AC Suxors

[Isisnorfret]

Its just scanny to have AC take off a fixed amount of damage per hit.

If AC is still going to take off a certain amount of damage per hit, then make faster weapons do more damage to compensate.

Or, just do what you should do, and implement a logical and fair way for armor to reduce damage, I.E., PERCENTAGE. Or give armor a broad range of how much damage it might reduce per hit, instead of taking off 200, make it reduce anywhere between 50-250 per hit. Thus, faster weapons wouldn't always hit good, but would occasionlly find a way through the armor.

Seeing damage consistently the same number is totally tasteless, there is supposed to be a sense of randomness to this game, a roll of the dice, "X mob hit you for Y damage" where Y is always the same is dull.

[_______________Hiero]

?

The amount of damage you hit at is more or less randomly generated number between the weapons min and max damage rate. There are other factors in this of course. But yes the AC absorbs a "fixed" rate of damage. But seeing as the inital hit was more or less randomly generated...then the end result should be varying degrees of damage you are hitting the mob at.

Only two reasons exist for you doing the same consistant damage.
1. The mob is too high for the level you are at.
2. The weapon you are using against the mob is of too low QL compaired to your level.

Oh, and there is even a third...

3. A bug within the game that is causing certain humaniod NPC's to only take minimum damage all the time.

Personally I think AO works damage out in a fair manner. (With execption of the bugs)...some people have difficulity in equiping their characters correctly though.

Post your profession, level, weapon type and QL and I will try and give you some advice...

[Isisnorfret]

Mostly I was talking about how the mobs hit for the same amount of damage every hit. I switched to a slower weapon, from a Merchant Warblade to a Haxor, but that means I wasted 300 points in fast attack. Its just dumb how faster weapons are so disadvantaged due to the fact the AC takes a fixed amount of damage every hit.

[Meetshield]

I agree, its just wrong how much more effective the big damage slow weapons are. I would much rather use 2 weapons, hitting in a flurry of blows, but why when you just gimp yourself by doing that. Guess I will be like every other enforcer out there and use the big sledges... sigh I was hoping this game would avoid the cookie cutter characters like EQ is famous for, but not when they make that much of a difference in damage between the two weapon types. Good idea Funcom - having many areas of specialization, Bad idea Funcom - making one type of specialization clearly superior to all others.

[_______________Hiero]

Well I am not sure what level you guys are...or what your equipment is. Juding by the fact that one of you said you "wasted" 300 points...I can't imagine you are very high. Later in the game you will realise that "wasting" 10k ip is no real biggie...

I have a level 41 Solitus Enforcer...

She has some QL59 Squiblers (The type that require a lot of IP spent on psycho-modi...they are blue in colour) These weapons also require the Piercing skill...Her armour at the mo' is about QL64'ish...I can equip all this with self buffs...the character is not twinked.

Now...I can go up against level 45'ish enforcers with approx level 75+ QL hammers in PVP with equivilant AC...5 times out of 10 I will beat them flat into the ground. This mainly is because of the sheer speed the weapons can hit at. (Two hits every 3 seconds or so...each hitting for appox 30 - 55 damage with Crits well over 100).

Against mobs she is even better with average hits at 75+ and Crits at around 150.

The key when up against high lvl players and mobs is to put the Agg/Def slider at either Full Def or at 25% Def... In this way...I have lasted against an uber twinked level 48 Atrox Enf with 1700AC and QL98 Hammer for nearly 2 mins...obviously I lost...but the fact remains it wasn't an instant death fight.

So no...I don't agree with either of you. AO as the ability to make non-generic characters that are equally as good as the "cookie" characters. All that it requires is a bit of thought, some time, and a decent amount of effort...

I will gladly give some tips if anyone asks for them...

[________________Miir]

I agree, its just wrong how much more effective the big damage slow weapons are.

The exact opposite was true for Everquest for the first 2.5 years.
A Mosscovered Twig dealt 4 times more damage than an Executioners Axe.


PH33R TEH MIGHTY TW1G!!

[_______zeroframerate]

Originally posted by Hiero
Well I am not sure what level you guys are...or what your equipment is. Juding by the fact that one of you said you "wasted" 300 points...I can't imagine you are very high. Later in the game you will realise that "wasting" 10k ip is no real biggie...

I think he really means wasting IP to get his Fast Attack skill up to 300.

[hexxia]

we;; I thought I'd get my MA to use a high level MTI instad of a ql37 wall blade

so... I put all of my lvl 57 IPs into 1h edged to use a ql 50 MTI sword

result? the MTI hits for 17 every time. *sigh* the ql 37 wall blade is much better. it seems I never hit for anything other than minimum damage (3 in the case of the MTI)

[_______________Hiero]

Originally posted by zeroframerate


I think he really means wasting IP to get his Fast Attack skill up to 300.

Ok makes more sense.

[____________Phinnias]

I played today in the first time in a few weeks. I was frustrated to see that when I grabbed an even mission (as usual) I could not complete it. I ran into a yellow adventurer who I could not kill. I spent about 5 minutes fighting it, used about a half dozen nano kits during the fight, countless heals, was fully buffed with everything I had, but I had to run in the end. I got him down to about 10 percent life left, but I couldn't finish him, and he didn't even heal himself!

I am a 47 Adventurer with 2 fire based pistols, Q80 and Q65 (I don't want to hear the pistols suck responses, I did fine up until this patch).

Geez, bring back the insane chain casting NPCS that we all hated so much! They were easier than this!

[telanon]

Low delay weapons are a joke.

As a Fixer I use a Mausser...like all of us do because all the other SMG options for us are low damage, low delay. And they suck!

I tried a Enriched Urianium Sprayer a while back. It was QL50 or so, damage was like 1-17, combined recharge/delay or 1.3 - I put it in and did 1 point of damage every time..I almost got my whole team killed. Over the course of one fight I did make 50 points of damage.

Comparitively, my Mausser hit for mid 40-60 and burst the occasional 200 or so. The delay for it is 4.0 secs. In the first volley alone I would have done 3 times the amount of damage the sprayer would have done in the entire fight.

Thats why every single fixer uses a Mausser...sad

-Ballpin

[Isisnorfret]

zeroframerate is right, I have 300 points in fast attack, which equals ~ 40-50k ip.

I'd really like to see faster weapons made viable. As for your protector squibbler theory, I just fought a dude who used Protector executioners and he did 3 points of damage to me every time. (me lvl 24 him lvl 25.) They guy you fought must have had crap for energy ac.

[_______________Hiero]

Originally posted by Sandrix
zeroframerate is right, I have 300 points in fast attack, which equals ~ 40-50k ip.

I'd really like to see faster weapons made viable. As for your protector squibbler theory, I just fought a dude who used Protector executioners and he did 3 points of damage to me every time. (me lvl 24 him lvl 25.) They guy you fought must have had crap for energy ac.

Fought more than one guy...and like I say 5 times out of 10 I do ok... I don't believe that they all had/have crap Energy AC...(and there are too many for me to count or remember)...

[Isisnorfret]

My lvl 24 guy just fought a lvl 28 guy who was using a sword of sir galahad. He only did 6 points to me each hit. Now, with 700 energy ac, of course I should be able take a lot of abuse, but I'm dang near invincible against any kind of fast weapon, while I'm still vulnerable to slow weapons. Look around at what kind of enforcers have pvp titles. The ones with beams, hammers, or dual rider execs.

Hell, I saw a lvl 74 guy using dual sleekblasters doing 13 points of damage a hit to mobs.

Its sad to see that there is so much weapon variety, but so little choice if you want to be effective..

[___________Gunbarrel]

The problem as Ballpin correctly pointed out is that a lot of fast attack weapons have crappy minimum damage stats. This is what makes them so inneffective at higher levels.

It is no good having 10 attacks to your friends 2, if your attacks are doing 1 point of damage and his are doing a minimum of 80 or something.

I'm not an expert on enforcer weapons but pay close attention to the minimum damage and crit stats or you'll look good flickering away in a blur of motion but be doing no real damage. Guess thats why enforcers choose a slow plodder like the hammers and soldiers use that steiner thingy.

[Isisnorfret]

Not to be nitpicky gunbarrel but I think you mean to say maximum damage Hammers have lowest minimum in the game, its low max damage weapons that get nerfed by ac.

[telanon]

Gun is right, in order for low damage, low delay weapons to be even marginally usefully the min and max damage have to be adjusted...

Example: A weapon that hit for (10-20) with a delay of 1.0 (DPS of 15) would be compairable and a viable alternitive for (1-60) dly 4.0 weapon. (DPS of 15).

With a higher min damage, the AC wouldnt make low dam/low delay weapons so weak.

-Ballpin

[Isisnorfret]

Your example doesn't account for AC reduction or for weapon skill. I'll set up this scenario trying to follow the guidelines you set up..

Weapon A does 10-20 damage each hit, and hits twice as fast as Weapon B.
Weapon B does 1-60 damage a hit.

Just by simple math, you can see that A has an avg 15 points a hit, and B has 30, and since A hits twice as fast, then they have the same average damage.

Its not as simple as that though, throw in AC and weapon skill and its a whole different picture.

Lets say the opponent's armor reduces 15 points of damage a hit.

For weapon skill, I'll throw that in as increase of 1.5 (its a lot more than that at later lvls.)

Weap A: (10-20) hits 10 times, averaging 15. After factoring in weapon skill, the average hit is 22.5. Subtract 15 from that for ac, and you end up doing minimum damage, 10. So 10 hits of 10 is 100 damage total.

Weap B: (1-60) hits 5 times, for an average of 30*1.5, or 45 a hit. Subtract 15 for the armor and you get 30 per hit average, which after 5 hits is 150 total damage.

From this you can derive that the more your weapon skill increases the more you'll miss out for using a fast weapon. This is backed up by the popular adage "Pistols suck at high lvls."

If you raise the minimum damage of the faster weapon, as you suggest, from 10 to 15, then the total damages would be even, BUT this will not hold true as ppl go up in lvl. That would only make faster weapons better then slow weapons at low lvls, while slow weapons would still be better at higher lvls.

That is why I do not think raising minimum damage is enough, it is a temporary fix and would not change much at higher lvls. I seriously think that the way that AC works should be completely rethought.

[telanon]

I agree that AC is the root of the problem.

But in my example Weapon A did damage 4 times as fast (albiet the minium everytime) which is why it is more viable as an alternitive to slow delay, high damage weapons.

You have to have a friggin PHD in Quatum Physics I think to understand fully the damage calculation formula...

I dont think all weapons should be equal, but having the damage tables so much in favor of slow delay weapons is a joke

-Ballpin