Hi Koyote,
How about if we could expand that thought and say:
Apply all of the OE rules in PvP only (that would include the trader debuffs as well).
But then I think we would be asking too much.
Hi Koyote,
How about if we could expand that thought and say:
Apply all of the OE rules in PvP only (that would include the trader debuffs as well).
But then I think we would be asking too much.
A veteran player...
Hello All,
I have read about 20 pages of this thread and I feel pity for most of the players who are looking forward to the change.
I have been playing the game since launch (which techincally means I have been here since beta.) =) Most of the people that are stating how wonderful things will be because "FunCom can then tone down the mobs after the patch goes in..." are missing the boat. From what I read it doesn't appear that there will be a 'toning down' of mob AC and HP.
All of the people who cried about 'uber' Enforcers, Soldiers, MPs, etc. should be happy now. You should be happy because FunCom apparently only listens to whiners and you ARE DESTROYING THIS GAME. Pretty soon everyone will be the same. Pretty soon we will all have shotgun wielding traders or MPS. Boy, that will be soooooo fun. A bunch of dress wearing p3nis-less freaks (atrox) running around with shotguns.
Welcome to Evercamp, Asheron's Crawl and Dark Stages of Crapalot. Now, with most of the professions dealing out the same damage, YOU whiners are in a lot of trouble. The twink 'sucked' so bad, but I bet he / she didn't suck when he / she was tanking for your team. Now, that team tank will get mauled over and you will all die.
We all know the feeling when a pull turns bad and a couple of mobs ending up jumping the party. Currently, with the OE tank (whether that be a char or bot) the party may have survived. Now, imagine how 'fun' things will be when that blood red TAC hits the party and he happens to have another tag along. As the two TACs are tearing through your party I hope you at least have your run speed maxed so you can run into the Lifebleeder's loving grasp quickly. =)
Obviously my example points to the 40-60 level range. I have toons ranging from level 10 to 160. The OE change will cause an exodus far worse that 12.6. All of you people that are 'for the OE change' and are here shooting off your mouths, I look forward to watching you eat your words two weeks after the patch comes out.
FunCom could mess up a wet dream!! What make you think there is even a remote possiblity that this patch will go in and work as planned? This patch will HURT things so badly. All of you people with your powerful 80th level characters are in for a world of pain soon... good luck making it to 100. See you next YEAR when you make level 90. LOL
This is a joke. This 'fix' is a pathetic grasp at straws. The problem is, the only straw Gaute will grasp is the one that will break the proverbial camel's back. I am not quitting the game, I am just stating a fact. I hope, no I pray, that I am wrong. But I know I'm not. So all of you "this is great! good job" people, keep smiling as you say goodbye to all of your 'uber' friends when they quit. Keep smiling as you have to chat for hours because you are terrified to leave the city....
Gaute you are a fool. Those of us who don't use our parent's credit card to play the game know this. I am all for an OE fix, but we all know that this isn't the way to do it. The only thing you are doing is rewarding the people who cheated in the first place, and punishing the casual / new player base.
FunCom, when you fire Gaute, can I have his job?
Strike
Implementing separate PvP and PvM restrictions on players would continue to extend the balancing nightmare. When you have 2 sets of game mechanics governing gameplay, the potential for one set to overrun or negatively affect the other is constantly present. And say what people want about maintaining good changelogs and code versions, in reality it never really works well in this type of situation. You might as well split the dev team into PvM and PvP design teams.Originally posted by Koyote
Dear Funcom,
Now that the Traders are at the top of the wahhh-sniffle-cry Nerf them list, Do us all a big favor.
When you Nerf them (and I am pretty sure you will because you seem intent on destroying the game for PVP sake) ...
ONLY nerf them for PVP!
Use 2 sets of rules and STOP the nerfing madness over PVP!
1 for PVP Nerfs.
2 Leave them as they are for Missions!
Oh hell no! And that goes for every profession's debuffs, not just traders. It makes no sense and it assumes a very solo oriented viewpoint in both PvP and PvM.Originally posted by Koyote
There is one trader nerf I strongly support and have mentioned it before. When a trader dies make his debuff end right then.
The manner in which debuffs work in the game are very similiar to a computer trojan. The hostile code makes it past whatever defenses are in place and is executed. There's no further interaction required by the person that created it. So why should it terminate simply because the person died? Once they executed the debuff on you, they're not maintaining it with a constant flow of nanopoints. They're not altering its effects with a conscious effort.
But this is a game. Who said we had to let logic intrude on our reality? However the effects that a debuff has on both PvP and PvM from a team standpoint are another story. In PvP, my death shouldn't necessarily invalidate my contribution to the team. If I get killed, my team is still facing a weakened opponent.
Mobs don't trully team in PvM. The AI isn't advanced enough to allow them team tactics. But a debuff executed by a mob forces the player to alter their strategy. The player has to consider a new course of action taking into account their weapon and nanoskills are debuffed by -100. Or that they might not be able to outrun pursuing mobs after getting their runspeed debuffed. Long lasting roots suck, I'll agree. But I hope eventually FC will also bring back mobs that wander from room to room in missions, which increases the challenge of facing Fixer mobs in missions.
Instead of asking for debuffs to drop when the mob dies, push for items everyone can use to eliminate hostile programs. An item that could only be used when not in combat, that requires nanoprogramming skill to use would be appropriate. Then give relevant professions, like nanotechnicians and engineers, nanos that could do the same during combat (with an appropriate execute/recharge time to prevent them from instantly invalidating debuffs).
A friend who has a closed account is considering returning with the ip reset patch. I was wondering, do they need to reopen their account before the patch goes live to receive the 90 or so reset points? Or can they wait until after and still receive them?
...Crumbles some cookies on the ground to attract the attention of Cz...
Please note the LACK OF A RESPONSE AT ALL from FC now. They are pretty much doing exactly what I thought they would. Tell you wants gonna happen, get some feedback to make you think that you actually can change something, then ignore you and everyone will forget about it eventually til 3 days before it happens. Lame.
Freshman Malcom "Raysight" Age
Deep Winter Faction
If you feel your feedback doesn't cause any significant change, then spare us the complaints about it. As noted by many of the more reasonable people, both 'fanboys' and 'whineboys', it'd be physically impossible to respond personally and intelligently to every single thread on the board and get any significant work done. The dev team has proven before they listen to feedback. Or do you not remember the original plan for OE which would have caused all OE equipment to deequip immediately, with no 20% buffer zone, about a full major revision number ago?Originally posted by Raysight
Please note the LACK OF A RESPONSE AT ALL from FC now. They are pretty much doing exactly what I thought they would. Tell you wants gonna happen, get some feedback to make you think that you actually can change something, then ignore you and everyone will forget about it eventually til 3 days before it happens. Lame.
Those mobs are still with us. Most recently sighted last night...Originally posted by Kuroshio
I'll agree. But I hope eventually FC will also bring back mobs that wander from room to room in missions, which increases the challenge of facing Fixer mobs in missions.
Hehe, so not only are you asking not to fix something that frustrates everyone but the most hardcore role players, and then, on top of that you are asking everyone to sink what is a dark blue skill for most of the classes?
Instead of asking for debuffs to drop when the mob dies, push for items everyone can use to eliminate hostile programs. An item that could only be used when not in combat, that requires nanoprogramming skill to use would be appropriate. Then give relevant professions, like nanotechnicians and engineers, nanos that could do the same during combat (with an appropriate execute/recharge time to prevent them from instantly invalidating debuffs).
HUH?
At a word: yes.Originally posted by Carrah
Hehe, so not only are you asking not to fix something that frustrates everyone but the most hardcore role players, and then, on top of that you are asking everyone to sink what is a dark blue skill for most of the classes?
HUH?
The ability to remove a debuff you've been inflicted with is pretty powerful, both in PvP and PvM. That's why I say it shouldn't be because whatever executed the debuff dies. And removing a debuff at will should be at a healthy price to do so, if your profession doesn't have an innate ability to do so. Otherwise debuffs are trivialized and so are the professions that have them.
If a fixer in my team has debuffed you to keep you from running in PvP, he's done his job for the team. Killing him shouldn't negate his efforts to the team because his efforts before he got killed can still benefit the team. Team PvP is about the last team member standing in the end.
As for the mobs, they're stupid. Without some advantages over thinking players, the challenge they present becomes trivial as well. The backflip at each new level means nothing without some challenge to earning it. Otherwise if people just needed a free pat on the back occasionally, they could find a free support group to do it for them.
History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris
The first faults are theirs that commit them, the second theirs that permit them. - Unknown
Did you ever get the feeling that the world had an abundance of idiots? And that God had arranged for you to meet every single one of them before you died? - Kuroshio
Actually it does no such thing, thank you very much.Originally posted by Kuroshio
Oh hell no! And that goes for every profession's debuffs, not just traders. It makes no sense and it assumes a very solo oriented viewpoint in both PvP and PvM.
Traders Trade skills and maintain the skill trade. They keep the program running, when they die they can no longer maintain the trade so the Buff should end.
I don't think all buffs should end when someone dies but I do believe a Traders Deprive SHOULD die when the trader dies for reasons stated above. BTW I am speaking as a Trader myself.
Also All wrangles, team wrangles ect should end when the trader is no longer able to maintain the trade.
And as for the game mechanics PVP is already ruining the rest of the game so 2 sets of rules make more sense than driving the majority of users away. Do you see how empty AO is? It was not always so.
Let's agree to Disagree
-Koyote
Last edited by Koyote; Mar 29th, 2002 at 01:35:17.
The same logic could be used to say that MP/Engineer/Crat pets should be persistent. They should continue to function after the owner has died. Are you advocating that as well?Originally posted by Kuroshio
At a word: yes.
The ability to remove a debuff you've been inflicted with is pretty powerful, both in PvP and PvM. That's why I say it shouldn't be because whatever executed the debuff dies. And removing a debuff at will should be at a healthy price to do so, if your profession doesn't have an innate ability to do so. Otherwise debuffs are trivialized and so are the professions that have them.
There is nothing that a debuff does after the fight in PvM, except hinder the player from progressing further. Therefore, I'm personally against persistent buffs as it takes away from my overall enjoyment of the game. If you believe that you are leveling too fast, well, you can always meditate for five minutes after each fight. It's your perogative to believe that. It's your style of the game to RP, do it "realistically", whatever. It's mine to try to attain levels so that I can entertain a notion of putting a better piece of armor, gun, whatever, so I can escape, first the newbie zone, then towns, then whatever. Isn't change good?
Alternative argument could be made that a team should keep support classes away from the frontline. Then again, it's not clear to me what the support classes are in this game, due to constant balance changes. After all, we are talking about traders, who were originally meant to be a support class, but have emerged as a major force in PvP. If a damage dealer dies, that damage is taken away from the team. Shouldn't the same happen to debuffs?
If a fixer in my team has debuffed you to keep you from running in PvP, he's done his job for the team. Killing him shouldn't negate his efforts to the team because his efforts before he got killed can still benefit the team. Team PvP is about the last team member standing in the end.
This isn't an argument about the intelligence of AI. There are many ways to fix that. One of them is to give mobs godly stats (initiatives, ac, hp, nano skills, etc) to overcome the difference. Most of the posts against OE bring up the fact that even with OE in place people have a hard time attaining levels as they progress through the game. Since funcom will not lower the AC of the mobs after OE patch, the balance will shift in the favor of the mobs. Evidently for some, that's not enough.
As for the mobs, they're stupid. Without some advantages over thinking players, the challenge they present becomes trivial as well. The backflip at each new level means nothing without some challenge to earning it. Otherwise if people just needed a free pat on the back occasionally, they could find a free support group to do it for them.
Obviously some people still feel challenged. After all, you see them continue playing this game. And I surely hope its not just because they want to ding. I believe it's because of the incentives that come with that ding.
Don't forget that when you minimize OE of weapons in particular you will make VIABLE a slew of weapons that have more than ONE Skill.
All you whiners about how this will make "Everyone look the same--cookie cutters etc" Ought to think again. Think--NOW if you want to be different than Everyone else--you have to decide to be WEAKER.
Different = Weaker now. Get it? Get over it.
Add in these changes and see how diverse the population will become--again.
Could you give me an example of such a weapon swap? I'm very curious what are you talking about.Originally posted by Thruthvang
Don't forget that when you minimize OE of weapons in particular you will make VIABLE a slew of weapons that have more than ONE Skill.
As a soldier, I use Nova Flow - Mk IV
Here is a comparable level shotty: Krutt Assault 219 Fandango
With 12% chance of critical hit, and ranged init of 300, both weapons deal out an almost identical damage.
I don't get it. Once again, please explain to me how is weaker better, and for whom?
Different = Weaker now. Get it? Get over it.
Hehe, yes it will be. It will be full of untwinked people running around Baboons in Miir underwear.
Add in these changes and see how diverse the population will become--again.
The argument being made is not about the look that people will have. It's about how everyone will be identical per class, per level. There are few viable weapons in AO. I think there are about 10-15 total. And yes, I can name them all if you'd like.
Or will they?
I believe that after OE patch, the whining will shift towards the implants (Implants are part of AO advertising campain, right?). Once again, people will start complaining that they can't afford implants (full ql 90 implant set, that can be worn at lvl 50 will cost you around 1-2mil credits, not including the cost of tipping the NPer). Just compare the cost of 132 wrangle with the cost of 2 ql 90 implants in store.
There will be another cry, however, and it will come from those who will see their damage halve, and will be forced to remove their weapons, and swap them for ritual krys knives.
MP's/Engineer/Crats actively control their pet. The controlling person dies, there's nobody left to control it. If pet classes had the ability to set a secondary master, I'd be all for it. Especially Engineer botsOriginally posted by Carrah
The same logic could be used to say that MP/Engineer/Crat pets should be persistent. They should continue to function after the owner has died. Are you advocating that as well?
'Allegedly' missions involve storming a place, acheiving the objective, and getting out again. The mobs in the mission area are there to guard that area. To me it's logical that guarding the area would involve doing anything possible to eliminate, repel, or hinder trespassers.Originally posted by Carrah
There is nothing that a debuff does after the fight in PvM, except hinder the player from progressing further. Therefore, I'm personally against persistent buffs as it takes away from my overall enjoyment of the game. If you believe that you are leveling too fast, well, you can always meditate for five minutes after each fight. It's your perogative to believe that. It's your style of the game to RP, do it "realistically", whatever. It's mine to try to attain levels so that I can entertain a notion of putting a better piece of armor, gun, whatever, so I can escape, first the newbie zone, then towns, then whatever. Isn't change good?
Those are apples and oranges. Damage dealing is a direct contribution to the team's overall objective: kill the opponent. Debuffing is almost an indirect contribution: make it easier for the team to kill the opponent. It shouldn't be "make it easier for the team to kill the opponent while I'm alive". If that's the case, then I'd want debuffs to have no expiration time. Have them reduce the caster's nanopoints over time. And so long as the debuffer has nanopoints, the debuff stays. That'd be terrific for boss mobsOriginally posted by Carrah
Alternative argument could be made that a team should keep support classes away from the frontline. Then again, it's not clear to me what the support classes are in this game, due to constant balance changes. After all, we are talking about traders, who were originally meant to be a support class, but have emerged as a major force in PvP. If a damage dealer dies, that damage is taken away from the team. Shouldn't the same happen to debuffs?
This whole part is debateable. I'll agree with the people that say there should be a way ingame to remove debuffs ourselves. It makes sense that someone should have the ability to remove hostile nanoprograms from people. I said FC should take it one step further by making an item anyone could use (with an appropriate cost) for solo situations. But to flat out remove debuffs because the person or mob that executed them died? That's just making things too easy.Originally posted by Carrah
This isn't an argument about the intelligence of AI. There are many ways to fix that. One of them is to give mobs godly stats (initiatives, ac, hp, nano skills, etc) to overcome the difference. Most of the posts against OE bring up the fact that even with OE in place people have a hard time attaining levels as they progress through the game. Since funcom will not lower the AC of the mobs after OE patch, the balance will shift in the favor of the mobs. Evidently for some, that's not enough.
Obviously some people still feel challenged. After all, you see them continue playing this game. And I surely hope its not just because they want to ding. I believe it's because of the incentives that come with that ding.
This is Anarchy Online. Personally, I'd recommend people wanting debuffs to drop unconditionally to wait for The Sims Online to be released.
History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris
The first faults are theirs that commit them, the second theirs that permit them. - Unknown
Did you ever get the feeling that the world had an abundance of idiots? And that God had arranged for you to meet every single one of them before you died? - Kuroshio
I believe weaker=different means that since you won't have to pump every available ip into a single skill weapon to overequip it to the max you will only want to raise a single skill a certain amount. Therefore, leaving ip (or even implant points) to raise other weapon skills. It does seem to follow if you use a weapon with more specials it could in theory deal more damage than the typical shotgun/sigma for many professions. I'm not sure how many skills the novaflow already uses.
Right now there are how many weapons ingame?
And how many are currently used?
Really there are a few weapons that a player pretty much must use. If they decide to go against the grain and equip a different weapon that is not friendly to OE because of many requirements for example, they will be weakening their character.
CURRENTLY...not after the OE changes... but right NOW.
Different does equate to weaker. No I am not talking about RPers running around in their underwear at the Nightclub, though you do bring up an added bonus feature--I think.
OE does not give real choices. It limits the development of characters and forces them into a particular path. I personally would rather have the option to use a Greater Range of viable weapons, than to have a greater range of QL for only 1 or 2 particular weapons.
Bye
(posting this only in a few threads I've recently been active on)
Date of registration 2001-06-28 08:30:23 UTC
Account status Open until 2002-04-06
Subscription is cancelled
Next billing Not scheduled
It was mostly a great 9 months
but I've made my feelings clear re: funcoms attitude;
pandering to newbs/children, dumbing down the game,
and just an increasingly anti-player approach to
extending subscriptions at the expense of fun.
remember that Simpsons episode where Homer calls the
1-900 football tips hotline wanting to know which team will win,
and the recording on the other end starts speaking very slowly
"according.. to .. the ...forecast... the .. temperature... will... be..."
"Yes, hurry up!"
.... the. . .. wind. ... is... coming...... from ...... a........ north.. easterly....
direction .... and...."
"Cmon! Cmon! Don't you know this is costing me money?"
That's basically what I feel AO is turning into.
So I've made the big decision and hit the cancel button.
I've been here a long time, many will be glad to see me go,
but I hope I've helped more of you than I've pissed off.
Scumbug, signing off.
The new patch will still allow the bot to finish it's current action after debuff/death of the owner. That's why from time to time you see slayerdroids in /pet hunt mode running around PvP areas.Originally posted by Kuroshio
MP's/Engineer/Crats actively control their pet. The controlling person dies, there's nobody left to control it. If pet classes had the ability to set a secondary master, I'd be all for it. Especially Engineer bots
Sure. But what difference does it make if you sit there in that room debuffed? Do mobs run out and conscript additional forces while you are rooted? Do they barricate the entrances? Do the mob engineers cast slayer droids? Do soldiers setup cannons?
'Allegedly' missions involve storming a place, acheiving the objective, and getting out again. The mobs in the mission area are there to guard that area. To me it's logical that guarding the area would involve doing anything possible to eliminate, repel, or hinder trespassers.
No. All that happens is that you waste 3 minutes of game play sitting in that stupid empty room waiting for the buffs to wear off. How does this add to the game play for most of the population? Remember, if you want to RP, you can always sit there and do nothing. Not even heal. I prefer a way to remove the debuff so I can continue playing and having fun.
No, they are not. Roots hinder the movement of the oponent. If you root a melee class and get out of range, you can kill them with impunity with your ranged weapon. These classes need a way to break roots. If you stack a dot with root, and get out of the zone, you will be able to take out the ranged classes as well.
Those are apples and oranges. Damage dealing is a direct contribution to the team's overall objective: kill the opponent. Debuffing is almost an indirect contribution: make it easier for the team to kill the opponent. It shouldn't be "make it easier for the team to kill the opponent while I'm alive". If that's the case, then I'd want debuffs to have no expiration time. Have them reduce the caster's nanopoints over time. And so long as the debuffer has nanopoints, the debuff stays. That'd be terrific for boss mobs
That makes for more imbalance.
Good, at least we agree on something.
This whole part is debateable. I'll agree with the people that say there should be a way ingame to remove debuffs ourselves. It makes sense that someone should have the ability to remove hostile nanoprograms from people. I said FC should take it one step further by making an item anyone could use (with an appropriate cost) for solo situations. But to flat out remove debuffs because the person or mob that executed them died? That's just making things too easy.
Personally I'd recommend that when SWG comes out, you stay here and continue to suggest improvements to AO. Flattery will get you nowhere.
This is Anarchy Online. Personally, I'd recommend people wanting debuffs to drop unconditionally to wait for The Sims Online to be released.
Oh, and I forgot to add these:
Sheesh
Now I know why I don't come here often... Sheesh, what a bunch of whiny babies. Oh no, I can't have a pet that's red to me, oh boohoo... I can't be a level 60 using a level 200 gun, oh boohoo... Oh but I *need* to have all level 200 gear at level 100, that's the way the game is designed... STFU
I think this patch is going to be great!
Once again, could you please give me an example of a weapon which is viable with OE, that can be replaced with another one (with more requirements) after the OE patch goes in, and will do more damage. And no, a shotgun -> shotgun/fling doesn't count.Originally posted by Thruthvang
OE does not give real choices. It limits the development of characters and forces them into a particular path. I personally would rather have the option to use a Greater Range of viable weapons, than to have a greater range of QL for only 1 or 2 particular weapons.
I believe that what you are trying to say is that given skill cap, players will seek the best value for their IP, and put the extra IP into specials to make up the difference.
See, most of the specials were destroyed at one time or another. These days, full auto, burst, and aimed shot do less damage than a crit from the same weapon. They also recycle relatively slowly (less fling), which makes them a once-per-fight option.
Putting a lot of IP into specials is fine for lower level play, when OE doesn't really matter anyway. At mid levels (50-100), however, you will begin to wish you never did that, as the IP wasted on the specials will come back and haunt you.
Finally, a lot of people choose the weapons not just for damage, but also for modifiers. That's why you see a lot of vector wearing MPs/NTs as that weapon adds to Psychic. Then there are some that add to MC/BM/MM, and I'm not just talking pillows here.
That's why there is little uniformity in the game atm. I'm not sure how the OE patch is going to change that.
OE patch is going to suck so much
Half the fun in a game like AO is over-equipping, vets shouldn't be gimped just because other people are too lazy or just don't have the rescoures to OE. It should be our privlage as vets to make our characters the best they can be. I'm totally against the over-equipping patch. IP reset is great though =)
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