Let Funcom sell credits, accounts, items!

[Autocratt]

OK, first see what I posted elsewhere on BlackSnow:
_______________________________

Check out Part 6 of www.unknownplayer.com 's article on Exploiters!!!

Looks like Phim and Caldwell were sued by the FTC way back in Oct 2000! In 1999 they had what looked like a legit business, fell on hard times and started keeping customer funds without delivering the goods. At least $77K worth it seems.

Just recently, in Oct 2001 and in this month FTC received a default judgments vs. various defendants.

Looks like Phim had filed bankruptcy in Jan 2001 and was the FTC could not serve process on him for months.

Keeps getting weirder and weirder. I'm waiting for a Mafia connection soon. Which is what we will get if we allow the lucrative sale of these items.
___________________________________________

I'd like to float this idea around. Why not let Funcom sell credits, accounts and stuff directly to the players? Heck they have our credit card numbers already. I think there are definitely players out there that do not have alot of time to play and need to buy their way in but I think they add to the community not detract from it. Who should make money off of this? I think Funcom if anyone.

Buy a level 20 char with Ql 20 armor/implants/weps and 10mil in credits but no IP's used. Why not? I don't care if I play with someone who did this. (It will be weird to have newbie questions coming out of a lvl 100 char but it happens today already )

What about players who want to sell stuff? I think Funcom should let players sell stuff back to them for free playtime at least. (Keeps inflation in check)

OK, support this or flame away! If not BlackSnow, it will be someone else and for $60K/month the Mafia will be interested sooner or later.

[________________cson]

I would seriously pay $2000 for a lvl 200 Soldier with unspent IPs. Then I'd tune him for PvP, and kill all those NTs and Agents that rooted and killed my MA so many times.

[Autocratt]

For $2000 I'll make you a lvl 200 soldier

Seriously, if there is a demand for char like that, money can be made. I'm just saying we can't stop the demand but we can decide who should be making the money.

Have you seen the Fraud forums in www.playerauctions.com? It's pathetic yet it shows what can happen in addition to BlackSnow.

[_______________Valen]

I'm against that idea completely, just as I am with people who sell items and accounts that were acheived through exploiting.

At least if items and levels are achieved legitimately and someone buys them, time and effort was still put into the character. I'm still not a fan of externally buying items or accounts (I've done it once before in another game...wasn't really worth it), but at least this keeps some reasonable balance to the process (someone has to do the work first).

What I don't want is everyone with a few bucks to spend to buy level 100 characters fully equipped, ready to roll.

Why?

1) PvP... argue whether the PvP system works or blows chunks, there's still a PvP element in this game, and as soon as you start diluting it with hordes of high level characters all at once, it will mostly likely only hurt this part of the game (especially when a large number of the "just bought 100's" will likely be more of the ganker then the RP'er).

2) Teaming... I'm finally becoming popular again since I've come back to AO, being in the mid-levels and earning my reputation again. I enjoy being asked several times if I'm available to join different groups...it means I have options. Now, Joe Schmoe, who decides he wants to buy his way into 100's, can just put a little money down, and roll up a high level doc, and all of a sudden my options start decreasing (part of the reason there aren't a lot of high level docs are because of levels 1-99, not 100+).

3) Reward. When you see high level characters now, *most* of the time you can have respect for them because they've gone through the effort to get where they are (unless they are a Blacksnow exploited char), and can now start reaping the reward of that effort. Even more so when *you* are that high level char.

Other reasons too...but the point is... this is an MMORPG. It's purpose is to create an online virtual world to "live" in, and hopefully "roleplay" some. It's meant to be HARD to get to those high levels, and HARD to get those really cool items. It makes them more worth having. This is not DOOM, or Unreal Tournament. You aren't meant to come into the game fully loaded. If someone does not want to spend the effort to gain the levels through time, then this is not the game they should be playing.

I just know that flooding the game with higher level characters "freshly born" would only detract from the gaming experience for the majority of the playerbase. It would turn into a massive Unreal Tournament environment for the rich kids (and yes...I probably fall into that...could afford it if I wanted to, but I don't want to).

[________FileNotFound]

I personaly have NO problem with item sales AS LONG AS THEY ARE LEGITIMATE.

The problem with your concept, is that the items are not 'earned'.

Same with the BS guys. They duped the items. Thus it's not fair and totaly wrong.

If they DID work for ther credits/items etc and legitamtley earned them through true power gaming then yeah I'd say more power to them.

[________________Tuxx]

Although i can see your point, SeraphFire, if Funcom were to start selling game items in this fashion I would leave the game. Not that I don't think it could work, but to change the game environment that drastically would be too much.

It would be different if, from day one, Funcom had advertised that players would be able to purchase loaded characters or upgrade their characters (I believe a game called Eden, or something like that, is going to be this way from the start). But to change just because some players are, and let's be totally honest here, too lazy to build their characters from scratch. Someone saying they don't have time isn't a reason. If you don't have time, mmorpg's are not for you. You should be playing Single-player or smaller online games such as Quake, Unreal, StarCraft, Red Alert and thier like (all fine games and loads of fun). Mmorph's are meant for long term, time consuming play. The majority of players accept this, they enjoy it and they expect it from other players. Allowing players to purchase their way to the top would be an insult at this point.

I do agree that Funcom, or whatever game company, should be the only one making profits directly from their hardwork. In the case of AO, Funcom has chosen to do it from subscriptions and they should continue in that way, in my opinion. If another game company ever decides to do it both by subscription and item/character selling, then the customers will decide if it's a good idea or not.

[Autocratt]

Let's be more specific here, what do you like or not like?

1) Credit selling by Funcom

2) Selling higher lvl characters, if yes what is the max level you would allow to be sold?

3) Item sales?

4) Free game time for players who sell credit/rare items back to Funcom?

BTW, if we are really only talking about a casual player with money to boot I think: A) there won't be many of them; and B) we won't see them very often at all. If we allow players to resell their accounts then I don't see why Funcom cannot sell characters.

I'm new and I'm working hard on my one and only character. I also work full-time and can understand why people want to buy a character. And yes, I agree it would have been great if Funcom spelled this all out in the beginning.

Heck, if Funcom can make 60K per month on this, then Funcom could hire a few extra programmers to make our game better.

[___________xenomorph]

Whats the point in playing a game that has been handed to you?

I for one like the feeling of knowing that my x lvl chr is where he is at from my efforts, haveing the memorys of the great fights and the bad nights of dieing every 5 mins.

The type of person that buys accts for mmorpg's are the same type of person that won't play a game without gameshark. Whats the point in playing at that time, you play a game for a chalenge, whats the excitement in playing something there is no chalenge to? if you want to start playing a game equal to eveyone else try one of these: Counter Strike (hackable), Q3, UT, D2 (hackable), and Return to castle wolfenstine.

[________________cson]

Originally posted by xenomorph
Whats the point in playing a game that has been handed to you?

I for one like the feeling of knowing that my x lvl chr is where he is at from my efforts, haveing the memorys of the great fights and the bad nights of dieing every 5 mins.

The type of person that buys accts for mmorpg's are the same type of person that won't play a game without gameshark. Whats the point in playing at that time, you play a game for a chalenge, whats the excitement in playing something there is no chalenge to? if you want to start playing a game equal to eveyone else try one of these: Counter Strike (hackable), Q3, UT, D2 (hackable), and Return to castle wolfenstine.

I've actually played my MA to lvl 159, I'm tired of being rooted and nuked to death by an NT 20 or 30 levels below me. I just want a pure PvP toon to kill all the NTs.

[_____________Paldorr]

After some thought it's not a bad idea, Seraphfire. Of course, Funcom wouldn't do it, but I wouldn't have any problems with it.

[________________Tuxx]

Well, all personal opinions here

1) Do not like: I, and most players, work very hard for the credits we get. I earn, in game, each and every dime I have (when I first collected over 100k in credits I almost threw a party). Someone who has paid $100 for 100k in credits has in no way earned those credits, in my opinion.

2) Do not like: I work full time as well and try, on occasions, to have a personal life as well. I accepted when I started playing this game that I would have to work by butt off (as I did in UO and EQ) to make it to the higher levels and I would assume that all players understood this as well. To have someone walk in at equal or higher level simply because they got a good bonus this year at work is a slap in the face to me and all the other players in the game.

3) Not sure: Basically I could see this being okay, personally, for simple items like med/nano packs, stems, ammo, etc. I could see paying a little extra a month to make sure my pack was always stocked with the neccessities of life on Rubi-Ka. I would see the problem with weapons, armour and their like. It's basically the whole, "They have't earned it in game" thing again. In the end I would probably be against it.

4) Not sure: My opinion on this would be totally based on how Funcom handled it. The only bad thing I can see coming from it is people camping and hogging things to bring down their monthly bill (but that does happen now for the items anyway). There would need to be limits and such just to protect Funcom. I doubt they would ever do this, though, unless their employees started accepting deflect shields for their salaries.

I consider myself a casual player. I consider myself lucky to get a hour a night to play, sometimes a week can pass between log-ins. I actually don't see the casual gamer being the primary user here. I see the power-gamer or problem-gamer being the primary user. By power-gamer, I mean those who already use exploits, cheats or unfair game tactics and by problem-gamer, I mean griefers and gankers. Although many casual gamers could benefit from such a system, I see it as yet another tool for the cheaters and griefers to make thier lives easier.

If you start a game knowing this system would be in place, that's one thing, but changing it would be something that most players wouldn't stand for, in my opinion.

[_______________Valen]

Let's be more specific here, what do you like or not like?

1) Credit selling by Funcom

Don't like it. Might as well be selling items while you are at it, because with enough credits, you can get just about anything in the game (except for NODROP's). Plus it imbalances things (how? it reduces the value of time and effort some people choose to put into the game because others just spend a little extra cash). However, I don't mind this near as much as "artificially" created characters being sold.

2) Selling higher lvl characters, if yes what is the max level you would allow to be sold?

Personally, wouldn't want any to be sold. I think there's a lot to be said for the learning experience in the first several levels. But if I was forced into a corner, told it was going to happen, and had to put a cap on it.... I'd say level 50 at the highest.

3) Item sales?

I view this as the same as 1, outside of rare items. Rare items I think should never be sold.

4) Free game time for players who sell credit/rare items back to Funcom?

This I wouldn't have any problem with...but it's the opposite of all the other points. 4 removes something in-game for an out-of-game benefit (and removing something worked hard for is a lot different, IMO, than giving something for no effort related to that game). The others are out-of-game activities that affect the in-game experience. If they (the players) don't do this, they'll sell it on ebay anyway.

BTW, if we are really only talking about a casual player with money to boot I think: A) there won't be many of them; and B) we won't see them very often at all. If we allow players to resell their accounts then I don't see why Funcom cannot sell characters.

Problem is power gamers would make use of this as well. Not just casual players. Because people would buy characters just because they can... see cson's post above as an example (nothing against you cson...if the option were available, I might do the same ... I just prefer the option wasn't even available).

I'm less against people selling chars they leveled themselves because someone did the work in-game, the buyer had to live with the mistakes and design the seller did, and this keeps the number of chars being sold at high levels down to a minimum. Besides, it would be very difficult to prevent this. It's things like what Blacksnow do, the massive farming of characters (in particular through exploiting) and handing over "templates" to new players I'm not a big fan of.

I'm new and I'm working hard on my one and only character. I also work full-time and can understand why people want to buy a character.

I work full time as well (and then some). Valen was created in July, after about a month of playing some other chars. I've taken some months off, and I've played a lot some months when I had the time....and I'm just at level 91 now. He's the only one I've *seriously* played since July other than my level 41 agent who I haven't played since patch 12.6. Anyway, I guess what I'm getting to is that you don't have to level fast to have fun in this game. There's a lot of low level content (more actually then high level right now).

Heck, if Funcom can make 60K per month on this, then Funcom could hire a few extra programmers to make our game better.

I'm definitely not against them making more money to improve the game. But I think that putting in characters that are artificially created (that is, higher than level 1 to start) would detract from the intended gaming experience. And quite frankly, would likely significantly reduce the amount of time I play AO, if not eventually cause me to cancel (the game becomes less fun when there's already a mass of people running around at level 200.... Just think about it.... powergamers start buying high level characters just so they can camp spawns.... man would that get ugly).

Anyway, the reasons I'm against the above are my personal desires for the gaming experience (maybe somewhat idealistic desires, but hey...I've been playing MMORPG's and some of their ancestors, MUDs (including coding/running one), for over 10 years on and off... it's the main type of game I like).

There's a value in only having people who worked hard for it to be in the high level game. And there's plenty of enjoyment to get out of the game to those who don't have the time or desire to get there. As soon as you start selling character templates that include "pick your level", you significantly reduce the whole purpose of the level system built into the game. (and yes...this is the same argument I would use against companies like Blacksnow in how they actually do affect other player's gaming experience).

[Autocratt]

Thanks Domu for the detailed reply (edit and Valen too )

As a one character account, I too enjoyed earning every credit and item (although I admit to receiving a few gifts and charity such as credits, wrangles, implants made for you or just very low prices on some items from some very nice players, love that about the player community.) The effort to get there however has caused some contention in my RL though.

But should you really care so much about how another player got his stuff? Heck, I know alot of people who were born rich or got an inheritance but I don't resent them. It seems like... jealousy basically. Shouldn't the casual player turn around and be jealous at all the time other people have to play. I know in Shattered Galaxy it's become a HUGE complaint, people who have time are the only ones who get ahead, sniff, sniff, and then the game resets.

A community of only people who earned their characters would be great but in RL that's not ideal. It's a game and I want people to play. I don't want crap like BSI.

Well, it's a suggestion. I don't like the leveling treadmill and I liked OE because it was complex.

Maybe limit character buys to lvl 50. PPL will still WTB higher level characters anyway.

As to griefers and gankers buying their way in, dunno how much that would occur. Some will but hopefully it will be small.

[___________xenomorph]

Originally posted by cson


I've actually played my MA to lvl 159, I'm tired of being rooted and nuked to death by an NT 20 or 30 levels below me. I just want a pure PvP toon to kill all the NTs.

Try rolling a new toon then, just because you got 1 chr to 159 does not give you the right to BUY a new chr. Look at my sig I have played alot of diff prof's. And yes the highest is my NT but they are not gods as you make them out to be. every prof is supposed to be weak compared to another in pvp. If my NT faces a Doc, Trader, Enf, MP, and so on in pvp I stand no chance of winning. But since pvp is broken I don't do it anymore.

I for one call BS to your story of a NT 20-30 lvls below you killing u, I dont have enough ips at my NT's current lvl to use a good weapon so its nano only and I run out before my enemy is dead (because of pvp 40%cap). Thats why I stoped playing my NT.

Oh btw you can break root if you didn't know already ether by general debuffs or a MA only buff (I will not say so it won't get taken out of game, it is 1 of the MA's 1st self only buffs hint hint) and it breaks root everytime.

I am not trying to flame you just pointing out my opinion's

[________________cson]

Originally posted by xenomorph


Try rolling a new toon then, just because you got 1 chr to 159 does not give you the right to BUY a new chr. Look at my sig I have played alot of diff prof's. And yes the highest is my NT but they are not gods as you make them out to be. every prof is supposed to be weak compared to another in pvp. If my NT faces a Doc, Trader, Enf, MP, and so on in pvp I stand no chance of winning. But since pvp is broken I don't do it anymore.

I for one call BS to your story of a NT 20-30 lvls below you killing u, I dont have enough ips at my NT's current lvl to use a good weapon so its nano only and I run out before my enemy is dead (because of pvp 40%cap). Thats why I stoped playing my NT.

Oh btw you can break root if you didn't know already ether by general debuffs or a MA only buff (I will not say so it won't get taken out of game, it is 1 of the MA's 1st self only buffs hint hint) and it breaks root everytime.

I am not trying to flame you just pointing out my opinion's

Jesus Christ, why do all NTs think they know it all? I do have other characters. I've got a lvl 30 Trader with a QL 70 armor and implants and QL 90 Vector. He kills everything his level, including other chars, in 3 shots. I can probably get him to lvl 74 in less than a week, put him in some QL 140ish implants and a QL 190 Waltzing Queen. It's getting to the higher levels that take so much of my precious time. Lvls 75-200 is a wide range, and you pretty much don't have a shot unless you're 150ish now with so many high lvl chars running around. If I were a lifeless geek with acne problems and social anxiety disorder, I would have plenty of time to level up all profession to lvl 150+. Unfortunately, I do not. I work a full time job, a girlfriend, and a social life, and 2k is a drop in the bucket compared to the time I would have to invest in getting a soldier to lvl 200.

[_______________Valen]

Originally posted by SeraphFire
But should you really care so much about how another player got his stuff? Heck, I know alot of people who were born rich or got an inheritance but I don't resent them. It seems like... jealousy basically.

Not so much jealousy in my case as the fact that I would then have to compete with them. Unique items/mobs, finding groups, bidding on hard to get gear, finding good hunting areas (outside of missioning), PvP, etc.....

I have no problem competing with someone who worked their way to 150 and now is standing next to me competing for the kill, or taking a spot that I could have had in a group.

But if that same 150 bought his character yesterday.....

[___________xenomorph]

Originally posted by cson


Jesus Christ, why do all NTs think they know it all? I do have other characters. I've got a lvl 30 Trader with a QL 70 armor and implants and QL 90 Vector. He kills everything his level, including other chars, in 3 shots. I can probably get him to lvl 74 in less than a week, put him in some QL 140ish implants and a QL 190 Waltzing Queen. It's getting to the higher levels that take so much of my precious time. Lvls 75-200 is a wide range, and you pretty much don't have a shot unless you're 150ish now with so many high lvl chars running around. If I were a lifeless geek with acne problems and social anxiety disorder, I would have plenty of time to level up all profession to lvl 150+. Unfortunately, I do not. I work a full time job, a girlfriend, and a social life, and 2k is a drop in the bucket compared to the time I would have to invest in getting a soldier to lvl 200.

WOW!! a lvl 30 OE trader you are the man! and you can lvl him in under a week, you are my hero.

omg you have a G-freind, full time job, and social life what is that like?

Yeah I'm a geek with no life, no g-friend, no money, no job and lots of acne. How did you know? Who told you? Did you call cleo? Did she tell you?


Maybe you should stick to fps style games, since you don't have the time for Ao with your busy life and all. Even better I know the game just for you "monster rancher" since all you care about is haveing a high lvl chr to pvp with. and you can use gameshark on it to auto load a god chr.

This game is not about who can get to lvl 200 1st and have the title of I ownezz you. It's a mmorpg not deathmatch 101. PVP is fun but that is not what the game is all about. People like you is what is paying BS it's 60k a month income, I'm so proud of you.

[________________Tuxx]

It seems like... jealousy basically.

Sure, there's a little bit of that. I attribute that to good, old human nature.

But I see character buying (and to a lesser degree armour buying) less as someone being born rich or recieving an inheritance, but would equite it more to someone buying a Doctorate or a Medal of Honour. Sure, it can happen and probably has, but it's still not right. By coming into a game like this, there are certain expectations that players have from the game and from other players. I, for one, expect every player I meet to have earned what they have, either through hard work or from being a good person (as in the case of gifts, etc.).

I don't disagree with the idea as a whole, just in the case of an on-going mmorpg. I think, in the right game, it would be a god idea and even I would consider buying a few levels just to get past some early things. But, when you start with one type of fundamental game-play philosophy, a sudden switch to another one would be a poor choice to make. Almost as bad if Funcom suddenly decide to remove PvP all together.

Cson, I'm sorry, but if you have no time to level a character in a game designed for charcater growth, then why are you playing a mmorpg? That is the whole point of this game and others like it. Honestly, I play Unreal for PvP and AO for character development because that are what they are each good at.
I wish I could remember the name of that one game that will have choices similiar to your ideas. If I remember corrctly, I read they were thinking about having actual gambling in the game as well. Now that would be a bad time to run into a griefer!

[________________cson]

Originally posted by xenomorph


WOW!! a lvl 30 OE trader you are the man! and you can lvl him in under a week, you are my hero.

omg you have a G-freind, full time job, and social life what is that like?

Yeah I'm a geek with no life, no g-friend, no money, no job and lots of acne. How did you know? Who told you? Did you call cleo? Did she tell you?


Maybe you should stick to fps style games, since you don't have the time for Ao with your busy life and all. Even better I know the game just for you "monster rancher" since all you care about is haveing a high lvl chr to pvp with. and you can use gameshark on it to auto load a god chr.

This game is not about who can get to lvl 200 1st and have the title of I ownezz you. It's a mmorpg not deathmatch 101. PVP is fun but that is not what the game is all about. People like you is what is paying BS it's 60k a month income, I'm so proud of you.

Do you even pay attention? How old are you - 15, 16? . You missed my point entirely. Just trying to point out that some people DO have lives outside of AO. You want role play? I got your role play for you right here.

[Autocratt]

Maybe you were thinking of Project Entropia where they offer a free game but make money by selling credits? Or Underlight which offers a premium character (abilities?!) based on a higher subscription rate.

Project Entropia is probably what you are thinking of. But that is going to be one messed up game. They envision you can actually redeem your credit BACK for money and you will loot ppl you kill for their credits. Now that is going be a griefer's paradise.

(See noob who just bought $10 of credit, kill, loot, redeem credits for $10! Just another form of theft in my opinion!)

I think the Underlight game is offering the premium accounts just recently and are successful. So if Funcom does it right, it could be possible. Unlike EQ Legends, the Underlight accounts are in the same server.

Well, let me put this issue in one light, Funcom can:

1) Ban all selling of accounts/credits/items. Going to be very hard to police especially since this will drive up prices in the "Black Market" and give ppl more incentive.
2) Roll with it as I suggested and make some money with some grief from players.
3) Do nothing and let BSI-types do as they please.

I don't think you will ever prevent credit/account selling, it's impossible and you'd waste so many resources police-ing it. I have heard of hackers stealing account passwords from legit players, loot the char naked or try and sell them. Horrible.

Are we in effect "legalizing drugs" here? Maybe. The analogy may be close, same type of arguments for and against. And in a democracy, it is up to the people (or players here) to make that call.