A point concerning PvP/Trader/NT balance and 14.2+

[Razzitazz]

Beat me to it Garzu. I think the fact that i can solo really high missions (hell I can do a 212 if I want to spend 1 mil on rechargers) is Funcoms nasty joke on how we may be "the best solo profession in the game at higher levels".

They tricked us ya see.

[Kuro]

This right here says it all:

Originally posted by Garzu

Dont care for pvm...

You don't care for PvM, yet the majority of the game is PvM. It's not PvP, which you are focused on.

Originally posted by Garzu

When that is said, I want to inform you htat the debuffs will be GREATLY boosted after the OE patch... Infact, it will be so great that you will litteraly more than half my AMS (not nano skills) when you stack debuffs for 400 points. Which leads to penalties up my ass.... not only will hte weapon itself have penalties, but my AMS vs your DMS will be extremely low, infact less than half your DMS if you max it + if you use your +110 evade buff, I guess you will have about 900 DMS vs my 400 AMS.... at the same time you increase your AMS vs my DMS... making it hard to even hit you with a bullet, and much harder to do a crit, at the same time you will get a higher chance to crit, cause your AMS is increased vs my DMS.

And, pets will be disabled if you manage to get the debuff off before I can send my pet on you...

And we have nano skills, which you can lower from 60%-40%...

all of it in TWO stacked debuffs which you can execute and land in about 4-5 secs, both of them...

All this applies to PvP and your profession. Yet you want a change that affects PvP, PvM, and every profession that plays in a team. To reduce your vulnerability to a profession that can debuff your nanoskills. Just...Go away.

[Loretta]

I used to debate Garzu on nerfs as vigorously as anyone else. But this time I believe he has a point as to traders in PvP.

Around lvl 75 a trader should be able to cast standard ransacks/deprives, right? The standard ransack/deprive add 87 to the trader skills. At the same time, they remove 129 from the opponent (I'm not using major ones since I can't assume that a trader has stacked deprives/ransacks)

Lets talk about LVL 75 weapon users for a second. If we assume about 550 in weapon skills at that time (buffed/planted - optimistic). A 129 ransack/deprive (standard) will lower that weapon skill by 23%. At the same time, the trader's weapon skills would go up by 16%*

Now, the OE patch is going to allow for 20% over equipping. But check this out. With the 23% drop in skill, you can be under-equipped by up to 3%, and still incure an additional 25% penalty to your skills.

From this example, that's up to 47% drop in your weapon skills vs your opponent, for the duration of the fight, and does not even include the additional 16% the trader has received from the plunder. I can see a problem with that.

And please don't flame me for choosing an example. You can easily extrapolate it to my LvL 145 soldier, who could self swap QL 200 gamma beamer around 130 and still has to buff to do that because of level caps.

The team in pvp argument is mute. If I'm in a team, I could have any combination of classes which are uber at the moment. To stretch this to the limit, imagine a team of 6 traders; one casting wrangles for the rest, the others ransacking/depriving; all healing.

P.S. Just saw your follow up Kuroshio, and it's not clear to me how to fix this in PvP, and not in PvM as not to break/nerf the trader class. I'm all open to suggestions, but I believe that the OE patch may make traders very powerful in PvP.

Perhaps a way to solve the problem would be to replace the 20%/-25% step function currently proposed by funcom, and replace it with something much more sane. Several good alternatives have been proposed, but all shutdown. Maybe now is the time to argue that this be changed. If it won't, and given the past history of Funcom gimping classes in the name of PvP balance, I'm scared that traders will be hit with a nerf bat as well.

[Nullifax]

Hey Garzu, if you think Traders are so powerful and that your NT is so nerfed, make a Trader and stop whining.

[_______________Garzu]

Originally posted by Nozzzs
You have this uncanny ability to forget details about traders that don't suit your taste. For example, it was explained to you that deprive type nanos have an 8-10 second casting time each. Without flinching you later insist that it's unfair how a trader can use two debuffs in 5 seconds. Also, it was pointed out that, when traders use wrangles they are horribly debuffed themselves, therefore, their effectiveness to teams pales to that of the MP buffs. (you see, traders also heal, and do crowd control, not to mention crit. All of these things go out the window while wrangles are running) You, however, casually manage to forget that part in your cocky reply "apples and apples, oranges and oranges" (I paraphrase)

This is starting to amuse me... ppl seems to have NO knowledge at all about simple AO game mechanics, to top it, they dont even read the replies thoroughly. Oki oki, I said it took 5 secs to LAND and stack both divest and plunder... I was wrong, it takes 6.5 secs for advanced, to LAND and stack both divest and plunder.

And what is all that BS about wrangles??? I do know very well traders DO NOT continously wrangle through out the mission. You obviously seeem to miss the point... ALL I am saying is that wrangles can do the same job as mochams... only faster... NO need to continously wrangle through out the mission just because the MA needs one to cast UVC, a wrangle in the beggining of the mission is enough.

Originally posted by Nozzzs
You claim to seek "balance" and then insist that only the nano skill part of the Trader debuff be removed, admitting this is because of the way it affects nukers. You don't care if the debuff stacks with the new OE effects on soldiers, causing horrible imbalance to another class. You are a hypocrite. You say things because they promote your self-serving cause with no attention to logic, clarity, decency, or common sense. You unveil your insecurities with every post. It's sad reading your rants and, I admit, I have been forced to skim them in order to tolerate them.
There are countless more examples of your many cinfusions but I will not waste my time researching your posts more. The reader has simply to scroll back....

"Effects nukers"... How many times do I have to repeat myself? After the OE patch it will hurt EVERYBODY very badly. I didnt cry for nerf of those debuffs before FC made the 14.2 patch notes official... And its funny you say it, you only "skim" my posts... no wonder you continously fail to see my points. But I do think its a mystery I never have resisted any of the traders debufffs, not even from lvl 75s.

And for the rest of your crap, I dont care to respond, or read it, you have proven you are just another ignorant self loving poster in these forums.


Dont have time to respond to Kurs posts today, coming up tomorrow

[Redhill]

If nano resist worked...

[Nullifax]

I think nano resist doesn't work with the same mechanics of evades. Instead I think it works on the same mechanics as parry. That's why mobs parry attacks all the time, and likewise they counter nanos all the time, however I have never once seen a player parry, and only a couple times have I seen a player counter a nano.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Garzu


This is starting to amuse me... ppl seems to have NO knowledge at all about simple AO game mechanics, to top it, they dont even read the replies thoroughly. Oki oki, I said it took 5 secs to LAND and stack both divest and plunder... I was wrong, it takes 6.5 secs for advanced, to LAND and stack both divest and plunder.

And what is all that BS about wrangles??? I do know very well traders DO NOT continously wrangle through out the mission. You obviously seeem to miss the point... ALL I am saying is that wrangles can do the same job as mochams... only faster... NO need to continously wrangle through out the mission just because the MA needs one to cast UVC, a wrangle in the beggining of the mission is enough.

Yah, that covers the MA that needs a wrangle to cast UVC. What about the doctor that wants to use healing nanos off his level or nanotechnician that wants to use nukes off his level? These are nanos that demand execution when they're needed. That means before, during, and after combat. There is no "I can't wrangle the doctor for another 20 seconds so can you try to make those last 10 hp last that long?".

The team that relies on a wrangled doctor's or adventurer's healing abilities is one begging to get smacked. A team that relies on an NT's wrangled nuking ability is in the same boat. There is a difference between a 1 usage nano like UVC and nanos that demand usage throughout the team's existance, like heals or nukes or calms.

[_______________Garzu]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


Yah, that covers the MA that needs a wrangle to cast UVC. What about the doctor that wants to use healing nanos off his level or nanotechnician that wants to use nukes off his level? These are nanos that demand execution when they're needed. That means before, during, and after combat. There is no "I can't wrangle the doctor for another 20 seconds so can you try to make those last 10 hp last that long?".

The team that relies on a wrangled doctor's or adventurer's healing abilities is one begging to get smacked. A team that relies on an NT's wrangled nuking ability is in the same boat. There is a difference between a 1 usage nano like UVC and nanos that demand usage throughout the team's existance, like heals or nukes or calms.

I KNOW THIS!!! Only a stupid team would force the trader to continously wrangle the team, the team would loose the best team healer in the game (better than docs) if they did that.


And whaaa whaaa whaaa! Whine whine whine! Traders is so powerful, and needs to be rebalanced with the rest. I have proven this at least 10 times now, but I repeat:

Traders have the best team heals, best roots, best dmg, best buffs and debuffs in the GAME!!!

After the OE patch, the trader will NO LONGER only disable the nano casters and nano skills, they will ALSO disable their weapons.... not only the nano casters weapons but also enfs and Solds.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Garzu


I KNOW THIS!!! Only a stupid team would force the trader to continously wrangle the team, the team would loose the best team healer in the game (better than docs) if they did that.


And whaaa whaaa whaaa! Whine whine whine! Traders is so powerful, and needs to be rebalanced with the rest. I have proven this at least 10 times now, but I repeat:

Traders have the best team heals, best roots, best dmg, best buffs and debuffs in the GAME!!!

After the OE patch, the trader will NO LONGER only disable the nano casters and nano skills, they will ALSO disable their weapons.... not only the nano casters weapons but also enfs and Solds.

There's too much inflated bs about how the trader profession really works swimming around in your head to fix it all out.

1. Doctors have better heals than traders. They have a higher max healing and cost less nanopoints than team heals availible to a trader with equal skill investment. Nevermind that in order to heal, the trader must give up his own hp to do so while furthering raising aggro with mobs (because they hate healing). Exaggeration #1 = GONE
2. Fixers have better roots than traders. Both professions have single target and AoE roots. But fixer roots last much longer, cost less IP to raise (traders requiring equal skill in 2 nanoskills versus fixers requiring requring one nanoskill to be around 70% of the primary nanoskill), and have a lower resist rate than Trader roots (Fixer AoE roots having a resist as low as 70% vs trader 100%). Exaggeration #2 = Gone.
3. Trader buffs require the sacrifice of their own skills in order to buff anyone else's skills. Essentially gimping themselves (which I have no problem doing) while boosting their team. Trader buffs also wear off in 3 minutes compared to buffs that last up to an hour, making it a more likely occurance for a trader skill buff wearing off during combat. No other profession has these limitations on their buffs. If you consider a buff that will wear off in 3 minutes while gimping another member of your team "The best", you need help. Exaggeration #3 = Gone (though it is debatable since it not a straight numeric comparison like others).
4. Traders are, hands down, the best debuffers in the game under the current mechanics. No arguement here.

But all of this really isn't important. What is important is you are talking about the capacity of the profession in solo PvP as if that the only scenario that exists in AO. This is not true and everyone knows it. Everyone also knows that solo PvP makes up the minority of the scenarios in AO. Further, you want to change the the mechanics of the profession in a way that would have drastic effects on solo PvM, team PvP, and team PvM. Everyone here can also count. That's changing the majority, represented by 3 different gameplay styles, to overfix an imbalance in 1 gameplay style...

Again: Just go away...

[_______________Garzu]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


There's too much inflated bs about how the trader profession really works swimming around in your head to fix it all out.

1. Doctors have better heals than traders. They have a higher max healing and cost less nanopoints than team heals availible to a trader with equal skill investment. Nevermind that in order to heal, the trader must give up his own hp to do so while furthering raising aggro with mobs (because they hate healing). Exaggeration #1 = GONE
2. Fixers have better roots than traders. Both professions have single target and AoE roots. But fixer roots last much longer, cost less IP to raise (traders requiring equal skill in 2 nanoskills versus fixers requiring requring one nanoskill to be around 70% of the primary nanoskill), and have a lower resist rate than Trader roots (Fixer AoE roots having a resist as low as 70% vs trader 100%). Exaggeration #2 = Gone.
3. Trader buffs require the sacrifice of their own skills in order to buff anyone else's skills. Essentially gimping themselves (which I have no problem doing) while boosting their team. Trader buffs also wear off in 3 minutes compared to buffs that last up to an hour, making it a more likely occurance for a trader skill buff wearing off during combat. No other profession has these limitations on their buffs. If you consider a buff that will wear off in 3 minutes while gimping another member of your team "The best", you need help. Exaggeration #3 = Gone (though it is debatable since it not a straight numeric comparison like others).
4. Traders are, hands down, the best debuffers in the game under the current mechanics. No arguement here.

But all of this really isn't important. What is important is you are talking about the capacity of the profession in solo PvP as if that the only scenario that exists in AO. This is not true and everyone knows it. Everyone also knows that solo PvP makes up the minority of the scenarios in AO. Further, you want to change the the mechanics of the profession in a way that would have drastic effects on solo PvM, team PvP, and team PvM. Everyone here can also count. That's changing the majority, represented by 3 different gameplay styles, to overfix an imbalance in 1 gameplay style...

Again: Just go away...

They are all to powerful in teams too... traders do have the best team heals ( MPs got best nuke... doesnt matter if it costs more nano, by the time the enemy is down, you are not empty anyway). Best buffs, without any doubt at all, if I had a choice between the traders buffs vs any of the other professions buffs, I would choose traders = best buffs. Roots, nobody resists them anyway, and they are AE = best. The debuffs is also the best.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Garzu



They are all to powerful in teams too... traders do have the best team heals ( MPs got best nuke... doesnt matter if it costs more nano, by the time the enemy is down, you are not empty anyway). Best buffs, without any doubt at all, if I had a choice between the traders buffs vs any of the other professions buffs, I would choose traders = best buffs. Roots, nobody resists them anyway, and they are AE = best. The debuffs is also the best.

1. You consider a buff that require tons of preparation, the reduction of ability for a team member, and the certainty they will drop in a short amount of time (possibly during combat) without hope of renewal for another 14 or more seconds the best buffs availible? Your logic has lost me.
2. How do you figure a trader's team heals are better than a doctor's team heal which can heal more damage, cost less nanopoints, and doesn't damage the doctor when using it compared to a trader with equal nanoskills using a team heal? Your logic has now somehow evaded GPS tracking systems and lost a great deal of people that were depending on high technology to keep up.
3. A fixer can use his first AoE root when his T&S is 36 and his SenseImp is 48. A trader can use his first AoE root when his T&S is 118 and his PyshoMod is 118. The fixer's first AoE root nano lasts over 9 minutes. The traders first AoE root last 36 seconds. The fixer's first AoE root has a defensive skill of 80%. The traders first AoE root has a defensive skill of 100%. This means the fixer will be able to root more mobs (less chance of resist cause we all know mob nanoresist works quite well) for a longer period of time (allowing him/his team more recovery time outside of attack range), for less IP investment (as the trader has to raise 2 skills equally versus the staggered skill requirements for the fixer), and earlier than a trader. And this pattern continues throughout the range of nanos availible to both professions. And you consider the trader roots better? Your logic has apparently left the visual range of the Hubble Telescope. NASA suspects it may have left the known universe.

[_______________Garzu]

Originally posted by Kuroshio

1. You consider a buff that require tons of preparation, the reduction of ability for a team member, and the certainty they will drop in a short amount of time (possibly during combat) without hope of renewal for another 14 or more seconds the best buffs availible? Your logic has lost me.
2. How do you figure a trader's team heals are better than a doctor's team heal which can heal more damage, cost less nanopoints, and doesn't damage the doctor when using it compared to a trader with equal nanoskills using a team heal? Your logic has now somehow evaded GPS tracking systems and lost a great deal of people that were depending on high technology to keep up.
3. A fixer can use his first AoE root when his T&S is 36 and his SenseImp is 48. A trader can use his first AoE root when his T&S is 118 and his PyshoMod is 118. The fixer's first AoE root nano lasts over 9 minutes. The traders first AoE root last 36 seconds. The fixer's first AoE root has a defensive skill of 80%. The traders first AoE root has a defensive skill of 100%. This means the fixer will be able to root more mobs (less chance of resist cause we all know mob nanoresist works quite well) for a longer period of time (allowing him/his team more recovery time outside of attack range), for less IP investment (as the trader has to raise 2 skills equally versus the staggered skill requirements for the fixer), and earlier than a trader. And this pattern continues throughout the range of nanos availible to both professions. And you consider the trader roots better? Your logic has apparently left the visual range of the Hubble Telescope. NASA suspects it may have left the known universe.

Whaaa whaaa whaa... lets just do it really simple: I have now found the best Trader team heal: http://www.hackersquest.org/ao/show....=118245&item=0 Find me a doc team heal that is better....

Balance must be made out of lvl 200 chars... Fixers got the most expensive nano skill cost in the game. So (without really doing any research) the trader will have higher nano attack with roots vs NT tahn the fixer, + you can increase your skill significantly, making the difference even bigger.

I would like to know what profession in the game that got better buffs than the trader... LOL, you gotto be kidding, your way of presenting "logics" is LOL, what can I say, stupid. Traders got the best buffs in the game. It is NO profesion in the game I would rather get the buffs from than the trader.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Garzu



Whaaa whaaa whaa... lets just do it really simple: I have now found the best Trader team heal: http://www.hackersquest.org/ao/show....=118245&item=0 Find me a doc team heal that is better....

Alpha and Omega completely heals the team, though it has insane requirements. On the next comparable nano, the trader's top team heal does heal more than the doctor. I could say that comparing the ultimate team heal nano of the trader and using it to say "See! You are better" completely ignores about 175 levels of the doctors out healing the trader. But that would be logical.

The next logicial step would be to point out the difference between Conglomerate Health Plan and Premium Delayed Health Payment to have Conglomerate boosted a bit. Having seen your logic at work, I'll expect you to advocate the complete removal of heal nanos from traders and the ability given to NT

Originally posted by Garzu

Balance must be made out of lvl 200 chars... Fixers got the most expensive nano skill cost in the game. So (without really doing any research) the trader will have higher nano attack with roots vs NT tahn the fixer, + you can increase your skill significantly, making the difference even bigger.

I would like to know what profession in the game that got better buffs than the trader... LOL, you gotto be kidding, your way of presenting "logics" is LOL, what can I say, stupid. Traders got the best buffs in the game. It is NO profesion in the game I would rather get the buffs from than the trader.

Balance must be made of the lvl 200 characters. No arguement here. But not at the sacrifice of everyone level 1-199. You and Alexander would have gotten along well (whole Gordian Knot Solution).

[______________Saille]

Uhm...when someone says "So and so has the best <insert ability here>, I think they mean best = useful."

You know, I also think the Trader heal is the best team heal in the game. It isn't a question of numbers. I'm not interested in how much nano it takes, or how long it takes, or if the Trader takes damage.

All I see, when playing with a Trader in team is that they are incredibly powerful team healers. The minute a Trader is added to my party I feel it, even if I haven't checked the profession of the addition. I feel it because a ton of HP is coming my way from them. Now when a Doctor is added to the team, what I notice is that the survivability of individual team members rises tremendously.

So my opinion is that a Trader is the better team healer and the Doctor is the better individual healer. This opinion has nothing to do with the recharge rates or the nano cost or whatever--it only has to do with what actually happens when I'm out there trying to survive. And that is all that matters to me.

So the thing I want to say is that, there's just no point in arguing about which skills are better on paper. It's only the reality of using them that matters.

I think this is a common balance problem with many skills. You can look at the numbers for skills and say, "Fixers have the better roots because they last twice as long as Traders." Well if 99% of all game play situations require only a 1 minute root...

Which class is better: Traders with a 2 minute root, or Fixers with a 4 minute root?

[______________Nozzzs]

Alexander walked up to the basketball sized knot of leather chariot cords and hacked it in two rather than attempting to untie it. (the myth was that he who undid the knot would be the master of Asia) I think his was a brilliant move. Garzu would run to the guy who made it and say it's not fair he chose leather because leather swells.

Anyway, without quoting large chunks of text I would like to respond:


Garzu, for all your attempts at mathematics and scientific approaches to game mechanics you overlook some basic concepts. YES, traders have a massive array of nano lines available to them. NO, they are not the best at ANY of their skills.
I refer to traders as the classic "jack of all trades, master of none". Yes, that can be a wonderful way to be. BUT, it keeps us incredibly busy. While you do the math on how we can debuff at such and such a rate and heal with such proficiency you overlook something dreadfully obvious. We CAN'T do all these things at the same time. We are in the constant need to debuff mobs in order to keep our skills up, debuff their AC because we take so much agro, do crowd control, heal, TAB from mob to mob shooting or using nanos, keep up nano steals because our skills are expensive to use, etc... (and since we are agroed so much we cant sit down for a nano break like NT's)
So here's the picture. At the start of a fight I MUST debuff skills. Then a make a judgement call, "Do I worry about stealing nano to keep up my pool, do I have to heal already, some angry critter need mezzing, or do I debuff AC?" Meanwhile I am picking my target and firing on it. Depending on what I need to do the fight can go MANY ways. No matter what, it is just about IMPOSSIBLE to execute the nanos optimally (your 6.5 second BS)
That simply doesnt happen. Plus, each time i use a nano my attack timer for my shottie is toasted. (I usually forget to hit flingshot because i get so busy, though I'm getting better at remembering)

The point is that, maybe in a situation similar to the OK Corral where two people line up across from eachother and start at the same time, I can have a major advantage with my debuffs. This is a rare occurence. The people with titles I have seen do it by outsmarting their opponents and getting the jump on them.


In team play I ACTIVELY use four of my available hotbars for shortcuts to my skills. I am busy dude in a fight. There is NEVER a time when I am able to realize all my skills during the course of one fight. Rather, I can be a boost to my team by using the right skills at the right time. This take MAJOR hard work to learn how to do. I literally get cramps oin my hands trying to keep up with the pace of missions. I you think you are a skilled player, then make a trader and find out if it's true.

Once again, the point is that none of these hypothetical situations of yours are reality. If Deep Blue were playing a trader I'm sure it would do it more efficiently than I, but I am limited by my five senses. The game no longer warns me when my debuffs are ending (im not sure if a setting changed somehow) so I only find out when my skills drop by finding out I cant use a nano!


BTW , I have never seen my Premium Delayed Health Payment heal more than 1k..it is always in the 900's. But I do manage to sometimes stack some nasty DoT's on myself as my heals slowly take my life. Much fun since my heals and crits also agro mobs, then I'm healing myself desperately with a single heal...oh wait..Damn..my debuffs just ran out.


Oh, did I mention that our only green skills are the trade skills for which most of the recipes are broken? Oh Yeah, we pay for what we have.


So you can quote math examples from your high school math teacher if it makes you feel better, but the reality is that we arent able to do all those things in one fight. However, if a soldier or NT stands in front of me and gives me a countdown, he can plan on forgetting how to read before I'm done with him, it's what I do.
If you don't like it, don't give PvP traders a chance, outsmart them. Or send in some noob first to distract him.

Another thing, when you read all the trader nanos do you look at the amount of NCU our debuffs take to run? I'm not gonna go and do the math, but I'll tell you that I fill up my 353 ncu every fight, and have to refuse buffs in order to stay viable. (sometimes i accept politely then delete them ...out of courtesy)

All I can say is, "Thank OMNI for my self only comp lit buffs!"



You are contending that there is a massive imbalance to PVP. I am contending that you PvP people are simply doing it wrong. Running out and going head to head with random people is not only simplistic and inane, but it is not reflective of the way real fights take place. Camping the line between 25% and 75% zones and waiting for someone to cross is a sad, desperate plea for a life. I ask Garzu, if you so hate PvM how did you make it to your level??? And if you so love PvP why do you cry about it so much. Do you realize that there is another option?? Don't do it.
And another option: Find a different/better way to do it.

You know the people who cry how the game is unbalanced when actually they simply arent playing their prof right?? Well sit back and ask yourself if there might be another aspect to PvP.
Dissecting the game in order to validate your present approach to PvP is obtuse and unreasonable. But others have told you this and you have just looked at your computer screen, shook your head, and told yourself that you are the only one who understands. (right now is when you pat yourself on the back because only you are smart)



Nozzzs

[______________Nietya]

n00b? Did someone say n00b?

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Nietya
n00b? Did someone say n00b?

n00b!

[_______________Garzu]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


Alpha and Omega completely heals the team, though it has insane requirements. On the next comparable nano, the trader's top team heal does heal more than the doctor. I could say that comparing the ultimate team heal nano of the trader and using it to say "See! You are better" completely ignores about 175 levels of the doctors out healing the trader. But that would be logical.

The next logicial step would be to point out the difference between Conglomerate Health Plan and Premium Delayed Health Payment to have Conglomerate boosted a bit. Having seen your logic at work, I'll expect you to advocate the complete removal of heal nanos from traders and the ability given to NT



Balance must be made of the lvl 200 characters. No arguement here. But not at the sacrifice of everyone level 1-199. You and Alexander would have gotten along well (whole Gordian Knot Solution).

Thanks, finally you admit you have been wrong all along , that was a really grown up thing to do, I was worried there for a few days you would just let it keep going, but as I said, nice of you to admit you are wrong.


ANyway, not going to discuss Trader nerfs with you anymore... the nerfs will come anyway.


The traders debuffs will be nerfed, dunno how, but it will happen. Just wait and see

[_______________Garzu]

Originally posted by Nozzzs
Alexander walked up to the basketball sized knot of leather chariot cords and hacked it in two rather than attempting to untie it. (the myth was that he who undid the knot would be the master of Asia) I think his was a brilliant move. Garzu would run to the guy who made it and say it's not fair he chose leather because leather swells.

Anyway, without quoting large chunks of text I would like to respond:


Garzu, for all your attempts at mathematics and scientific approaches to game mechanics you overlook some basic concepts. YES, traders have a massive array of nano lines available to them. NO, they are not the best at ANY of their skills.
I refer to traders as the classic "jack of all trades, master of none". Yes, that can be a wonderful way to be. BUT, it keeps us incredibly busy. While you do the math on how we can debuff at such and such a rate and heal with such proficiency you overlook something dreadfully obvious. We CAN'T do all these things at the same time. We are in the constant need to debuff mobs in order to keep our skills up, debuff their AC because we take so much agro, do crowd control, heal, TAB from mob to mob shooting or using nanos, keep up nano steals because our skills are expensive to use, etc... (and since we are agroed so much we cant sit down for a nano break like NT's)
So here's the picture. At the start of a fight I MUST debuff skills. Then a make a judgement call, "Do I worry about stealing nano to keep up my pool, do I have to heal already, some angry critter need mezzing, or do I debuff AC?" Meanwhile I am picking my target and firing on it. Depending on what I need to do the fight can go MANY ways. No matter what, it is just about IMPOSSIBLE to execute the nanos optimally (your 6.5 second BS)
That simply doesnt happen. Plus, each time i use a nano my attack timer for my shottie is toasted. (I usually forget to hit flingshot because i get so busy, though I'm getting better at remembering)

The point is that, maybe in a situation similar to the OK Corral where two people line up across from eachother and start at the same time, I can have a major advantage with my debuffs. This is a rare occurence. The people with titles I have seen do it by outsmarting their opponents and getting the jump on them.


In team play I ACTIVELY use four of my available hotbars for shortcuts to my skills. I am busy dude in a fight. There is NEVER a time when I am able to realize all my skills during the course of one fight. Rather, I can be a boost to my team by using the right skills at the right time. This take MAJOR hard work to learn how to do. I literally get cramps oin my hands trying to keep up with the pace of missions. I you think you are a skilled player, then make a trader and find out if it's true.

Once again, the point is that none of these hypothetical situations of yours are reality. If Deep Blue were playing a trader I'm sure it would do it more efficiently than I, but I am limited by my five senses. The game no longer warns me when my debuffs are ending (im not sure if a setting changed somehow) so I only find out when my skills drop by finding out I cant use a nano!


BTW , I have never seen my Premium Delayed Health Payment heal more than 1k..it is always in the 900's. But I do manage to sometimes stack some nasty DoT's on myself as my heals slowly take my life. Much fun since my heals and crits also agro mobs, then I'm healing myself desperately with a single heal...oh wait..Damn..my debuffs just ran out.


Oh, did I mention that our only green skills are the trade skills for which most of the recipes are broken? Oh Yeah, we pay for what we have.


So you can quote math examples from your high school math teacher if it makes you feel better, but the reality is that we arent able to do all those things in one fight. However, if a soldier or NT stands in front of me and gives me a countdown, he can plan on forgetting how to read before I'm done with him, it's what I do.
If you don't like it, don't give PvP traders a chance, outsmart them. Or send in some noob first to distract him.

Another thing, when you read all the trader nanos do you look at the amount of NCU our debuffs take to run? I'm not gonna go and do the math, but I'll tell you that I fill up my 353 ncu every fight, and have to refuse buffs in order to stay viable. (sometimes i accept politely then delete them ...out of courtesy)

All I can say is, "Thank OMNI for my self only comp lit buffs!"



You are contending that there is a massive imbalance to PVP. I am contending that you PvP people are simply doing it wrong. Running out and going head to head with random people is not only simplistic and inane, but it is not reflective of the way real fights take place. Camping the line between 25% and 75% zones and waiting for someone to cross is a sad, desperate plea for a life. I ask Garzu, if you so hate PvM how did you make it to your level??? And if you so love PvP why do you cry about it so much. Do you realize that there is another option?? Don't do it.
And another option: Find a different/better way to do it.

You know the people who cry how the game is unbalanced when actually they simply arent playing their prof right?? Well sit back and ask yourself if there might be another aspect to PvP.
Dissecting the game in order to validate your present approach to PvP is obtuse and unreasonable. But others have told you this and you have just looked at your computer screen, shook your head, and told yourself that you are the only one who understands. (right now is when you pat yourself on the back because only you are smart)



Nozzzs

No matter what, it is just about IMPOSSIBLE to execute the nanos optimally (your 6.5 second BS)

I do it everyday . Faaaaar from impossible.

Hope you spent ALOT of time on this post, cause after I had read 2 sentences, I figured it was 99.99% BS all of it, so I didnt read the rest.