Thread: Overequipping and the IP reset: A follow-up

  1. #381

    Unhappy The Voice of reason

    Originally posted by Ryuusuke
    fAccount status Open
    Next billing 2002-03-23


    Also, in response to some comments about class balancing, I do not think that the classes should be perfectly balanced. Before somebody is flaming me, let me explain myself... I think that it is perfectly ok in a massively multiplayer environment for one class to be able to beat another most of the time in PvP. However, this must be balanced by another class being able to beat the first one. So that all classes have strengths and weaknesses, but no one class completely overpowers everyone. So, hypothetically, say that we have an Enforcer who can endure the attacks of an Engineer robot and get close enough to attack and kill the engineer, and will win in most circumstances, if neither side has help. However, another class, say Nanotechnician, could easily root the Enforcer and kill her at long range. And a soldier would be able to hit the nanotechnician at long range even with the roots. I know that the game does not work this way, and I do not see such changes coming in the near future if at all, but I think that with enough thought "unbalanced" classes can be made to be fun.
    OMG!!! Intelligence!!!

    Yes this is what I have thought since Day 1 of this game. I have played every class and never had any problems with any of them pre nerfing.

    I actually prefered the softer classes... and then this silly Balance thing ruined everything and all because people cry because they want to rule PVP.

    Some classes are cannonfodder on PVP and should be. Well I dont know how it is now... one group cries and another group is nerfed, then another group cries and another class is ruined.

    I just hope Funcom quits at some point and let's the class wars be.. each with strengths and weaknesses... as it was ment to be.

    But we seem to be alone in this thought.....


    -Koyote

    http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...?threadid=2223

    Less than 8% (7.3%) of those polled prioritize as important PVP
    Even the Storyline ranks higher.
    Last edited by Koyote; Mar 19th, 2002 at 04:56:59.

  2. #382

    Thumbs down Re: Sraythe.....

    Originally posted by Halbundy
    Sraythe,

    Stop telling people what to find enjoyable in the game. Some enjoy leveling and some arent good at it and find other things to enjoy, like "roleplaying". To each his own.

    This patch takes away something from the people that enjoy leveling above all else, and gives nothing to those that 'roleplay' ...unless you call infringing on the enjoyment of the level oriented players as something good for roleplayers. Under the current circumstances, those that enjoy leveling can do so and those that 'roleplay' can enjoy that also.

    The glee with which the so-called 'roleplayers' view this upcoming nerf is just more proof to me that 'roleplayers' are largely composed of people that wish they could level but just plain suck at it. What else can explain the bitterness that they ( the 'roleplayers' ) have towards those that play for levels ? It seems to be jealousy, pure and simple, because what one person can solo, in a solo mission, has no bearing on the performance of another player in their mission.

    If you think that you shouldn't be able to kill two yellow mobs, then by all means limit your character's ability to do so. If I want to kill 3 red mobs in my missions and I'm capable of it, well that doesnt make you any better or worse so why do you care so much ? Why are you trying to enforce your view on me ?

    PvP ? Do what it takes if you wanna be good at it. The game mechanics that allow OE allow everyone to do it....if you know how and have the resources. If you don't, get them. Everyone started out with one lvl 1 character at some point.

    Stop worrying about what others are doing and work on your own character.

    Halbundy
    Here is something funny to think about.

    I am a 'So-Called Roleplayer.
    I LOVED the trader class.
    I picked it pre all the nerfs.

    I LOVED and I mean LOVED buffing for coin.

    Not really for the coin but I roleplayed it.
    I built up a list of clients,
    I treated them very good.
    I went on Site to wrangle...

    it was PURE enjoyment.

    And then the bleading hearts cried about not being able to Own PVP and the nerfs started.

    Now to make a long story short all this PVP crying destroyed the only real fun for me. Yeah a trader may rule in PVP but I couldn't give a rats Arse about PVP. But my Enjoyment of a trader Dies with this patch. So I will try another class again.

    So Please, when you jump up on your highhorse and say...
    'Stop worrying what others are doing and go about your business...' perhaps you could take your Blinders off as well. You dont live in a bubble, nore do I, nor does Sraythe.

    Everything effects everything else.

    The game was never meant to have all classes in balance and trying to balance it is destroying the game for anything OTHER than PVP.

    Of course that is just my Opinion, you need not agree with it.

    -Koyote
    Started playing on Day 1 and has Played Every Class

    http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...?threadid=2223

    Less than 8% (7.3%) of those polled prioritize as important PVP
    Even the Storyline ranks higher.
    Last edited by Koyote; Mar 19th, 2002 at 04:58:08.

  3. #383

    Question I may be alone on this ;-)

    Originally posted by Kazper
    Ok i've been skimming through a lot of these posts, skimming because most of them are too long, so i'll get to the point, this is a great idea, it should've been implemented WHEN THE GAME WAS RELEASED. Right now the majority of the playerbase, especially pet classes, depend upon the way the system is now. This patch will rip the rug out from under them. And ppl wonder why there is such a strong opposition to this patch.

    Basically if Funcom had taken the time to properly beta test the game...need i say more?
    I agree, this game really was launched in Beta form.
    I just hope they can take their hands off of nurfing and Balancing at somepoint and let the game system remain constant.

    I also have to admit I will be the first one to switch to my engineer after the patch. I Dont PVP but I like the challenge of my Pet shutting down when I am battling a trader in PVM combat.

    It should be interesting... but then again I have always hated when Mobs are to easy to Kill.

    Greens are the only thing that should be a 'Sure Thing'

    -Koyote

  4. #384

    Re: Re: You are way out...

    Originally posted by Painsmaiden


    Are you so blind that you don't even read to what people say. Now you are telling me that I support a group of players when I specifically told you that I didn't. If the semantics of the whole thing are getting you bent out of shape, then tough. You are trying to turn anything that I say or think into a disscussion of what YOU think I feel, when the things I say are totally contrary to that. The quote is most certainly NOT out of context. It came directly from a Funcom rep to a player. It wasn't meant to be seen by the masses, but then again most damning quotes aren't.
    Now mister painsmaiden:

    In your original post you most certainly did not distance yourself from blacksnow! I've not checked if you have edited that post to get that clearly across, but you most certainly should if thats your opinion and not just a statement to ease you way out of one of the lowest arguments I've seen in a long time...

    As to the quote of the ICQ logs, you do quote them out of context. The FC employee where given a task by FC to do just what your are quoting. You've painted yourself into a corner, and I'm NOT letting you out just because you like to call me names (and perhaps because of that?). As to from your FC to player? Adam KNEW this guy where duping, exploiting and had 50K stacks of items with identical ID's. There is at the moment 3 articles on this at www.unknownplayer.com, so I would really encourage you to actually read all the posts, including Adams version of the world...

    Originally posted by Painsmaiden
    fanboy
    Nope... You couldn't be further from my describing my personality...

    Originally posted by Painsmaiden
    You are taking my disdain for Funcom's plans and extending that to support for people that I specifically said that I oppose.
    Again, you did not say that in your original post... I could qoute your entire post, but I'll do with a link: http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...698#post354698

    Cant see any edit flag on that one, so perhaps you should consider adding that little disclaimer on your FC flaming?

    As to the rest of your post. The jump from the quoted text about ingame stuff, to your conclusion about my mental abilities are a bit extreme. From there to your less then mature views on democracy and press should realy cause concern among those you do your daily business... From there to use those imature statements and present them as mine is nothing less then outragous... I've never used terrorists or exploiters as a gain for my cause, never even been close to quote one for furthering of my cause... Read your original post, do some editing if you do feel a need to distance yourself from blacksnow... It will also take a lot away from the point you try to get across in that post...

    From now on there is an /ignore on you from my point of view, but I might break that silence if there I see something as idiotic as the latest post made by you!

  5. #385
    Nice to see that you at Funcom actualy read through our posts, even if you don´t seam to have taken any serious notice to what those posting constructive suggestions how to make it work.

    OE is something I look forward to being something in the past, but that require a balancing of MOBs that already with OE is a bit to tough. Health and nano capability of MOBs have to be looked over to balance things, and it would for once be nice if Funcom could do the balancing in one patch instead of forcing players to get a new low lvl character in wait for Funcom to fix playability of the game.

    As for Pets we pet users get aggroed a lot more then you think, and even if I do 1/4th the damage my pet do I´m aggroed by MOB at least 1/2 of the time and definitly as sone as I use an offencive (directly or indirectly) nano. Quite simple: If opponent is a trader I end upp with skill deprave/ransac.
    You obviously don´t play the game if you did not know this is the case, but that is how it is. I hope that you at least give us pet user a realy powerful aggro to our pets (I know engineer bots have an aggro already but MP don´t) and don´t make it a nano normal players never see since it can´t be bought in shops (I never understod why you fellows put nanos in game that we can only find maybe once in 100 mission since most player have lvled past the need of it by the time someone finds it and if it is sold those that have higher lvl character can outbid any newer players).

    As for adventurers: It is nice that you admit that we have problems and that we will get some loving, but you also say that we will not get back our IP lost during first month or so.
    What can I say but that I´m not realy impressed. Also there was no mention of how that loving was going to be. We nerfed through the floor pistol users sort of needed that loving month ago, and that silly low IP relocation don´t even alow us to get rid of our nerfed pistols anf get some useful weapons.

  6. #386
    If you think that you shouldn't be able to kill two yellow mobs, then by all means limit your character's ability to do so. If I want to kill 3 red mobs in my missions and I'm capable of it, well that doesnt make you any better or worse so why do you care so much ? Why are you trying to enforce your view on me ?
    Problem is that you are not supposed to kill 3 red mobs in a mission...

    Thats why the grey/green/yellow/red slider is there in the first place... Red is for "keep away"... I just wonder, when you are outside, how do you differ the various levels of red? Or are there any red creature out there that can actually kill you? Its really two ways for FC to fix this, either to lower the damage output of the players that actually can solo 3 reds (to take the extreme), or to increase the effectivenes of the MOBs... Now that would affect the person that are playing by the games intentions and not you and would leave the game truly broken

  7. #387
    *
    15. How exactly does the OE work?
    <snip>
    Just to explain the math here, 80% below requirements is the same as 20% over-equipped! I hope that is clear. We do not measure percentage above your skill.
    *

    Sorry but that's actually a bit of a lie. 80% of requirement does NOT equal 120% of skill.

    HOWEVER, the error is to the benefit of the player so provided you continue to check x% of requirement I wont complain

    Don't mind me, it's just inaccurate maths annoys me.


    As to the patch itself, as I've said elsewhere I'm an engineer and this patch isn't going to affect my play at all. So I may die in PvP, pffft who cares, I do anyway.


    Aurorae
    Neutral Engineer from Newland - RK1

  8. #388

    Yay, pain.

    Traders unbalance the game. Their abilites are ridiculous and it was a mistake implementing this character class.

    **Wrangles which hand people 20-30 levels worth of skill points.**

    Oops, better fix that. (Good stuff btw FC, but you've enhanced the other end of the problem, which is...)


    **Debuff's that effectively make a handful of other classes useless... **

    Well... if I were a trader I'd pretty giddy about this upcoming patch. Maybe I could even train my monkey to hit 3 buttons on the keyboard and own the political zones.

    I'm not big on PvP anyhow (although a lot of the player base *is*), but the trader is already caster-bane, now you're just throwing every other class into the grinder as well.

    Trader's actually wouldn't be so bad come the new patch if their debuff nano line were switched to something that hit monsters a bit harder, and players a lot less.

  9. #389

    Not that I really care any more but..

    But this game has multitude of different ways of OE, nearly all classes has some buffs, there are imps/weapons/clothing/misc items that gives you a skill increase.

    I would go so far as to say that the OE aspect is one of the major parts of this game, what is left when it goes?

    I migth be wrong, I even hope I am, but this spells death for AO, if FC dont realize this then there is NO helping them.

    There is one simple rule to all CS/PR or any marketing or customer satisfaction whatsoever, this is course A, in any such education, it has been applied for hundred of years by any company that has happy customers. And it is really quite easy:

    You do NOT give customers things they will use with satisfaction and get used to, just to take it away later.

    Nerfcom has taken this rule of thumb and grinded it into nothing, and they are now harvesting the results, desolate servers with a few not to happy ppl. Most of us has yet to see this implemented and we have no idea how it will affect us, and doing as Gaute say, "lets check how this works before we do anymore changes" is just plain stupid. We have all payed for beta5 of this game for a long time, when will it be over?

    Here is another rule for ya, just as easy and just as important:

    Do NOT cut in the good end when you can build in the bad end!
    Meaning, instead of nerfing down to accumulate players to lower lvl of game, increase the lvl of the game to adjust for the higher end players. (not as in high lvl)

    By doing this you eveolve the game at the same time as you make players happy AND balancing the game? how is that so hard to fathom?

    To let the 5% of griefers and gankers govern the complete evolution of this game is not only letting them win, it is a chicken **** lameass approach, and a lazy one at that. Because as I see it, the only reason this OE thing was ever brougth up was them mega twinked PvP.ers that ruined the game for so many "ingame" and now FC helps them ruin it in another way.

    So pls FC? make a 100% fluffybunneserver were the OE system is left alone, and a standard server were these rules are implemted and se were that takes you? Seing as most players cares nill for PvP in its current state, and will even more when ppl will IP reset their chars to be even MORE uber PvP ers then they ever was.

    Because we all know, that at lvl 130+ or so you have at least 300k IP spent on either RP skills, ie trade or buff skills, and a lot of misspent IP at that as well, rerouting them to a Pure PvP char will make you own even more. And at that lvl you can self equipp so no penalty to anything, welcome to uber mega gank world.

    I like the IP reset thingy though, but be prepared cause all hell is gonna brake loose, and you can take that to the bank, and seing as AO goes these days, its ALL you can take to the bank..

    Hehe, for a guy that is not caring I sure made this a long one but, AO has been my friend for almost a year now, (beta3), I migth be one of the few old schoolers left, but there is a limit to what even I can take

    Vaya con dios me padres, see you in another game sometime.
    And NO, you can not have my stuff..

    Borel
    Kanelgiffel
    Dworkin
    Out...

  10. #390

    Thumbs down !

    Well, I would have loved to read something in the latest article about the MP being able to buff +162 to nano skills while solo'ing to maintain dark-dark-dark-red pets all the time, compared to the other, and more pet-reliant professions, the Engi/Crat, who can only self-buff their nano skills +22 for an orange pet at best.

    Another valid question gets ignored. Not that I'm surprised?..

    I thank my lucky stars that my roommate is a lvl 72 MP and rising, hopefully to continue teaming with me to keep mochams on me all the time so we can be equally buffed with decently equal pets once he hits the appropriate level, hopefully before 14.2 comes out.

    At level 81, when I hit title cap with my Engi, I will be at 460 TS/MC w/ QL110 implants, self-buffing to 482. I've been using Feeble Warbot for a while (thank you mochams and all you nice MPs out there), but now, if my math is correct, for the next 19 levels, the best pet I will be able to use (20% above my buffed stats) will be 578 TS/MC, or just -barely- a Semi-Sentient Guardbot, not to mention I would need to get buffed to make it in the first place. 20 more levels. Hurray.

    So, to all you Engineers complaining about patch 14.2, you're all a bunch of whiners! All you need to do is make sure you're past level 100 by the time 14.2 comes out and always team with a MP with mochams gift nanos!

    And who said Engis aren't getting nerfed by this "patch" and are just whining for nothing? Oh yea, MPs.

    --Tsk

  11. #391

    Just 1 Point

    I haven't read any of the articles here so I might be repeating someone. Also, I don't know if this is being implemented. I think pet classes should be able to terminate their pet when they can't control him because of OE. If I got plundered and couldn't use my normal pet, it would suck to have to wait until the buff wore off before I could use my pet. If I can summon a worse pet that I could use, I should have that flexability. /pet terminate should be irrelevant for OE rules.

    Thanks for your time.
    Munchausen
    RK-2 Engie 150

  12. #392

    Thumbs down Untrue

    Originally posted by Chidoro


    It's not Funcom's fault you decided to play less socially in AO than you did in EQ. I've got a good number of buds playing the game and we play together all of the time. The Game gave the tools, you chose to ignore them.

    Can I have your stuff?
    Actually that's not *quite* true.
    There are four fundamental problems with AO that prevent socialism.

    1) Combat happens much faster. Quite often in EQ you would have more time to rescue strangers and make bonds. My Favorite thing about EQ was rushing in to save someone who was shouting /help

    2) Solo missions. It's a double edged sword. I love Soloing ... but so do a lot of people you will never see because they are always in missions where you will never meet them.

    3) They keep nerfing Buffs so there is even less need to interact.
    For example My trader may rule PVP but I hate PVP. At one time he was a social Giant because he role-played, wrangled and comp lit buffed his butt off ... but now...

    4) People level so fast and with all the nerfing, quite often dump characters faster than you can keep up with. I go away for a week and everyone I knew is 20 levels higher when I get back
    Or started a new char because they had enough nerfing with the old one.

    Sure you can make a hunting party and be social or even go to Baboons, but it *is* much harder I believe to be Social when the majority of the folks I would like to meet are in solo missions

    Don't get to bent out of shape by this post though there are real reasons that AO is not as social as EQ but some of the same reasons are what make AO fun too.

    That Ol' Double Edged sword.


    -Koyote
    Last edited by Koyote; Mar 18th, 2002 at 14:47:32.

  13. #393

    Thumbs up Re: Just 1 Point (And a good one)

    Originally posted by Munchausen
    I haven't read any of the articles here so I might be repeating someone. Also, I don't know if this is being implemented. I think pet classes should be able to terminate their pet when they can't control him because of OE. If I got plundered and couldn't use my normal pet, it would suck to have to wait until the buff wore off before I could use my pet. If I can summon a worse pet that I could use, I should have that flexability. /pet terminate should be irrelevant for OE rules.

    Thanks for your time.
    Munchausen
    RK-2 Engie 150
    That makes perfect sense.
    I agree 100%

    -Koyote

  14. #394

    Unhappy Re: Yay, pain.

    Originally posted by Karax
    Traders unbalance the game. Their abilites are ridiculous and it was a mistake implementing this character class.

    Trader's actually wouldn't be so bad come the new patch if their debuff nano line were switched to something that hit monsters a bit harder, and players a lot less.
    Actually Traders worked fine and were loved and adored before the Nerf wars which were brought on by each class crying they cant Own PVP.

    I should point out each class was not meant to Own PVP either.
    So now everyone cries about traders.

    Conceptually Traders were the most innovative class I have ever seen in any game anywhere... and slowly they will be destroyed here, all in the Name of Balance that should have never been.

    HOWEVER, You do make an excellent point.
    What is needed in this game is 2 sets of rules.
    One for PVP and one for PVM.



    -Koyote

    Started on Day 1 and played every Class since then. Both Pre and Post Nerf.

    http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...?threadid=2223

    Less than 8% (7.3%) of those polled prioritize as important PVP
    Even the Storyline ranks higher.
    Last edited by Koyote; Mar 19th, 2002 at 05:00:23.

  15. #395

    Wink Re: Not that I really care any more but..

    Originally posted by FuryFerret

    To let the 5% of griefers and gankers govern the complete evolution of this game is not only letting them win, it is a chicken **** lameass approach, and a lazy one at that. Because as I see it, the only reason this OE thing was ever brougth up was them mega twinked PvP.ers that ruined the game for so many "ingame" and now FC helps them ruin it in another way.

    So pls FC? make a 100% fluffybunneserver were the OE system is left alone, and a standard server were these rules are implemted and se were that takes you? Seing as most players cares nill for PvP in its current state, and will even more when ppl will IP reset their chars to be even MORE uber PvP ers then they ever was.

    Hehe, for a guy that is not caring I sure made this a long one but, AO has been my friend for almost a year now, (beta3), I migth be one of the few old schoolers left, but there is a limit to what even I can take

    Vaya con dios me padres, see you in another game sometime.
    And NO, you can not have my stuff..

    Borel
    Kanelgiffel
    Dworkin
    Out...
    My Thoughts Exactly.
    PVP Balance is destroying the game.

    Even in the Polls Funcom did, PVP ranked at the bottom of what users cared about. I would love to see a Nerf Server and one that was Old School before all the Balancing. You know.. When I started, I never expected my Bureaucrat to be able to take on an Agent. If I died in one Shot, I would have excepted it because I chose a class that was never meant to Own PVP.

    I could never figure out why people couldn't grasp that concept.

    However I am still hopeful the Game will turn around.
    There is really nothing else like it.

    -Koyote

    http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...?threadid=2223

    Less than 8% (7.3%) of those polled prioritize as important PVP
    Even the Storyline ranks higher.
    Last edited by Koyote; Mar 19th, 2002 at 05:02:01.

  16. #396

    So FC?

    Can we have an official statement on why you let a real small minority of the game destroy it for all the others?

    Because I can not see any problem with the OE system as it is now when it comes to PvM, unless you plan to make PvM just as much harder as PvP will be for the former twinkers, in which case you better prepare for... Dang, why am I even telling you this? It is as is I thought you would even listen, man I must have grown old and naive, sorry folks..

  17. #397

    Thumbs down So funny

    18. Will all the Trader wrangles become useless?

    NO. You will just have to keep them going...



    It is so funny. In fact only those with a trader in their team will be able to keep the wrangle going. then the trader will have to use a so low ql weapon cause wrangler is buff for the team but debuff for him.
    It will be so funny to use a shotgun ql 50 when i'm lvl 100 only to make the engin keeping is bot.






    RK2

  18. #398

    Umm

    Well, with having a pet class i'll just be really friendly with the meta's out there.

    Coffee , Tea anyone!!

  19. #399
    Haven't read the posts in this thread yet, apologies if these questions/comments have been stated ad nauseum:

    1) How will healing pets work? If a pet is healing me and not under attack, will it automatically switch to /pet behind in the middle of a melee if I am debuffed run out?

    2) The attack pet will not continue attacking unless it is the one that the mob is targeting, correct? So if my healing pet is the current target (as it often is), then the attack pet will go to /pet behind mode?

    3) Why not just reduce pet damage/ac/health by 25% per 20% overequip like you do with weapons?

    4) You acknowledge that the debuffs combined with the Psychic checks are a devestating combination, how about throwing crats a very small bone and not including charmed pets into the over equipping changes? The charmed pets have a very short duration relative to summoned pets, therefore it isn't like we can summon one and keep it for 6 hours (or 6 days if we are an engineer who doesn't log out when afk). We are talking about 15 minutes, max. You've taken away our main nano line when we are teaming (as teams attack mobs well above our Psychic checks), throw us a bone here.

    5) I would also suggest excluding healing pet. I've never heard of anyone complaining because someone was casting too high of a heal pet and this would let the MP know that even if he loses his ability to do damage to a debuff, he has a chance of surviving until it wears off.

    6) You are making a big mistake in not having an across the board reduction in mob health.

    7) "A de-buff will affect the pet professions hard, yes, but it will also hit the direct-damage dealing nano-program and weapon users." I have seen no one disagree with this. Our point is that it won't hit them as hard. In fact, NOWHERE near as hard. It is really as simple as a 25% reduction versus a 100% reduction in damage-dealing capacity.

    8) While making IQ Rings unequipable, take the UNIQUE designation off them as well. And off Flurry of Blows and MA attacks and the other items stealth nerfed by your UNIQUE change.

    Despite these quibbles, I think these changes are LONG overdue! Glad to see you headed in this direction.

    Scorus

  20. #400

    Unhappy OE and Buffing/Debuffing?

    I have to agree I also have many worries over the Debuff issue and the OE fix on the whole.

    I agree there are two concerns here, one is the OE fix and the other seems to be a new system for handling buffs in general and I think the two issues are being mixed up.

    If I (a low lvl player) go up against a high level player or monster (or one specialising in buffs) and receive a very powerful debuff, not only do I have a hard time due to my skills being lowered, but isn't it a possibility that my Armor and/or Weapons are rendered completely useless as well? In these extremes it doesn't matter about my skills anymore. For PVP the focus may turn to debuffing as many skills as possible in order to render weapons and armor useless.

    I think this makes buffs more powerful and would put larger divides between levels of players and monsters.


    1) I think the key to OE is to seperate buffs and equipment. I would like to see buffing and debuffing have no impact on the skills needed to equip and/or use equipment effectively.

    2) If we can't unequip equipment from over equiped players, then it would be nice to be able to equip any weapon or armor (without the need to buff) and see the effects of OE observable once equipped. (example: it doesn't stop you picking it up or putting it on, you just can't use it effectively)

    3) I would prefer to see the effects of over equipping on a scaled basis rather than stepped at 20% i.e. a 1% OE would show a 1% decrease and perhaps a 50% OE would show a 100% decrease! (otherwise you might just as well lower the requirements for all armor and weapons by 20%, stop over equipping and have done with it!)

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