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Thread: Overequipping and the IP reset: A follow-up

  1. #141

    Exclamation PvP & PET ISSUES.

    First of all, thanks for getting us updated about our virtual future. I must admit that you (FC) put some efforts in improving communication issues with your players.

    The most serious issues brought up by this incoming patch, in my opinion, are the PvP & the Pet classes nerf issues. These are extremely serious, so please continue working on it before releasing a let's-try-it-as-is-and-see-later kind of patch.

    The Traders, which have already a vast arsenal of means to almost get the lead in PvP fighting, will turn out to be so overpowered with this patch as it's already ridiculous, just thinking of the consequences this patch would come up with. I mean, please reconsider the fact that an already 120 debuffing Trader today, for example, may turn an opponent of the same level into an opponent 24-30 levels less (only considering it from the IP perspective, not to take any prior buffs running into account). This will get even worse as the debuffed guy will not only suffer from a severe hindering of his Nano-casting possibilities, but also from a Damage & Armor Class reduction. You just can not allow this to happen. I sincerely hope you measured how these changes -alone- will turn PvP interaction pointless and biased.

    Pet classes, on the other hand, are those which primarily rely on pets to inflict damage. Now this may sound obvious, but apparently, it does not. Why only lower over-equipped weapons damage and still completely shut down pet capabilities ? This solution is just completely unfair. And if you think of the false argument about most pet classes using weapons as well (and thus, thinking of them as being, say, fighting classes equals in terms of damage-dealing possibilities) and only considering their pet as a damage-dealer "bonus", then forget it, because this is untrue. Many engineers and bureaucrats primary goal is to not pull the aggro, and just shoot their weapon or their Direct Damage Nano when the situation is either unrisky or desperate, which means their overall damage-dealing capabilities are -at best- equivalent to weapons users. As a consequence, shutting down their pets capabilities because of these exceeding the 20% requirements cap is not a serious way of dealing with the problem. Please try to think about an alternative way consisting of a proportional decrease in pets damage-dealing possibilities, or/and even a proportional decrease in pets Hit Points (max & actual HP, with a maximum decrease as to not kill the pet). This will make you friends, and will not crowd your hard drives with early-retired bureaucrats and engineers.

    Lastly, as I've been actually playing a bureaucrat as my main character, and considering the issue of the charm nanos being useless at higher levels, I must absolutely encourage you to take a look at the 5th Bureaucrat Convention thread on the Bureaucrat forum. There I'm sure you will find many reasonable ideas and solutions discussed by numerous valuable bureaucrat dedicated players, about most issues we Rubi-Ka brains have to deal with in the actual state of the game.

    Thanks for your time.

    Ahmad "Lutherio" Laurence.

  2. #142

    ok

    I'll hold my comments till i see the patch. Well, at least a week after it.. cause i know issues are going to arise. However , i truly hope things work out . I have spent alot of time and effort in this game and community. I'd hate to see our relationship end due to a bad judgement or poor deployment. Anyway, i have been here so long i can wait and see what surprises this change will hold.

    So ,no i'm not quiting this game once the patch is released.

  3. #143
    No, Brawl would be reduced to Brawl - Number of Points Given to Brawl by Raising Strength.

    The "illegal" skill levels lie in skill caps based on base ability. You can raise a base ability, max a skill based on that ability higher than you would be able to without raising said ability, then reset the base ability. This *will* remove any points put into the skill directly by raising the ability, but you will still be left with a skill that is higher than it would be able to raise without raising the base ability.

    Make sense? =)
    aha! thanks. So this is just a way of breaking the skill cap caused by your base ability #..

  4. #144

    Question Multi Wield skill check?

    I am at work and have not been able to read the article yet. Can someone tell me if the patch will check against the multi wield skill when determining the OE penalty? I only ask since it seems specials will help determing if an item in OE'd.

    As those of you who duel wield know, currently we only have to meet the lowest multi wield requirement of the two weapons we are using. If we are hit with an OE penalty based on the higher of the two weapons, you might as well right off the multi wield skill.

  5. #145

    OMG! This RULES. Finally a more even playfield..

    Try an MA doc sometime and understand what it is to be NON-twinked. I still solo 50%+ missions too. I have worked hard to keep this char playable withOUT OE'in and twinking. I can self buff for anything I have on. I am RIDDLED WITH GLEE that others will be forced to play by the same 'normal' rules as the average non-number crunching playerbase, rather than being able to reamin the uber-godlike-mouthy-rude-monkeys that make all games of this genre a pain, since they cheat, lie, steal, dupe, exploint, rant and do anything to RUIN the game environment for normal players.

    This doesn't mean ALL OE'ers.. Of course not. Many were just doing it as a way to get by. Understood. But for folks to cry that they can't do a normal mission without overequiping might indicate something far for sinister: Maybe just MAYBE people should use skills that their chars are inherently good at using? You know that silly char template thing that makes skills show up in different colors? Hint: Dark blue means you are no good at it! It doesn't mean with implants and traders I can..... Get my point?

    Anyhoo, thx FC for working towards balance. When all the screaming is said and done, you will have a longer lasting more balanced product. Good.
    Life doesn't get easier. You just get better at dealing with it.

  6. #146

    OE'd Implants and NCU's

    I like the looks of 14.2 through and through. But for these few things.

    You said you can't/don't know how to deal with Implants because if you render them usless it will be a chain effect. Fine. But you're thinking in 2D. Open your mind and see that there are dozens apon dozens of -other- things you can do to "punish" OE of Implants. My suggestion for OE of Implants is to reduce total.health by the afore mentioned %'s for each 'step' of OE. But then ofcourse, there will be a problem with Traders causing (possibly serious) harm on players as their implants stop functioning. Hmm, as you said though, the Treatment skill will not be a concern, only the 'secondary' requirement. Howmany ability debuffs are there?

    You also said -very- little about NCU "punishment" the same concern here. 2D, think outside the box. Reduce the effectiveness of the NCU itself by reducing the total.NCU available. Maybe, or maybe not the same %'s for this, as the number is already .. sadly, small.

    Pet owners will not be happy. Should give the 'pets' some sort of aggro command that will keep the creatures on them so that the owner of said 'pet' will not received debuffs. In PvP I've no idea what you might do. (/pet taunt %t)

    I will fear traders even more now. Currently the fear is from the knowledge that they can do -massive- weapon buffs (any weapon) to themselves to weild whatever they want. Now you give them the ability to cripple us as well. <- My only concern. I've never -ever- been in a battle that lasted more than 3min. Wrangles do not need longer times. Ransack/depribe need shorter times -or- we (players) need a better option to resist them.

    Lets face facts here. I "counter" nanoprograms 1 in 100. I max my skill -and- wear implants to boot. However creatures have no problem countering my programs, indeed, unless I'm in a fight with a green or less I -expect- the first three NF used to be countered.

    And well another thing to consider, Abilities. I just want some clarification because some of the posts I've read confused me. When I reset (sense) my rifle skill will drop by the 50% (or whatever) that the (sense) ability represents. ?yes? The skill(s) connected to the Ability reset will drop appropreatly? Right? They better. If not I'll max rifle/sense/agility for about 50lvls then reset sense and buy myself some Omni Elite armor because now I can afford to put more IP into stamina.

    Not that I expect anyone will respond.
    /me puts on cloaking device.

    If you have time I'd really appreciate some info on whats comming -specifically- for the Agents as well. Like aimed shot going back up in efficency, or being able to use it in battle as a "call shot."

    I OE but am within the 20% range. I don't use implants (yet) to great extent. I'm not going to see any difference to -my- game when the patch goes in. Bring it on.

    If you wanna leave bully for you. I won't miss you, what was your name?

    Try reading the EULA guys. Its that thing you hit "I accept" every EVERY time you load the game. Now stop complaining.

  7. #147
    Originally posted by Cheetra
    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by hexxia
    scenario: engi enters a PvP area.
    trader ransacks engi.
    pet cant respond
    engi runs
    trader roots engi.
    trader risk vs engi: 0
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    QUOTE:

    counter scenario 1:
    MA enters a PvP area.
    trader ransacks MA.
    MA's weapons take a 20% reduced effectiveness.
    MA dimachs + brawls trader, because trader debuffs don't affect special attacks.
    severely hurt trader still taking damage, albeit reduced, goes for a health plunder.
    MA brawls again since it's recharged.
    trader patiently waits 60 seconds for his equipment at the reclaim.

    In 1 on 1 PvP there's a counter for almost every profession. It's all about who gets first strike. I didn't even mention high level PvP involving an MP, who on first strike can completely shutdown a trader and keep him there with nanoshutdown and mind quakes.

    Are you high?! MA weapons take = -50% damage based on who this patch is descriped. Get your numbers right.

    Trader vs MA = DEAD MA, naice try, learn you facts before you post.

    NEXT POINT: ma's cant use weapon and special attack, STRIKE 2, you must de-equip requip the wepon to use a special attack.

    NEXT: MA can't heal for jack when deprived, trader between health funnels and weapon attacks. kicks the living cr4p our of the MA. STRIKE 3

    Just because you may have had one experience at pvp vs a MA 20 levels higher then you don't mean you know what your talking about, MA's as a rule need about 5 to 10 levels on an opponent to beat them. The classes that give use the MOST problems? TRADERS and DOC'S >p
    Not high. More like the PvP situations I've been in had nothing to do with a duel in the arena. All my PvP has involved ambushes, with me usually on the receiving end.

    And speaking as a Trader, it's all about who does what to who first. A solid hit from any profession can put me on the defensive, using health funnels to stay alive. News Flash: when using a health funnel, I can't be executing divest/plunders. Admittedly, post 14.2, I'll have to give thought to whether it's worth the risk to try a skill drain versus maintaining my health.

  8. #148
    Originally posted by hexxia
    scenario: engi enters a PvP area.
    trader ransacks engi.
    pet cant respond
    engi runs
    trader roots engi.
    trader risk vs engi: 0

    Welcome to the NT profession... Cuz that is usually how it goes for us against a trader... I'm not even gonna talk about what an MP nano shutdown does to us...


    So... you're saying leveling is going to be slower? hmmm so? why is that a problem? Are you playing AO just to power lvl around?


    Im an NT on his 100'eds. As you know we can't over equip our main DD weapon. Doing 50% missions is very very hard already, and only with a nice MC mastery or mocham to get the next generation nano formulas. But it is doable with some inteligence, tactics and time. Like it should be.
    I'm starting to think that some people are getting scared cuz they'll actually have to use those 3 things to accomplish something that should require them already in the first place...


    Funny thing is, I once teamed with this soldier my level... we went to do a 60% mission. He runs into the first room, casts his shield and starts shooting his 200ql Nova! 3 yellow mobs attack him. I had to run outside the mission location cuz one hit from one of those mobs in my fragile nanomage NT got me to a quarter health... I sit, use medkit, buff myself... then I go in expecting to find the soldier dead or running... but no, I see him with 2 dead mob corpses at his feat, and he's finishing off the 3rd one, and when he's done he says "Damn that was hard"

    I laughed till my stomach hurt


    Now I see here that the engis (or other profession that got used to not feel the nerf stick up the behind) saying that they won't be able to solo 60 or 70% missions anymore!!!

    I can understand you want this to be easy for you, level fast, kill 3 yellow / orange mobs and still have that special shine in your smile... but this is simply wrong...


    I see some weapon users complaining that they wont be able to use they're weapons correctly if debuffed... True (if debuffed the NT cant even piss a nuke 10 lvls lower while you can still shoot, doing less damage though)
    the average NT usually has in his shortcut bar lower level NF's to cast in such emergencies which do **** for damage but it is something. How about you actually try to think a way around it, and get a back up weapon? Something to shoot while you try to run/get away until you can use your heavy weaponry again?


    I just think this is utterly funny, we NT's have been complaining about these facts (being useless after debuffed, poor damage, weapon skills etc...) from since I can remember actually, and all other profession foruns called us 'The Whiners'
    Now theres a patch that isnt even gonna do close to whats been done the the NT profession in particular, and everybody is whinning like theres no tomorrow, cancelling, calling FC pretty ugly stuff etc...(there are other professions who felt the nerf stick hard but I'm only an NT so I'll speak for them)

    I for one am happy this patch is finally done, and also starting to regain some of my long lost trust in FC to communicate and inform theyre customers.

    : on a small side note I think it's pathetic to cancell an account without even trying the test server with these changes... or trying to adapt
    Oh and if you are still gonna cancel and posted you're cancel extract already, you can stop posting already. and 'move on' like you keep threatning

  9. #149

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I was positive, now I'm VERY negative

    Originally posted by Asmodan

    At level 77, assuming you max your HW every level you would have <BASE> + 231, assuming you have QL 100 implants in you'd gain an extra +108.
    My implants are mostly around QL 130. Two are QL 92, because they are the only two that required Int/Psy.

    That is assuming you gave up both the Shining and Faded slots for One Handed Edged and used them for Heavy Weapons. Giving up 77 point of 1HE for some reason or another.
    That I did. I'm not claiming to be an implant wizard. With this set of implants, I wanted to try focusing on blue skills that I would otherwise spend IP on. This may change, but as an adventurer duel wielding riders, I usually have to dump points into blue skills when I lvl. Now I can spend them on the green/aqua skills I've been neglecting.

    Where exactly are you getting those extra 70 points from? Also, how exactly are you meeting the OHE requirements (which is much higher than the HW) with only a single bright cluster for it?
    I'm not sure if it's your math or your assumption of QL 100 implants, but check out:

    http://daedo.hypermart.net/scrn0001.png
    http://daedo.hypermart.net/scrn0002.png

    As far as the rest of it goes, it's good stuff to know. I don't PvP at all, but it's still good info. I, personally, don't think debuffs should factor into the OE rules (I've posted previously about this). My original post was simply to show that it is possible to get HW up with implants for an adventurer.

    Sarelron

  10. #150

    Angry Hmmmmmmmm

    well,
    i seem to have been classed an anti teaming trader here by a certain person !!!!!!!

    i was tryin to point out the fact that when a trader is in a team and ppl in that team are OE the trader will have to constantly hit the mobs with deprives and ransacks to be able to cast a wrangle every 3min to keep the team at best efficency, there is no problem with this but the ammount of time it takes and the chances of mobs resisting if u on a hard mission will make it very unlikey that the team will get the wrangles they need to keep pets workin and guns at best .............

    or will ppl after the patch just use average equipment in teams and therefore not req a trader and just take less risky missions for less rewards and poorer loot.......

    all i know is that every person could use the OE sysytem as it was if they spent some time building up contacts and joining good guilds that help out there members....

    has anyone ever wondered what nano resist was for and what it would be like if it worked ? or does it work ? just a question ppl

    as others have said this patch has two edges.....

    enough

  11. #151
    I've never really been for or against overequiping. I just use what the game gives me or find ways around my combat problems and go on with my life. So I'll stay out of that discussion.

    I like the IP reset but I have a question. I'm a little confused about what happens if I reset an ability first rather than a skill. As an example, let's say I reset my Intelligence first. Does my comp. lit. stay at its current level? Imagine reducing your Int to 6 and still having a 300 comp lit. I realize reducing my Int to base would effect other skills but I'm trying to make a point. The example might be more pronouned if you take a 130 level fixer who has a high Str for those extra points in SMG and Running. He reduces his Str to base, switches to sense based armor rather than str based armor and he still gets to keep the high Str bonus for SMG and Running. So is this what everyone else is getting from the article?

    Also, will Funcom treat Defense Rings the same as IP rings? (i.e. be able to unequip them for the 3 week IP resetting period)

  12. #152
    I’d like to say first off that it was a very good article and I am 100% behind the over equipping changes. BUT…..

    No, I would like the OE to have distinct states - not a gradual reduction in power. This is much easier to understand for most people, I think.
    It is easier to understand that every point that you put in a skill will help you out when it comes to debuffs. With the stepping, players will also plateau their skill points to match. It would be much better for the game if two players had different amounts of skill using an item and they were both debuffed, that the penalties they both received would be proportionate with their skill. That seems natural and is the easiest to understand.

    So far, if a Trader de-buffs the Nano-Technician (NT), the NT should run for the exit or grid entrance. Now this is also true for some of the pet professions.
    It is the one shot kill all over again. The problem is that the Trader debuffs affect too many skills and are too powerful. A much better solution would be to break the Trader debuffs up.

    Separate them so that a debuff is targeted to fewer skills. An even split between nano skills and weapon skills would do. A Trader should not be able to totally shut down another player with just on nano.

    Also, we are working on an item that will reduce the length of all hostile nano-programs in your NCU. This is still some time off, as we must differentiate between common hostile nanos, and special hostile nanos. (Such as the profession-swapping nanos of the Agents.) We don't want those to go away when you use this item. Expect these items in one of the following patches...
    Are you mad!!! You are CREATING an imbalance in the game that you will get around to fixing later. Unacceptable!! First do no harm.

    I don’t understand why this is so hard to do. Nano Resist works this way. Right? If you need a quick fix the add a nano to the game that will increase your nano resistance by say 500 points for 5 seconds. Or for however long it takes to ensure another nano resist check is preformed. Make the nano have a long recharge time so that it can’t be chain cast.

    The monster will hit for less when it is de-buffed, though.
    Ok, I can accept that. What about casting mobs? Will their selection of nanos be affected by debuffs? Will they be affected by debuffs at all?

    You really need to implement something like this. In your attempt to make monsters “more predictable” you have made them boring. Every fight, against every mob is just about the same. I can understand that it is more work to design totally different monsters to fight but to simply clone a standard monster template and adjust a few hit points and damage output won’t work either.

    If you want to “hook” your players you will have to confront them with new challenges as often as possible.

    This is true. Sadly, we cannot change that. We have decided to make the resist-rate of most nano-programs so low, that even a fairly low-level Bureaucrat could charm a high-level monster if we took out those stats. It used to be that way, and it was totally imbalanced. To avoid that imbalance reappearing, we have to stick to the way it currently works!
    Umm… I don’t play a Crat, at least not yet anyway, but that answer does not leave a good taste in my mouth. This is yet another example why pets should just be reduced in damage output when they don’t meet the over equipped check not stop working altogether.

    14. Will Adventurers get back their "lost IP" from the skill change back in July 2001?

    Sadly, no. There is currently no way to tell what the skill was back then, without a big cumbersome process.
    Ok calculate how many IP points an Adventurer should have gotten for their level. Then Calculate how many IP points they would get if they reset all their skills. Take the difference and add it to their IP total. Make it a one use command that is only available to Adventurers. It is not totally accurate, but it is good enough.

    Your attempts to give Adventurers some luvin later won’t change the fact that some of them will have been cheated out of IP points.

  13. #153

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: OE Whats wrong with it ?

    Originally posted by Noer


    Will you please stop talking about traders in general at once?
    I'm sorry, I tried to make it apparent in my reply, using words like "from reading a lot of posts from traders", "But the original poster", and quoting the original poster, that I wasn't trying to generalize. I was not trying to make trader generalizations at all. I was trying to explain my discontent with the anti-grouping, selfish tendencies of the traders who *do* claim that wrangles are useless post-14.2 and scoff at using them in groups.

    Hope that clears things up.

    My appologies,

    Sarelron

  14. #154

    My take on the follow up

    I am an adventurer so take what I have to say with that in mind.

    Not getting back the points I lost when skill cost was changed just stinks. The fact that new players get more points than I have is just a bit unfair.

    I do not see why it is so hard to give us our points. If a player is level 50 you know how many points he should have to spend total.

    You can then do 1 of 2 things that are relatively simple.

    1. Add up the total of all points that it would take to get the current skill level at the current cost + any unspent ip. Subtract that from the total the profession should have at current level. The difference is the lost ip and can just be awarded.

    2. Just wipe all spent points and place in pool the total amount you should have at that level. You can leave map nav so there is no map problems.

    The only thing that is lost in this are the IP rings. Now you either track ip ring use or you don't. You obviously track it somewhat because I can only use my rings once every 10 hours.

    Not you may not track total number of uses.

    Your options for this are not the greatest if you do not track them completely.

    1. You could make the total ip reset optional so people could choose between rings or lost ip.

    2. You can do some research by getting back up logs of characters and do a comparrison of where all people where prior to the cost change then you can extrapulate what they spent at higher cost.

    3. Or you could just say tough luck about the rings.

    As players #2 is best for us but option #1 would prop be the best solution to implement.

    Now to the rest of the article.

    Including debuffs in your OE allowance formula is a bit crazy. I use pistols. My curen pistols are with in the 20% OE allowance. A trader can debuff me a couple hundred points placing me outside my 20% allowance by a lot.

    So not only does my attack rating suffer with less damage and crits I now will have the OE penalty on top of it all. Trader NPCs are the absolute worse. No only do they make casting nanos basically impossible they, heal, will lower your armor and lower damage so much that they are near impossiple to kill. Not to mention after you kill them the 3 minute wait for the debuffs to go away.

    Please consider not including the debuffs in the OE penalty formula. Having lower skills is penalty enough and does not need additional penalties added to it.

  15. #155
    I hope he considers reducing monster HP pools. They are getting ridiculously high

  16. #156

    a very good point on MA attacks.

    Very good point was made on MA special attacks.

    I Lose the following specials if debuffed by a trader, period, because these are ALL unique items, i can't carry a lower ql one to use. Because i don't me the req i can't use the attack period, while this will not effect all MA specials, it will affect the following:

    1) attack of snake ( based on ma skill )

    2) Shen ( ma and dimach based )

    3) Bright, Blue, Cloudless Sky ( Ma and Dimach based )

    4) Flower of Life ( MA, Parry and first aid )

    However, MA's currenlty are forcered to live with 100% special attack shutdown from debuffs, how about some scaled damage on Shen It's only really for PvP any how... scale the damage on it so 3 of use and hit one trader and live post 14.2 >)



    Oh.. point: Zenister, you're under 93 with that MA aren't you I know because I KNOW where the wall is for that profession, I've tried on two sperate charaters to get over it wihtout over equiping my MA, and in the end, you have to to solo.

    The notion of forcing others to make the same decisions we choose to make for ourselves reeks of petty thought, and jealiousy. Let others excel, what they do is not important to me. What *I* do should be my ( and i'm opinion others ) primary focus. Not telling others how to behave.

    Next point, untill you have walked a mile in someone else shoes, dont' presume to tell them they must suck at building thier character. ( para phrasing you ). You just don't know.

    May you reep what you sow.

  17. #157

    Re: Re: Re: Re: 14.2 bad

    Originally posted by Sarelron


    Incorrect assumption? If you read my original post and what I was responding to, I am in favor of the changes as well. I was responding to someone who said FC doesn't listen because this patch is still going through. I also agree wholeheartedly with what you have said here. On the forums, those happy with an OE fix outnumber those complaining, *and* people complaining are more likely to post than those who are happy. Put those two statements together and guess what, people want this change!

    Sarelron
    Whoops

  18. #158

    Have u any Clue to ?

    Sarelron

    do u have any clue as to what is involved in castin a wrangle ?

    thats all i ask ................

    and i mean a good wrangle say + 93 or above......


    and stop sayin we are anti team we are not

    enough

  19. #159

    Re: Hmmmmmmmm

    Originally posted by Felix7
    well,
    i seem to have been classed an anti teaming trader here by a certain person !!!!!!!
    Who? Where? =)

    i was tryin to point out the fact that when a trader is in a team and ppl in that team are OE the trader will have to constantly hit the mobs with deprives and ransacks to be able to cast a wrangle every 3min to keep the team at best efficency, there is no problem with this but the ammount of time it takes and the chances of mobs resisting if u on a hard mission will make it very unlikey that the team will get the wrangles they need to keep pets workin and guns at best .............

    or will ppl after the patch just use average equipment in teams and therefore not req a trader and just take less risky missions for less rewards and poorer loot.......
    Now that I understand. From your original post, it sounded as if you were just scoffing at buffing your teammates. I think that what was intended was for wrangles to be nice team buffs. If they fix the fact that it doesn't add much to your damage, they can still be great team buffs. I don't think that what FC intends post 14.2 is for traders to be taken along on missions to keep OE'd equipment on. I would personally love to see wrangles have a better effect as buffs, and traders welcomed in groups for their wrangles and debuffs.

    Sarelron

  20. #160
    Saleron, the difference does probably come from being off 30 quality levels on the implants then. You would still be hit VERY hard by the debuffs though, and since you are implanted to the hilt on the minor skills imagine what your average adventurer is going to feel like when he is doing (possibly) no damage because he has negative heavy weapons skill.
    Fausto "Dealbreaker" Age

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