Overequipping and the IP reset: A follow-up

[_______________Garzu]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


This would be if I were fighting a mirror copy of myself: a level 72 solitus trader. The IP shortage prevents maxing nanoinit still so instacast isn't availible.

Using the highest ransack availible to me without any buffs whatsoever + the next level deprive (availible only after that ransack is executed successfully), the amount of skill those 2 nanos would take off my maxed + implanted shotgun skill would only equal a 25% reduction in damage. To get 50%, my 'mirror' would have to use the prior successful ransack/deprive combo to 'ladder' into the next higher ransack. Which is the 3rd nanoexecution.

"Instacast"ing nanoformulas is not an immediate option, usually availible to the higher level players. So acting like every nano is instacast is a mild exaggeration. Forgetting to point out one of the major complaints of the NT, the ability to have those nanos blackholed/fumbled/resisted/interrupted, is a further exaggeration (though whether it's an exaggeration by omission or an exaggeration of the NT's complaints of the problem is unclear).

Someone else wrote they got ransacked/deprived for -400 putting them in negative nanoskills. Assuming I got hit by a trader with among the 3 strongest divest/plunders, I'd have negative nanoskills. Around -10 or so in my primary nanoskills, PsyMod and T&S. That's at level 72 and that would also be assuming that the trader that debuffed me somehow got around the level caps.

Too many people are spending too much time blowing a change they haven't even experienced way out of proportion. In reality, the pet owners are the people at risk the most with the semi "All or nothing" approach FC is stating towards using pets without having the required skills. Too many people are using the arguement that the amount of damage the trader can do combined with their debuff powers makes them "Uber" so FC should remove their profession's vulnerability to getting debuffed. Instead of reducing the real thing that makes the profession unbalanced: the trader profession's low cost and easy access to an overpowered weapon, shotguns like the Vektors. To me it's a cheap strategy to get a roadblock removed at the expense of the trader profession's ability to team effectively.

I've dealt with trader mobs and players before. Honestly, I hate MP's more with their attack init debuffs.

Lvl 72, ok, im lvl 170, and thats where I got my experiences.

INstacast is an option for all traders at lvl 120+

NTs chaincast nukes... in a combat we cast maybe 10-15 nukes when we solo... Traders got 2 offensive debuffs, so the chance of fumble/interupt/blackhole/resist is MUCH less.

I dont see your point, you say shotgun is overpowered, alot of oter ppl and profs use that weapon too... I dont see the balance problem in that weapon alone.

Heal + roots + debuffs + dmg Those 4 is Traders strongest fields, and nobody beats them in it except docs when it comes to healing, barely.

I dont care what they do, if they boost NR alot without making our nukes chain resistable, or nerf the debuffs to not effect nano skills. But after the OE nerf, the debuffs will be totally uber if they stay unchanged.

[_________________Zuh]

Maximilian you are arogant and obviously don't know what you are talking about.


Comparing overall IP cost for all the skills is completly absurd. You state some false infos all over your posts. You say the most costly class on nano skills is Adv. False. When you compare all the 6 skill cost, Fixer is by far the most costy class (12+16+12+12.5+16+12=80.5), without even considering first aid / treatment. And even when I state this I am wrong. Why ? Because all the skills do not need to be maxed. You end up with an precise cost of 12 per skill, so you have a 72 total cost. I should also take in account that only 2 of my skills need to be the highest possible, to avoid resistance.

And when I have compare my nano skill cost, I have to consider also what my class is intended to use, what other skill I have etc.


Just an exemple of how lame are your last posts here.

Read and learn how the game works.

[_______________Garzu]

TO ALL OF YOU WHO DONT LIKE MY NERF WHINES:

First, I just hate it when a lvl 75 totally disables my NT, I have NEVER resisted ANY of traders debuffs. NO exaggeration, I have NEVER resisted it. I am NT and got green NR skill, it is maxed and I got QL 200 bright and faded NR implants, but no resist vs traders debuffs.

FC claims NR works jsut as intended, they also claim it is nothing wrong with the code.

I am also afraid if FC boosts NR alot, ppl and mobs will start to chain resist my nukes.

IMO it should be no way a lvl 75 trader should be able to stack 2 debuffs EVERY single time.

Point is that they have to make them very resistable, without totally disableing nukes with 100% resist so that they get chain resisted. Its totally unacceptable that I never have resisted one single debuff from a trader. Same goes for doc init debuff, I have resisted it 1 time during my 170 lvl career. Only debuff I seem to resist more than just once a year is Nano shutdown. The rest of the MP debuffs is just as hard to resist as traders.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Garzu
TO ALL OF YOU WHO DONT LIKE MY NERF WHINES:

First, I just hate it when a lvl 75 totally disables my NT, I have NEVER resisted ANY of traders debuffs. NO exaggeration, I have NEVER resisted it. I am NT and got green NR skill, it is maxed and I got QL 200 bright and faded NR implants, but no resist vs traders debuffs.

FC claims NR works jsut as intended, they also claim it is nothing wrong with the code.

I am also afraid if FC boosts NR alot, ppl and mobs will start to chain resist my nukes.

IMO it should be no way a lvl 75 trader should be able to stack 2 debuffs EVERY single time.

If I can land both a deprive and a ransack on you with my level 72 trader (and he's not the highest trader nor other profession I have played), then I have to seriously question how you've made your character. Or question a bug with your character and nanoresist.

Anyone that's played a trader knows that landing a deprive on any target is easy. As Scumbug so helpfully posted, the Deprive line of nanos are hard to resist. Ransack line nanos on the other hand have a 190% resistability. They are very easy to resist, both for players and for mobs.

Trader mobs rarely go for both a Deprive/Divest and a Ransack/Plunder debuff combo. Most trader players won't waste the time going for both in a PvP fight (too much time wasted not plundering health to stay alive). So I question how much experience you really have against both nanos.

I'd question how the whole 'level 75 totally disables my NT' but anyone with a little intellect knows you're lying about that part. Seeing how the most a level 75 trader could debuff you with a combo ransack/deprive is -200. Even I can survive a -200 in skills from a trader and you have, what? 100 levels on me?

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Garzu

I dont see your point, you say shotgun is overpowered, alot of oter ppl and profs use that weapon too... I dont see the balance problem in that weapon alone.

Then you know nothing about shotguns. The shotguns have a large variation between min and max normal damage. And while they have a huge crit capacity, you really don't start landing crits until you go beyond the required skill on the shotgun. This is where the shotguns become overpowered in a trader's hands.

The majority of the people that overequip weapons no longer have the skills to deal crits regularly because the wrangle they got to equip the weapon has worn off. But if a trader can equip a shotgun with his base skills and then starts using ransack/deprive, his skill now jumps beyond the required skill and crits begin happening with more frequency. As I said, I barely have the skill (Shotgun of 427) to wield my current shotgun when using just a Shotgun Expertise buff. And it deals fairly normal damage under those conditions (between it's minimum of 6 and around 200 for targets with appropriate ac for their level). But if I land both a Deprive and Ransack Skills (Advanced), my shotgun skill jumps to 578. And I begin landing criticals for 1500 points rather easily.

Originally posted by Garzu
Heal + roots + debuffs + dmg Those 4 is Traders strongest fields, and nobody beats them in it except docs when it comes to healing, barely.

Bugged or unbugged healing? With the bug in healing at the moment, our heals are fairly strong. However, unbugged, the amount of damage we TAKE makes our healing fairly tame. In reality Docs and Adventurers (debatable on the Advs) are better healers. Having played a high level adventurer, I think Adventurers are better healers than traders.

Our roots break almost instantly if you sneeze hard at a rooted target. We do get an AE root line but there is a large span of levels between each new version.

Again, we have the best blanket debuffs. Duh! We have the only blanket debuffs. But an MP is a much more effective debuffer than we are. They can debuff nanos skills, debuff nano skills while dealing direct damage, and debuff combat init skills.

Originally posted by Garzu

I dont care what they do, if they boost NR alot without making our nukes chain resistable, or nerf the debuffs to not effect nano skills. But after the OE nerf, the debuffs will be totally uber if they stay unchanged.

Horse****...You care. You're almost fanatical about anything that can be used to un-'nerf' the NT profession. The fact is that you're not bothering to advocate fixing NTs and instead are choosing to get your fix by promoting removing your vulnerabilities to other preofessions. Of course with the short-sightedness that I've seen in your posts, if FC were to follow this 'strategy' of yours they'd

1. Reduce the effectiveness of the traders in team situations by removing the buffer nanoskills we use to transfer to the rest of the team and stay somewhat effective.
2. Have to redress the NT profession's balance when they do come around to fixing the NT problems because the profession would have only 1 real vulnerability left: the Metaphysicist.

Of course I seriously doubt you care about the first one, since the majority of your posts seem to take a decidedly SOLO slant to things. It's not like a trader mob will target the NT during team PvM. And in team PvP, the rest of your team should be slaughtering the trader while he's focused on one target.

And for some strange reason, I suspect you'd love only having to worry about MPs

[______________Gunf00]

Admittedly I did not read ALL 86 pages prior to my post, those that did you have my admiration. But the OE / tweaking discussion seems to come down to two camps.

Those that do vs. those that don't.

I honestly can't fathom why people who are against OE are so vehemently against it. Prior to the first death of AO with 12.6, me and my friends put so much time into trying to tweak that could have solved the SETI project. Maybe twice. If you look at the way the game was designed, barring exploits people later found and most of which I believe have been taken care of, you are encouraged to OE / tweak.

Lets see if I have all the ways here:

Implants
Self-Buffs
Others buffs (I differentiate because they did make buffs self and target)
treatment centers
tutoring kits
equipment buffs
specialty items (pillows, med-uniforms, etc.)
unique rare items (shades of lucubration, etc.)
high QL items

Although these categories are generic, there is a multitude of ways in each to buff oneself to OE / tweak. And since I am just new back to the game after my 12.6 sabbatical I may be wrong. But isn't PvP open game after 75? How is a level 75 character supposed to compete against a level 200 character if he hasn't at least taken the time to OE.

Now I used to think that Funcom was pretty slick for the way they designed things so that we COULD tweak as much as we like. But if they are now rethinking things, after beta, payed beta, and seven more months since 12.6, then I have to think there are a lot of empty parking spaces in their lot. Since they all must be riding the short bus.

Gunf00, Omni Trader of 40
Jakf00, Clan Trader of 66 pre 12.6

[_______________Garzu]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


If I can land both a deprive and a ransack on you with my level 72 trader (and he's not the highest trader nor other profession I have played), then I have to seriously question how you've made your character. Or question a bug with your character and nanoresist.

Anyone that's played a trader knows that landing a deprive on any target is easy. As Scumbug so helpfully posted, the Deprive line of nanos are hard to resist. Ransack line nanos on the other hand have a 190% resistability. They are very easy to resist, both for players and for mobs.

Trader mobs rarely go for both a Deprive/Divest and a Ransack/Plunder debuff combo. Most trader players won't waste the time going for both in a PvP fight (too much time wasted not plundering health to stay alive). So I question how much experience you really have against both nanos.

I'd question how the whole 'level 75 totally disables my NT' but anyone with a little intellect knows you're lying about that part. Seeing how the most a level 75 trader could debuff you with a combo ransack/deprive is -200. Even I can survive a -200 in skills from a trader and you have, what? 100 levels on me?

Question all you want, every single time it happens, never resisted, and if you talk to other ppl in the game, you will quickly realize im not the only one, its ALOT of complaining on this matter, most ppl dont post here...

The Traders debuffs is a bit hard to predict, I cannot have a shortcut bar for every different possible debuff combo the traders got, With MPs its much easier. When im debuffed with 200 points, im falling about 60 lvls down, my nano skills equals a lvl 110 NT (just about). Then, the trader got heals + roots. If getting low on healt, root, back up and heal. Or just fight and heal where they stand. That is a problem with the dmg nerf, you heal just as fast as I can nuke for dmg + you do more dmg with your gun.

Bah, stuff it, you fail to see that the trader has NO weaknesses at all.... no point arguing with you.

[_______________Garzu]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


Then you know nothing about shotguns. The shotguns have a large variation between min and max normal damage. And while they have a huge crit capacity, you really don't start landing crits until you go beyond the required skill on the shotgun. This is where the shotguns become overpowered in a trader's hands.

The majority of the people that overequip weapons no longer have the skills to deal crits regularly because the wrangle they got to equip the weapon has worn off. But if a trader can equip a shotgun with his base skills and then starts using ransack/deprive, his skill now jumps beyond the required skill and crits begin happening with more frequency. As I said, I barely have the skill (Shotgun of 427) to wield my current shotgun when using just a Shotgun Expertise buff. And it deals fairly normal damage under those conditions (between it's minimum of 6 and around 200 for targets with appropriate ac for their level). But if I land both a Deprive and Ransack Skills (Advanced), my shotgun skill jumps to 578. And I begin landing criticals for 1500 points rather easily.

Bla bla bla, why dont you get to the point? What do you want? Nerf the shotgun or what?

Originally posted by Kuroshio

Bugged or unbugged healing? With the bug in healing at the moment, our heals are fairly strong. However, unbugged, the amount of damage we TAKE makes our healing fairly tame. In reality Docs and Adventurers (debatable on the Advs) are better healers. Having played a high level adventurer, I think Adventurers are better healers than traders.

I have never said anything else but that docs are the best... or have I? In a team in pvm you traders got the 2nd best heals.

Originally posted by Kuroshio

Our roots break almost instantly if you sneeze hard at a rooted target. We do get an AE root line but there is a large span of levels between each new version.

To use your own words: Then you know nothing aobut roots. Your roots is no different from mine. THey break at the instant dmg is dealt. And who cares how long it is between them... do you know what root I use the most in pvp and pvm? Its hte lvl 1 root NTs start with in the backyard... Why do I do that, isnt it logical that a higher QL roots sticks better and can endure more hits without breaking? NO, it was like that earlier a patch or two ago, but now all roots break when dmg is done. Only difference is that higher QLs lasts longer as long as dmg is not dealt. My lvl 1 root lasts 15 secs, which is more than enough.

Originally posted by Kuroshio

Again, we have the best blanket debuffs. Duh! We have the only blanket debuffs. But an MP is a much more effective debuffer than we are. They can debuff nanos skills, debuff nano skills while dealing direct damage, and debuff combat init skills.

MPs more effective debuffs... jezus. THats a funny statement. Cause its a lie and donkey****. "MPs can debuff nano skills... " oh, who told you that? jezus. "They can also debuff while dealing direct dmg..." oh damn, that sucks, you can debuff too you know, while shooting with your shotty... I know nothing about any MPs combat init debuff. First, what is combat inits? 2nd, are you sure you are not talking aobut doctors init debuffs?

Originally posted by Kuroshio

Horse****...You care. You're almost fanatical about anything that can be used to un-'nerf' the NT profession. The fact is that you're not bothering to advocate fixing NTs and instead are choosing to get your fix by promoting removing your vulnerabilities to other preofessions. Of course with the short-sightedness that I've seen in your posts, if FC were to follow this 'strategy' of yours they'd

1. Reduce the effectiveness of the traders in team situations by removing the buffer nanoskills we use to transfer to the rest of the team and stay somewhat effective.
2. Have to redress the NT profession's balance when they do come around to fixing the NT problems because the profession would have only 1 real vulnerability left: the Metaphysicist.

Bla bla bla, I have said that FC stated taht NR worked as intended, and was not bugged even though the Psy ability didnt visually add to NR skill.

When they say htis, and think that its ok for lvl 75s to debuff lvl 170s without chance for resist, I gotto ask for some changes, and I didnt whine about this before I heard what was going to happen with the OE patch, which will greatly boost an already overpowreed profession: Trader.

INgame, ppl talk about this all the time, no balance, Traders got no natural enemies.

Originally posted by Kuroshio

Of course I seriously doubt you care about the first one, since the majority of your posts seem to take a decidedly SOLO slant to things. It's not like a trader mob will target the NT during team PvM. And in team PvP, the rest of your team should be slaughtering the trader while he's focused on one target.

Team vs one trader... LOL, thats what you call balance? You want to balance the trader vs 6 otehr profs? And the fact that you say Traders should be first target, is a clear sign they are overpowered.

Originally posted by Kuroshio

And for some strange reason, I suspect you'd love only having to worry about MPs

Since when was that a secret? LOL, as if im afraid to admit that... well, at least that goes for debuffs, I want to only worry about MPs debuffs... but that will not happen... docs got just as bad debuffs as MPs, they got init debuffs that can debuff with -1500 in all inits... which makes me cast QL 190 nukes as fast as a lvl -100 NT. (minus) - 100 lvl NT !!

NR needs a boost, but htat is totally unacceptable if ppl will start to chain resist my nukes. Or we need to remove the nano skill buff/debuff part from the traders.

[Loretta]

Originally posted by Kuroshio
Horse****...You care. You're almost fanatical about anything that can be used to un-'nerf' the NT profession. The fact is that you're not bothering to advocate fixing NTs and instead are choosing to get your fix by promoting removing your vulnerabilities to other preofessions. Of course with the short-sightedness that I've seen in your posts, if FC were to follow this 'strategy' of yours they'd

Hehehe, my sentiments exactly. I wonder what would have happened if Garzu was this vocal on the subject of improving NTs. Perhaps he would have succeeded, and I would actually consider starting one. As it is, my perception is that they are weak because of his constant complaints. Alas, Snarf seems to be doing quite well.

Oh well, I guess I will never know. I have a lot of friends who are NTs, and none of them have complained once about their profession...

[TenDeadMidgets]

"do you want missions to be profession specific"

YES YES YES YES YES YES

GOOD LORD IN HEAVEN

YES

[_________________Zuh]

I have finished a big thread were I exposed my ideas about OEing. These are not quick ideas that fall into my mind, I have very well think about them since Gaute wrote his article.



Discuss: 14.2 Player propositions about OE issue


I hope you will discuss it. This is a long thread but hang on .

[_______________Garzu]

OK, I have changed my tune. I know the NR skill is utterly useless, thats some of hte reason I get so damn frustrated when a lvl 75 trader lands a debuff with 190% chance of resist on me. Specially becuase I got NR maxed, its a green skill and I got ql 200 bright and faded implants and maxed psy ability.

I shall stop the nerf debuffs whines (yes I know, it went faaar to long).... the problem is that cosmic stated NR worked as intended and that the Psy skill didnt add to NR just was a visual bug, it really did add, just not visually.

And before someone such as Lucid come here and talks BS. I want to add that my deepest fear if the NR is boosted is that ppl will start chain resist my nukes.

So, I want a skill that is actually effective, without getting my nukes chainresisted (selfish anyone?)

I want a good chance to resist them, without buffs NT nanomages got the biggest chance of resist, due to green Psy and NR skill, but still I resist 1/1000. I cant believe its intended to be like that.

[____________Ejeckted]

Garzu,

then how about pushing for a line of self-only NT nano-resist buffs?

[Loretta]

Hey Garzu, but won't that be a double-edged sword?

If NR starts working, won't you have a bigger problem on your hand? Won't your attacks become resisted more often, thus leading to more gimpdom?

[_______________Garzu]

Originally posted by Scumbug
Garzu,

then how about pushing for a line of self-only NT nano-resist buffs?

Yes, been thinking about it.

[_______________Garzu]

Originally posted by Carrah
Hey Garzu, but won't that be a double-edged sword?

If NR starts working, won't you have a bigger problem on your hand? Won't your attacks become resisted more often, thus leading to more gimpdom?

Yes, it is, thats why I said if NR was boosted, my deepest fear is if my nukes will get chain resisted.

But I can't accept that NR is close to useless. I want to have a chance of resist debuffs that has 190% chance of resist. As it is now, I just dont resist very often. Today in 2HO, Auno init debuffed me at least 7-8 times, no resist. Then I went to battle royale, and was debuffed by Dociceman a couple of times, all in all it was at least 10 debuffs that was cast on me, and no resist at all. Just ask them if you doubt it.

So what Scumbug says is prolly the best idea, ill make a thread about it.

[Kuro]

Couple of notes:

1. The highest MP combat debuff is Wrath Abatement. It reduces damage inflicted by the target 37 points. But most importantly it reduces the Ranged, Melee, and Physical initiatives by -261. There's a whole line of these nanos the MP's have and can use prolly around level 10 or so.
2. When a trader uses a nano of either the Deprive or Ransack line, our attack bar halts immediately. At the finish of the execution, it then zeros out and has to refill regardless of where it stopped. It's not possible to skill debuff and attack. What most traders do is begin executing a skill debuff immediately after receiving a dmg message on the target.
3. I don't want shotguns nerfed as an item. I want the Shotgun skill nerfed for the trader profession. The amount of damage we can do with single skill shotguns like the Vektors is rediculous. The Flingshot required Krutts aren't any better. Given the buff portion of our Deprives and Ransacks, I feel shotguns (and pretty much every other weapon in the game, except pistols) are too powerful to have at such a low IP cost for the profession. Especially after the OE patch, as the trader profession will be able to maintain the skill required to wield high class weapons through our ransack/deprive line nanos.
4. In terms of NTs and nanoresist on their direct damage nanoformulas, I don't think any specific profession's direct damage nanos should be nullified by nanoresist. At most, resisting a direct damage nano should only reduce the damage by half. My honest opinion is that direct damage nanos shouldn't be resisted at all. Let AC reduce the damage as applicable, but an explosion in your face is still an explosion in your face. To me, there's no 'buildable' immunity to that

Edit
Sorry, point #1 got invalidated recently. I've been so used to either opening with a skill debuff or timing it immediately after a damage report, I hadn't noticed till I screwed up ransacking a mob earlier today

[______________Squick]

Howdy... I have not read the whole 29 pages here... But my idea for "fixing" NR without gimping NTs would be to make the "attack skill" 200% of mater creation for nukes... This would make NT nukes twice as hard to resist in theory, while keeping other nanos like deprives at 100%...

My thinking of the "simple" way for Nano Resist to work is this...

If your NR = attack of the incoming nano program you have a 25% chance of stopping it.

So by default NTs have only a 13% chance of being blocked or so by an equal leveled opponent...

For that matter, you could leave the NT nukes at 100%, but give them a self-only line of nanos that decrease the chance of their nano being resisted...

Squick

[Beartwo]

Originally posted by Garzu


I say, make traders debuffs weapon only, same with their buffs, OR make the debuffs at least 200% resistable.

.... they always seemed like they had an undertone of sense somewhere in all the discontent.

This one doesnt make sense though.
If Traders are allowed to do full debuff/deprives against weapon users, we (weaponusers) will be totally defenseless (just like you).
Cut the debuffs (for everyone!!) in half whereas PVP is concerned, most soldiers would already then be overequipped by far and therefore doing a lot less dmg.

Should you be so unlucky as to get ransacked by a crit buffed trader he will then have an insane attack rating and drop you in 2-3 shots while you try to figure out where you saved last time.

I have stated this before, and I know you dont agree, but shotguns should either do half the crit damage they do now or be removed as a weapon choice for "support classes". Single skill weapons with insane crits will make any game unbalanced.

To all you traders who might feel offended by this, consider that you are not a combat class. Only through FC`s weird and unfathomable programming have you become the most feared combat profession.

I am not asking for all kinds of wonderful things for soldiers, when we did that they gave us a soldier only pistol....*lol*.

What I do ask is that Debuffs either get halved or shotguns get a profession req. I may just have a snowballs chance in h*ll if you only hit me for 750 per crit.

To Garzu,

Was fun seeing you in the Arena the other day. I do believe thats the first time I have seen "Remains of Garzu". Kinda funny since I usually see you with a crowd of other high lvl clanners (ie. Camelot, EFP, etc)..... and I end up as "remains..."

Good to see that you arent as invincible as you might appear when we meet you out in the fields :P

[Neoncoyote]

Dear Funcom,

Now that the Traders are at the top of the wahhh-sniffle-cry Nerf them list, Do us all a big favor.

When you Nerf them (and I am pretty sure you will because you seem intent on destroying the game for PVP sake) ...

ONLY nerf them for PVP!

Use 2 sets of rules and STOP the nerfing madness over PVP!
1 for PVP Nerfs.
2 Leave them as they are for Missions!


Let us still enjoy Missions and let us fear traders in missions.

There is one trader nerf I strongly support and have mentioned it before. When a trader dies make his debuff end right then.

Please don't ruin this game anymore because of PVP, in your own poll it ranked less than 8% of what players cared about and trying to 'Balance' it is destroying the rest of the game.

-Koyote

Played since day 1, all classes Pre and Post Nerf... and very Tired of the Nerf wars.