How hard can it be?

[_____Poweredge|vault]

Originally posted by Unas


The interface at least is written in C++ (you can tell that by the file names which show up as part of client crash records), don't know about the back end. I've worked as a developer since 1987 and in C++ for about 10 years and this app shows all the signs of a first OO project by a team of C programmers. There's a reason why they say you should throw your first OO project away. Also, their change control seems to be somewhat lacking (now there's an understatement for you).

Someone above was marvelling at the possible size of AO. While this is only a guess, I wouldn't think it was more than a few hundred thousand lines of code, I'd be surprised if it was as many as 500,000. While that sounds huge, it's really no bigger than a fully developed e-mail system (server, client and gateways), and you'd never make any sales if your e-mail system worked as badly as this game does. Every large system has potential dependency problems, it's the development teams responsibility to correctly manage those problems.

If you want to see large, correctly managed systems, look at the ones which run the telephone and electricity grids. Just be glad the folks who wrote AO don't work on those.

Unas

Have to agree.. the versioning does seem a little lacking. Someone should point them to http://sourceforge.net/

I'd be suprised that the code for this is as small as 500,000 to be honest. Yeap, the main engine will probably be quite small, but then you've got UI parser, the AI sub-system, item parser, comms sub-system.. it all adds up. Then again, 500,000 is still alot of code, but I suppose we're not including comments.

As for the nightmare systems, one of our technical people that helps my company writes software that auto-calls internationally, checks line quality, voice synthesis, and measures billing accuracy over thousands of calls. It's frightening stuff.

[______________Nietya]

On the subject of stable code...

Morrowind comes to mind. Id Software, in all their iterations... any and ALL console games I've ever played (and yes, they have 1 consistent hardware platform to develop for, but obviously, with standardization of drivers like we have with DirectX and with the example of some other companies producing stable games under that API, it can be done)...

All these things point to things being grossly disorganized at Funcom, unfortunately. And yes, you can say that all Quake games, Morrowind, Diablo, Oni, that these games are much more simple than Anarchy Online... in effect, they most likely are, but still, not the difference between a game that'll run flawlessly out of the box on just about any hardware platform, and a game where every 2 weeks we all have to figure out some new voodoo work around to just login, much less STAY logged in...

[____________RedSonja]

I'm just going to cut & paste your recommended new code into what is already there.
Here we go:

10 PRINT AT 10,10;"Anarchy Online"
20 BEEP 1,0: BEEP 1,2: BEEP .5,3: BEEP.5,2: BEEP 1,0
30 BEEP 1,0: BEEP 1,2: BEEP .5,3: BEEP.5,2: BEEP 1,0
40 LET a$=Battle Suit
50 LET b$=Mucho Credito
60 LET c$=Anything but maps!!
mission_reward=something good like a a$
mission_find=c$
mission_return
mission_loot=b$
100 PRINT AT 50,50;"Select your character from the list"

Let me RUN it up and I'll see if it works.

[______________Nietya]

*shudder*

[seloth]

okay this is not a flame or any such thing (insert picture of old computer person spinning in chair laughing).

Have you all ever tried to patch a real server? Especially an IBM one? now you all are used to the client side where the nice computer deamons had you a exe or such file and it does all kinds of things and then tells you to reboot your system, right?

okay IBM patch methodology:
1. get patch bundle
2. count number of sub patches (wow small one only 50!)
3. Read the read mes on each sub patch to determine if you have a need for it. (This will require some guess work as the sysop before took his notes with him)
4. apply the first sub patch you think you need (oh, btw that sub patch is dependant on the one before it, sorry forgot to mention that)
5. do an ipl and see what the sub patch broke, and see which sub patch will fix that issue.
6. repeat steps 4 and 5 until you get to the error message that says contact IBM Support.

If you think I am kidding I am not, though not a programmer in any shape or form. If this program is half as complex as my last mainframe (built in 1990) then do not even breathe on the code else it will change and so will reality. I salute you that Program, your minds are truely an interesting place I bet.

Lyda Carnalla, Colonel
ARES, Division 9 RSGE

p.s. When a young lad was looking for a job a while ago, he said he had a CS degree. Poor old hardware freek that I am asked him "Why do you need a degree in Crash Science?"

[__________griemdaall]

Originally posted by Nietya
On the subject of stable code...

Morrowind comes to mind.

Have you ever played a Bethesda Softworks game when it first ships? Specifically, have you ever played an Elder Scrolls series game before the patches? LOL. I predict Morrowind is a horrible example of potentially good code.. Even the xbox version is probably going to be buggy. Bethesda has never been judged guilty of building stable code, even if they do make some pretty cool RPGs. I personally just have my fingers crossed that Morrowind is only as unstable and buggy as Arena, and not as unstable and buggy as Daggerfall. One can hope, right?

[__________griemdaall]

Originally posted by Seloth
okay IBM patch methodology:
1. get patch bundle
2. count number of sub patches (wow small one only 50!)
3. Read the read mes on each sub patch to determine if you have a need for it. (This will require some guess work as the sysop before took his notes with him)
4. apply the first sub patch you think you need (oh, btw that sub patch is dependant on the one before it, sorry forgot to mention that)
5. do an ipl and see what the sub patch broke, and see which sub patch will fix that issue.
6. repeat steps 4 and 5 until you get to the error message that says contact IBM Support.

Ugh, so glad I don't have to mess with IBMs at my current job. You forgot step 7: Pay IBM Support $400+ an hour to tell you things that the readmes didn't say.

[______________Nietya]

I know Bethesda hasn't had a good track record in the past... I realized that later reading my post, but decided not to bother editing it since if you check with almost ALL of the press reviews of the game, i.e. not a final build, they say that it's extremely stable for being at this stage... unless they add something uber-evil, I doubt they'll break everything before it ships.

If it ships.

Kind of like...

If Neverwinter Nights ships.

Etc.

*sigh*

[__________griemdaall]

Originally posted by Nietya
I know Bethesda hasn't had a good track record in the past... I realized that later reading my post, but decided not to bother editing it since if you check with almost ALL of the press reviews of the game, i.e. not a final build, they say that it's extremely stable for being at this stage... unless they add something uber-evil, I doubt they'll break everything before it ships.

If it ships.

Kind of like...

If Neverwinter Nights ships.

Etc.

*sigh*

Heh, I've seen those hype previews too. Unfortunately I'm a very very old (29) and very jaded gamer. I remember precisely the same hype preview with Daggerfall. Nobody had ever heard of Arena when it came out (I think I'm one of 2 dozen people who bought it.) so there wasn't so much hype then. Don't get me wrong, I've preordered Morrowind, but I'm not expecting much. High expectations are bad with game. :)

[______________Nietya]

Being a jaded gamer is such a bad thing... *sigh*

But I feel your pain. It's rare, nowadays, for me to see a preview for a game, and think "Ok, I'm buying that one the day it comes out."

Actually, that hasn't happened since Quake III for me, and that may have been the nail in the coffin... of course, I AM in college, and money, well, I'm spending someone else's money to go here (i.e. subsidized government money... heh)

Morrowind is trying *really* hard to be a game that I'll buy when it first comes out, but much like you, I'm not sure my expectations are too high...

Another thing I've wondered about... are we just getting old? Back when I was a kid, I could sit down for hours and hours on Dragon Warrior or a Final Fantasy game or.....

/droooool

Street Fighter 2

And play away... nowadays, with modern games, more than about 45 minutes and I'm bored stiff. I thought I was supposed to have a longer attention span now that I'm becoming aged? Perhaps it's just the games we play? I know that I can stay logged in to AO for a good long while, assuming I actually interact with other people, but all the fps/platformer/crpg's that have come out lately just haven't done much for me...

Am I alone in this?

*sigh*

EDIT: I say that I'm aged, because I'm only a wee 21 years old... just old enough to remember the commodore 64... Ye' are kung fu... street fighter 1... those were glorious days. Hell, I even had 2 TRS80's... ick.

[-Zagadka-]

I dunno... all the days of Atari and NES, suffering through Apple DOS pounding modem init strings in MSDOS, looking up from Civ1 having finally killed the god damned [insert nationality] and seeing that it is dark and the dog is sleeping on your foot...

Now, yea, I sit here and play AO for 4 hours, but I know I am playing AO for 4 hours, and I do work while I'm doing it.

Games that fit on one floppy disk could hold your attention for months on end - now, we have games with 8 CDs and more game terrain and people than any of us talk to IRL, with full 3d immersion and surround effects, realistic sun rays and dance moves, and they bore us.

It is enough to make someone go outside.

Well, then come back in and check the latest game reviews.

[___________Obergeist]

Nietya, try Metal Gear Solid 2. Fun game. If you don't have a PS2, I suggest Metal Gear Solid, or Silent Hill for the orginal PS. Fun stuff. Dead or Alive2, Tekken4 and Vitural Fighter4 are good fun fighting games too.

As for code... it can be very, very hard.

Just pray that one day, we won't need patches for this game. Course, by the time that happens...

[___________Leo Nomis]

Originally posted by Obergeist
Just pray that one day, we won't need patches for this game. Course, by the time that happens...

STAR WARS GALAXIES BAYBEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!

[______________Nietya]

SWG is made by Verant. I'll believe all the hype when I see it. For four months straight. Endorsed by God.

As for MGS2, well, I played MGS into the dirt, many many times through, up on extreme, etc. That, and Castlevania:Symphony of the Night is a GODLY game.

MGS2 didn't do it for me. At all. Which I suppose is really wierd, but it just didn't. Fighters don't really anymore either, since there's never anyone that wants to face competition or a challenge when it comes to gaming nowadays... at least that I know locally. It's like everyone's afraid of conflict or something, i don't know...

But regardless, there are some gems left, but just plug in the nintendo and put in Blaster Master, and you'll see what I mean. Or the SNES and Super Metroid. Or Super Mario World.

They have something that modern games coming out don't.

[Divillian]

or genesis with Phantasy Star 4. I almost cried when Alys died.

[______________Nietya]

Final Fantasy 7, with Aeris...

Seeing a group of guys get misty eyed from a video game, well, that's just something else.

[___________Obergeist]

Nietya, think you need a break from games.

Video games have exploded in popularity over the last few years, so the ammount of crap is up. Most publishers, even the good ones flood the market with drek. Finding good enjoyable titles is rough too.

As for good fighters, it's just a matter of finding skilled players.

[______________Nietya]

Think I need a break from games? Other than my general discontent with the current state of game design, I don't see where you come off saying that, but *shrug*.

The current saturation of the market with crap is pretty unfortunate, and something we all have to wade through to find the rare gems... That's just the way it is, and the way it's going to be.

[_________Machiavelli]

I'd put Castlevania Symphony of the Night as the best console game, period. RPG concepts with keypad spell-casting? Granted, Super Metroid did that first, but SotN took the ball and ran with it. I mean, the music? Wow.

Again, I have to agree with Nietya... Verant is Verant. When 4 people from 4 seperate peer groups all indepentently tell me SWG is the best MMO they've ever played, I'll check it out. Granted, I'm saying the same thing about Episode 2, AotC.

If SWG isn't made for the kiddies (read: Jar-Jar-ified) it may be a great game. But so far, I'm planning on playing my NT for the next year, before I get bored with the challenge and try a Fixer.

All in all, I think FC is doing an OK job, but I think they did need to invest more into the original design as has been mentioned. Granted, I've only been playing for a month. My biggest complaint is the interface... it takes a while to learn how to play the game. While I'm used to it (now), I can see how alot of newbies would be turned off to it... anyone used to playing Diablo/D2 knows what I mean. Their click to do everything interface is very easy to learn. If a powerful command line / scripting interface was built into that... it would be an amazing improvement.

I still think it's the best MMO out there, and am looking forward to playing it for some time. And all is said and done, I'm sure they'll learn from all of this as a company, and A02 will rule.

[__________griemdaall]

Originally posted by Nietya
Being a jaded gamer is such a bad thing... *sigh*

But I feel your pain. It's rare, nowadays, for me to see a preview for a game, and think "Ok, I'm buying that one the day it comes out."

Actually, that hasn't happened since Quake III for me, and that may have been the nail in the coffin... of course, I AM in college, and money, well, I'm spending someone else's money to go here (i.e. subsidized government money... heh)

Morrowind is trying *really* hard to be a game that I'll buy when it first comes out, but much like you, I'm not sure my expectations are too high...

Another thing I've wondered about... are we just getting old? Back when I was a kid, I could sit down for hours and hours on Dragon Warrior or a Final Fantasy game or.....

/droooool

Street Fighter 2

And play away... nowadays, with modern games, more than about 45 minutes and I'm bored stiff. I thought I was supposed to have a longer attention span now that I'm becoming aged? Perhaps it's just the games we play? I know that I can stay logged in to AO for a good long while, assuming I actually interact with other people, but all the fps/platformer/crpg's that have come out lately just haven't done much for me...

Am I alone in this?

*sigh*

EDIT: I say that I'm aged, because I'm only a wee 21 years old... just old enough to remember the commodore 64... Ye' are kung fu... street fighter 1... those were glorious days. Hell, I even had 2 TRS80's... ick. :D

Heh, I think the problem is the game, not the gamer. I've been gaming since I was 8-10 years old, and I used to plug away for hours on end at Atari 2600 Combat. I'm going to go out on a limb and say "Games were more fun when you could roll over the score."

I guess that's not precisely true, but to me the truth is that games have been on a decline for the last 2-3 years. The thing that has killed the game industry is the death of innovation and the rise of the 'game developer as rock star' mentality. You used to have to make good games to get good press.

Don't get me wrong, there are still some excellent games out there. I've been playing Grand Theft Auto 3 on my PS2 since I got it mid last year. I still boot up Gran Turismo 3 and pump up my bank account higher and higher occasionally. I reloaded BG2 recently and started playing through it for the 3rd time or so. Recently released Freedom Force is an excellent game, worth more hype than it got. Rollercoaster Tycoon (and addons) hasn't left my hard drive in 2 years, and still gets played biweekly or so.

The death of innovation came when everyone started pumping out sequels instead of making new games that are interesting. Notice that in my list of faves there is only 2 non-sequels? <big sigh>

Oh well, at least as the 'industry gods' are failing one by one, it makes it slightly more likely that someone is going to actually go out on a limb and release an interesting/good game someday soon.

Of course, I can still spend hours and hours playing Dragon Warrior (7) and Final Fantasy (10).. Actually I beat FFx, and I'm probably about 1/4 way through Dragon Warrior 7. I'm going to have to say that part is just you. :)