How will traders be PvP Gods?: I fail to see your paranoid points.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Garzu
Traders debuffs is way uber already vs nano skills, now FC has said:



Making them even more UBER. Unbeatable I would say, ppl already got huge problems with them.

I imagined the MP as the NT killer, guess I was wrong... seems to me that MPs, traders, docs, soldiers, crats, and any healing profession is supposed to be the NT killer. Who do NTs own? Engs and Fixers. At least we are not at the bottom, but a fixer with a runbuff (funbuff) and a shotgun can be damn tough.

They already got the top 4 best stuff any profession can have in the game:

1. Traders have the best damage weapons in the game, shotguns, with their draining of your skills their AMS increases vs your DMS, and your AMS decreases vs their DMS, making it more likely htey will crit against you, and more likely you will miss.

2. Traders got the BEST debuffs in the game.

3. Traders got AE roots, which is damn nice in pvp.

4. Traders got the 2nd best healing in the game, only beaten by docs. With 50% dmg vs 100% heals.... makes them so uber I didnt think it was even possible.

Personally I htink those 4 is the most important and best stuff any profession can have in pvp, and trader got it ALL. NO other profession is even close to Trader uberness, well maybe docs and soldiers.

The only Trader specific thing I want nerfed is their buffs and debuffs. THEY SHOULD NOT WORK AGAINST NANO SKILLS AFTER THE OE PATCH. Both their buffs AND debuffs should not work vs nano skills, only vs weapon skills. MPs are the nano buffers and debuffers, thats more than enough. I say let the MPs play a role in this game too... nobody wants them anymore at higher lvls, a trader can do it much better anyway + they do best dmg in the game and 2nd best healing... who needs an MP?

After the OE nerf, the trader can totally disable ALL professions just by a click on a button, they will have the power to turn your pet against you, they already can make your heals and nukes and roots and you name it totally useless, and in addition they now is going to totally ruin all weapons...

Traders debuffs AND buffs should NOLONGER work vs nano skills.

If they made that change, it might work. Well almost, they should remove crits and make heals and dmg 100% again.

If I were a Trader, I would already start suggesting nerfs for my own profession.

Now in this thread I can say what's really on my mind. You're attempting to rally support behind nerfing the Trader's debuffs in order to reduce a risk the NT profession has lived with since the game opened. Nuh uh...that's just low

[LeetRoolzor]

Originally posted by Kuroshio:

"Even reducing you down to being able to use Greater Blade Chaos (-293 to -568) would mean you're still a danger"

Hahahaha... So you would like to be able to make any NT a piece of sh1t and kill him with no danger? Tsss...

[__________NicholaSix]

Funny you should use that quote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10. Won't one de-buff completely kill pet users?

A de-buff will affect the pet professions hard, yes, but it will also hit the direct-damage dealing nano-program and weapon users. So far, if a Trader de-buffs the Nano-Technician (NT), the NT should run for the exit or grid entrance. Now this is also true for some of the pet professions.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Show's how little the game designers know about their own game. The idiot doesn't even know that you can't use the grid terminal in combat. It further shows his ignorance, about the effects of debuffs and nano resist. A level 100 trader with maxed PM/TS has about a 95% chance of landing both divests and plunders on a level 150 NT with maxed Nano resist. Same story with Meta debuffs, and Doc debuffs. There are always tons of traders, meta's and docs in PVP zones, so what this genius Gaute Godager is trying to say is: "If you are a NT and enter a PVP zone you should run." Christ, when is the last time you even saw an engy in a PVP zone other than aces or mort trying to hunt? Engies go into pvp zones once, get totally spanked, and never go back again. I can't understand why this idiot thinks neers even go into pvp zones. Guess what Gaute? Engies won't be effected hard by debuffs because the only thing that will debuff them will be in missions.

Like the Voudon says: "The gods are like children, you have to tell them what to do."

Debuffs should be 50% detractive in PVP like damage and healing should be 50% effective.

Nano resist should work once in a while.

I wish these "designers" played their game once in a while. At least when I used to play a bunch of quake mods, the mod authors played their game so they could understand it.

[LeetRoolzor]

Damn right! Darn I wish I didn't like Godager

[_______________Garzu]

Originally posted by Merkaba715


hey garzu, why dont you just write up a proposal to make AO exactly how you want it? debuffs shouldnt work on nano skills, thats retarded. do you want a god mode put in too? you are one of the twits yelling for this OE patch, and now that its here, you are whining. NT's will never be happy.

There you said it, but its not NTs who got it, its traders, and after the OE patch, the traders will be in uber god mode.

[________________Zwie]

Would be funny if FunCom applies the same rules to Traders as applied to NTs...the nanos are only at 50% effectiveness in PvP, would that help?

Zwie

[Phinger]

Why am I jumping on the traders nerf bandwagon when I my Nt already gets owned in PVP by them....

Hmm answer. I pack a weapon.....not great weapon user but I pack one....with OE patch you can cripple not just my nukes...which are completely pathetic for a level 164 NT against a trader. You taking away my shooting capacity as well....and then sticking the shotgun up my ass and blowing me away in 3 shots. Do I think thats fair. No. And now it will spread to a slew of classes.... will they think thats fair? Do u think all these other classes say we see a trader it aint worth fighting him....we will do as Funcom suggests just run into nearest whompa.

But this is now going to spread far and wide to a huge number of classes that could stand against a trader...not well but still could knock him over. Soldiers/Enfs/Pet users the whole swag if Funcom permits your debuffs to be considered in the OE equation will be affected.

Every weapon user unless is a class that can self buff into their chosen weapon....ala Enforcer/Soldier/Agent...will most likely be crippled by your debuffs under the OE patch. Mps all weapon skills are blue...no weapon self buffs there. Crats have pistol light blue.....but hey no self buffs there.

Hey you drops a soldiers attack rating you can combat his attack...but then to drop his damage output as well?

Whats the solution so you can still keep debuffs and not cripple basically every class in the game?

1.Your debuffs dont count in the OE equation.

or

2. We go back to full damage on all weapons. So you may shaft in me in the butt with a 5k crit on a shotgun....I may also stuff a 2-3k nuke plus followed by a weapon attack at you.
(This I dont see happening since Funcom wants the combat to last longer and not be a frantic press button of specials).

Or

3.Maybe a combination of the two. You can keep debuffs on weapons but cant debuff nano skills. And the "damage" remains the same in the game.(This way you can debuff weapon users....but they still have recourse to nanos to save them, pets that still work for them...why this... you already had debuffs on nanos now you take away our guns what are we to do beat you with harsh words?).

We wanted the OE being addressed but what we didnt expect was Funcom to hand to you guys on a golden platter a boost to a class that already is uber enough in PVP allowing them to have their debuffs factored in combat for OE. So dont shove your excuses ..."Oh you whined for OE to be fixed and now you got your fix". Yeah we wanted a fix....NOT A SHAFTING!


Phinger 164 NT

[____________eleetist]

Originally posted by Fingers
2. We go back to full damage on all weapons. So you may shaft in me in the butt with a 5k crit on a shotgun....I may also stuff a 2-3k nuke plus followed by a weapon attack at you.
(This I dont see happening since Funcom wants the combat to last longer and not be a frantic press button of specials).
Phinger 164 NT

I definitely support this idea.... if a trader has the ability to debuff me into uselessness in PvP, then I should at least have the ability to drop his sorry butt with a nice Aimed Shot...

Traders are already one of the more dominant classes in AO... they have everything they could possibly want... Crowd Control and Heals for Soloing and now they will have outrageous crits, heals, and debuffs for PvP.... Why can't Funcom take the time to fix the broken classes rather than keep making the good ones better. This stupid OE patch is going to take Engies from great at soloing to hard to play.... going to do about the same with crats. It will make Agents very little fun as well.... these classes have one big thing in common, low hit points and no heals and yet they won't be able to outdamage opponents....

This makes so little sense...... if you want equality then someone with low hit points and no heals needs the ability to outdamage others.... Of course with damage caps and all that you have removed the ability for at least some outdamaging...

Now the irony of the whole thing is... that the Overequipping patch is going to lead to the biggest crock I ever heard... it's going to give traders the ability to have decent hit points (comparatively to Agents, Crats, Engies, and NT's)... they will also have their heals..... they will also outdamage every other class... and be able to incredibly reduce the damage of any class....

Can we at least request one thing... Can Traders please be able to charm us into killing ourselves... at least that would be more entertaining.... maybe you could add some chat messages... like you attack a trader and you see in the chat window, "You've screwed up now! You just attacked a trader!".... or how about "Kiss your sorry a$$ goodbye, you've been debuffed by a trader!"

So what am I missing here???? Tell me FUNCOM.... HOW DOES THIS FIX ANYTHING in the game????

Eleetist
Lvl 148 Agent

[____________Yehezkel]

I play an adventurer, and if I must say so myself, I think I do it very well. In PvP, I'm not such a gimp at all. I can deal with a lot of different classes, and I've beaten enforcers, soldiers and agents of higher levels than myself.

However, a trader of almost any level can beat me. The debuffs render me useless, and they are absolutely indefensible for me. There's no strategy or skill I can train that will help. There's nothing whatsoever I can do to defend myself against a trader.

Aren't traders supposed to be merchants? Why are they instead the most effective kill machines in the game?

Everyone else in-game agrees.. Run when you see a trader. Even the greenest green trader can own you, and there's nothing at all you can do about it. It's almost like they have automatic 'win pvp fight' buttons on their consoles. In PvM, it's the same. Trader mobs are the most dangerous mobs in a mission. I have a shot at beating a solid red enforcer mob, but a greenish trader is far more dangerous.

This isn't a whine. I don't mind a challenge. Hell, I pvp as an adventurer. I just want a chance to win. I want some sort of strategy that I can use against a trader, some device that can aid in fighting them, some nano that can help me... anything.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by eleetist


I definitely support this idea.... if a trader has the ability to debuff me into uselessness in PvP, then I should at least have the ability to drop his sorry butt with a nice Aimed Shot...

Traders are already one of the more dominant classes in AO... they have everything they could possibly want... Crowd Control and Heals for Soloing and now they will have outrageous crits, heals, and debuffs for PvP.... Why can't Funcom take the time to fix the broken classes rather than keep making the good ones better. This stupid OE patch is going to take Engies from great at soloing to hard to play.... going to do about the same with crats. It will make Agents very little fun as well.... these classes have one big thing in common, low hit points and no heals and yet they won't be able to outdamage opponents....

This makes so little sense...... if you want equality then someone with low hit points and no heals needs the ability to outdamage others.... Of course with damage caps and all that you have removed the ability for at least some outdamaging...

Now the irony of the whole thing is... that the Overequipping patch is going to lead to the biggest crock I ever heard... it's going to give traders the ability to have decent hit points (comparatively to Agents, Crats, Engies, and NT's)... they will also have their heals..... they will also outdamage every other class... and be able to incredibly reduce the damage of any class....

Can we at least request one thing... Can Traders please be able to charm us into killing ourselves... at least that would be more entertaining.... maybe you could add some chat messages... like you attack a trader and you see in the chat window, "You've screwed up now! You just attacked a trader!".... or how about "Kiss your sorry a$$ goodbye, you've been debuffed by a trader!"

So what am I missing here???? Tell me FUNCOM.... HOW DOES THIS FIX ANYTHING in the game????

Eleetist
Lvl 148 Agent

Speaking as a Trader, in terms of offensive power things are just silly. Take our shotguns, please! Seriously. The shotgun class of weapons were severely underestimated by most people in the game till people saw the traders critting like mad. Personally, I say change Shotgun to deep blue for Traders and make Pistols green. Won't do anything for the high level traders but will gradually balance out as the lower level traders climb up.

The trader profession isn't about being a 'merchant'. If it were, we'd have an immense psychic buff to go with our complit buff to get better prices from humanoid merchants . We 'trade' skills and abilities. The mechanics of this 'trading' (ransacking/depriving) would make a superb defensive skill if the offensive power found in overequipping shotguns didn't unbalance it. Most other weapons are balanced against the trader, except shotguns. The single skilled shotguns like Vektors, when combined with the skill absorbing deprives/ransacks, give traders a massive offensive advantage when those skills we absorbed aren't 'traded' elsewhere.

Look at anyone not overequipped into a shotgun. The damage they do is fairly steady and pretty much inline with other weapons until the crits start happening. Crits happen way more often when you have skills beyond what's required of the weapon.

[______________Soccom]

Originally posted by Fingers
Oh and as for setting up spells bars and the like.

I already have a whole range setup depending on the range of debuffs.....from my time in PVP and solo when I encounter trader mobs.
I have 4 sets,One full steam ahead, One for MPs milder debuff, 2 others for the plus 200, and 400 range.

But as the poster said above, -200 in nano skills is a huge drop drop in damage output. You only have to spend a couple of hours sitting there going thru the nukes and compile your tab bar to just realise how quickly you become ineffective.

I ask you go to hacker quest, look at the NTs nano list, at 163 I have a MC of 907 self buffed. You do the numbers, look at the range of NFs once debuffed, THEN DIVIDE BY 2 and you get what we do in PVP.

And be honest, we hated stun being taken away....but hell it was way powerful......and what did we get? Funcoms fix was worse then ever having stun at all.

Do you want the same to happen to you because you want to keep this selfish little power and spread it not just from NTs but all other classes in the game? You know the answer....and you know what its going to do to your class.....UBER. Being able to stop pet classes cold, reduce damage from weapon users up over 50%? Seriously....ask yourself if this goes in current form your not going to be uber?

Phinger 163 NT

I'm tired of people complaining that every class has to be 100% effective against every other class. I play a trader and do well against NTs... but guess what... I also play a MA and get OWNED by NTs...... Debuffs from docs/traders/mps decrease your chance of a win by a great amount. But there is a difference between a low chance of survival and no chance of survival. If i see a NT with my MA in a pvp zone i try to avoid him/her at all costs. Root/nuke/root/nuke/root/nuke is very effective.. You don't see me on any boards complaining that NTs need to be nerfed. I am very glad that things like this exist in this game and hopefully group pvp aspects are introduced. If all advantages of the different professions were removed (debuffs, alpha strikes/aimshot) the game would be like this
Press Q
wait
option 1... live....option 2 die.....
instead of Q press nuke quickbar key for NT.

Fun Fun.

The reason why the stun got nerfed was because of people like you but in other professions.

[Kuro]

If the NT's still complaining about 50% damage in PvP can't see that the OE patch is prolly the first step towards removing it, then they maintain a very narrow focus in terms of game mechanics.

Do you think an agent without an overequipped stigma could have pulled off 1k+ aimed shots? Or soldiers hitting with crazy full auto/burst combos? And what caused the 50% damage in PvP to be implemented? Was it the massive numbers of NTs running around in PvP nuking people with Izgimmer's Last Word? Oh yeah, big fear there...

And as far as the topic itself is concerned, according to Antiguardian's statistics page, Traders currently make up 4.73% of the population on both dimensions. It's astonishing that small percentage of the population (only the crats are smaller) have such a large percentage of the population quaking scared.

[______________Soccom]

Originally posted by Garzu


There you said it, but its not NTs who got it, its traders, and after the OE patch, the traders will be in uber god mode.

What exactly is the difference between the debuffs now and after the patch. They work exactly the same now as they will after the patch. The only class the oe patch and trader debuffs are toing to affect are the engies... and who pvps with a engie. Even if they are hit the bot will continue to fight through the fight anyway so who CARES.. The only difference is now the shotty will not be uber over equiped. and less effective. At lower lvls it takes too damn long to cast a debuff in pvp. At higher lvls the debuffs are instant but guess what ... you don't need to overequip anymore. Traders/MPs/Docs are the thorns in NTs sides. NTs are the thorns in ALL melee class users sides. THIS IS A GOOD THING.

[sgallaty]

is that shotguns have absurdly large criticals.

Now, if you think about it this really is backwards. In real life, a shotgun is a gun that shoots a large mass of objects ensuring you probably hit with some of it, but reduces range and mass of each individual projectile.

In the game, a shotgun SHOULD have a high minimum damage. That should be the defining aspect of shotguns, not high criticals.

This would go a long ways towards reducing the bone-shattering cumulative effects of traders.

[______________Soccom]

Originally posted by Nox
is that shotguns have absurdly large criticals.

Now, if you think about it this really is backwards. In real life, a shotgun is a gun that shoots a large mass of objects ensuring you probably hit with some of it, but reduces range and mass of each individual projectile.

In the game, a shotgun SHOULD have a high minimum damage. That should be the defining aspect of shotguns, not high criticals.

This would go a long ways towards reducing the bone-shattering cumulative effects of traders.

Good idea.
Maybe shotties could retain the high end crits but have have low range.... Getting hit with a shotgun at close range causes way more "critical" damage that getting hit by a pistol or sword. Logically anyway... not that i am going to test this in RL
hahah

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Irritated


What exactly is the difference between the debuffs now and after the patch. They work exactly the same now as they will after the patch. The only class the oe patch and trader debuffs are toing to affect are the engies... and who pvps with a engie. Even if they are hit the bot will continue to fight through the fight anyway so who CARES.. The only difference is now the shotty will not be uber over equiped. and less effective. At lower lvls it takes too damn long to cast a debuff in pvp. At higher lvls the debuffs are instant but guess what ... you don't need to overequip anymore. Traders/MPs/Docs are the thorns in NTs sides. NTs are the thorns in ALL melee class users sides. THIS IS A GOOD THING.

The difference is after the OE patch, not only will they be unable to use their nanos but now their weapons could be dropped to around 50% effectiveness. It's a valid concern, though I question how valid it is coming from a NT. They already get spanked when debuffed. Not like having a pistol helped them

But attacking the power of the debuffs isn't the correct route to go, since reducing that reduces the trader's effectiveness in a team situation. The correct direction for the nerf is in the trader's offensive power. The problem here, though, is too many people like Garzu are taking the opportunity to settle old grudges.

[______________Soccom]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


The difference is after the OE patch, not only will they be unable to use their nanos but now their weapons could be dropped to around 50% effectiveness. It's a valid concern, though I question how valid it is coming from a NT. They already get spanked when debuffed. Not like having a pistol helped them

But attacking the power of the debuffs isn't the correct route to go, since reducing that reduces the trader's effectiveness in a team situation. The correct direction for the nerf is in the trader's offensive power. The problem here, though, is too many people like Garzu are taking the opportunity to settle old grudges.

Debuffs now make their guns less effective now BTW.
Should docs get their int debuffs taken out also?
Should MPs no longer have dominate nanos or shutdown? no.
The weapon dictates the offensive power of a trader. Shotgun skills are greenish. Make shotguns have really short range.. This would help a lot. I think most complain because of the range on some of these shotguns.

Beams always seem to hit me harder then fellow traders with shotties.... but that is just my impression. oh well.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Irritated


Debuffs now make their guns less effective now BTW.
Should docs get their int debuffs taken out also?
Should MPs no longer have dominate nanos or shutdown? no.
The weapon dictates the offensive power of a trader. Shotgun skills are greenish. Make shotguns have really short range.. This would help a lot. I think most complain because of the range on some of these shotguns.

Beams always seem to hit me harder then fellow traders with shotties.... but that is just my impression. oh well.

Finally! Someone else sees the fact that to balance the debuffs doesn't require the nerfing of the debuffs.

Problem is if they nerf shotguns as a whole, it will affect everyone that wields shotguns and not just traders. The only way to affect the trader's offensive power is to take shotguns away from us. Or make it more costly for us to wield them.

The shotguns in the game are overpowered. But in the hands of a trader, who's run a deprive/ransack on anything, they're deadly. I haven't tested what effect being buffed by deprive/ransack would have on pistols, but I think it'd be far more balanced and return the debuffs to more of a defensive nature. And buffer zone for team buffs.

[______________Soccom]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


Finally! Someone else sees the fact that to balance the debuffs doesn't require the nerfing of the debuffs.

Problem is if they nerf shotguns as a whole, it will affect everyone that wields shotguns and not just traders. The only way to affect the trader's offensive power is to take shotguns away from us. Or make it more costly for us to wield them.

The shotguns in the game are overpowered. But in the hands of a trader, who's run a deprive/ransack on anything, they're deadly. I haven't tested what effect being buffed by deprive/ransack would have on pistols, but I think it'd be far more balanced and return the debuffs to more of a defensive nature. And buffer zone for team buffs.

Hmm
Beams in the hands of a enforcer are deadly.
Rifles in the hands of a Agent are deadly.
Anyone can equip a Rifle or a beam (if they are atrox) but they are less effective then the class that is "meant" to use the weapon. A enforcer can buff his skills insanely with headcracker/challenger... etc... High end agents can do "Take the shot" etc. I think certain classes should have advantages with certain weapons.
/me shrugs

[__________NicholaSix]

Crit buffs self only and only modify Melee damage.

Scopes for gun crits, only modify weapon damage.

Crit chance reduced by 50% overall.

100% damage for PVP.

Nuf said.