Overequipping and the IP reset: A follow-up

[___________Graukonig]

A couple questions:

1. If one MOB attacks me and one attacks my pet will my pet stop attacking after he kills his MOB even if the other MOB is still attacking me?

2. It was stated in the article that debuffs will reduce creature damage. Do you mean just direct damage debuffs like "stifle rage" or will nano and weapons skill debuffs also have an effect? Also there is a comment about debuffing MOBs at end of post.

A few comments:

1. When I saw the traders abilities in the Beta I knew that this class was going to be very powerful. Now they have become the single most powerful class in PvP. With perhaps one counter in the form of the MA. As a MP I thought that I may be able to counter the Trader because of my nano skill debuffs but they take longer to cast then those of the trader even thought mine only debuffs one skill and the traders does around 20. Every class needs more than one class to counter it in order for there to be balance. For instance the MP which is not a weak class is countered in PvP by every class with roots. Some better than others of course. Perhaps when you boost the adventurers that can be their job.

2. On the topic of Agents, the OE element of the patch should be their sole boost. After OE is put in they will gain the a good part of the PvP boost that the traders will get.

On a side note: I have no idea why they ever created the Agent class. Perhaps they wanted added challenge of balancing a game with a class that can do everything the other classes can.

[ironphist]

Thank you so much Gaute. . .

Thanks for the advanced notice . . . this should give me plenty of time to find a new game to play.

You've rewarded the lazy/ignorant & punished the diligent.

Has FC seriously considered what this could do to its player-base??

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Asmodan


Exactly, I tried to illustrate this a couple of time myself, but people don't get it. The lowest requirement on a weapon is the one that will hurt you the most when debuffed. As if there weren't enough totally useless weapons in this game as it is, now several more will get added to that category because they have skill low requirement that is heavily debuffable. Heavy Weapons, Ranged Energy, SMG/MG on everything but straight SMG's, or any other 'secondary' weapon skill on weapons that have a 67/33% split on requirements.

You know who will get debuffed the hardest of all? Adventurers....

Dark blue heavy weapons
LOW heavy weapons requirements on Riders

Example:

Look at this Chipped Rider Executioner

It takes 285 Heavy Weapons

This is roughly what my wife has equipped at level 66 (dual wielding) and she is well within in the OE rules.

My level 66 trader can debuff her Heavy Weapons skill by 271 points! Hell, I could do it by more if I bothered to find my next nano, forcing her negative.

This has been my only real concern to the OE patch: the affect it has on multiskill weapons. With a little math wrangling and coding I'd hope it's possible to determine the percentage of overequipped based on the percentage the skill applies to the overall needed skill. That or multiskilled weapons are in need of some serious downtuning.

[Bionitrous]

It is my understanding that you can only have one of any type of MA attack in inventory at any time. For example the Snake attack that is pure MA. So if you debuffed, you can't even use a lower QL of the attack because you're not allowed to own a lower quality level?

Is this the intended behavior?

[______________Vashti]

Well, looks like they really are going to do it. Well the bright side is i'll be able to play my adv again and make him cool (although with the OE parts of the patch it wont really help him all that much).

I did have one question
on the IPR's u say u get 90 points.

So does 1 point of IPR reset 1 skill, is that how it works?
just wondering

Vash

[______________Katwon]

Hats off to Funcom for a detailed and informative post. This is the kind of information we've been looking for all along.

I strongly support both the OE rules and IPR rules as proposed. In regards to IPR, the game requires that you change your strategy as you progress from low-level to mid and high-level. Too often we see advice that works for high levs being touted as the "Way to Salvation" for low levs as well. It simply doesn't work that way. When to transition between strategies is a judgement call by the player -- it adds to the challenge of the game! And usually you will not be changing more than 3 skills generally, so the number of points is reasonable (not that I wouldn't mind having more!).

In regards to OE, this will make the game much more challenging and will limit the advantage of those who twink their lower-level friends. While it's true that pet users will be hit by this patch, they will now be on the same level as weapon users and casters. Yes, traders may become the most sought-after teammates in the game, but with these OE rules traders now work as originally envisioned: a trader shouldn't have to fight, he should be providing the much-needed buffs to his friends and debuffs to his enemies. It may be that trader debuffs are a bit overpowered, that will have to be looked at. But I think simply reducing the duration of the debuff or, better yet, having the nano turn off when its caster dies, will remedy much of this problem.

Again, well done, FC. I dropped out of the game in disgust in October but gave it another try in December. You guys have come a long way towards getting your act together. Good job, and keep up the good work. Even though I'm an agent who lives and dies by OE, I'm anxiously awaiting this patch!

Regards,
Katwon

[Valoren]

Good stuff, patch has my approval! =)

To all of you quiting, can I have your stuff? =)

[gnuman]

I wonder if we play the same game. This is AO right?

All my chars are able to solo, and I am pretty sure they will be in 14.2 aswell. But teams are faster xp. Do I want it changed? No. What fun in a mmorpg if everyone sits and plays their singleplayer mmorpg with the only thing that connects people are the chats and the buffing between the missions. This game is a multiplayer-game designed for multiplayer-experiences. Thereby not said you can not solo.

And to the engineer saying that he will be 0 risc for a trader to kill in the arena because the trader will just debuff him before the pet attacks.
1) If a trader debuffs you so much that 1 debuff will disabled your pet you either overequipped too much or the trader is of much higher level of you.
2) Pets have 0sec attackspeed. Those debuffs has 3sec attackspeed and 6sec recharge. Engineers got plenty of time to get the pet to attack.

I really think you should give funcom a chance to let this patch hit the test. And I really hope they get the char-transfer made so we can test it proberly.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Ironphist
Thank you so much Gaute. . .

Thanks for the advanced notice . . . this should give me plenty of time to find a new game to play.

You've rewarded the lazy/ignorant & punished the diligent.

Has FC seriously considered what this could do to its player-base??

"lazy"? "ignorant"? "diligent"?

Hmm....How do you say "Horsecrap!"? Oh yeah...Horsecrap!

Let's define "diligent", shall we. Maybe the first 2 or 3 agents that discovered how to effectively OE themselves into their rifle or the soldiers that figured out what buffs/implants were needed to get the ql 200 Novaflow into their hands at xxx level were diligent. Then a lot of people followed suit through various guides written all over the place, help through their guild whose members had already done it, etc. OE is no longer innovation. It's carbon copying.

[_______________Forth]

Good follow-up article. Nice to get further clarification.

(screenshot of the 'rp' field and button)

Why have a numeric field in there at all? Can you put more than one RP into a skill at the same time? Seems odd.

edit1: And, on a further note, the intial 90 point RP.
Are you limited to one skill, one point, or can you reset one skill 90 times? (as an extreme example)

Will the other skill/ability bonuses from weapons be affected as well?

For example: the +8 of Strength skill from using Concrete Cushions... The answer is: not in the first iteration. The reason why, is more or less the same as for implants.

Yay! And good point.

Also, if they reset their abilities last, they might find they have some "illegally" high skills. We shall accept this.

Um. So this becomes a new form of Overequipping?
1. boost a base stat
2. max out a skill to 'n'
3. reset base stat and the skill will still be at 'n', not 'n - something'?

for example:
100th level adventurer, who for some reason, doesn't need many points in Strength.

1. Boost Strength to 100 points
2. Max out Brawl to 139.
3. reset Strength, and reallocate, ending with Strength at 50.

Brawl STAYS at 139 rather than dropping to 72?

edit2: whoops, my bad. "illegal" refers only to the skill cap.
So Brawl would drop, but could stop above the skill cap.

[Sarelron]

Originally posted by Ginsberg


If you brought some ideas maybe I wouldnt mind reading your posts.

Showing up and telling someone they dont know what it means to play their class is arogant and childish.

Yes, my comment took my feeling about the original post to extremes. It seems to me, from reading a lot of posts from traders, that they:

1) Will be "uber" in PvP
2) Are upset because they can't sell their Wrangles anymore

What upsets me is point 2. Traders claim their wrangles are worthless (post 14.2). However, all things aside (like wrangles not increasing damage as they should), wrangles were originally intended (afaik) as buffs for groups. But the original poster scoffed at the idea of actually grouping with people and buffing them. Traders aren't meant to be uber damage dealers, which is what the general concensus seems to be from many of the trader posts. The original line I was replying to is "LOL so u ppl think we were buff machines b4 what will we be now ? in teams constantly depriving mobs if we can to cast wrangles so ppl can hit better what a joke." That sounds (again, to me) extremely selfish. By the same reasoning, are team heals and nano's a joke? Casting them over and over just to give your group an edge? It's the selfish anti-team attitude that got me going.

Sarelron

[_______________Elria]

Hi,

I still think 14.2 is a good patch, overall.

. I don't play a pet class, but I do think there might be problems with totally shutting down pets.
. I do not find it logical that special attack skills are taken into account. Why not use only the skills that make up the ATK rating? (even better, use the ATK rating itself) And consider the special attacks separately?
. ok, so it is true that the big 20% step can act as a protecting buffer vs debuffs, but... I'd still like smaller steps, I guess.
. about the IP Reset: "Also, if they reset their abilities last, they might find they have some "illegally" high skills. We shall accept this." really?

About not reducing the HP of MOBs:

This is not the same as saying that we'll NEVER do it - just that I would like to watch the impact of the current changes first. I am afraid of doing too many changes at the same time, and what the synergy of them might be.

just quoting this because some people might have missed it on the first reading...

Originally posted by *****
It's the casual player who gets the smackdown once again, we don't have the time to figure out if a 89 weapon will be OE and a 88 won't and don't want to and no I'm not talking about getting trader buffs, I'm talking about getting ransacked and deprived by mission mobs and losing all ability melee and defend.

The only thing in the OE fix that will affect the casual (non-OE'er) player will be debuffs (and buffs). But remember that it will *also* hit the not-so-casual players.
As for finding out if QL 89 will be worse than QL 88, it is true that it would be nice to have some kind of in-game tool which will tell us that.
Besides, I think the guys and gals on Rubi-Ka will simply start keeping their lower QL weapon in a bag, as a backup, just in case of debuffs.

Originally posted by starknaked
The only real problem I have with this is that it will make PVP even more difficult for the average casual player.

This is because, with the everpresent option of resetting IP points, players will be able to totally configure themselves for PVP. They will reach a certain level, decide it's time to PVP for a while, and then redo their IP points. Pull >everything< out of breaking and entering, trap disarm, nanoskills that don't assist in pvp, tradeskills, etc.

My question is: when can one afford to totally configure oneself for PvP? The 90 IPR are only temporary. They shall be gone after the patch 14.4, then, one has to carefully spend these points... For example, if I wanted to reset the Treatment skill, that would probably mean that I don't want to use nano rechargers/treatment labs and I won't be changing my implants anytime soon.
Also, keep in mind that one can raise a skill by 5 points per level, at most.

Bah, anyway, I don't like PvP that much. Where I hope FC can make AO shine is in Team PvP. That would be a lot more fun, IMHO

[_______________Forth]

Hm...do trader debuffs affect vehicle skills?

That would create a new sport of "debuff the other player in his yalmaha..."

You take 10000 points of fall damage!

*splat*

[Sarelron]

Originally posted by Forth
Good follow-up article. Nice to get further clarification.

...

for example:
100th level adventurer, who for some reason, doesn't need many points in Strength.

1. Boost Strength to 100 points
2. Max out Brawl to 139.
3. reset Strength, and reallocate, ending with Strength at 50.

Brawl STAYS at 139 rather than dropping to 72?

No, Brawl would be reduced to Brawl - Number of Points Given to Brawl by Raising Strength.

The "illegal" skill levels lie in skill caps based on base ability. You can raise a base ability, max a skill based on that ability higher than you would be able to without raising said ability, then reset the base ability. This *will* remove any points put into the skill directly by raising the ability, but you will still be left with a skill that is higher than it would be able to raise without raising the base ability.

Make sense? =)

Sarelron

P.S. Someone had to explain that one to me too =)

[Cheetra]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by hexxia
scenario: engi enters a PvP area.
trader ransacks engi.
pet cant respond
engi runs
trader roots engi.
trader risk vs engi: 0
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUOTE:

counter scenario 1:
MA enters a PvP area.
trader ransacks MA.
MA's weapons take a 20% reduced effectiveness.
MA dimachs + brawls trader, because trader debuffs don't affect special attacks.
severely hurt trader still taking damage, albeit reduced, goes for a health plunder.
MA brawls again since it's recharged.
trader patiently waits 60 seconds for his equipment at the reclaim.

In 1 on 1 PvP there's a counter for almost every profession. It's all about who gets first strike. I didn't even mention high level PvP involving an MP, who on first strike can completely shutdown a trader and keep him there with nanoshutdown and mind quakes.

Are you high?! MA weapons take = -50% damage based on who this patch is descriped. Get your numbers right.

Trader vs MA = DEAD MA, naice try, learn you facts before you post.

NEXT POINT: ma's cant use weapon and special attack, STRIKE 2, you must de-equip requip the wepon to use a special attack.

NEXT: MA can't heal for jack when deprived, trader between health funnels and weapon attacks. kicks the living cr4p our of the MA. STRIKE 3

Just because you may have had one experience at pvp vs a MA 20 levels higher then you don't mean you know what your talking about, MA's as a rule need about 5 to 10 levels on an opponent to beat them. The classes that give use the MOST problems? TRADERS and DOC'S >p

[gnuman]

Originally posted by Sarelron


Yes, my comment took my feeling about the original post to extremes. It seems to me, from reading a lot of posts from traders, that they:

1) Will be "uber" in PvP
2) Are upset because they can't sell their Wrangles anymore

What upsets me is point 2. Traders claim their wrangles are worthless (post 14.2). However, all things aside (like wrangles not increasing damage as they should), wrangles were originally intended (afaik) as buffs for groups. But the original poster scoffed at the idea of actually grouping with people and buffing them. Traders aren't meant to be uber damage dealers, which is what the general concensus seems to be from many of the trader posts. The original line I was replying to is "LOL so u ppl think we were buff machines b4 what will we be now ? in teams constantly depriving mobs if we can to cast wrangles so ppl can hit better what a joke." That sounds (again, to me) extremely selfish. By the same reasoning, are team heals and nano's a joke? Casting them over and over just to give your group an edge? It's the selfish anti-team attitude that got me going.

Sarelron

Will you please stop talking about traders in general at once? If you investigated more than looking at one thread you would have gone to the trader-board and seen that your wrangle-thoughts simply are not the general opinion about traders.

And traders being pvp-gods..... We are good, but not gods. If you base this on traders today most of the <90 twinks will have to rebuild their trader pretty much and not being that effective anymore. If you base this on the article you either did not read it or just jumps on the "traders will be pvp-gods"-bandwagon.

[gnuman]

Originally posted by Forth
Hm...do trader debuffs affect vehicle skills?

That would create a new sport of "debuff the other player in his yalmaha..."

You take 10000 points of fall damage!

*splat*

It doesn't

[_____________Asmodan]

Originally posted by Sarelron


Well, I can't pull up my rider reqs right now, but I swing duel 104, and the HW reqs for a 100 are 285. My unbuffed HW is currently 460.

Sarelron

At level 77, assuming you max your HW every level you would have <BASE> + 231, assuming you have QL 100 implants in you'd gain an extra +108.

That is assuming you gave up both the Shining and Faded slots for One Handed Edged and used them for Heavy Weapons. Giving up 77 point of 1HE for some reason or another.

So, we got you at <BASE> +339, let's be liberal and give you 50 points of base, so you are up to 389.

Where exactly are you getting those extra 70 points from? Also, how exactly are you meeting the OHE requirements (which is much higher than the HW) with only a single bright cluster for it?

So lets say you ARE sitting at 389 unbuffed HW, requirements on a QL104 are 442 OHE and 293 HW. A similar level trader could lower your HW by 325, leaving you with a whopping 64.

Percentage cut offs for a QL 104 Rider, based on HW skill:

80%: 234
60%: 176
40%: 117
20%: 58

Just as I said... you'll be doing -50% damage, and REALLY close to -75%. Not to mention being dubuffed by 325 points means you lose 325 to your attack rating, which is damn the loss of 81.25% damage multiplier to the base of damage of your weapon. (400 attack rating = +100% of base weapon damage).

Let's not even get into your one implant 1HE skill (which as I figure it is pretty close to the requirements on the weapon).

[______________Gerinn]

Originally posted by Lucid Flow



The problem is that at level 108, you need about 2.3m exp to level. A yellow mob at that level might give you 7-10k exp.

That means you have to kill 230 yellow conned mobs (max 10k exp each) in order to level once.

Do you know how much time that will take?

Welcome to Everquest!

[RoboKa]

When "IP Reset" is implmented, I will be awarded about 90 points. Some of these are based on Initial IP Reset and some are based on my Title Level. You have given a table that states specifically no many will be from the Title Level based part. You have also stated that the ones from the Initial IP Reset will disappear in about 3 weeks (at the next patch).

• How many exactly are form the Initial IP Reset or how will this be calculated?
• Hypothetically, lets say I get 85 for Initial IP Reset. If I am level 150 I should get 11 points for Title Level. Therefore I get 96 points. If I should use 10 Reset Points, after then next patch will I have 11 or 1? In other words, when I use Reset Points from my initial pool, which source will they first be deducted from; Initial IP Reset Points or Title Level Reset Points. This important since it will effect the number I have remaining after the next patch. This will greatly effect the ways and spped with which we address the reset point issue.

If another player buffs me, am I required to have the skills necessary to run the nano program in order to wear the buff?

If another player is buffed by yet someone else and then uses those skills to buff me, but then deletes or otherwise looses the buffs that gave him the skills to buff me, will the buff on me continue?

Are you working on an item to end a root on my pet when the attacker dies (i.e. when all combat for me and the pet end)? Opps sorry, belongs in different thread, but you reminded me of it!