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Thread: Overequipping and the IP reset: A follow-up

  1. #201

    Re: Nano resist

    Originally posted by Chief Engineer
    Heh nano resist??....there are none its a bugged system...


    I was rooted 4x by a level 10ish mob when I was level 90 and my nano resist was maxed for my level at the time.
    Ohh I can beat that.

    I resist roots and stuff all the time. Not common, but not rarely.
    I've never raised it (well _maybe_ once at like lvl10, but nothing seriously).
    Its at around 40ish right now, due to my lvl 80 maxed abilities.

    Tell me how its possible that I resist roots more often than my ql 113 atkl pet.

  2. #202
    Originally posted by WGMelchior
    Bionitrous, if the player doesn't raise his Dimach a point above the required Dimach, then of course that skill would be vurnerable to debuffs. But, he can quite easily raise Dimach 20 points more, and then that debuff wouldn't even touch him.
    .
    Thats a fine point for that particular argument. But lets look at what we'll see in the wild (pvp and pvm). Heavy weapons or ranged energy debuffs (ransacks or deprives) of 100 or more will turn OFF most ql 80-100 energy weapons. That holds true even if the player has spent an extra 30ish points on the skill. Assuming standard stuffs, that player is probably lvl 75-80 (for the ql 100 weapon example) and is about to be slowed then killed by a GREEN or GREY mob. If this happens away from the zone border (mission door, what have you), then the player dosent stand a chance. NOT ONE CHANCE.

    FC, PLEASE, exempt the secondary skills from the OE checks. The primaries and non-wranglable secondary skills will still require lots of IP to be invested and will limit OEing. Please, you're going to seriously damage the game if you dont.

  3. #203

    Re: Nano resist

    Originally posted by Chief Engineer
    Heh nano resist??....there are none its a bugged system...


    I was rooted 4x by a level 10ish mob when I was level 90 and my nano resist was maxed for my level at the time.
    Different nanos are easier to resist than others. The Ransack line of trader nanos is easier to resist than the Deprive lines. A better gauge of nanoresist would be to face an equal level player and see what happens on other nano types. Player, not mob. We all know mobs cheat

  4. #204

    I don't use Dimache

    I put a beam on my Metaphysicist every once in a while to help my pets. I never, ever, Dimache. I can't overequip Dimach because as far as I know there is no buff for it outside of implants.

    That being said, while my regular hits are for 200, 220, 180, 500, my Dimache is for 12.

    Dimache does not count into the attack rating for the Beam. This is why I can use the beam to full effectiveness while still sucking at Dimache or to a lower degree Brawling.

    That's just an isolated case using a Tertiary skill that is not easily debuffed. I put it forth as an extreme example of a lvl100 item that could be 100% self-equipped that could be debuffed by a lvl4 character with two NanoExpertise programs running.

    The same applies to many, many weapons. Our favorite profession to crap on is the Agent. Well, he's figured out (like everybody else) that you need some Shotgun to do any damage. So some clever Agents picked up:

    http://antiguardians.org/itemdb.php?&cmd=view&id=124003

    Clever agents, those guys. Here's the requirements.

    Rifle: 794 (635 to hit penalty)
    Shotgun: 530 (424 to hit -25% penalty, 318 to hit -50% penalty)
    Aimed shot: 442

    Let's say Mr. Clever Agent is NOT an over-equipper. He has 800 rifle self-buffed and 550 Shotgun. Seems fair?

    Take a 'moderate' Trader ransack/deprive/divest/plunder/whatever combination of 250 points (I'm working as I go)

    So he has Rifle now at 550. Ouch! 25% damage penalty. Hey but that's what debuffs are for, right. ...

    So he has Shotgun now at 300. WTF?!? I repeat WTF?!?

    This borked up proposed change has now taken a gun that our friendly Agent was UNDEREQUIPPED in and made it do HALF DAMAGE with a COMMON debuff combination.

    Let me remind you that this was a fairly moderate Ransack/Deprive combo at only -250. (EDIT: and note that your average in-game Agent in that Ranee will have more like 900 Rifle Skill and 450 Shotgun Skill and will probably be dropped into the -75% range via a simple low-end debuff. I was being generous)

    This portion of the proposed changes is even MORE BROKEN than the silly rational behind not being able to implement a properly scaling 'punishment' algorithm in place of the inane '3-step' program.

    But then again we wouldn't expect them to get their lips off the straw in the coconut drink to look at valid concerns, now would we? We already know the programmers told the game designer that this would be the easiest thing to do and in fact they had already worked most of it out. I work with programmers. I know why crap like this makes it to release.
    Last edited by Bionitrous; Mar 15th, 2002 at 21:44:03.

  5. #205

    Talking Pet Classes stop your whining

    Strange that when a concept such as OE or debuffing affects you from creating the uber pet or even sustaining a mediocre one - causes you to whine out the mouth louder than the worst newbie.

    I've been around since beta and NTs have suffered more than any other single profession. So, now when you get hit closer to home you want to complain?? I don't think so. You aren't allowed to complain until the system is actually implemented and you've lived with the changes for atleast 6 months.

    *targets all engineers/MPs/Bureaucrats*
    /forbid whining
    *executes AE silence with %t*

  6. #206

    Re: I don't use Dimache

    Originally posted by Bionitrous
    But then again we wouldn't expect them to get their lips off the straw in the coconut drink to look at valid concerns, now would we? We already know the programmers told the game designer that this would be the easiest thing to do and in fact they had already worked most of it out. I work with programmers. I know why crap like this makes it to release.
    Amen Brudda. I also work with many programmers.
    This is exactly the kind of junk they'd try to get past me into production. I don't expect them to switch to a proportional scale, but I do HOPE that they leave out the secondaries and avoid seriously F**KING UP this game.


    (And how much of all this is because the NTs can't ever shutup?)

  7. #207

    Unhappy I hope you are all happy

    Well, all the jealousy newbie *****ing and blind fanboi following has finally come to fruition. I hope you are all happy now. I still have yet to find a single reason why ANYONE would actually WANT these changes to go thru. YOU don't OE so he shouldn't? You choose not too, so he can't? You can't afford it and he can so you think no one should? WTF is the matter with you people?

    I have 4 words to some up what this is turning into:

    DARK
    AGE
    OF
    CAMELOT

    Cookie cutter, non twinking boring POS game. Everyone is the same. Now AO is heading down the same road. I am appauled for numerous reasons here. First I am shocked and amazed at the blindness with which so many of you fanbois follow whatever Gaute or Cz says. Just because they are game staff does NOT mean they are smarter or have better foresight than any of us. If you think for a minute that taking a very long time to level in a game with a bare minumum of content is going to keep a high level around for any amount of time, I'm afraid that you'd be wrong. High levels stuck around in EQ to go on cool ass raids and kill legendary creatures that have a story built around them. They stick around to twink alts and have "FUN" with them. Hell even now as I write, on the EQ test server there are groundbreaking changes on it that drastically shorten the newbie level period in the game. No more CRs under level 10, rezzes/revives at level 14. And best of all, no more hell levels pre-50. I am of the opinion that EQ has the right idea. They are shortening the low level period focusing on content for high level players to retain the loyal customers. From what I am reading and have heard, every level in AO past 100 is like a hell level. Well with no content, raids, or other interesting stuff to do, what is is left? Yes that's right...twink a new character. If that option is gone, then so are alot of those players, taking their money with them.

    For the casual Joe Gamer, this is still gonna hurt. Because once they finally get to the level when they feel that they NEED to OE just to survive, they won't be able to. All the whining and jealous bickering of the holier than thou, untainted "pure non-OE" characters is now going to catch up to everyone at level 100 or so and make life suck for everyone. I hope you ar happy now. Don't you people understand that gun toting classes that don't/won't OE (Fixer, Agent, Soldier, Doc) SUCK? Getting beat to within an inch of your life on a yellow is NOT fun. I sincerely hope you are freakin happy. Mob hp aren't dropping, AC was already supposedly dropped on human type mobs.

    Changing the whole style of play this far into the game is just inexcuseable. I love AO, but I get the feeling that the designers either don't play the game or just don't care. And the bugs, OMG don't get me started on the existing bugs. Fix the $hit that is broken already before you go opening a whole new can of worms like this. I can already invision the weapon that get "stuck" in -50% mode. OMG, /petition. There are 542 petition ahead of you. I have yet to see a patch that didn't introduce as many new bugs as it suuposedly fixed. You may think that my lack faith in the dev team is harsh, but it's been backed up time and time again by their utter inability to pull off anything resembling a smooth patch. And they are being paid well for their ineptness, which is sickening.

    Sorry but this whole thing really really makes me angry. Anyone who thinks that cutting personalisation out of a game and making everyone the same is just flat out stupid. Yes, that means you. What is more fun? Driving Red Chevy Cavalier #5381 or the Electric Blue Metallic Camaro Z-28 with a Supercharged 350 with NoS and dual Glasspacks? Umm yeah, life just got a lot less interesting. Once again, I hope you are finally happy. WTG.

  8. #208
    I agree with these changes 100%, although i do think that either mod HP or AC should be scaled back a bit.

  9. #209

    Debuffing

    I hope that from reading the many, many posts about debuffing, FC decides to leave this out of the OE equation. IMHO, it has nothing to do with fixing Over Equipping. So, what's the point?

    Sarelron

  10. #210

    Re: Haha!

    Originally posted by Yme
    Now NT will do most damage of all profs and noone will be able to kill yellow mobs ever again!!! You see, NT have problems killing yellow mobs... when everyone else cant OE enymore... well.. NTs will do more damage then you, and guess what! You will have more problems killing mobs... how swell
    Lol. You're either dreaming, or refering to the low lvl game. Above 100ish over-equiping really isn't relevant for weapon classes (debuffs aside), and most damage is caused by crits.

    Of course, over-equiping is still relevant for "non-weapon" classes in the post 100 game. Guess what an NT is?

    Net: NT's *must* equip a high lvl weapon, get llts and crit buffs to compare to weapons users damage in the high lvl game. We used to overequip to do this. Overall, NT damage output went *down*, not up in comparison to other classes.

    The only part of your post that is correct is that yellow mobs are going to be... ahem... "challenging" to solo throughout most of the game now, for most prof's (very low lvl game excepted). Guess what? That's how it should be -- you want the best xp thought most of the game then team (which is by design).

    On a slightly different note: Some people are complaining that trader debuffs will now mean more downtime for them in missions. Guess what? Some classes always had to deal with this (and a number of other debuffs) causing downtime. So (a) it's not unfair in any way, and (b) FC's already indicated that they're releasing an item to improve the situation. Buck up.


    ZanEridath <-- Supports the OE patch

  11. #211
    9. Shouldn't the OE be applied to NCUs, implants and other similar equipment?

    This has been the topic of much internal discussion. People say that the golden path to over-equipping is through NCUs. This may be true... but we still decided not to include the NCU belt or NCU memory in the OE focus. It might not be the wisest of decisions, but we still felt the Armour and Weapons to be the most significant OE issues. The difference is that a high NCU count would make people more social - they'd find team play more enjoyable etc. I don't want to affect that. That is why...
    So you agree most OE happens on the NCU and you agree it is not wise not to include it, but just for the sake of socialisation....

    Man this is realy unfair, so i have green Computer Literacy, can i please change this free skill for another oofh say dark Blue Full auto, it will be much more usefull to me. This is very very unfair, you cannot arbitrarily decide wich skills to include on the OE (i understand your explanation on the implants, and have to agree) but you are negating the advantage of Classes with Green CL skill, unless you agree with me that the skill color on the classes is unbalanced to start with, because classes with bad CL are getting oen free skill and classes with Ggood CL are not getting much at all, if you told me that each class got to choose one free skill of choice that would be fair (redicolous, but fair). You have all the reasons to include NCUs and even all the HUD items on the OE checks.... i'm affraid i cannot take much more of the unfairnesses in this game, i have Real life to give me that.

    Other than this thank you for the very informative article and the good feedback.

    But please i urge you to reconcider, "Socialization" has nothing to do with NCU... it's just an excuse and i realy don't get it.

    You simple cannot tell some classes: "sorry, you are strong in the wrong places"; Having the possibility to equip more NCU is a "weapon" and you are freeing more ips, for the strong fighting classes that supposably had bad CL to balance the skills and let them become even stronger.

    I cannot tell you enough how terrible this is, it's just plain wrong.

    Scopes are extremely important for your overall damage output, again weak classes that have good trade skills could get a lotle edge by usign better scopes and HUD equipment and you are giving more and more power to the already strong class to get free ip and good items equiped... unfair.

    you might as well not go through the trouble and do the OE, because the most unbalacing OE is the NCU everyone knows it, and the scopes are too powerfull and item (all HUD items) not to be included in the OE check. Same goes for movement predictors everything.

    please reconsider

    Playing AO since 20 july 2001, and i'd like to have a reason to stay

  12. #212

    Re: Pet Classes stop your whining

    Originally posted by Drabin
    Strange that when a concept such as OE or debuffing affects you from creating the uber pet or even sustaining a mediocre one - causes you to whine out the mouth louder than the worst newbie.

    I've been around since beta and NTs have suffered more than any other single profession. So, now when you get hit closer to home you want to complain?? I don't think so. You aren't allowed to complain until the system is actually implemented and you've lived with the changes for atleast 6 months.

    *targets all engineers/MPs/Bureaucrats*
    /forbid whining
    *executes AE silence with %t*
    I've been saying for a LONG time that NT's need to be fixed. But every time I see someone talk like this I regret even bothering to try to help out.

    Your class is broken, something needs to be done about how your nanos work as far as debuffing and overequipping.

    You class won't be any less broken by being an ass and pushing for everyone else to get screwed.
    Fausto "Dealbreaker" Age

  13. #213

    Lightbulb The point is..

    Last Posted by Sarelron
    I hope that from reading the many, many posts about debuffing, FC decides to leave this out of the OE equation. IMHO, it has nothing to do with fixing Over Equipping. So, what's the point?
    The point is dear boy, no one profession should be affected by a debuff solely. If debuffing won't affect Eng/MPs/crats/weapon users, then it shouldn't affect NTs as well.

    FC, finally well done. I'm so sick and tired of all these *let's keep the game like it was* demotivating snots still questioning a well balanced upcoming patch. Three cheers for a great and wonderful job.

  14. #214

    Debuffing

    Debuffing has EVERYTHING to do with this patch. Part of the argument going back to last year was that debuffs did NOTHING visible to affect the recipient.

    Enhancing the effectiveness of Debuffs was to be a major element of these changes.

    Problem is the assinine proposal is so borked up that debuffing now has become godlike.

    Rather than an elegant modification to the effect of (1+ATK/400) to make ATK matter more (thus addressing BOTH over-equipping AND making debuffs more worthwhile) we get some convoluted hard-coded 'steps' just to confuse the hell out of people, make debuffs godlike, and basically break about six areas of the game. Oh, and yes I admit, put the clamps down on exploiters.

    What do we want? We want someone with 100 skill and a qlvl200 item to do MUCH less damage than someone with 800 skill and a qvll200 item. Yes ... .yes, this is what I want too.

    What don't we want? For them to BREAK THE GOD DAMN GAME while attempting to do this.

    Hey, FunCom. PM me on this board, I'll give you the specifics on how to fix this THE RIGHT WAY while being fair. You tell me how much you want to punish someone for what percent OE and I'll tell you how to put that punishment in the game without pissing off half your playerbase.

    Or you could just search my earlier posts (going back to last June if you want to dig up your supposedly 'lost' forum archives)

  15. #215

    Re: The point is..

    Originally posted by Drabin

    FC, finally well done. I'm so sick and tired of all these *let's keep the game like it was* demotivating snots still questioning a well balanced upcoming patch. Three cheers for a great and wonderful job.
    Amen

  16. #216

    One thing yall are forgetting about Dual wield

    I have noticed a couple people answering questions about dual wield and the OE patch. One thing y'all might be forgetting is that you often don't meet the multi wield requirements on the weapon in your main hand.

    Because of the skill requirements for dual wield being so high you are almost forced to use a lower ql weapon in your off hand. Right now the only requirement to dual wield is based off the weapon in your off hand.

    How does this patch effect the weapon in your primary hand if you don't meet its dual wield requirements?

    A follow up to this is what about items like low light scopes, night vision goggles (ok, so this would be a low level problem), and those yamawhatever targeting scopes?

  17. #217
    FC is doing poor maths for poor balance. Ans some ignorant players now pretend to know all and post in forums. This is sick.




    Please Cz go tell your team they have to be ashame.

  18. #218
    Originally posted by Bionitrous


    Because unfortunately, the short-sighted game designers have opted to choose your character 'level' as the ultimate display of your 'skill' or 'power'. They feel that those who have the most available free time to 'level' should be viewed as the 'best' players. A mindless mentally-deificient agoraphobe who managed to reach lvl200 after days and days in his Jolt-cola and cigarette butt infested basement is to be considered a better player than the one who has some smarts or thinks outside the box.

    Time spent in game camping Nelebs Cloak, camping Shades of Lucubration, camping the Lab Director, camping Zuwadza, camping Dodga/Alvin, camping, camping, camping, camping is to be rewarded.

    To make sure that people are really 'impressed' by the fact that you are level 120 while they are only level 105 it must be mind-numbingly more tedious to get from 119 to 120 than it is from 104 to 105. Only the most moronic who can stand the exponential increase in number mindless MOB's that need to be killed as levels go up past 100 can be allowed the glory of a higher 'level'. And if someone figures out a way to kill those MOB's easier (oh, lets say by cooperating with the playerbase and equipping a better weapon) this must not be allowed.

    The social player must not have an advantage over the agoraphobe who is 'self-sufficient' and on his droning quest for the 'glory' of another 'level'.

    If going from level 120 to 121 were just as much fun as going from 49 to 50 then people would enjoy the entire game from 1-200. Hell, they'd probably do it 8 times over with different characters. This makes sense you see? And as we know, you can't have that in Anarchy Online.

    They want to weed out us folks who don't have the 'skills' to mindless drudge through an ever-increasing quantity of mindless monsters to get our next 'level' or the 'guts' to stand up to the 'challenges' of going from level 149 to 150. They're doing a good job of that.
    This post was so great, I just had to quote it=)

    I remember beeing bout lvl 50 once, my equippment sucked,my skills sucked, I was average, a n00b, but hell it was fun=)
    As I progressed towards 100, I found I had to really get inovative to keep my pace, until I ended up with the best equippment it was possible to overequipp, and got wise in the way of skills.
    Patch after patch took out any chance to "relax" on overequipping & extra stuff more and more away..

    Now at lvl 150ish, I can solo with a breeze(slower than teaming of course), but I have many gadgets & machincegun turrets mounted I cant walk down the street without fearing toppling over.
    And I`m sure I will make/invent/aqquire new gadgets(ways) to not be hard pressed by any of this,but the poor "casual" player who want some fun without all the "going to the dungeon of doom for that little item that will possibly keep him alive", will be hit harder, and it was those who screamed for this in the first place,was it not?

    Well, enjoy suckers, enjoy =)
    Hermy
    Shadelore
    Retired.

  19. #219
    Originally posted by Kuroshio


    "lazy"? "ignorant"? "diligent"?

    Hmm....How do you say "Horsecrap!"? Oh yeah...Horsecrap!

    Let's define "diligent", shall we. Maybe the first 2 or 3 agents that discovered how to effectively OE themselves into their rifle or the soldiers that figured out what buffs/implants were needed to get the ql 200 Novaflow into their hands at xxx level were diligent. Then a lot of people followed suit through various guides written all over the place, help through their guild whose members had already done it, etc. OE is no longer innovation. It's carbon copying.
    Sure. . . now let's define "lazy" or "ignorant" : Anyone who has the ability to overequip to make their character the strongest that it can be, but don't. They are the ones that are saying things like:

    "this patch is super-swell Gaute. . . thank you oh so much. Funcom really listens to its players"


    This of course doesn't apply to MA's or NT's. . . I can see why an OE patch will be a good thing for them, since they are unable to overequip their main forms of damage.

  20. #220
    Last Posted by Asmoden
    I've been saying for a LONG time that NT's need to be fixed. But every time I see someone talk like this I regret even bothering to try to help out.
    Yes we have had many breaks and throughout it all nothing has ever been done. This patch recognizably is the first patch that works towards implementing a balance. While it is certainly not the BEST patch, it is also an attempt towards neutralizing many problems.

    Last Posted by Asmoden
    Your class is broken, something needs to be done about how your nanos work as far as debuffing and overequipping.
    Our nanos do not need to be fixed according to debuffing but rather the class line of buffs need to be moved from the MP to the NT in regards to Infuse and Mocham's. Masteries should be accessible by both NTs and MPs. Infuse and Mocham's should have always been in the hands of the NT as we are the masters of nanobots.

    Last Posted by Asmoden
    You class won't be any less broken by being an ass and pushing for everyone else to get screwed.
    I'm not pushing for everyone to get screwed. As far as I'm concerned no one got screwed in the upcoming patch. It is just more balanced and people are now feeling the difficulties that NTs have felt all along. The balance in itself is justified. There is no screwing going on at all.

    As for my quaint responses and incredulity at people complaining at something they've yet to test or see first hand, well, *coughs* - too bad.

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