Overequipping and the IP reset: A follow-up

[vespucci]

When we (NTs) were finally able to stun, I thought it was a godsend. You could Stun a trader into submission before he got the debuff off.

Then it was removed (really really fast) no next patch or anything, it was only a few days before it got nerfed into nonexitance.

We still survive, we still level. Is it hard? Yes Damn Hard! That is why we gripe so much on our board.

However, you will adapt. My NT dies more than any of my other characters. He has probably lost 5 times more IP than my other characters, but for some reason I still enjoy playing him. Perhaps because he is so hard to play.

I'll just say that I'm concerned to see so much feedback, yet Funcom has decided to go ahead with the patch unchanged, unaltered, unmodified. They say they want feedback, yet do nothing (through action) to indicate that the feedback in meaningful. They tell us they appreciate it, but no action is taken on the biggest issue Funcom has faced.

There will be big issues with this impending patch. There have been some very good ideas generated in this forum. One idea I liked was to be able to transfer my character(s) to the test server.

Funcom should finalize the technology to allow us to do this before implementing a fundamental patch that will effect the very foundation of the game.

The debuff mitigation nano should also be released with the patch. I think these two basic actions will go along way in mitigating concerns of the playerbase

My 2 credits.

Mirlin NT lvl. 52

[Turin]

Originally posted by Paynie


Great when you do a 50% mission and there's three yellow mobs in the main room ...

You just shut your own insulting trap and get back to work lamer.

PFFT. You think I have the solo world easy as a doc? I dont. But I CAN solo a 50% mission. its called.. AGRO PULL. Learn it. Live it. Love it. It takes me 2 hours to solo a BIG dungeon. The battles go very slow. but I CAN. a 60-70% missoin, i get my a$$ beat. Just like im supposed to. I just dont think this is a hard concept to master.

[Kuro]

I play a trader. I use my debuff nanos almost constantly in combat. I'm completely aware of the ability to 'ladder' the debuff nanos to cause huge penalties to the target and huge bonuses for me. But the majority of people worrying traders are ignoring, prolly willfully, a few things.

1. Trader players will be just as vulnerable to other trader and mp debuffs.
   If we use our divest/plunders to overequip our weapons and use higher nanos, any debuff we get hit with will most likely push us into the overequip category just as easily as anyone else. While this may knock me down to what other's consider unbuffed effectiveness, those nice damage ranges that has everyone rushing to equip a Vektor ND Lizard shotgun are highly dependant on having skills over the requirement.
2. While the deprive/ransack line of nanos do stack with each other, their effects are not cumulative.
   The only way to cause a -400 debuff to skills is to successfully execute a Divest Skills (Major) and a Plunder Skills (Major) on the same target. Any lesser nano of the Deprive/Ransack lines will be replaced by the higher one, including their effects.
3. A Divest nano will not stack with a Deprive. Nor will a Ransack stack with a Plunder.
   They're of the same lines of nanos. Just different names.
4. Nano resist has an effect against divest/plunders
   Ask anyone that plays a trader. Plunders line nanoformulas are more easily resisted than Divest line nanoformulas. I've have had my plunders resisted far more than any nanoformula I've used. Sometimes up to 3 times consecutively.
5. 'Laddering' the skill debuffs against a single target, while possible, is NOT practical.
   While we're executing these nanos, we're not doing damage. And these nanos have a rather healthy recharge period attached to them as well. Even with the reduced damage that might be caused by sending someone into the OE category, we'll still be taking damage without returning any. From my standpoint in a 1 on 1 situation, it doesn't matter if you're as weak as a newborn leet at the end of the fight. If I'm dead, the winner is the newborn leet.
6. Trader skill debuffs do not affect any special attacks
   If the target is wielding a weapon that requires a special attack like Brawl, Aimed Shot, or Full Auto getting hit by a Trader debuff won't cause those skills to drop. I wield Ithica's occasionally with the bare minimum requirement for Fling Shot. Only the Shotgun skill on that weapon can cause me to go into the OE category. Now multiskill weapons that require 2 actual Attack skills are vulnerable to debuffs, I admit that freely. But to me, the simplistic solution to that problem is to get the damage upped on weapons like that to balance out their vulnerability.

As I said, I play a trader. I don't support this patch because I'll become PvP Uber. I only engage in PvP in self defense. So far as I can tell, the OE rules won't apply to the mobs who are my primary targets in the game so far. I don't support it because I can always self-buff myself into weapons off my level. I can go only so far with self-buffing before it becomes more trouble to get my skills up high enough to keep from OE than to just OE to a safe level (which is usually the divest/plunder I can use with my unbuffed nanoskills). I actually support it because I see it as the beginning steps to implmenting more variety in the game. With everyone on a more even keel on how effective (or overly effective) they can be, it's easier to start implementing mobs with specific vulnerabilities. Easier to put in more advanced AI routines instead of making every mob a walking juggernaught against the fear that the overequippers will walk through the content while the casual players won't be able to scratch them. And more variety is a good thing to me.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Vespucci
When we (NTs) were finally able to stun, I thought it was a godsend. You could Stun a trader into submission before he got the debuff off.

Then it was removed (really really fast) no next patch or anything, it was only a few days before it got nerfed into nonexitance.

We still survive, we still level. Is it hard? Yes Damn Hard! That is why we gripe so much on our board.

However, you will adapt. My NT dies more than any of my other characters. He has probably lost 5 times more IP than my other characters, but for some reason I still enjoy playing him. Perhaps because he is so hard to play.

I'll just say that I'm concerned to see so much feedback, yet Funcom has decided to go ahead with the patch unchanged, unaltered, unmodified. They say they want feedback, yet do nothing (through action) to indicate that the feedback in meaningful. They tell us they appreciate it, but no action is taken on the biggest issue Funcom has faced.

There will be big issues with this impending patch. There have been some very good ideas generated in this forum. One idea I liked was to be able to transfer my character(s) to the test server.

Funcom should finalize the technology to allow us to do this before implementing a fundamental patch that will effect the very foundation of the game.

The debuff mitigation nano should also be released with the patch. I think these two basic actions will go along way in mitigating concerns of the playerbase

My 2 credits.

Mirlin NT lvl. 52

There is a difference between leaving one's UNTESTED announced plans unchanged versus leaving one's plans unchanged after testing them. Funcom did announce the intended changes that would have deequipped people's weapons and armor if they lacked the skill requirements. They collected feedback beforehand and did not change their plans. They implemented them on the Test dimension for about 2 days as they had announced them. Question: does anyone see their weapons unequipping when they don't meet the stats.

I think this patch will take some extensive testing before we see it on the Live dimensions. I'm also betting it'll mutate while on the Test dimension, after Funcom gets some practical feedback from the people that donate their time testing their instead of untried whinefest of some of the people posting in these threads (not you specifically, Mirlin). But really if people pulled their plans untried and untested solely on the basis of what people think the results would be like, how many inventions would we be without today?

[Kuro]

Everyone keeps saying the mob's HP won't be getting cut. Perhaps I read Gaute's original statement wrong:

3. Will the HPs (health points) of the monsters be reduced?

We are going to go through the monsters and evaluate a reduction of hit-points for the most extreme monsters. (That is, a Level 180 Offal Larva has 10 times the amount of HPs that a normal monster has on that level.) Basically, we are going to make the variation smaller; thus the average is somewhat reduced. What I will not do is to reduce the normal monster hit-points at this time. This is not the same as saying that we'll NEVER do it - just that I would like to watch the impact of the current changes first. I am afraid of doing too many changes at the same time, and what the synergy of them might be.

I read this statement as saying that the 'special' mobs, for lack of a better term will be getting their HP reduced while the normal mobs remain the same. So there's not an across the board reduction of HP. But the 'twinked' mobs will be getting reduced.

Loosely translated from VagueSpeak (tm): No we won't be reducing the HP of that Old Golfe or Rollerrat because they're normal mobs. But that Cyborg Lieutenant will prolly get tweaked.

[infrared]

i dont see why people complain about funcom support. this is GREAT support right here. they listen and they act upon our requests

[_______________kratt]

Even if crats make up a small amount of the players on Rubi-Ka...that is no excuse to not take us into consideration. Crats are just as lethal as an enforcer is...charming a deep red mob to fight in our favor. Losing control of an OE'd pet past 20% will completely ruin pet professions. Self equipped (dark orange) pets are not nearly enough to fight mobs worth fighting. Mobs begin to have 10k+ HP's and are nearly impossible unless you can OE charms and pets far beyond your level.

[___________Zeroshift]

CZ ONE COMMENT:

I don't think pet's should continue attacking their current target if they are debuffed.

It's not fair to other classes....

Do weapon users get to finish off their current target before the debuff takes effect? NO

Same goes for nukers like NT's,

What is the point of a debuff if it doesn't take effect until after you are dead?

[____________Maitrize]

LOL.

I suppose this is unrelated but the number of character accounts up on auction sites has seemingly jumped a bit, especially in the area of engineers.

[Painsmaiden]

Originally posted by Zeroshift
CZ ONE COMMENT:

I don't think pet's should continue attacking their current target if they are debuffed.

It's not fair to other classes....

Do weapon users get to finish off their current target before the debuff takes effect? NO

Same goes for nukers like NT's,

What is the point of a debuff if it doesn't take effect until after you are dead?

That is exactly why nearly every single pet class has posted asking that the pet be debuffed by 25% of it's effectiveness INSTEAD of shutting down. That way, the debuffer gets that warm fuzzy feeling that his debuff did something, while at the same time, the pet class still has a chance to win, no matter how small it may be. I still think all this OE crap is a bad bad bad idea, but if they are gonna do it, at least make it fair to all the classes across the board.

Edit: And the more I think about it, debuffs should reduce the effectiveness of Nanos by x amount if debuffed. The practice of not allowing already uploaded nanos not to function is too harsh. If they are going to implement a system like this, it needs to be smooth across the board. So if you were debuffed to where you were ON'd (Over Nano'd) by x% on your best nuke, then it would be reduced by n% in average damage. Same for buffs, they should be n% shorter in duration. Heals heal for n% less. This makes sense for a number of reasons. It allows you to continue to use the same programs with out having to shuffle through your list and use different programs. That is good for gameplay. It also provides some much needed cohesion to this system. It also has just about the same net effect as shutting a nano down completely. If you were to jump back down to the next most powerful version of that spell, you are probably at about the same effective power. Maybe a bit more in some cases, but it makes more sense to run a np at reduced effectiveness then not run it at all. Cohesion is important in any kind of system like this. You can't have different rules for classes that play the same game. If this were a game that like EQ where it was class centric, then sure. But this game, even though we do have defined classes, is actually skill centric, so that doesn't hold true in AO.

The basis of my argument for this comes down to one thing. Say I face a Clanner in battle. He puts a DoT on me. Then I cast a debuff on him that pulls his DoT nano into OE status. Will that DoT that is on me cease to function? No. Will it decrease in effectiveness even after he is dead? No. I think the reason that Funcom is taking such a hard stance on pets is because they are technically a nano program. But if it were balanced in truth, then that clanners DoT would cease as soon as I debuffed him or as soon as he was dead. At the very least if I debuff him, the DoT he cast on me should function in a sub-par manner. Since that is not the case, then a pet should function at reduced effectiveness, as should any other nano. So, either each side of this problem is taken a look at and handled elegantly or you end up with a system full of loopholes and inequalities.

If they are going to put in a system like this, they better take a look at EVERYTHING. It effects everything players do in this game and will drastically affect the way that we play the game. If this change is truly in the name of balance, then they will. If it's not and is merely a ploy to increase leveling time, then I doubt that they will even comment.

[________________Sent]

Originally posted by Maitrize
LOL.

I suppose this is unrelated but the number of character accounts up on auction sites has seemingly jumped a bit, especially in the area of engineers.

Of course, people are farming characters to sell. I bet they are some of the biggest complainers over the 14.2 patch.

[Xtremtech]

Firstly, my apologies at the very beginningb for not having read the whole thread through for any possible answers or statements directly regarding my questions. I tried that last time and suffered for it as a result. Obviously, I missed some good game play but also got some nasty looks from my other half for spending so much time on a web site (which were slightly different to the "why do you spend most of your life in a virtuali world" looks I usually get).

The question I have regarding the overequipping changes is regards to Nano Resist. Clearly, when buffed people will be able to reach stuff that they would like to use. When a good debuff is used this can put them at a great disadvantage and indeed it would be possible that they simply cannot get the benefit back in regard to weapons and armour they might have put on or pets/bots they might have created. While I understand from Gaute's post that this is part of the plan as it were, I'm also wondering whether anything will be done to balance this by improving or changing the effect of Nano Resist on those debuffs (and in general).

I've been posting on other boards and talking to people in game and the general opinion is:

1) in PvP you reduce DD nano damage a little when you have high Nano Resist.

2) against Mobs resist is as good as useless

3) against DoTs/roots/debuffs etc resist is supposed to reduce the time of the effect but doesn't seem to noticeably

Is this the case?

Would it make sense to beef up resist?

Or at least revisit the calculations for resist in the light of these OE changes?

Might it be an idea to increase the chances of completely resisting a nano for those who are maxed out on Nano Resist? Could we put in an in screen message that says "You resist the 'caster's nano attack by XX%", so that we can see for ourselves how effective our skills are and decide whether to invest further or less in Nano Resist.

Since IP Resetting will be coming in the same patch as OE, it would be perfectly valid for someone to put a lot of points into Nano Resist as an aid at that time, if we knew that it were going to do any good...

X

[Painsmaiden]

For everyone who is against the OE changes (like I am), you migth as well save your breath. This IS going to happen and all the *****ing in the world probably won't change it. Here is a quote (unedited) from a Adam, a Funcom employee chatting with Lee from BlackSnow in ICQ logs to be found at:

http://www.unknownplayer.com/archive/02/03/15/442.php

Read it and weep

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Adam] 1/29/200 10:45 AM That's ok I've far too many tools to write to
be able to actually catch half the number of
exploits I'd like to catch.

I'm sadistic, I wanted soft experience caps
put in. ANd a hard cap on the QL of items one
could equip over their level. But an even
more sadistic chap than myself came up with an
even more evil means of deturing
over-equiping.

[Lee] 1/29/200 10:46 AM Oh wait a minute.......if i give you the no
drop trade, will we be prohibited from doing
that? That would take away about 100k of
sales from us over the next two months

[Lee] 1/29/200 10:46 AM hehe what is that?

[Adam] 1/29/200 10:46 AM I doubt we would be able to get it fixe dover
the next two months.

[Adam] 1/29/200 10:47 AM Sorry cant share that one, you'll see when it
is released.. THe cries of NERPH will be
heard round the world.

[Lee] 1/29/200 10:47 AM lol, i already heard a rumor, a customer told
me two days something big was coming. you
guys have a leak somewhere
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This stuff is a foregone conclusion. It WILL go in and it won't matter what we say. They don't care what we think. The only thing that matters is the almighty dollar. The only thing you can do to change things as a paying customer is to STOP paying. And that is what I will do the day this goes live.

[____________Halbundy]

Turin,

I just dont get why you're so bitter about someone being able to do higher level missions than you can ? What exactly is it ? If a player can go into a SOLO mission and be succesful at 70% difficulty what did they take from you ? I just cant see it. What are they taking from your gaming experience? You haven't offered up any reasons for this nerf other than, " Everyone should suck as much as I do !! "

If you're content with running 50% missions, then knock yourself out. I could care less what you do and don't do on your solo missions. Heh, "dont do" probably far outweighs the "do" in your case....at least thats what I conclude from how angry and concerned you are about what others are doing.

Stop staring at the guy standing at the urinal next to you, Turin. Spend more time OE'ing or something. Maybe you wont be so bitter if you actually made some advancement in your character's ability instead of being jealous of what others are doing. The same path is ( soon to be 'was' ) open to you. If you choose not to take it, dont be so worked up that others choose to do so.

Halbundy

[Beaumont]

First of all, I don't agree with the OE patch at all. I think it will probably be the last straw that makes Funcom go bankrupt.

Question: How will this effect an MA's hand damage and how will debuffs effect it?

[_______Heart of Evil]

Originally posted by Kuroshio
'Laddering' the skill debuffs against a single target, while possible, is NOT practical.
While we're executing these nanos, we're not doing damage. And these nanos have a rather healthy recharge period attached to them as well. Even with the reduced damage that might be caused by sending someone into the OE category, we'll still be taking damage without returning any. From my standpoint in a 1 on 1 situation, it doesn't matter if you're as weak as a newborn leet at the end of the fight. If I'm dead, the winner is the newborn leet.

I despise the pvp aspect of the game, so it's unlikely that I will ever experience the joy of being debuffed for -400 to attack and nano skills.

However, I do run a ton of solo missions. Anyone who has has a clue will know that in most respects mobs DO NOT follow the same set of 'rules' as a player. Lengthy casting or recharge times mean very little when the nanos will be insta-cast by mobs.

I feel for you, Mr. Trader. You'll be the first class to be nerfed post 14.2 and I, the MP, will be the second. Engineers will definately need a lot of love, but most other professions will weather the changes without too many problems.

Funcom could be very political here and sooth a lot of fears by ending most hostile nano formulas once the source is dead, or a player zones. They seem to be on the right track with the item they are making to remove hostile NFs, but honestly we don't need more items... we need a solution to game imbalance.

[Valdar]

While I agree with the general idea of the thread I don't think they have taken into account one thing.
Traders.

Basicly Traders are hands down the most powerful class in the game. They have the best BUFFS, the best DEBUFFS, pretty damn good heals, good roots...most people ask "What don't they have?"
This patch will render them unstoppable. Since traders can constantly keep their skills buffed up from drains they will still be able to equip the best equipment right away like they can now. Except they will be the only class able to do this (maybe agents as well, but they have slow casting time in their nanos while in FP: Trader). So you'll have level 75 Traders with ql 200 Home Defenders fighting other people with ql 100 guns at that level.

Not only will the trader have this ubergun equipped which will be critting for over 40%, they can and WILL debuff their PvP opponents rendering even higher level characters into whimpering balls. This is somewhat of an issue now, but it is balanced by the fact that every other class will still have a working weapon equipped. Now when the trader ransacks/deprives you for -300 skill your gun will be rendered useless in addition to any nano programs/pets you will be using.

What is being done to address this Funcom?
Did I miss something that will keep traders from essentially destroying everyone?

-Valdar

[Pneuma]

In my earlier post I said that I stacked my implants. What I meant to say is that I use stepping implants. Being able to use an implant to equip another implant in the same slot was the issue I meant to address. Not the exploit known as "stacking". Just wanted to clear that up. =)

[______________Desbet]

Originally posted by Asmodan


What the hell does the EULA have to do with providing feedback on a proposed patch?.

Easy, I'll paraphrase.

FC has the right to change the EULA and/or "game" at any point in time to better suit the plans they've got for the "story" and/or what they feel is needed.

They can do 14.2 with or without our "help" its unkind abuse on -our- part to complain over and over again about the same crap that has already been adressed. Unless you're an Uber twink, and have abused the game system (punishable by account termination if you read the EULA, atleast it is an option, FC generally will not take that road, they are instead making a patch to fix this)... unless you're an uber twink, 14.2 won't affect as much as you're fearing.

unless you're a pet person. i didn't play them quite enough to know whats going to happen.

[______________Dienst]

So the OE changes will come to help balance the game,,it may be good it may not. But if that is the goal,,,,,balance,,, can some one explain to me where the balance is when I am level 85 and I get ganked by a level 156? The difference in levels is no different than at level 85 I go to the back yard and smoke a few l-3s,,,thats balance? If it is,,,,,,,,,so is OE