Overequipping and the IP reset: A follow-up

[Ditka]

This weapon thing is a SERIOUS issue and needs REAL OFFICAL feedback.

A LOT of the weapons in the game have low tertiary skill requirments. Many of the good ones, that take a LOT of IP to equip, even have quadinary requirments. These reqs are usually blue to dark blue for most classes, and as such, they only get the points needed to equip the item.

A level 60 trader (or equiv mob) should not be able to debuff a lvl 100 player into ZERO PERCENT weapons damage.

EVER.

Lets not even discuss that they shouldn't be able to debuff you past, at most 50%, being 50% of your level (i.e. its callled game ballance FC, there are theories behind it, hire someone who understands it),

The first time I run into a mob, a mob who is yellow to me, who will give me 3-6K of the ~650K I need to level, who has 6-9K HP, who in one second debuffs my weapon into being unable to do damage, the first time that happens, I freeze my account.

I'll wait one patch before canceling.

I can understand that FC thinks we're leveling too fast.

I think I'm leveling too fast.

But, if the risk vs reward isn't worthdoing, then why play?

People will not pay $/month to feel constantly fustrated.
You need to change the ratio on secondary skills or (better yet) ignore them completely. You need to tone down the NPC HPs.
Failure to do both of these will cause serious player population problems. PLEASE don't screw this up, I LIKE this game.

[Nikki.]

hmmmmmmmmmm.....
Look at it this way, the patch cant be too bad if there are no vets posting their concerns here.

Engies worried about getting deprived by a trader and making their pet worthless is just silly. Has anyone of you heard of the common and accpeted PvP tactic for pets users??? That being rooting the pet making it ineffective. Either way you look at it your pet is screwed it was screwed before and will still be screwed if it is rooted.

Basing concerns about a patch on wether duals will be balanced across all combinations of players is silly. Dont you know duals will be the death of this game. If you want PvP then make it a war like the story states. Not some medievil adaptation of personal combat. Not to mention there is only ganking going on now so how can there really be any PvP.

Hey if you want to make your character a PvP machine then go ahead. You are limiting your play by doing that. Heck go ahead and do it Most people do PvM anyways and say screw PvP. Not like you will be able to get huge bonuses at high levels anyways. Heck doesnt stop anyone else from doing the same as you they just get stuck in the PvP mode. no biggie either way.

All this patch will do is layout a template for gameplay that more evenly distributes what is to be expected at each level. Meaning that low level players wont be expected to spend a week figuring out how to overequip everything so they can level at a decent rate. This really wont effect high level play much besides the fact we cant resist debuffs even with maxxed out skills.

I do think MoBs health should be reduced. I mean really its better to error in favor of the player rather than the game. If we get a couple more levels than expected then big deal, not like it cant be readjusted in the next patch or even an emergency patch. Too bad it only seems they ever reduce NPC type mobs rather than all of them and when Mobs get buffed all of them do which is why Critter type mobs are usually so much tougher to kill. They just keep getting HPs added and never taken off in the balances.

Anyways take the time and think about all aspects. Most times we over react without thinking how likely the scenerio is in everday gameplay.

[Bionitrous]

You can knock a quarter of the damage off of this level 100 item:

http://antiguardians.org/itemdb.php?&cmd=view&id=122914

with this nanoformula you can probably do by level 12:

http://antiguardians.org/itemdb.php?...ano=1&id=26399

(Yeah, I'm two points of debuff off. Through a Strength or Stamina debuff in there to finish off the job.)


The system is broken. The proposed changes are flawed. The fixes are haphazard, not well though-out, inelegant, and a mockery to the game-design and computer programming professions.

Gaute is showing his paying customers disrespect by not taking the high road and offering a PROPER fix that makes sense. Whether you support the changes or not, you are being disrespected by the lack of effort put into putting forth a PROFESSIONAL and SENSIBLE approach to making Character Skill Level matter more than Item Quality Level.

I'm just sorry that more of you players are not able to see the wool being pulled over your eyes, I'm really saddened to know these foaming at the mouth dogs starving for a bone are my peers and are so blinded they'll snap at anything, even a poisoned bone.

[________Deljin Blaed]

Gaute said that you only need ONE skill to drop below the 20% mark to get the decrease in effectiveness...my question is if the other skill (in his example with fling and pistol) drops below the first 20% mark will this double the the decrease (50%) or will it just stay at 25% until one of the skills drops below 40%. I have no idea if my question makes sense so if no one can understand it cause it's written poorly please tell me and I will try to redo it and make it more clear in another post.

[____________Sephrath]

Well this will basically kill pet classes with the 20% OE rule on pets. You are very incorrect in thinking that since our pets tank they draw the debuffs and aggro. I can stay back at least one room in missions send my pet in and I still draw aggro. So now what for us? We go in send the pet to attack the trader for instance then when he runs Ransack and Deprive on us we just sit in the mission watching the nanos time down till our pet will listen to us again?

I could go on with this idea and point... such as Muscle Atrophy and armor becoming useless but now I have another point....

YOu say NCUs and belts won't be changed because having the high NCU space makes teams more enjoyable for buffs. So its ok that level 1 chars used the Psychology bug and got on 6 slots belts which helped them overequip Implants armour and weapons.. thats ok you say because the high NCUs makes the game more enjoyable... Well so does having my pet that I had no problem casting on my own in the first place listen to me just because I got some trader to debuff me.

[Ravenkick]

It's so obvious Funcom doesn't listen to all players. If so, make a game anouncement for a "vote" on this patch. Let's see then how it turns out. 1 per account allowed.

Gaute needs to take a gun profession and play it! Only do the 20% max OE, and see how much fun it is. This game is built around OE! And I'm speaking about legal OE. Player buffs, implants, required NCU's to allow those buffs, etc. Jeez! Play your own game with your own made up character, not just what you can pull off the server and has taken months and possibly thousands of hours of play time of Veteran players to get to that point!

Doesn't matter. This patch is going through. Heed the warnings, FC. I'll do what i've always done. Play my MP. I started a Fixer, but now why play him? Congrats on a job well done, no where was the issues of OE truly addressed as far as I'm concerned. Or what would truly be funny is if you introduced a new round of bugs with this patch, especially since there are tons of them now and you're more concerned about whether I can get a Riot Control Buff and a 132 Wrangle to get a better Weapon equipted. So very sad.....

[_____________Crymcyn]

Originally posted by grahamX0r
This weapon thing is a SERIOUS issue and needs REAL OFFICAL feedback.

A LOT of the weapons in the game have low tertiary skill requirments. Many of the good ones, that take a LOT of IP to equip, even have quadinary requirments. These reqs are usually blue to dark blue for most classes, and as such, they only get the points needed to equip the item.

A level 60 trader (or equiv mob) should not be able to debuff a lvl 100 player into ZERO PERCENT weapons damage.

Has anyone bothered to take into account that most of the secondary, tertiary, quadinary requirements can't be debuffed by Traders (any more so than someone else with, for example, burst inexperience)? Special attacks aren't effected by the trader debuffs.

[_____________Asmodan]

2: Gaute assumes that you have all skills that your weapon of choise depends on either maxed, or at least on the same level. This means that the skill with the highest requirement (like 2HE) will be the most vurnerable to debuffs. If you let any other skill trail behind, and become lower than the rest, of course that one will be vurnerable too, but I don't see the fault in that.

Actually you have that backwards, the skill with the lowest requirement will be the one most vulnerable to debuffs.

I've spelled it out in about three posts now:

Weapon X
Requires:
400 Waste Time Skill
200 Pointless Argument

Your character has:
410 Waste Time
200 Pointless Argument

You are well within the 80% and therefore function at 100%.

You get hit by a Nanowiggly debuff called Real Life Woes that lowers both attack skills by 80 points.

This will lower your Waste Time skill to 330, still within 80% so it has no effect as far as over equipping goes.

This will also lower your Pointless Arguement skill to 120, which puts you at 60% requirements, meaning you will now do:

50% less damage!!

Since the requirement is lower, and that is the number the percentage is based off of, the break points are closer together. That means that debuffs are more effective on smaller requirements because they debuff a higher percentage of the skill.

[Ditka]

Originally posted by Crymcyn


Has anyone bothered to take into account that most of the secondary, tertiary, quadinary requirements can't be debuffed by Traders (any more so than someone else with, for example, burst inexperience)? Special attacks aren't effected by the trader debuffs.

Ranged energy and heavy weapons are two of the most common tertiary reqs. Don't refute w/o doing your research.

[_____________Asmodan]

Originally posted by Deljin Blaed
Gaute said that you only need ONE skill to drop below the 20% mark to get the decrease in effectiveness...my question is if the other skill (in his example with fling and pistol) drops below the first 20% mark will this double the the decrease (50%) or will it just stay at 25% until one of the skills drops below 40%. I have no idea if my question makes sense so if no one can understand it cause it's written poorly please tell me and I will try to redo it and make it more clear in another post.

His notes state that the reduction is bases soley on the 'most overequipped requirement'.

Meaning if you are only at 79% of the pistol requirement, but at 59% of the ranged energy requirement on a gun you will treat the whole thing as if you are at 59% requirements (41% overequipped, -50% damage).

See above my post above for why this royally sucks.

[Bionitrous]

The example I gave above shows that ANY Support Beam can be knocked into -25% damage by the simple use of Dimache Incompetence.

The damage reduction is on ALL damage done with the beam. The guy got his Dimache debuffed, NOT his 2HB. He should be doing less DIMACHE damage when he attempts that move NOT less 2HB damage for which he might very well have three times the required skill. This makes NO SENSE.

There are plenty of secondary skills that ARE debuffed by a Trader. Don't dare go there. Shotgun, Pistol, Grenade, Heavy Weapons, Ranged Energy, Assault Rifle, MG/SMG all appear very OFTEN as lower requirements on popular weapons. If a skill provides as little as 10% to a weapons attack rating, then why should its debuff provide any more than 10% of the 25% (for example) for a net -2.5%?

The proposed changes are a childish attempt to address a real issue. The modifications from the first article several months ago are so trivial and minor, that I wonder if the person in charge of this extremely game affecting change was not on vacation on some tropical island for the last two months.

This is not something to toy around with. Offering these simple bandaids to cover a deeper issue can only lead to less enjoyment of the game due in no small part to a doubtless myriad of unforseen 'issues'.

Look beyond what you 'want' as a result of the changes. You'll find it's the same thing for the most part that I want. Look at how they plan on getting there and you'll see how utterly flawed an approach it is and how badly it will affect the game for anyone except those with hours and hours to play or a strong guild behind them. Not to mention the areas where it's just plain 'broken'.

[megaram]

Will dual wielding be checked on weopons as well? Didn't see any mention on that....

Also how will I be able to see what the resulting stats of my armour are if my stats fall below the original requirments to put it on?

-Mega

[__________WGMelchior]

Deljin Blaed, I kind of stated it in my post above, but I might have added it after your post.

The only penalty is the one given from your most lacking skill.

If you lack 20% of the pistol skill, you get a 25% penalty.

If you lack 20% on the pistol, fling and ranged energy, you still get a 25% penalty.

If you lack 60% on pistol, and 20% on fling and ranged energy, you get the 75% penalty.

[_______________Cokoo]

I think we need a clear official answer from FC about how nano resist is working. Dont only tell us that it works as intended. We need more details. For example, if a lv100 trader fight a lv150 professions with maxed nano resists, what is the chance of his opponent resist traders hostile nano.
Under the new rules, nano resist has become one of the top defense skills players needed for both pvp and pvm. In my own exprience, I am lv150+ engineer and i maxed my nano resists and implanted, but I never resist a damn thing even a lv80 agent can root me. In 50% mission, I never resist any hostile programs.
Over all, if FC didnt not clearify this issue I dont even want to bother to talk any further about this new OE patch.

[__________WGMelchior]

Bionitrous, if the player doesn't raise his Dimach a point above the required Dimach, then of course that skill would be vurnerable to debuffs. But, he can quite easily raise Dimach 20 points more, and then that debuff wouldn't even touch him.



Multi-wield is counted just the same as any other requirements. It's clearly stated on the weapon, so it is easy to check.


And to check your new AC rating:

1: Take the amount of AC your armour gives now.

2: Multiply that by 0.75 if you are 20% OE, 0.5 if you are 40%, 0.25 if you are 60%.

[_____________Asmodan]

Originally posted by Bionitrous
Look beyond what you 'want' as a result of the changes. You'll find it's the same thing for the most part that I want. Look at how they plan on getting there and you'll see how utterly flawed an approach it is and how badly it will affect the game for anyone except those with hours and hours to play or a strong guild behind them. Not to mention the areas where it's just plain 'broken'.

Amen brother!

So many people are quick to say 'omg stfu u r just mad you cant use ur ql200 rilfe at level 2 now twink' instead of examining what's really going on.

I'm all for doing something to resolve extreme over equipping, but the current incarnation of this so called fix is extremely flawed.

[______Chief Engineer]

Heh nano resist??....there are none its a bugged system...


I was rooted 4x by a level 10ish mob when I was level 90 and my nano resist was maxed for my level at the time.

[_____________Asmodan]

Dual wield should be a non issue, there aren't any buffs or debuffs for it out there. The only way you would not meet the requirement is if you were to remove your dual wield implants after equipping.

[_________________Zuh]

I am depressive today

FC will maybe kill AO and beside that the majority of players don't know the game and want to talk about it on forums... So stupid


I feel no one will pay attention to what I am writting anyway. I support changes in OEing. I do not support 14.2 as it is now.


14.2 OE is completly stupid.

IPR system is good. People can now use different type of weapons through their levels.

However IPR should NOT allow to reset abilities.



Okay here I stated my thought in a few sentences. I could write more later on. I wrote a post explaining how I see an OE changes page 79 of the big thread. No one really payed attention.

Sad

[______Chief Engineer]

Zuh....does the word prozac mean anything to you? hehe