Overequipping and the IP reset: A follow-up

[Neoncoyote]

Originally posted by Garzu


I dont agree, their debuffs will be effective vs weapons after the OE nerf, and they are already effective vs nano skills. = a big boost.

They are the ONLY profession with healing + roots = damn powerful combo. They cannot be gimped in pvp, even if we took away their debuffs completely.

I say it is more than enough with one nano debuffer : MPs, let the trader be the weapon debuffer, which will work after the OE nerf.

I doubt you have played a trader and I am glad all you care about is PVP and all, but it *would* in fact gimp the trader and make him another lame arse combat PVP class.

SOME of us enjoy other things. It's such a shame the game is getting gimped over PVP

*
They need 2 sets of rules. One where everyone is gimped for PVP and one where everyone can still have their strengths and weaknesses and fight PVM.

I really think this would solve a lot of problems. I prefer the old days when the game first started (minus the bugs) Where I knew if I took my Crat into a PVP zone I knew he was toast. I never expected to take on an agent who sniped me. The way it was meant to be. But that was *my* choice when I selected a Crat, or trader or Any other class. I weighed the differences, strengths and weaknesses and chose what mattered to me.

I am really tired though of all the PVP crying.
Wahh Gimp this, Wahh I cant Own PVP.
Get over it.

It was never meant to be balanced.
It's a shame funcom is listening to the small percentage of players (by their own polls) and ruining the game for others.

Maybe they need to do like other gaming systems do, have PVP servers with their own sets of rules. I really think it would be a good idea.

But Hay, I will just try another class till they Gimp that. I play one till the kill the enjoyment in the name of Balance, then move on to something different.

Despite it all there is still nothing else out there like it... and as long as I can find scraps of fun I will keep playing.
I think this is a great game... though I really fear it's doom from PVP gimp wars.

I just hope at one point they stop the Gimp wars.

For the record I like the patch, though it will make me retire my trader and go with my engineer. And no I am not worried about losing my Bot. It's a challenge that can be worked around.

It may take some brain power and some tactics but it adds a challenge.

*I do believe a trader debuff should end however as soon as the trader is dead.

Then when players get gimped in PVP they would all say 'GO Kill that friggin Trader!' Just so their stats would go back up.

THAT would put the fear of God in a trader on a PVP field

Of course you couldn't just tab and shoot... you might have to be tactical in PVP then... that's scary isn't it

Just for the record Traders worked wonderfully before all the gimp wars. It is the crying about wanting each class to Own PVP that has ruined so many classes and will in the end kill the Trader class... the most innovative class of this game. Trading skills was a brilliant concept! My Hats off to whatever Funcom member thought it up... and my condolences on it's impending gimp death... it is a sad one.


Anyhow I will shut up now.

-Koyote

Played since Day 1 and Played all classes Post and pre Nerf. (and will likely play them all again as the get nerfed one by one)

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...?threadid=2223

Less than 8% (7.3%) of those polled prioritize as important PVP
Even the Storyline ranks higher.

[____________Ejeckted]

Originally posted by Garzu


LOL, you are a funny guy.... where did I ever say I wanted instakills back

fortunately for you I cannot find the thread anymore.
a few months back you made a thread that was titled
"bring back instakills".

I want crits nerfed in pvp, yes, I do, so do many other ppl too.

including myself. but dont just say "nerf crits"
offer a solution. the most obvious being
-make MA crit-buffs self-only
-make MA crit buffs very short duration team-only
so every other profession in the game can't just
get a crit buff and own the politcal zone for the next hour.

the best solution is probably both of the above.
make existing MA crit buffs self-only.
but so MAs are still popular in teams, make another
line of crit buffs that have exactly the same reqs
and offer exactly the same bonus for teammates,
but make these 10-15min duration.
this makes it not worth seeking out an MA for UVC
before going off to PvP. basically, you dont get the
buffs unless you have an MA by your side.
(encourages team PvP)
also: make sure they don't stack with eachother!

Where were you when stun was nerfed??? Didnt see your support then.... You say dont nerf, just fix... they fixed stun and nerfed it 48 hours after, I ask again, where were you? Did you support the nerf, or were you againt it arguing "dont nerf the stuns, bring the other profs up and boost them so they can compete" ?

I supported stuns quite stongly before they went live.

check this thread:
http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...highlight=stun

the summary is that I tried to explain to all the chicken-littles
that 'stun' is not the same thing as 'mez' and that if they'd
ever been stunned by a brawl or melee weapon they would
see a single stun is no big deal. and that if stuns were too
powerful then the chance of landing one should be lessened
until a balance is found. but funcom screwed up here.
they didnt make these 'chance to stun' they made them
gauranteed-stun. then had to take them back again.
they way stun works with brawl is fine. not every hit,
but semi-frequently. the same should have been applied to nanos.
(as i assumed in the thread above)

[_______________Karax]

I'd just like to clear something up because I think some folks are misunderstanding the patch(or maybe I am, but I hope not).

Basically, if you can't honestly equip an item without the aid of other peoples abilities, you're overequiped.

As I understand it, this will not affect people with nutty QL implants at low levels. If you have genuinely raised a skill 100pts by level 20, more power to you.

If you have the buffs yourself, you simply need to keep them up in order to get the full effect of your uber weapon.

Things you can not do.

-pay some dude to cast mastery on you just to get a weapon equiped and then forget about it.

-have some trader cast wrangle on you just to get a weapon equiped and then forget about it.

Other than that the game will pretty much play how it does now.

EXCEPT

And I brought this up back on page 20 or so...

Debuffs just went anoying as hell to all-powerful.

[____________Ejeckted]

you forgot,
under these rules you can't use multiple implant sets either.

all my characters have 1 set for armor.
1 set for weapon equiping. 1 set for comp-lit/belts/ncu.
1 set for regular combat. and maybe 1 set for tradeskills too.

and needing to seek out 1,2,or3 other people for buffs
was a good thing, imo. it's a multi-player game afterall.

[_____________Vicktor]

Originally posted by Karax
Things you can not do.

-pay some dude to cast mastery on you just to get a weapon equiped and then forget about it.

-have some trader cast wrangle on you just to get a weapon equiped and then forget about it.

Not true. For instance, i have a lvl 60 trader capable of casting a wrangle of 65 points. At me level, my shot gun skill is around 300 with self buffs (excluding wrangles). And i assume that other professions can get the skill that high also, with implants and such. So, assuming they have the same skill as i do, and i wrangle them for 65, they will still make the 20% limit and will get full damage with the weapon. And you think people pay money for wrangles now...ROFL Just wait!

[Painsmaiden]

Originally posted by Vicktor

Not true. For instance, i have a lvl 60 trader capable of casting a wrangle of 65 points. At me level, my shot gun skill is around 300 with self buffs (excluding wrangles). And i assume that other professions can get the skill that high also, with implants and such. So, assuming they have the same skill as i do, and i wrangle them for 65, they will still make the 20% limit and will get full damage with the weapon. And you think people pay money for wrangles now...ROFL Just wait!

No one in their right mind is is going to pay you for your wrangle unless you are teamed with them and will cast it every 3 minutes. If they do then they are idiots who deserve to part with their credits. And beyond that I'm not paying any extra money to any team member except for a Doc, since he keeps me alive. If anything the Docs will be deserving of even more money since they are gonna have to work harder to keep everyone alive. Just my opinion, but I see the whole traders being rich trend going bye bye come 14.2.

[Painsmaiden]

Originally posted by Donzilla
WHY FUNCOM WHY?
In the article he metioned "since pets tank they'll take most of the debuffs" wrong I got this in an e-mail from funcom support where they stold me "you are the pets controller, you will draw more aggro's than your pets"

but if one guy says my pet should be drawing the aggros and anoughter guy says well you'll draw more aggro's it baffles me how they can call taking away our damage and armor edges over the mobs without lowering mob hp and ac? offal grubs should have 10 times the hp of a lvl 180 mob have you seen the size of those, I say the nano tech in my missions shouldn't have 4000 hp or more though ya know?
thankyou all

You are totally right here. I play an engineer in addition to verious other characters. From this experience I know that most of the time, unless you are in a different room AND out of the Line of Sight of the mob, you WILL get aggro. In most cases that means that those evil vindictive mobs will debuff you if they can. There is no seems to be no correlation between your actions and the mobs retaliations. Let me spell it out clearly. Pet aggro is jacked. Either the mob is mad at you for sending the pet or it is mad at the pet for beating on it, but not both. If I stand in the corner with my hands in my pockets, there is absolutely no reason for the mob to take an attack away from the pet to cast a nano or shoot at me. If I shot and critted or healed the pet then sure, I can see that happening. But if the pet owner does NOTHING, then the mob should ignore him.

Either the pets owner is at the top of the hate list or the pet is. Which is it? If it is truly supposed to be the pet, then fix the mob aggro code. If it's the owner, then you need to change the rules for pet from 100% shutdown to 20% debuff to match penalties to weapon users. Yes pet users use weapons too, but for the most part they only use weapons that grant boosts to pet casting nano skills. Half the time they aren't even loaded. If this patch is going ni you guys need to make damn sure that the balance you so desperately seek is actually being achieved. Screwing this up will only serve to alienate even more people than it already has by default.

Disclaimer: I am 100% against this patch, but I think that if it's going to go through I can at least try to be constructive and help iron out some of the glaring inconsistencies in the current plan.

[Neoncoyote]

Originally posted by Painsmaiden


You are totally right here. I play an engineer in addition to verious other characters. From this experience I know that most of the time, unless you are in a different room AND out of the Line of Sight of the mob, you WILL get aggro. In most cases that means that those evil vindictive mobs will debuff you if they can. There is no seems to be no correlation between your actions and the mobs retaliations. Let me spell it out clearly. Pet aggro is jacked. Either the mob is mad at you for sending the pet or it is mad at the pet for beating on it, but not both. If I stand in the corner with my hands in my pockets, there is absolutely no reason for the mob to take an attack away from the pet to cast a nano or shoot at me. If I shot and critted or healed the pet then sure, I can see that happening. But if the pet owner does NOTHING, then the mob should ignore him.

Either the pets owner is at the top of the hate list or the pet is. Which is it? If it is truly supposed to be the pet, then fix the mob aggro code. If it's the owner, then you need to change the rules for pet from 100% shutdown to 20% debuff to match penalties to weapon users. Yes pet users use weapons too, but for the most part they only use weapons that grant boosts to pet casting nano skills. Half the time they aren't even loaded. If this patch is going ni you guys need to make damn sure that the balance you so desperately seek is actually being achieved. Screwing this up will only serve to alienate even more people than it already has by default.

Disclaimer: I am 100% against this patch, but I think that if it's going to go through I can at least try to be constructive and help iron out some of the glaring inconsistencies in the current plan.

Well said.
It has been my Experience as well on the Subject of Arggo with my engineer, crat and Meta.

You make Perfect Sense.



I hope Funcom is listening to this good idea.

-Koyote

[Neoncoyote]

Originally posted by Scumbug


Garzu, you are a selfish person who only cares about yourself,
your own character, and your own profession. It's players like
you who have ruined this game. A persistant whining vocal minority
who encourage nerfing and half-ass solutions instead of real fixes.
I have read your posts for months and they are always the same.
You have at some point asked for damn near every single other
profession besides NTs be nerfed. You have asked for insta-kills
to be allowed back in the game. You are angry you can't use
range exploits or nuke from planes anymore. You are angry
you can't kill other players from out of view distance.
You are angry you dont have a 'kill everyone else instantly' button.

NTs have valid concerns and need many improvements,
but your only suggestion is to break everyone else in response.

NTs are not a solo PvP profession. Infact, it's very clear to me
that no profession was supposed to be a solo PvP profession.
AO was obviously designed for team PvP and all professions
have strengths and weaknesses. You however canot deal with
disadvantages. You insist on this rediculous definition of
'class balance' where every profession can duel every profession
and have an equal chance winning; except NTs who should win
every time of course.

I usually dont 'flame' the person, instead focusing on ideas,
but .. "Shut Up!" everyone is sick of you, including Funcom.
Stick to suggestions to improve NTs. but that's harder..
and requires creativity.. much easier just to cry nerf.

*smiles*

<- Thinks Scumbug may be his hero.

-Koyote


http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...?threadid=2223

Less than 8% (7.3%) of those polled prioritize as important, PVP
Even the Storyline ranks higher.

[_______Heart of Evil]

Originally posted by Drabin
In addition to these two notes, I still firmly believe that if MPs can debuff nanos, then the NTs should be the ones to buff nanos. I've said it too many times now but what the hell - one more time aint gonna hurt. MPs should not have the infuse with knowledge nor the mocham's line of nanos. NTs should have these and should have always had these as we are the true masters of nanobots.

I'll trade my lame mez pet, buffs and debuffs for your roots, snares, calms and nullity spheres. On second thought, keep Nullity... I don't have 200 million for a disc.

NTs have got to be the profession with the largest number of nano formulas and now you want even more?

Team with an MP, you can't have everything you want... Besides who says that MPs will still have those nice nano buffs post-14.2? Nerfcom will probably take them away from me.

[Intone]

Originally posted by hexxia
scenario: engi enters a PvP area.
trader ransacks engi.
pet cant respond
engi runs
trader roots engi.
trader risk vs engi: 0

Well, even now trader can root that engineer and his pet fairly easy. Also making engineer loose pet completely is quite easy with some creative zoning.

And with those planned rules that engineer pet still keeps fighting (if engineer succeeds to make it attack first) even when engineer is fully ransacked/deprived/plundered/divested until target trader is dead.

[Intone]

Originally posted by Karax
I'd just like to clear something up because I think some folks are misunderstanding the patch(or maybe I am, but I hope not).

Things you can not do.

-pay some dude to cast mastery on you just to get a weapon equiped and then forget about it.

-have some trader cast wrangle on you just to get a weapon equiped and then forget about it.

But if I understood that Gautes post correctly, this is not completely the deal here.

Let´s say your basic skill is 500 unbuffed and unimplanted and you are about to equip shotgun.

Add +100 from implants and you have base skill of 600 (not based on any real implants, but more like an estimation). According to new rules this is not overequiping yet.

With constant use of general +20 shottie buff your base skill will be 620 where we start to overequip in the first place. So, with the 20% rule you can equip shotgun with requirement of 744 without penalty...

744 - 620 = 124+ wrangle is needed at that point to equip the gun, right? So there is huge difference to that 500 base skill and you still can pretty much forget the gun and its requirements.

This doesnt completely kill overequiping IMO and this should still let traders be arrogant "132 for 500k unnegotiable" themselves

[Intone]

Originally posted by Lucid Flow


The problem is that at level 108, you need about 2.3m exp to level. A yellow mob at that level might give you 7-10k exp.

That means you have to kill 230 yellow conned mobs (max 10k exp each) in order to level once.

Do you know how much time that will take?

And it gets even better very rapidly

At level 116 you will be needing some 3.5m xp. That means 350 mobs. Things tend to get bit time consuming when trying to struggle alone.

[Sheffy]

Originally posted by Painsmaiden


You are totally right here. I play an engineer in addition to verious other characters. From this experience I know that most of the time, unless you are in a different room AND out of the Line of Sight of the mob, you WILL get aggro. In most cases that means that those evil vindictive mobs will debuff you if they can. There is no seems to be no correlation between your actions and the mobs retaliations. Let me spell it out clearly. Pet aggro is jacked. Either the mob is mad at you for sending the pet or it is mad at the pet for beating on it, but not both. If I stand in the corner with my hands in my pockets, there is absolutely no reason for the mob to take an attack away from the pet to cast a nano or shoot at me. If I shot and critted or healed the pet then sure, I can see that happening. But if the pet owner does NOTHING, then the mob should ignore him.

Either the pets owner is at the top of the hate list or the pet is. Which is it? If it is truly supposed to be the pet, then fix the mob aggro code. If it's the owner, then you need to change the rules for pet from 100% shutdown to 20% debuff to match penalties to weapon users. Yes pet users use weapons too, but for the most part they only use weapons that grant boosts to pet casting nano skills. Half the time they aren't even loaded. If this patch is going ni you guys need to make damn sure that the balance you so desperately seek is actually being achieved. Screwing this up will only serve to alienate even more people than it already has by default.

Disclaimer: I am 100% against this patch, but I think that if it's going to go through I can at least try to be constructive and help iron out some of the glaring inconsistencies in the current plan.

Very nice post. 100% in agreement.

When I heard about the 20% OE on weapons and armor, I expected right off the bat that Engi pets would follow the same suit -- buffs wear off, pet damage (and ACs?) decrease 20% just like weapons and armor. Pets are essentially the Engineer's weapon, and armor. When I got to the part of the original article when it stated the rules for pets, the only thing I could think was "... um, why?" Why the pet needs to stop working entirely is beyond me -- not exactly sure why Funcom chose this approach, but I feel Engineers would be 90% happier with this patch overall if they would simply commit the same rules for OE'ing weapons/armor to our pets when buffs wear off.

Heh. When a Soldier's buffs (to get his uber gun on) wear off, why does his gun not stop shooting entirely? Why does his armor not fall off and his ACs drop to 0 after he's finished fighting until he re-buffs to meet the 20% OE requirements again?

Why are Engineers (and pet classes) getting smacked with an extra "rule" that makes very little sense? Engineers are just as reliant, if not more-so, on our pets as Soldiers are on their armor/guns. *shakes his head*

Something to think about. Will these posts go un-read? I certainly hope not. It hurts to see so much more input and not one response from anybody at Funcom (in this thread), but my fingers and toes are crossed that Cz and/or Cosmik are still reading and taking ideas back to the developers. (Stick with us, guys, I know we have a lot to say )

--Tsk

[Beartwo]

Letting debuffs come into play in this equation makes about as much sense as giving a fish a bicycle.

How much leeway are you going to give the traders Gaute???
Do you perhaps play one?

Making the most powerful pvp profession completely impossible to fight is nutty.
All weaponwielders will be affected by the OE patch and I thought the initial post looked quite promising. 20% is a fair limit for both DD profs and petclasses. But as you state in your post, most of the time its the pet that recieves the attack, so against mobs petclasses should be fairly safe.

I am a 135 soldier, with a ql 200 Gamma. With Ranged energy mastery+ experience I am within limits of The OE reqs. Can you imagine what -400 to my skills would do if I went up against a NON COMBAT profession like a trader?????

You really need to rethink this..... I saw no arguments that made any sense for debuffs counting into the OE equation.

Thanks a h*** of a lot for making traders even more untouchable....and of course Nerfing everyone in the game in the process.

I really wish someone in there would start thinking about other profs soon.
Adv. need some loving bad
I hear agents screaming, but they can still do 10k AS
MA`s finally got some loving last patch
MP/Engi got some a while back but now you effectively locked them out of pvm against anyone with skill debuffs.
NT`s and Soldiers are struggling/will struggle badly (under lvl 150, wich btw is 3/4 of the game....), so you slap them with this and say....well you were supposed to be damage dealers, but we like the Traders so much we`ll just make them impossible to kill....and give them nasty shotguns to instakill you....since your armor and weapons will no longer make any damn difference.


Hmmm, this was my first "nasty" post to Funcom... and I really feel you deserve it. This patch was going to be a great one, but by letting this debuff thing in you have messed it up completely.

Why dont we all reroll as traders, since they can do everything everyone else does (almost) only far better.....

[Beartwo]

Originally posted by Stormbringer
I fought myself through the that monster discussion for at least half an hour, only to see that none of you has a real free mind here, If you like to pvp - than challenge someone that might offer a fair fight. So if you think Traders or whatever are to strong for you don't challenge him - or if they challenge you refuse. It is a RPG you can play your Character any way you want to.

......and you dont see anything wrong with a non combat profession being the most powerful profession in the game?

[______________Lilith]

Originally posted by Pete1010
My main character is a soldier. I used a soldier since AO started and for the first month it was good. We had mk shield that reflected back 75% but it was later nerfed to only reflect 75% away. This really made soldiers a lot worse. That was soldiers only really good nano. After that there were no other changes made to soldier. Now you are going to make it so we cannot have higher lvl weapons without a 25% reduction penalty. This is going to make soldiers very bad in combat. I want to know when soldiers are going to get something that will actually help them. I think that its about time for them to get somethign new that will help them out since they have not gotten anything the whole time AO has been out.

Remember taking on juggs? Mob hits you for x thousands damage, you return 75% of x thousands, ... you hit with your weapon for minimum damage... the shield did it all, and you still gained the xp if you were grouped with other soldiers and hunting near the reclaim. Eh. That was too good.

What is 'something good' ? The ability to 3 shot kill a red mob?

[______________Lilith]

Debuffs bringing you down to the level of OE, when you are not OEing in the first place. So you take a triple penalty:
- You are not OEing, thus you use borderline outdated gear.
- You get debuffed, your skills drop drastically.
- You are now under OE rules. So you get a second 'debuff' for being overequipped.

This goes beyond the initial design of the game. That OE wasnt intended to go that far was one problem. But debuffing should not trigger OE penalty. General debuffs will not be more useful, they will only negate the generic buffs; 20 points might be powerful for a level 1, but at level 100, its a joke. Real debuffs past 50 start hurting everyone as soon as they trigger the OE code.

Other than this, I am all for the OE patch. It was needed.

[______________Lilith]

Originally posted by FearDeath
JUST BECAUSE SOME PLAYERS IS STUPID AND CANNOT FIGURE OUT HOW TO MAKE HIM/HERSELF STRONGER DOES NOT MEAN THAT EVERYONE ELSE SHOULD BE NERFED.

How about this: if someone is able to SOLO a RED mob, he should not be nerfed, but the things that allow him to solo the red mob, SHOULD BE NERFED.

How does that sound? If you can SOLO RED, there is a problem. It has nothing to do with people too lazy to overequip, it has nothing to do with people who don't know how to overequip, it has to do with a basic concept in which a red mob should NOT be soloable.

Greens to yellow should be soloable. Yellows should be soloable with some risk, orange should still be soloable if you have very good gear and take risks, red should NOT be soloable no matter what gear you have. Red mobs are the reason to gather friends and make groups.

Sure it will make you less powerful; sure it will take you longer to level; sure it will be less fun if the only fun you have is to backflip each level.

About your argument, Funcom made mobs stronger to match overequipping players and give them a challenge. Now, the lazy/stupid/newbie are affected too, and much more than the uber/elite/veteran/overequipper. That's bad for the game.

They are not nerfing people for fun, they want their game to be a good game, and have a good reputation on the market. To gain new players each day... now if AO only has a reputation of playing grounds for immature kids who only love their powertrip... I doubt they'll get any new players. And I wouldn't have faith in people who prefer to skip contents as long as they are uber to renew their accounts when they reach level 200 too easily.

[____________Raysight]

FC employees must be on "holiday" again or just flat out ignoring the feedback once again as per usual since they don't seem to be in any rush to come back and give us answers or updates.

All in all this is typical of FunCom. Ever since this game went public this is their standard MO. Talk about something, give a little feedback in fourms, give people a warm fuzzy feeling that they care what the customers actually say...then do whatever the hell they had planned to do in the first place.

If you think that before this patch, anything you discuss or ask to be changed or explain would be a major problem will be changed...you are sadly mistaken. This conclusion can easily be drawn from the result of nearly every single patch that has gone live. No matter how many bug reports, problems, errors, exploits found and told about the patch before it goes live, it still gets put out regardless. True, some good has come from patches, but not nearly as much as the bad that gets emergency patched almost immediately.

If you've read the Blacksnow/FC crap that has been circulating you'd realize that all of these instant server downtime blackouts have been because of the mass exploiting that immediately takes place after a lot of these foul patches go through. And even if the exploits and errors/bugs get told to them repeatedly, the patch still makes its way to live...right on schedule, regardless of the problems that lie within.

What it comes down to is this - do you expect FC to care about what you say? As long as they get that "APPROVED" message from your credit card, they will just be as happy as can be and keep on rolling along without any cares for how you play their game or how you fare in it (as long as you don't get caught for mass exploiting like another certain company did, it seems).

So rant, complain, whine all you want - cuz when it gets right down to it, as long as the FC staff gets their paycheck, they don't care what you think.