they are “tanks”, you cannot ask them to keep those buffs ALWAYS on). So where the overequipping starts to be “illegal” and where it is just game design ? My guy is a lvl 74 soldier who is using a ql 123 nova flow,. He is using it only with self buffs and with ql 90 implants, which he can wear with the help of a doc and a medic suit, in fact he is able to switch to another gun while fighting but to many people this could still seem not fair. He also uses armor that he needed enforcers (or docs) and agents buffs to wear, but what were those buffs designed for if not for allowing to wear higher ql equipment ? Once again you should make a distinction here, between what is smart playing and good planning and what is exploiting : the former is using game mechanics at their best and is available to everyone who want to put enough effort in it. I thing that you already solved the most of the overequipping exploiting by removing the surgery clinics bug and by making the trader computer literacy buff self only. What I see now are people who try to use the best equipment they can. There are some who are still affected by previous exploiting, but that will eventually even out with the time. If you really still see a problem with overequipping, please think before doing anything about armor and NCU belts since most people equipped them just using the general buffs and I don’t think it would be fair if general buffs won’t be useful at all any more. Es. I got my comp lit to 230 just to be able to use a 5 slot belt with my own general comp lit buff. Now raising comp lit of another 20 points is VERY expensive IP wise and I may have decided not to do it if I knew that my general comp lit buff could not help me. As far as the weapons overequipping, if you are still willing to do something about it then go reducing it’s effectiveness, since it wont be fair at all if because of a trader debuff I will totally deequipp my weapon and wont be able to reequipp for a long time.

    Another point is that doing our best to equip the highest ql items is a major part of the fun in the game and without that possibility the game will get more boring for a lot of us.

    Also to end the overeqquipp discussion, I must say that overequipping is the only thing that at mid high level keep the pvm viable, should you do something against it you should also accordingly lower the monsters power.

    Solo

  16. #16
    So Truwind, you wont mind losing those 950 tokens you bought when the nodrop exploit was still working?

    Wow man, you are pretty selfless!

    Hey everyone! look at Truwind leader of Dark Carnival! Willingly giving up his 950 tokens he exploited for the good of AO!

    Three cheers for Truwind!

    token cheats should be the first to go...


    Funcom, crack down hard on exploiters. Post their names and guilds.

    They deserve all that they'd get... from us, and you.
    Last edited by CaptFallout; Nov 26th, 2001 at 10:34:38.

  17. #17
    With all this talk of over-equipping, (de)bufiing, wrangleing etc. And peoples proposed changes to the way professions use/wear equipment. Basically, it seems that people want the same set of rules for all professions...

    Well...this is a real pity...because if it happens, it will degrade the game. It is great having to basically "learn" the game again when you choose a new profession. I see a lot of people thinking that "balancing" the game means making everyone abide by the same rules. That's a shame because it really doesn't have to be that way. All that needs to be balanced is the damage output and AC and maybe NCU. For a lot of players AO is about equiping higher level equip then your level. (NO, I don't mean equip 50+ levels higher than your character...but maybe 5-10 lvls). I think a large part of AO is about customising your character, making them the best they can be. Obviously twinking a lvl 30 character to be able to destroy a lvl 90 character...or take on mobs 10 - 15 levels higher than themselves is taking things too far.

    Basically what I am saying...is that a good percentage of the "over"equiping should remain. Also, the differing equiping and calculation rules for Casters and Weapon users should remain. All that needs to change are the calculations that work out the damage dealt and the benefits of AC. Obviously PvM and PvP will need to be balanaced accordingly.

    If FunCom mess with the professions...and as some people want...make all professions essentially the same...AO is going to loose a lot of what makes it so good.

  18. #18

    Very good indeed

    What goes for the exploiters should be what happens in the real world. You steal, you cheat on your exam, you get busted and you pay for your mistakes. I think that players found exploiting should not recive a warning, they should :

    A) Be banned on 'spot' with a explanation as to why they have been banned
    Or,
    B) Have that conserning player's Characther 'wiped' e.g, remove excess equipment gained from exploiting, ect and have only the ip-points left, as long as those are not a part of the exploit issue as well.

    As for the whole of the exploiter community, I think you should come down HARD and FAST. Mostly to set an example so that perhaps, those doing 'smaller' forms of exploiting will think twice and you will send a message to that community that you will NOT accept exploting in any form,

    As for over equipping, I have some suggestions, besides taking a liking for the idea presented for lowering the performance on equipment over equipped.

    1) If such a thing was to be implemented, anyone using buffs etc to be able to raise skills temporarily, should gain the FULL benefit of that equippment until buffs run out (I didn't see anything mentioned in the article about that) then the performance of the equipment in matter should be lowerd by a certain percentage, varying on how much needed to gain full performance.

    2)Will skills be calculated from base or calculated from benefits gained by implants? This also brings up another issue. What about those using buffs to raise needed skills to use a implant? Will this affect that as well, if so, there will be a whole LOT of players who have spend extremly many days and credits on finding just the right implants.
    Example :
    If someone has a QL35 Rifle but the person is only a lvl 28 Char. With implants this char is 4 IP points away from using this rifle. He / She buffs that required skill and can use the rifle.

    Now, this char also has implants that is somewhat above his level, which helps rais his base skills.

    IF such a thing as the mentioned would be presented, that means that this person WILL loose some or all of the benefits gained from the implants AND the whole or some of the ability to use the Rifle / weapon.

    I think it would be wise to perform such a 'check' on only armor and equipment in general, NOT implants.

    As for nanos, that is a very delicate issue, considering there are proffessions that only rely on nanos. Of course for them, there will be not much change, e.g A NT today, will not be able to cast a spell unless the requirments are met.. If this NT uses buffs to temporarily raise skills, he / she can then use the spell for the period of time the buffs last, after that, it's not possible. This issue has been discussed before as beeing unfair since people now can over equip weapons and, especially for NT's since spells are their 'weapons'.

    The only way to justify that issue, would be to implement the same 'check' for spells and / or spell dependant proffessions, so that once they have managed to upload the program, they can use it, but with a 'lesser' effect such as the idea is for both weapons and equipment now. Otherwise it will be hard to justify anything less than "Either you can use the weapon or you can't"
    which in the end also might be a solution. Disregarding implants and using the base skill gained for those should then be 'base skill' and after buffs wear off, the equipment / weapon don't work.

    As for NCU's I think they should be left alone.

    To summarize :

    1. Exploiters should be banned without warning. If you do something wrong, you should be punished for that.

    2. Over equipping should have 'checks' making them less efficent when the exact required skills are not met

    3. Nanos, well my opnion is to leave that alone for the time beeing and perhaps lookinto the fact that is now for the players using nano dependant proffesions and think of a way to equalize their 'weapons' vs normal weapons like rifles.
    Elements of Destruction

    [Virre lvl 164 Enf ] [Virrefix lvl 50 Fixer] - Part Time Hobby -

    [Current Config]


    Your answers were split as follows:
    Explorer 66%
    Killer 53%
    Socializer 46%
    Achiever 33%

    We Will Miss You Wrangeline

  19. #19

    Post K, here's what I think...

    May be I missed something, but I don't really see what's the question with the exploiters. Warn them and if they do it again ban them. period.

    Now to a more sensetive issue - overquipping. Since RPG came out there were two types of players: twinkers and roleplayers. Twinkers will always twink (manipulate game machenics in legal way to make their abileties extremly high) and role-players care less about the game mechanics and simply want to enjoy the world they live in. Here's a simple truth - twinkers will always exist and twink no meter what you do. You solve over-equipping, they will find something else. It is impossible to completely make the game fare for all as some poeple will spend hours on figuring out how to manipulate game mecahnics and others will forget about game mechanics and spend their hours enjoying the game as it is. Most role-players, including me, care less what level we are as long as we can enjoy the game. however, the problem ight now is that most of us feel pressured to resort to twinking and gain levels. I personally wouldn't mind staying level 1 if I still would be able to take part in the story and enjoy the game form the role-playing point of view. A level 150 uns by me. Am I jelous? No, I think "Good, you're a big dtrong fighter, you run around kill a lot of stuff, while I, the one with the brains, get to manipulate your fate." Truth it, at low levels you can't do anything. All static "story" dungeons have high level requirements. "Story" events are for high-level chars. "Story missions" are non-existant or high enough for me not even to see them. What can we do at low levels?

    So here is my solution: Forget about the twinkers. Let them twink all they want. For them it's fun, so let them have that fun. All they want is to become level 1000. Fine, who cares? Put the role-playing elements of the game, such as the story, on role-players. Let us get involved in that. Think about it, would a twinker rather run around and kill some more stuff to get some more levels or would he sit for 2 hours in a meeting deciding weather or not amnesty will hold? He doesn't care about the amnesty! He might not even know what it is. So figure out a way to give role-players control of the story and have them take part in role-playing events, while twinkers can run around, kill stuff, level, kill stuff, level, figure out how to twink even more to kill more stuff and level faster. Of cours there will be events for twinkers as well, such as massive combat actions and such where it really does metter how strong of a soldier you are, but people in charge of those events (commanders of the armies or those who decided that there should even be one) do not have to be most bloody players in the game! See what I mean? If you can give role-players role-playing and twinkers twinking, everyone will be happy!

    I am sick and tired of all this about "Engeneers should be nerfed, Agents should be nerfed," etc. I play an Agent not because of the game mechanics, but because that's what I see my self as in the world of Rubi-Ka. I play Neutral despite that I don't get tokens, good equipment and other in-game benefits, simply for a role-playing purpose. Yet you are trying to figure out how to help those that manipulate game mechanics instead of those who play as they are supposed to and get nothing!

    Thanks for your time and have a nice day!
    Major Shadowolf Marone
    Blade Corp
    "Leading mercenery organization in the Galaxy!"
    Position - CEO
    Rank - Major

    Personal quote:
    "Your advertisement could be here"

  20. #20
    Welp originally I was planning to make a rather lenghty comment here....then Solo posted and his thoughts are quite similar to mine it seems

    First of all: I am AGAINST changing the rules concerning this "overequiping" discucssion.
    And here is why:
    -you will make whole lines of buffs a totally worthless
    -you will take away the social interaction you get from ppl buffing each other
    -you will totally screw your anyway fragile cardhouse of game balance since some professions RELY on "overequipping"
    -ultimately the game will become more boring because you reduce the diversity of the player comunity and take away the fun part of "self-tailoring" your char according to your own wishes

    ....damn post got too long anyway

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