Wait, a while back you said this:Originally posted by Garzu
Pay that price... I will no longer be able to get nano buffed from the trader... isnt htat a price to pay for me?
Well, according to your previous post, you are not paying any price... Where is the sacrifice?
And it does NOT make any difference AT ALL if a trader buffs my nano skills... I cannot cast any better nukes anyway... except of course Last Joke and Kels, but they are not better, they only got higher reqs, and are useless.
I suspect the OE patch will be problematic, and I suspect they will end up having to tweak the numbers... but...
I think there is value to the concept. Given how atrocious the game was last summer and how much better it is now, I'm willing to cut them some slack and give them the benefit of the doubt. I know how hard it is to do the kind of balancing they are attempting, and I'll do my best to support them as long as they are heading in the right direction.
I think Lilith pretty much hit the nail on the head, so I'll just leave it at that.
Garzu,
Besides completely making your posts seem farcical, one sided, and logicly incorrect, you still have a point, granted hidden deep within personal biases, and ignorant hostilities.
People, in my opinion, are thinking to near sighted about the OE patch, and YES YOUR PET WILL COMPLETE A FIGHT. i'll agree that OE'ing isn't for everyone, and it takes a lot of time and skill [(if you don't cookie cutter yourself in doing so) a few web pages will show you all you need to know] I personaly OE to an extent but all within my own abilities.. yes it took quite a few stepping of implants to get, and as-loads of cash, but i did it at a good while ago 20th level or so, and kept it up, no help in cash or friends .. AND you will still be able to do that.. but the debuffs is a major issue. but to that in a sec.. I do agree that OE'ing is a good part of what makes a character, If you didn't take use of some of the exploits to do it, that is just cheating, but mainly its the INSANE OE'ing that this will mainly hurt, which i don't care, i'm not running around with a ql200 gun or anything, but then at the mid/upper mid levels there is a certain amount of OE'ing that is good.. Some solo play is nice. and being at least able to kill that yellow con mob does help.. besides there is that colour thing, a red mob is SUPPOSED to be hard, if it kills you.. it was meant to! but make sure that it won't be affecting too strongly the solo player on a reasonable lvel per level basis. (guess we have to wait for it on Test to find out)
Debuffing: Ok, here is where i have the main issue. Trader, MP, whatever makes no diff on the class. Lets take a weapon (mausser) say you are Lvl100 and by belief a ql 100 item is at 'your level' your SMG skill is 500 (+/- a few) with ql 100 implants (+/- a few also) comes to approx. 630 smg skill.. the ql 100 smg is only 407 for Mausser, but at 630 you can easily fit a ql 140 (570 skill 428 burst (which should be about 500 w/ implants)) and you might be able to squeeze into a ql 160 with just minor supressor and expertise (651smg / 489 burst) now and this is not even being wrangled. granted it would require judicious use of skill pnts etc etc.. but albiet relatively possible (granted my num's may be off a tad, but they are more relative for sake of argument) now u squezze into that new fine tuned Mausser, and whola you are technically not OE'd right.. after all you can wear at least some of the implants normally (some maybe with a little luck or nano's) so lets go with ql160.. now you get ransacked for say even 105, (Ransack Advanced QL86) 657-105 = 552. well if you used that 160 u are at .848, or 16% OE'd. still in the clear. but for argument and you use a similar QL to level that'd be Plunder (weak) 657-125= .817.. 19% OE'd you are STILL ok! granted you are real close. but if those extra points they get from your royal hosing allows them to get off Divest Skills Minor 657-136=.8003 you have now hit 20%. so you take a 25% cut in dam (ql160 6-276 damage) - 25% = *4.5-207* .. well now you ahve a problem.. but look at the damage on that QL 140 we talked about a min ago. (6-244) hmm now.. wouldn't it have been wiser to maybe take the ql140... but lets see the QL 100 (5-178). BUT this example was using a QL based on Level of Nano NOT taking into accounts implants etc. This is more of a case on PvM. now PvP the Trader would have a good bit more in skill and might have been able to start with that deprive skill slapping you down into OE from the get go. And whats the Burst you got off soon as the trader attacked good for? that'd put a good number on the defensive right there. (deprive Advanced (-95 skill) and Ransack advanced (-105) = -200) That would put you into .702 or 30% OE, not enough for the -50% range. so you are at least ok there. and the (ql 140 (using ql 160 req's)) = .824 or only 18% OE'd which means YOUR NOT OE'D.
so whats all this mean.. too bad i've never been one to take the short story... All that time and money invested into the Implanst was a Waste of Time and Credits! you might think. well no.. you can start with a QL 140 doing a considerable bit more than the 100, and NOT be affected by Debuff's or go with 160 and face the consequences. but Either is STILL better than that QL 100!! hell even that (QL 140) - 25% = *4.5-183* and hell it'd take a much higher level creature player to stack the debuffs (granted if in my memory only th highest levels actually stack) so you are still in the clear using a much better weapon than your base level.. but now is it enough to kill the creature/player you are fighting??
This was justa numbers game.. and in turth unless you are UberOE you shouldn't have too much to worry about.. granted if all my facts were correct, and please post any info if i missed my nums.
Now Granted thats Just Weapons.. Nano's are a diff story entirely.. and can become unusable (which is Garzu's point and where i originally started) but after this article i'm too tired and ready to kill something... so someone can take it from here
Last edited by x_Frazzled_x; Mar 21st, 2002 at 23:27:32.
Ok...Originally posted by Kuroshio
This is also quoted from your words
Well, I have NEVER asked for a trader to buff my nano skills... maybe I have done it once, to upload a nano, but I prolly didnt ask for it to specifically upload, I did it when I was wrangled into a weapon.Originally posted by Kuroshio
Your evaluation of the nano's usefulness aside (cause traders argue about the usefulness of our charm nanos all the time), a trader buffing your nano skills makes no difference "AT ALL"? That's a lie.
To buff my nano skills is useless from trader, from an MP too, but at least I have had some use of the MP buffs.
Because the Traders buffs is so useless for nano skills (there is always an MP around that can to it with 8 points more and it lasts much longer), I say make their debuffs useless for nano skills.
Support class... you gotto team with some good traders someday... for example Jannerik, he outdmg ALL professions... Traders do the best dmg in the game. If you think shotguns need a nerf, well if they nerf it, it will hit all professions, just as bad.Originally posted by Kuroshio
Traders excel in solo pvp and pvm because the of the nature of the profession PLUS easy access to an overpowered weapon: single skill requirement shotguns like the Vektor line. In a team situation the debuffs are the 1st part of a 2 part process, which when completed we become a excellent SUPPORT class. We don't have the hp nor aggro enhancing abilities to tank well. And if we're buffing the team skills like the profession is supposed to do our damage drops and will drop even further after the OE patch. In straight blanket debuffs, the trader does have the best debuff in the game. Guess what: we have the ONLY blanket debuffs in the game. MPs have the ability to debuff inits, debuff nanoskills, and debuff nanoskills while causing damage (their dd nanos with added nanoskill debuff effects), which makes them arguably the better debuffers. So that's more of an exaggeration. Traders having the best roots is a straight lie.
I dont care how much you try to say "MPs got arguable better debuffs than traders". Do you know why? It is because in reality, how the game works, how it is when you fight the 2 different professions, IT IS MUCH WORSE TO GET DEBUFFED BY A TRADER THAN AN MP. And I am only talking about nano skills here... Now that Traders debuffs is going to get VERY effective vs ALL weapon skills too, and are already VERY effective vs ALL nano skills, it is going to be totally uber, disabeling pets, nanos AND weapons. That is totally uber.
Funny you say this, cause thats exactly how it is with traders debuffs... if it wasnt alllowable by the game mechanics, ppl would sceam "Exploit". After the OE patch, ppl will also scream "NERF".Originally posted by Kuroshio
In the original post this is exactly true. I didn't know stun was broken, got fixed, and got nerfed. Given your general attitude, I didn't care either. But I also warned when I asked you why it got nerfed that if you didn't tell the truth behind why it got nerfed, I'd go and find out on my own. Funny thing how a lot of the things you claimed were NT targetted nerfs, like the cap to everyone's range and changes to stun after it was fixed, were because of problems that if it wasn't allowable by the game mechanics people would have been screaming "Exploit".
It doesnt center around my profession... I have already learned to live with it, I run when I see a trader... But now, everybody got to run, pets (run already, root) weapon users, docs, NTs, MPs, crats, engs, MAs, advs, enfs, perhaps all except soldiers, yes even traders have to run if debuffed by someone of his own profession.Originally posted by Kuroshio
Your entire arguement for removing the nano debuff portion of the ransack/deprive line centers around the effects it has on your profession as a solo player. I'm arguing for leaving it alone and 'nerfing' the trader's offensive power because of the negative effects it will have on team gameplay. There are greater chances for trader players interacting beneficially with team members than the chances are of negatively encountering trader mobs in missions or trader players in solo PvP. Take out the nano portions of the debuffs and it halves our ability to enhance our team and remain an effective member of the team. I'm comparing the encounter rate of trader profession anything while playing solo (which basically amounts to a chance based on either the number of trader players, in case of PvP, or whatever criteria the spawn tables use to generate trader mobs) versus the benefits gained by choosing to group with a trader with their current abilities. To me the benefits to teamplay outweigh the negatives of a chance encounter with a trader solo. And that's based on simple math:
A trader using his current abilities for the benefit of the team benefits 5 other players along with the trader.
A chance encounter with a trader player or mob affects 1 person negatively at a time, the target.
I have answered on your speech about the benefits the trader gives to a team... They already do the best dmg in the game, got AE roots (best), 2nd best heals, not ok to also have the best debuffs.
I say, make traders debuffs weapon only, same with their buffs, OR make the debuffs at least 200% resistable.
Besides, your buffs vs nano skills is useless during the hunt, It is only useful when the team is buffing, for example getting UVC from an MA. You will still be able to buff weapon skills as much as u want... you can recast it every 3 min, with the same effect on your teams dmg with weapons, just no more nano buffing.
Last edited by Garzu; Mar 22nd, 2002 at 03:22:24.
NT phone HOME!!
Originally posted by Carrah
Wait, a while back you said this:
Well, according to your previous post, you are not paying any price... Where is the sacrifice?
The sacrifice? Its the removal of the opportunity to get the buff.
Make the debuffs vs nano skills just as useless as the bufffs vs nano skills.
NT phone HOME!!
Without having followed the discussion in every detail:
Removing the nano part from the traders debuffs seems an idea, one should discuss.
My support to whoever brought up this idea.
After doing some serious ammount of number analyzing I have to say: Traders are ridiculously overpowered: the only thing they cannot do is a pet, and that is the only thing. They are astonishingly cheap in IP costs and the debuffs are way to overpowered - two stacking lines of debuffs [/me shakes head]
But I am rather convinced, that Funcom will squeeze in a Trader/MP loving patch before the famous Adv loving patch because these two professions where hit far to hard by the OE countermeasures. How about a charming line for traders ...
[can you write sarcasm, Funcom].
So long,
Max(imilian)
100% curious
Re: Re: Re: Re: I dont like t scooby
The concept that the ability to solo red-conned mobs is only available to someone who overequips, is not only flawed but complete nonsense.Originally posted by Lilith
Err... if you want to make leveling take longer, it's easier to modify the xp gains, or the xp thresholds... on the other hand, leveling was too fast for some people : exploiters who gained level 75-140 in a week, and overequippers steamrolling the mobs of their own level, going after mobs that are red...
I play a nanomage MP who has not a single bit of overequipped armor or weapons and I use only pets which I am able to self-buff to cast. With the use of my pets I am able to solo mobs that are 40 levels above my character level, and I am often able to take on multiple opponents if I am lucky. In PvP, I die to greenies even when they are underequipped. Root the pets, gank the player. Do I *****? Nope, nor do I PvP when I have a choice.
I am 110% against this patch even though I will be for the most part unaffected by it, at least until I am debuffed. This is a startling difference from the average poster who says, "I won't be affected, I'm all for it." I see the patch as what it truly is; the begining of a long series of nerfs aimed at making character advancement an even more tedious task.
Wow. IPR? Absolute crap. The trouble I have to go through to equip my implants isn't worth the benefit of freeing up 100K IP. But I understand why the equipment needs to be removed... It would have been more difficult to program a few lines of code to determine base stats as opposed to modified stats; and a ploy to get exploiters to remove equipment that they should not be using.
Has anyone calculated the number of bugs that plague the game? Each patch introduces new bugs and exploits into the game, why doesn't anyone else want a game that works? Fix inventory bugs by saving a character in the database after every trade, fix the trading of nodrops by REMOVING the concept of nodrops. Fix those annoying nanoformula bugs... The list goes on FOREVER. Once game-play bugs are fixed, then tackle gamebalance.
That should be adressed before this IPR and OE scheme.
AO is so bug ridden that imho this is what should be adressed
foremost.
How about doing an effort to make the servers stable,
to the point where you dont have to run for cover if
there is an event running.
When it comes to designflaws and bugs theese are all over
the place and wont take it upon myself to compile a list of
thoose as I am certain FC have a good idea themself.
It is about time AO comes out of beta stage.
*my 2 cents*
-=Vima - lvl211 Bureaucrat=-
**After all these years I still vividly remember the warm, Fuzzy feeling I got first time I ran into a room packed With lvl200 mobs and threw my AoE calm**
3-4 people all arguing with each other about the same thing over and over about 40 different posts. Hey, can we focus on the topic at hand? OE patch?!
This game is so bug ridden and screwed up, they need to focus on fixing the problems they have before introducing new ones. When was the last time you or a friend of yours had items just disappear from your inventory or bank, or maybe never show up at the reclaim? When was the last time you or a friend or org mate died zoning for no reason? When was the last time you got hit by a mob 2-5 times after it was dead? Have you ever been killed and yet there you stand as if you didn't with 1 hp and all your items missing because they are at the reclaim? Who here has seen the people "speed walking" after they get out of their vehicle? The bugs and problem list can go on and on and these few are just what I notice on an EVERYDAY basis. Yes, EVERY DAY I see nearly every one of the bugs and problems happen. And yes, I have done the bug report or the person it happens to does the bug report almost every time.
My *personal opinion* is that this OE patch is at the current time and state of this game, NOT A PRIORITY. Bugs, content, stability, exploits, and even class "balancing and loving" should all come first before they try to change the game mechanics again. Maybe after things are fixed, balanced a bit more and working properly, then this shubject should come back to the table, but why now, when the current problems are already bad enough?
Freshman Malcom "Raysight" Age
Deep Winter Faction
OE, bugs and content
-> Raysight: fair point.
My personal opinion on this is, that developing the high level content was planned to be part of the life cycle of AO. Now, as approximately 2/3 of the players have hit level 100+, there is not enough time to develop decent content fast enough. OE is one of the major factors in fast leveling (I expect a decent powerplayer to go from one to 100 within one week), therefore, by slowing down the leveling process, it might keep people longer in game - more money for Funcom. But that is just my personal opinion.
Btw., bug fishing is very time intensive (programming myself).
Some statistics:
Rankings after 549 posts: (top 11; 10 or more posts)
About 220 different peoplehave posted.Code:Kuroshio 29 Sarelron 22 Asmodan 20 Koyote 19 Lilith 16 Garzu 12 Bionitrous 11 Crin 11 Lord Cyrik 11 Painsmaiden 10 Zuh 10
So long,
Max(imilian)
100% curious
liar.Originally posted by Maximilian
After doing some serious ammount of number analyzing I have to say: Traders are ridiculously overpowered: the only thing they cannot do is a pet, and that is the only thing. They are astonishingly cheap in IP costs and the debuffs are way to overpowered - two stacking lines of debuffs [/me shakes head]
cheap IP? traders have no green skills except tradeskills.
all nanoskills are blue. all weapon skill are blue except shotgun,
which is aqua.
this means traders can only raise skills 3 or 4 pts per level
when everyone else is raising thier main skills 5pts.
it adds up. (debuffs are the only way to compensate)
trader heals, if not bugged are only really useful
for healing others before the new PvP rules that bugged them.
i assume funcom will fix this eventually.
no trader uses the charm line, because it was so poorly
implemented that they turn you into a statue for 15min
(cant cast or shoot or sit or move) even if the pet dies.
FC is nerfing OEing so they will no longer be damage dealers.
debuffs will just get thier ATK up to where everyone elses is.
skill-drains are really all they've got
(once FC fixes heals and nerfs OE)
yeah. they're annoying. deal with it.
tststs
Scumy, stay cool, what ever you will argue, I (most probabely) wont change this point of view. Ahh, you didn't argue, you just called names - well I will argue.
Side note: Trader NPCs are the only one that I do fear (NT's with to high nukes as well, but they are easier). A medium gifted player with this power must be devastating.
Ok, lets talk about your 'points'.
Well, what do you expect me to answer ... . Read and argue, or let it be!Originally posted by Scumbug
liar.
Colours are relativ, numbers are absolute. Let's bring it down to the numbers:cheap IP? traders have no green skills except tradeskills.
all nanoskills are blue. all weapon skill are blue except shotgun,
which is aqua.
Traders have an overall skill score of 745 (all initial skill costs added), that places them at rank 6. That on itself doesn't say to much. So let's look a bit more in detail.Code:Adv 597 Fixer 682 Soldier 683 Agent 695 Enf 725 Trader 745 MA 759 Doctor 827 Engi 852 NT 893 MP 896 Bureau 925
Blue nano skills:
The Adv, which is, eh was, considered to be the allrounder needs to pay more in Nano skills. I have to raise minimum 4, but more 5 skills to use the potential of my nanos, Traders as well? (couldn't check all details) - I don't have a single debuff, btw.Code:Nano/Aid Adv Trader MatMet 9 8 MioMet 8 9 PsyMod 9 8 MatCrea 9 8 T&S 9 8 SensImp 8 9 FAid 6 8 Treat 5 8 Subtotal 63 65
You only have one aqua weapon skill. You have my condolence. Correct would be: Traders have the 'cheapest' skill cost (7.5) for shotgun together with the soldiers (big imbalance, in my eyes). All other profession have to pay more in that skill, even Fixers! Half of the profession pays 16 or more.
Wouldn't be that bad, if not shotguns were among the most powerful weapons in the game. One most cost efficient weapons is the Vektor, one skill, hugh crit, decent speed. I recently made a shotgun analysis (my secondary is an Engi, even the 16 point shotgun skill is more effective than my 7.5 Pistol skill. An even more dangerous weapon (PvP), the Krutt line - among the best crit in game (didn't analyze assault rifles). Needs Shotgun and Fling. Skill cost for traders: 13 (5th best). Realtively cheap compared to all others. Shotguns are among the most well designed wepaons within the game concerning skill cost versus damage output (not the traders fault) - and Traders pay the least for it!
Another effect: Due to the fact, that you need to implant online one skill (maybe two) a lot of important slots are free for Nano skills.
It is four as 'everybody' can as well. I explained it already, there is nobody that can raise shotgun 5 points per level. Ok, my Pistol skill is green -> 5 points. 5 points instead of 4, boahhh. Makes a total of about 150 points more at level 200 (title caps!). Impressive - fear my Pistols, I have two of them - ha!this means traders can only raise skills 3 or 4 pts per level
when everyone else is raising thier main skills 5pts.
it adds up. (debuffs are the only way to compensate)
Ok, soldiers (Enfs), may get an increase of 5 points in atck rating per level - but, soldiers are to be supposed to be war machines. Why on Rubi-Ka should a trader compare himself to a highly specialized war machine? You are supposed to sell and build stuff, not to fight in the first line.
Debuffs:
You have two stacking lines, that affect all combat relevant skills PLUS nano skills (utter crap, if you ask me). You are not only able to reduce your opponent, the same time you increase yourself - double cheese with onions. I once got debuffed by trader NPC for 250+ points. I had NEGATIVE nano skills at that time point and my damage output was negelectable. You can shut down all nano skills of your opponent with two nanos. Well he could use nanos 50 levels below, maybe, but it isn't directly the same level.
Damage output:
Traders are a selfbuffing profession (132 max, wasn't it). That adds to the general buffs, makes more than 150 points. Even at high levels this make a hugh difference, 30+ ql to what I can equip on my own. Get used to cast the nano repeatedly.
NCU is not the problem for you, was +120 Comp Lit, your highest buff? Comp Lit is 7.5 for traders (rank 5), so even here, cheap.
Trade skills are cheaper than for Engis (total), so you can built your own implants and wield scopes really easy.
Your heals are not bad at all!
You have roots! (Adv have non)
So taken all together, trader are completly autarkic, with the ability to shut down all caster classes before they even launched their first attack. Pet classes were and will be meaningless to you, traders even don't have to root the pet any longer, just debuff the owner - grin at the pet and send the owner back to reclaim. The only problem still might be alpha striking soldiers, but I guess you live with that.
Feel free to discuss.
So long,
Max(imilian)
P.S. You have DD nanos as well, almost forgot.
P.P.S. I want a TRAMP-killer pistol!
100% curious
Originally posted by Heart of Evil
The concept that the ability to solo red-conned mobs is only available to someone who overequips, is not only flawed but complete nonsense.
I play a nanomage MP who has not a single bit of overequipped armor or weapons and I use only pets which I am able to self-buff to cast. With the use of my pets I am able to solo mobs that are 40 levels above my character level, and I am often able to take on multiple opponents if I am lucky. In PvP, I die to greenies even when they are underequipped. Root the pets, gank the player. Do I *****? Nope, nor do I PvP when I have a choice.
I am 110% against this patch even though I will be for the most part unaffected by it, at least until I am debuffed. This is a startling difference from the average poster who says, "I won't be affected, I'm all for it." I see the patch as what it truly is; the begining of a long series of nerfs aimed at making character advancement an even more tedious task.
Wow. IPR? Absolute crap. The trouble I have to go through to equip my implants isn't worth the benefit of freeing up 100K IP. But I understand why the equipment needs to be removed... It would have been more difficult to program a few lines of code to determine base stats as opposed to modified stats; and a ploy to get exploiters to remove equipment that they should not be using.
Has anyone calculated the number of bugs that plague the game? Each patch introduces new bugs and exploits into the game, why doesn't anyone else want a game that works? Fix inventory bugs by saving a character in the database after every trade, fix the trading of nodrops by REMOVING the concept of nodrops. Fix those annoying nanoformula bugs... The list goes on FOREVER. Once game-play bugs are fixed, then tackle gamebalance.Check my own quote... I think too that debuffs should not trigger the OE code. But OE has been over abused. So yes I would prefer losing control of my pet if I am debuffed, it doesnt make it that much different than a rooted pet. And if the patch goes live and the game's out of whack because ot the debuff/OEtrigger, it will be on a patch planning soon enough.Originally posted by Lilith on page 23
Debuffs bringing you down to the level of OE, when you are not OEing in the first place. So you take a triple penalty:
- You are not OEing, thus you use borderline outdated gear.
- You get debuffed, your skills drop drastically.
- You are now under OE rules. So you get a second 'debuff' for being overequipped.
This goes beyond the initial design of the game. That OE wasnt intended to go that far was one problem. But debuffing should not trigger OE penalty. General debuffs will not be more useful, they will only negate the generic buffs; 20 points might be powerful for a level 1, but at level 100, its a joke. Real debuffs past 50 start hurting everyone as soon as they trigger the OE code.
Other than this, I am all for the OE patch. It was needed.
Date of registration 2001-06-27 13:46:17 UTC
Account status Open
But you just said that you don't need the buffs in the first place. Thus you don't care either way.Originally posted by Garzu
The sacrifice? Its the removal of the opportunity to get the buff.
Make the debuffs vs nano skills just as useless as the bufffs vs nano skills.
So I guess my point is that once again you are asking to nerf everyone else but yourself. Which proves to me that those who are accusing you of being selfish are right.
Originally posted by Carrah
But you just said that you don't need the buffs in the first place. Thus you don't care either way.
So I guess my point is that once again you are asking to nerf everyone else but yourself. Which proves to me that those who are accusing you of being selfish are right.
lol, this is funny... such a defensive nature you got there Carrah. Traders debuffs will be uber after the OE nerf, If it stays as it does now, I will not complain, its a big annoyance to get debuffed by traders now, but after the OE nerf, it will be totally crippling to ALL professions...
Well, if you want boosts... what do you say if NTs got a great boost in their nano resist? We are the masters of nano tech you know. It should be damn hard to land a debuff on us, and I have NEVER resisted a debuff from a trader, not even a lvl 75 one.... Something is wrong, and needs to be looked at, dont care what they do, only thing I care about is to make the debuffs a little less powerful than they currently are, and will be.
NT phone HOME!!
I dont understand all the stuff about pet classes and NT's and MA's etc.. Now all of you might find out what its like what soldiers have been going through for awhile now. We have the nova..without a crit buff we miss alot times..hit for 1 many times and then reload kicks in...mostly dead by this time. We have no nano's..taunts dont work..etc I can go on and on but its all been said before. People are complaining that they wont be able to do 50% missions, HUH?? I am very happy when I can finish a 30% mission without dieing once. Everyone stop this complaining and whining..whatever you want to call it and just play the game, If it causes you this much grief I seriously think people need to find something else to do. Enjoy the game and its changes..It might be good.. it might be bad. But hey its a game. Please remember that. And it's your choice to stay or leave..remember that too!!!
Zurich, LVL154 Soldier CAS
Happy PLAYING the game since July 9th,2001
I'm pretty sure I posted earlier in the thread the numbers of what would happen if I got hit by an equal level trader with both ransack/deprive with my current shotgun.Originally posted by Garzu
lol, this is funny... such a defensive nature you got there Carrah. Traders debuffs will be uber after the OE nerf, If it stays as it does now, I will not complain, its a big annoyance to get debuffed by traders now, but after the OE nerf, it will be totally crippling to ALL professions...
Well, if you want boosts... what do you say if NTs got a great boost in their nano resist? We are the masters of nano tech you know. It should be damn hard to land a debuff on us, and I have NEVER resisted a debuff from a trader, not even a lvl 75 one.... Something is wrong, and needs to be looked at, dont care what they do, only thing I care about is to make the debuffs a little less powerful than they currently are, and will be.
With just a Shotgun Expertise NF running (needed to wield the shotgun), it would give me a 25% reduction in weapon damage. If the trader laddered up to another deprive, then it could cause a 50% reduction. But in order to do that, the trader would have to focus on executing ransack/deprive nanos for a total of around 28 seconds (3.5 second execution time apiece with a 6 sec recharge).
How bout we just end all this now? You quit exaggerating crap and pulling the Chicken Little act till the OE patch actually hits the Test servers and people can see the real effects.
Not sure hwat you talk about when you say 28 secs for a stackiing of debuffs... You say 3.5 sec execution, which means instacast, and 6 sec recharge, which with your shotgun you hit for dmg (its not like you cant shoot with it when you recharge your nanos). If both got same execution and recharge, the total time will be 12 secs. 50% reduction is damn much, and that is only for weapons... include the nano skills and the disableing of pets, its uber.Originally posted by Kuroshio
I'm pretty sure I posted earlier in the thread the numbers of what would happen if I got hit by an equal level trader with both ransack/deprive with my current shotgun.
With just a Shotgun Expertise NF running (needed to wield the shotgun), it would give me a 25% reduction in weapon damage. If the trader laddered up to another deprive, then it could cause a 50% reduction. But in order to do that, the trader would have to focus on executing ransack/deprive nanos for a total of around 28 seconds (3.5 second execution time apiece with a 6 sec recharge).
How bout we just end all this now? You quit exaggerating crap and pulling the Chicken Little act till the OE patch actually hits the Test servers and people can see the real effects.
NT phone HOME!!
This would be if I were fighting a mirror copy of myself: a level 72 solitus trader. The IP shortage prevents maxing nanoinit still so instacast isn't availible.Originally posted by Garzu
Not sure hwat you talk about when you say 28 secs for a stackiing of debuffs... You say 3.5 sec execution, which means instacast, and 6 sec recharge, which with your shotgun you hit for dmg (its not like you cant shoot with it when you recharge your nanos). If both got same execution and recharge, the total time will be 12 secs. 50% reduction is damn much, and that is only for weapons... include the nano skills and the disableing of pets, its uber.
Using the highest ransack availible to me without any buffs whatsoever + the next level deprive (availible only after that ransack is executed successfully), the amount of skill those 2 nanos would take off my maxed + implanted shotgun skill would only equal a 25% reduction in damage. To get 50%, my 'mirror' would have to use the prior successful ransack/deprive combo to 'ladder' into the next higher ransack. Which is the 3rd nanoexecution.
"Instacast"ing nanoformulas is not an immediate option, usually availible to the higher level players. So acting like every nano is instacast is a mild exaggeration. Forgetting to point out one of the major complaints of the NT, the ability to have those nanos blackholed/fumbled/resisted/interrupted, is a further exaggeration (though whether it's an exaggeration by omission or an exaggeration of the NT's complaints of the problem is unclear).
Someone else wrote they got ransacked/deprived for -400 putting them in negative nanoskills. Assuming I got hit by a trader with among the 3 strongest divest/plunders, I'd have negative nanoskills. Around -10 or so in my primary nanoskills, PsyMod and T&S. That's at level 72 and that would also be assuming that the trader that debuffed me somehow got around the level caps.
Too many people are spending too much time blowing a change they haven't even experienced way out of proportion. In reality, the pet owners are the people at risk the most with the semi "All or nothing" approach FC is stating towards using pets without having the required skills. Too many people are using the arguement that the amount of damage the trader can do combined with their debuff powers makes them "Uber" so FC should remove their profession's vulnerability to getting debuffed. Instead of reducing the real thing that makes the profession unbalanced: the trader profession's low cost and easy access to an overpowered weapon, shotguns like the Vektors. To me it's a cheap strategy to get a roadblock removed at the expense of the trader profession's ability to team effectively.
I've dealt with trader mobs and players before. Honestly, I hate MP's more with their attack init debuffs.
Traders need all 6 blue nanoskills.Originally posted by Maximilian
The Adv, which is, eh was, considered to be the allrounder needs to pay more in Nano skills. I have to raise minimum 4, but more 5 skills to use the potential of my nanos, Traders as well? (couldn't check all details) -
They are not a 'cheap IP' class.
That is why I called you a liar when you claim
to have studied needs and costs in detail.
It's not about total cost of all skills.
It's about cost of all necessary skills.
this bothers me too. I hate conformity.
You only have one aqua weapon skill. You have my condolence.
but the math, costs, and final caps mean
you will be a gimp if you choose anything else.
this is a silly line of arguement.
Correct would be: Traders have the 'cheapest' skill cost (7.5) for shotgun together with the soldiers (big imbalance, in my eyes).
All other profession have to pay more in that skill, even Fixers!
you dont compare all classes cost of shotgun.
you compare all classes cost of main skills for that class.
shotgun is to trader
as assault rifle is to soldier
as 2HB is to enforcer
as matter creation is to NTs
my point is still that while other classes get an ATK rating
based on 5pts per level, traders get one based on 4pts.
that is significant.
wrong again. most nanoskill clusters conflict with eachother.
Another effect: Due to the fact, that you need to implant online one skill (maybe two) a lot of important slots are free for Nano skills.
and most weapon skill clusters do not conflict with nano clusters.
this makes no difference at all.
i've done implant sets for every profession in the game.
(both assembled for myself and other people and designed
with nanonanny)
because funcom decided to make this game about nothing but fighting.
Why on Rubi-Ka should a trader compare himself to a highly specialized war machine? You are supposed to sell and build stuff, not to fight in the first line.
every class is a combat class. period. you cannot level any other way.
I started a trader for tradeskills. AO forced him into combat.
that said, most traders cannot solo a green mission at higher levels.
(especially if they have used IP in tradeskills)
mobs have uber duck evades so we dont crit on them like
we do on players in PvP (who rarely have decent duck evade skill).
Solo, we dont have an MA there giving us UVC.
it's a few PvPers that have given others a false impression of
the classes overall strength. but i know you wont believe that.
listen again. trader skill drains compensate for having a lower base.
Debuffs:
You have two stacking lines, that affect all combat relevant skills PLUS nano skills (utter crap, if you ask me). You are not only able to reduce your opponent, the same time you increase yourself -
if i have 400ATK while everyone around me has 500ATK
or 400nanoskills instead of 500
the debuff just makes me equal to other classes.
debuffs do not affect mob damage output.
they dont seem to affect anything at all.
in PvP, yes, if I get both lines of debuffs to stack,
I now have an advantage.
but if a 190% resist nano lands on you, you deserve it.
deprive/divest = 100% resist = easy to land
ransack/plunder = 190% resist = hard to land
<whining> "but nano-resist is broken!" </whining>
no. it's not. you just dont understand it.
I have PvPed against players who kept this skill maxed
and I almost never land the second line.
and during each attempt I am still being hit by the opponent.
realistically, you only get 2 or 3 attempts before you're dead
or so close to dead you'd better just root and run.
I have died without ever firing a shot becase I was being
stubborn trying to get plunder to land.
I have tried to educate players about how nanoresist works
in other threads and I dont feel like explaining it all again here.
too many players expect this to be a magic shut-out of any
hostile nanos. ignoring the AMSvsDMS factor and %resist modifier.
it's all about odds.
vs same level mobs the second line is resisted a lot.
if your team is fighting deep reds you will never land it.
vs mobs casting on you however, they will almost always succeed.
mobs cheat. they dont play by the same rules we do. blame FC.
nerfed with OE changes. just wait.
Damage output:
they are bugged. i keep repeating this and noone is paying attention.
Your heals are not bad at all!
ever since new PvP rule 50% damage reduction.
traders heals no longer damage them for as much
as they are supposed to
example:
Expert Health Haggler
The caster is drained of 225 points of health,
transferring 479 points to the target.
that is a 479 heal when cast on other people.
when you cast it on yourself, you are supposed to
first be hit for 225 damage then healed for 479.
that comes out to be a 254pt heal which is less
than mobs are hitting you for at that level.
before they were bugged, it was quite dangerous to
use these on yourself due to the fact that the damage
is inflicted first. i killed myself when i was too low on
health on several occasions.
but now they are bugged. the damage they do to you
is halved as if you were PvPing yourself. this should be
an easy fix but funcom has left it in the game for months.
so, using the example above,
you only get hit for 113 damage instead of 225.
making that a 366 self-heal instead of 254.
(which still doesnt compare to other classes self-heals)
understand now?
trader heals are basically 'give life' nanos.
that's the concept anyway.
and im sure one day theyll be fixed.
so do all low-HP ranged professions. (pet classes excluded)
You have roots! (Adv have non)
agents. nts. traders. see the pattern?
everyone forgets how little HP traders have.
btw- adventurers are likely getting roots or snares
(see previous article)
Last edited by Ejeckted; Mar 23rd, 2002 at 03:37:16.
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