Roots...TO POWERFUL

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Zerpentor
Roots against pet handlers are fairly easy to balance a bit.

1: make the roots on the pets break when the master is shot.

2: limit the root to 1 target so only the master OR pet can be rooted. This way the master can flee if the rooter doesnt feel like dealing with the pet and he has to deal with the pet if he wants the pet master to stick around.

3: change recharge on roots and make them break easier


as it is today anyone with roots will win easily over pet handlers because pet's have ZERO nano resist. Basicly a lvl 75 rooter can take out a lvl 140-150 with relative easy if he knows what he's doing

Firstly, pets don't have 0 nano resist. Pets actually have a very decent nano resist. I've noticed this more and more as I actually try to Charm pets when people go LD so we can continue missions without them.

But... you miss the points.

1. There is no reason for a Self-Contained Bot or Meatball to lose a root when the master is shot. By that same note, should the pet take damage when the master is shot?

2. What about AOE Roots?

3. Roots are already TOO EASY to break. 1 or 2 hits tops and they are already broken. What I would want to see is that roots dependant on qlvl have an exponential chance of breaking when the target is hit, however the better the root the less dramatice the chance of it breaking. Slows should be much much harder to break or else they are pretty dang useless.

[_______FeloniousPunk]

Originally posted by Lucid Flow



Firstly, pets don't have 0 nano resist. Pets actually have a very decent nano resist. I've noticed this more and more as I actually try to Charm pets when people go LD so we can continue missions without them.

I don't believe that. I have never, ever seen my pet (gladbot) resist a root (nor his predecessors). Ever. And I've never heard of a person failing to root a pet in PvP when they've tried. Maybe there's some other layer of determinants with charms, but roots are a foolproof way to shut down a bot.

Anyway, to the original guy's problems:

I was with you at first, since I think it's ridiculously easy to root a pet, but as this thread wears on, it seems you want roots to be unable to really harm you in anyway. You're always going to be vulnerable in 25% and 0% zones, you are just going to have to learn to live with that. In addition to the suggestions telling you to outright avoid such areas, consider going to such places in a team. Having friends with you can really make a difference.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Lucid Flow



Firstly, pets don't have 0 nano resist. Pets actually have a very decent nano resist. I've noticed this more and more as I actually try to Charm pets when people go LD so we can continue missions without them.

But... you miss the points.

1. There is no reason for a Self-Contained Bot or Meatball to lose a root when the master is shot. By that same note, should the pet take damage when the master is shot?

2. What about AOE Roots?

3. Roots are already TOO EASY to break. 1 or 2 hits tops and they are already broken. What I would want to see is that roots dependant on qlvl have an exponential chance of breaking when the target is hit, however the better the root the less dramatice the chance of it breaking. Slows should be much much harder to break or else they are pretty dang useless.

Damn...beat me to it. Musta been because I was laughing too hard

[_________LastJourney]

Originally posted by FeloniousPunk

Anyway, to the original guy's problems:

I was with you at first, since I think it's ridiculously easy to root a pet, but as this thread wears on, it seems you want roots to be unable to really harm you in anyway. You're always going to be vulnerable in 25% and 0% zones, you are just going to have to learn to live with that. In addition to the suggestions telling you to outright avoid such areas, consider going to such places in a team. Having friends with you can really make a difference.

No, I never said shut down roots in their entirety. Why can't people read? I said I wanted a 25% chance to get away. But apparently the root crowd thinks that 75% of kicking my a** is too little. I never said "remove roots". What is the big deal here. Bots have no resist, pet classes weapon is our bots, what is wrong with a 25% chance to use them. Stop taking what I am saying as "I want 100% resistance!!". I never said that. I am just asking for some kind of resistance that works.

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by FeloniousPunk
I don't believe that. I have never, ever seen my pet (gladbot) resist a root (nor his predecessors). Ever. And I've never heard of a person failing to root a pet in PvP when they've tried. Maybe there's some other layer of determinants with charms, but roots are a foolproof way to shut down a bot.

How exactly would you see it? There is NO message given back to the player when a pet resists a Nano Formula. When I root in PVP, I have had pets resist the roots plenty of times.

It's by no means foolproof.

[_____________Wenzell]

Talked to a GM, he said root works as intended.
Still no clear answer on nano resist.

[Razzitazz]

Originally posted by FeloniousPunk


I don't believe that. I have never, ever seen my pet (gladbot) resist a root (nor his predecessors). Ever. And I've never heard of a person failing to root a pet in PvP when they've tried. Maybe there's some other layer of determinants with charms, but roots are a foolproof way to shut down a bot.

Anyway, to the original guy's problems:

I was with you at first, since I think it's ridiculously easy to root a pet, but as this thread wears on, it seems you want roots to be unable to really harm you in anyway. You're always going to be vulnerable in 25% and 0% zones, you are just going to have to learn to live with that. In addition to the suggestions telling you to outright avoid such areas, consider going to such places in a team. Having friends with you can really make a difference.

Ouz, Troyt, Jink - fought all three, all just spars.

Ouzs bot countered 2 times (Warbot)
Troyts countered 3 times (Slayer)
Jinks countered 1 time (Slayer)

Once the root lands though its all good but they definately can counter roots. I doubt a lvl 75 can root a slayer without a counter or two. Unless he gets lucky. These are NT roots, don't know about the others.

[Nostra343]

People say that any damage breaks a root. Does this apply to mobs as well? They root me, they damage me a lot, I damage them more, they die, I'm still rooted for 3.5 minutes....

[Nikki.]

You obviously dont know the trick then and are doing something wrong.

Next time you get rooted and that big bad NT stares you down and gives a mighty laugh as he begins to cast Last Word. Smile right back. It will unnerve him and throw him off a little. Then as he pauses to figure out what is up your sleeve pull out your secret weapon. Look up to the gods, give a little prayer, then shiote your pants. That always seems to break root for me.

:O)

[Nostra343]

thanx!

That was predictably helpful!

[_______________Sirix]

LastJourney, you have to have come to a realization by now..

You claim that the only people that don't want a nerf (nerf being a general term, perhaps not a nerf on the spell itself, but yes everyone getting a 25% better chance to resist a root IS a nerf to the root.. doesnt it make it less affective? bingo.. anyway not the point) are the people that have the roots themselves..

Have you noticed that not 1 person on this entire 4 page post has agreed with you? Not one.

And you can find people on here to agree with some pretty far-out things.

Plus, your very hypocritical.. if you reread some of your posts, you'll see what I mean. You complain constantly about your pet being rooted, and then turn around and say "who cares about the pet I can terminate it and make another".

Roots have been around forever, the people that die to them, complain about them. Everyone complains about how they die, it's a fact. You just happen to complain more loudly on these boards.

[loca]

Originally posted by Nostra343
People say that any damage breaks a root. Does this apply to mobs as well? They root me, they damage me a lot, I damage them more, they die, I'm still rooted for 3.5 minutes....

just cast incompetence on u self...was fixed in patch 13.8

f####d in patch 13.91

so use it well

[Nostra343]

will do, thanx

[_________LastJourney]

Originally posted by Sirix
LastJourney, you have to have come to a realization by now..

You claim that the only people that don't want a nerf (nerf being a general term, perhaps not a nerf on the spell itself, but yes everyone getting a 25% better chance to resist a root IS a nerf to the root.. doesnt it make it less affective? bingo.. anyway not the point) are the people that have the roots themselves..

Have you noticed that not 1 person on this entire 4 page post has agreed with you? Not one.

And you can find people on here to agree with some pretty far-out things.

Plus, your very hypocritical.. if you reread some of your posts, you'll see what I mean. You complain constantly about your pet being rooted, and then turn around and say "who cares about the pet I can terminate it and make another".

Roots have been around forever, the people that die to them, complain about them. Everyone complains about how they die, it's a fact. You just happen to complain more loudly on these boards.

As for your hypocrytical statement....I decided to make a concession and just ask for the ability for ME to get away. That is not hypocrycy..just a concession

As for agreement....I don't expect anybody who can cast root to agree in any way....

All I can say is this. If there was a nano out there that shut your guns off for 5 minutes, you would be screaming to high hell about it. "I can't shoot!!!" This is basically what has happened to myself and the bot. Short range weapons (though I intend to get a scope as soon as possible) and a bot that is CLOSE range,..but can never move to get close.

If there was such a root that COMPLETELY shut down your guns, you would be creating such a similar forum. Heck....I would be happy with a sympathetic field that did 10 damage to me every 5 seconds...heck...give me 50 damage...just something to resist.

I have NEVER seen ANY of my bots resist...and I cannot shoot my own bot to break the root. It places me in the position of being weaponless to the extreme.

[_________LastJourney]

Played again tonight...with the infamous Wenzell attacking me again..30 seconds after I got there. The good news is that I did the incompetence thing (part of my macros now) and it worked on the first try. That bad thing is that my team happened to be fighting an ace at the moment.....which means my rooted bot was trashed because I could not recall it...and the ace splatted me.

But once again, I have yet to see this "pet resist" that you are talking about. I have had my ql 200 bot rooted by a 105 guy. So,..where is the mighty resistance that you are all telling me exists. I have yet to see it. I could make another bot....but what is the point...it will only be rooted again.

I am thinking of creating a forum for the classes without root...for a nano called "Weapon Malfunction". Something to shut down your guns. Why not?....it is the equivalent of the root to the engineer...except you can still get away if you are fast enough...

You have to look at things from our point of view as well. You never hear..."Oh oh...an engineer is here. You only hear "Cast root...he's toast"

This uber power has placed the engineer on the bottom of the food chain. I am not asking for #1 PVP ranking...just that a balance is attempted by Funcom, so that we all, at the same level, have the same fighting chance to win. A level 200 whatever vs. a level 200 whatever else has a 50/50 chance each of winning. Concessions being made for equipment and other things that make a difference in such an occasion.

At this current moment, the engineer makes a great tank, but that is about it. I would like to be more involved in this world, in all its aspects. I don't want to have to avoid every 25% zone like the plague because I will NEVER survive if attacked. At this current moment I regard the 25% zones as "No Engineer Zones".

I understand your frustration at all the nerfing that is going on. Things such as the mobs in the overland being significantly stronger than ones in missions...for the same xp and other things like nerfing one class, while boosting another.

The key issue here is balacne. I don't think I am being unfair in the least to say I want balance. Many, if not most, will not agree with me in the least because they are on top of the food chain. But I know that there are many who are silent and do agree with me.

If they won't say something.....I will.

[_______________Skara]

LastJourney,

As a melee Adventurer, roots are definitely a problem for me. And nano resist does appear to be the issue. I never resist roots. Granted, my NR is only 200, but the only thing I even have a chance of resisting at the moment, is a 1 in 4 chance of resisting my own general debuffs to break root after combat in PvM.

If at lvl 82 with 200 NR, the nanos I can resist only 25% of the time are nanos I uploaded at lvl 10, I think there is something wrong with NR.

In my 30's I PvP'd a lot. I even fought rooters and had a decent record against them; won some, lost some.

Since I hit the 60's I am 0 and whatever against rooters. My experience is that it DOES NOT break when I am attacked. I recently had a Fixer destroy me with 1 root. He got off several rounds of combat with that one root. Someone mentioned Doting myself. Sounds good, I will keep one handy. But instead of me using a workaround, I would like Funcom to work on NR.

I do play other classes, so I feel for the people who use root in PvM because it is a joke. I don't bother with it. I just mezz.

My current workaround though is to avoid PvP areas, because any rooter who sees me toting these Riders around will salivate over the absolutely risk free kill.

Again, I said workaround. Funcom still needs to work on NR. Don't directly nerf roots, but make NR work a little more effectively. Someone may respond that I need to raise NR and that will help. Since the game doesn't scale properly due to the algorithms that are used for "dice rolls", I seriously doubt it. Go to the NT forum and hear them complain about NR not working, and the skill is much easier for them to raise to high lvls than it is for me.

How about this Lastjourney, I am going to raise an alt Adventurer that will hang around PvP areas as an enticement for rooters. They will see the QL 2 Riders I am wielding and think "Ah Title advancement". That is until my LLTS equipped self switches to my AR, which I have really trained, and alpha strikes them all the way to Aegan.

Imagine the look on the face of the person behind the keyboard when that happens


Skara

[Kuro]

Again, for the people in the cheap seats, this is how nanoresist was explained to me:

Nanoresist is used as the defensive value against a hostile nano being used against you. Just like evades, your aggression level has an effect on how well nanoresist works. So if you're set for full aggressive, nanoresist is working at its least effectiveness. So as far as bots go, think real hard about the effect of using the positive aggression trimmer has on the bot's nanoresist.

Now, obviously if nanoresist is being used as the defensive value there has to be an attacking value. This is whatever nanoskills that are required by the nanoformula at whatever percentage they're used. So using my wacky trader as an example, using Pyramid Marketing I'll have an attack value of 397. My PsychoMod, which accounts for 50% of the attacking value, is 397 along with my T&S. Pyramid Marketing has a 100% resist rate which means 100% of the target's nanoresist is used as the defense value, modified by whatever the target's agg/def value is set. So straight out of the box, assuming that the target's agg/def is set so nanoresist is unmodified, anyone with lower than a 397 in nanoresist is at a disadvantage to resist my Pyramid Marketing. Pet professions, with their tendency to trim their pets aggression as high as possible are in fact gimping their pet's chances of resisting nanoformulas.

Also, if we continue to use my wacky trader and assume he's high on Deprive Skills (Advanced) and Ransack Skills (Advanced) as usual, my attack value for using Pyramid Marketing is actually 548 after buffs. Which means if I'm facing an equal level player, he most likely won't have the nanoresist to avoid my root. I've maxed PsychoMod and T&S every level. Assuming my target has done the same with nanoresist, he's screwed by the fact my nanoskills are buffed beyond a point he can reach raising nanoresist. Same goes if you're facing anyone that has received a MP buff or a Trader wrangle to their nanoskills.

Or if you're facing a fixer, who has a brain when they're rooting, you're facing a profession that can use an AoE root nano which has a resist rate of 75%. That means unmodified by your agg/def setting, only 75% of your nanoresist is being used to defend against the root. Since you're playing a pet profession, it's highly likely that the fixer will use the AoE root to nab you and your bot at the same time.

Now, I'm not going to continue the debate over whether or not we should have the ability to remove hostile nanoformulas legally. I think we should, so long as it is properly balanced so people don't make other professions' roots and debuffs trivial. But depending on who you're facing, you might not have a chance of resisting anything they throw at you.

I also think it's a perfectly valid tactic in team PvP to have someone root the target while the rest of the team hammers it into a gooey paste. To put it bluntly, if you don't like that then your butt shouldn't be in a PvP area. It's too easy to avoid them entirely no matter what level you are. You've made the conscious choice to hunt there despite the risk. Now you have the live with the consequences...or die with them.

[_________LastJourney]

Originally posted by Kuroshio
Again, for the people in the cheap seats, this is how nanoresist was explained to me:.....

So as far as bots go, think real hard about the effect of using the positive aggression trimmer has on the bot's nanoresist.

....with their tendency to trim their pets aggression as high as possible are in fact gimping their pet's chances of resisting nanoformulas.

.

*applause*

Well...FROM THE CHEAP SEATS TO YOU...(just wanted to say that)... I have never really put any points into trimmers. I am always on full defense at all times, to avoid agro I do not want. The trimmers I do use are the ones that make the creatures agro my bot.

Then will you please explain to me how my ql 200 bot has always and WILL always be rooted by any level person.

I am happy you know how the system is SUPPOSED to work. But let's face it .... it does not work.

Your arguement is based on me having an agro bar to the max and me having set my bot to hyper aggressive. As I had stated before, I only use the agro trimmer (it is the only one that has a noticable difference in saving my butt). So I would like to know why a level 105 guy can root my slayer 100% of the time. Of course I would just expect you to post your wonderful formulas again...but....don't.

It simply does not work as stated...

Never has..and if Funcom never fixes it...

....it never will...

[____________Meskulan]

engineers are just one of the worst pvp classes. Period.

[_________LastJourney]

In order to lay this down to bed..so to speak...I am going to talk to some of my guild members, in order to help me with an experiment. I will find somebody who can fight me in an arena. This person must have root. I will have this person cast the roots from the very basic to the very powerful. I will post the results of the experiment, indicating QL of the root and the # of times that it is resisted. I will most likely show this as a percentage. I will try to do each level at least 20 times. This will be time consuming but I hope that this will express what I am trying to say.

If the test proves me wrong, I will post that as well...I am not above admiting when I am wrong,....if empirical evidence shows this.

I also intend to list the character names of the people who participate, so you may ask them if you have any doubts about what I post.

When I post the results, win or lose,....I will hope that a point will be proven. I have the upmost faith in what I am saying, being that I have been experienceing this first-hand, since character creation.

Stay tuned for further updates on the experiment...