Over-equipping - here we go....

[____________jodocast]

Originally posted by Lilith


Hold on a second there, where did I say that exploits were ok?

You can have tons of NCU, you can get buffs that will give you the possibility to equip stuff of higher level. That didnt change as far as I know. The only difference is that when your skill doesnt reach at least 80% of the requirement, you will now lose 25% of result per step of 20%.

So as long as you have friends to help constantly buff you nothing will change.

For my part I think that when that patch goes live, every item on yourself should be unequipped. Not only for the IP reallocation.

If you never used people to help you level, the patch will not affect you. Why do you whine? From what you say you're totally self buffed. And an engineer self buffed can still make decent implants, and cast a red pet, and would still be able to solo. The main difference in solo will be the level of mobs you will be able to solo.

for ncu : lot of ncu = u can put high ql implants as well
i dont use ppl to hunt or lvl but i pay to have buff only !
so yes it will affect me = low bot ql

[_____________Morgoth]

2001-07-07 03:23:41 UTC
Account status Open until 2002-04-06
Subscription is cancelled

Yours


Lifedrain
( Retired )General of Security
Omni Shadow Ops

[Drabin]

CZ:

This thread has got to be the most exagerated huff n puff thread in existence of AO.

The people that are complaining here haven't even tried the new system out and frankly it's not debatable because it isn't even on test yet. I think you put it best when you said that this isn't even in the works for another 2 to 4 weeks anyways. Maybe just maybe - a few people will just simmer down and stop preaching Armegeddon and Ragnarok to us.

Originally posted by Gaute Godager

10. Won't one de-buff completely kill pet users?

A de-buff will affect the pet professions hard, yes, but it will also hit the direct-damage dealing nano-program and weapon users. so far, if a Trader de-buffs the Nano-Technician (NT), the NT should run for the exit or grid entrance. Now this is also true for some of the pet professions.

Amen to you brother!!

[_______________Solus]

Mark me down as for for patch 14.2.

And I congratulate Funcom for addresssing this issue and for handling it in the manner that they are.

Extra congratulations go to Cz for his heroic efforts to keep on top of this thread....this is the way all issues and problems should be handled. We haven't heard the results of our feed back, which I hope everyone understands is of the sheer volume of our response and the time it takes to do a useful reply, but we are absolutly certian you are listening and are addressing our concerns because of Cz's presence and posts on this thread.

Thank you again, FC, for the patch and for the way you are handling this thread.


Since it is and will be more necessary to have options available while in combat, I would like to make the following suggestions:

1. Can it be set so that we can see more than one set of 10 hot keys at the same time. This would make it easier for all professions to access the correct gear or nano when skills are diminished.

2. It seemes that the inventory shuffling has corrected to a large degree (my lockpick still strays at times). Have that "team" get to work on the nano program storage...I try to keep them in an order that make it easy for me to find what I am looking for, but they keep rearranging as inventory did.

3. Give us more than 10 sets of hot keys. I am using them as "favorite" nano storage bins for buffing for different situations and will be needing to do so more often. I do not use the favorite section of the nano porgram window because it takes the nano out of it's catagory which makes it hard to keep track of the nano line series for using downgraded versions.

Thanks again for your assistance.

Soluss

[_______Revolutionary]

Wow! Lots of people have weighed in here...and most of them are idiots...

Who cares if you're gonna quit...just quit and give your stuff away (can I have your stuff? ) and go on to another game that you're going to P&M about even worse.

FC did the right thing here...finally! And they did what the majority of people wanted, not the minority, so guess what...get over it!

Way to go FC, you're restored about 10% of my faith in you.

[Rubirango]

With this patch you are rewarding Dumb-f**k ma's that take no brainpower at all to play bar implants. I mean it takes alot of math and brainwork to get very well twinked and I DESERVE to be rewarded by having superior fighting skills to some gimp MA who has does nothing.... basically you are attempting to dumb down the entire population of Rubi-ka so theyll buy some shiznat that you release like "Anarchy Online hats".


And also wtf is with charging for the full storyline book, we pay for the game we deserve the right to know the story behind our world. Ever heard of E-books

[________________Zaal]

Wow! Lots of people have weighed in here...and most of them are idiots...

Who cares if you're gonna quit...just quit and give your stuff away (can I have your stuff? ) and go on to another game that you're going to P&M about even worse.

FC did the right thing here...finally! And they did what the majority of people wanted, not the minority, so guess what...get over it!

Way to go FC, you're restored about 10% of my faith in you.

Just pointing out that what Revolutionary said here is OPINION. There is no way that Revolutionary can knwo if the majority of players want or don't wantt the patch.

It's my OPINION that most people don't even pay attention.

It's also my opinion that pet users are being hit more unfairly than weapon users. Once again I beleive Funcom is catering to the weapon crowd and shunning all other forms of various gameplay that AO once offered.

Whatever.

[____________Phelisha]

he may be right about the majority not wanting it. atleast on my tell list i have 37 ppl, 3 outa the 37 were for the patch, the other 34 were against it.
these are the kinds of numbers im seeing, but what about you?

[___________x-genesis]

QUOTE

A lot of people used stepping implants they normally wouldn't use.

There was a Surgery Clinic exploit that could boost your Treatment skill all the way to infinity. It made the Treatment requirement on implants negligible.

They wore special items that buffed their skills.

They received Wrangles and other high-level buffs affecting needed skills. Normally guild mates and "friends for hire" would supply these buffs.

Then, the character could squeeze in the needed weapon or summon the needed pet.

After that, all stepping implants were replaced with the normal implants. All buffs went away and stepping items were removed.

The result was a character fresh from the "over-equipping-doping-laboratory" with three or four times (at least on low levels) as high Quality Level a weapon as they could equip on their own! This was unpredictable and unbalanced, favouring veteran players with tons of money and friends.

END QUOTE

Minus the exploit, which im glad is gone, what you have described is basically what everyone has found to be THE FUN OF AO. Figuring out what implant, what item, what buff you need to use to arm something that might just give you a hair more edge against a mission full of LOWER LEVEL mobs that usually send you sqwaking to the exit like a frightened rollerat IS FUN. Believe me, AO IS fun, but for me, and many many others, this (what you see as a work-around cheat and the rest of us see as complexity and interest) is precisely what we liked about it. It was like a strategy game within an RPG. If you want to rid AO of this aspect, i say just put a lvl req on all items and be done with it. It'll making things simple...and boring. and many, if not most will quit. All that will be left are those without the desire to better their characters, likely casual players who do NOT make up the month-to-month bread-and-butter base of AO. Because im sorry but if you've felt this way all along you surely never told us. items and buffs and wrangles that up skills and weapons/armor that require those skills IMPLICTLY tell us that you not only endorse doing this but encourage us to. Telling us the opposite now seems, frankly...weird.

[____________Ejeckted]

I am just really disappointed in my fellow gamers.

It's frustrating that so many of you can't see the
difference between being against THIS solution
versus being against ANY solution.

It's not a 'yes' or 'no' question.

You do have the option of being FOR a solution
to balance overequiping, and at the same time
being AGAINST this particular piece of nonsense.

These guys are supposed to be professionals,
and yet they offer us this garbage math..

It's no surprise that those against overequiping,
the ones who dont want to be bothered with math
in the first place, don't see how horrible this scheme is.

.. but it's too late now.
You cast your votes without considering alternatives.

and for that the whole game will suffer.

All of you selfish short-sighted people who post
"if u dont like it, quit!" really dont understand the economics.
Will AO fail? probably not. The game has built up a large enough
playerbase that it can now survive another mass of cancelations.
but it will definatly rival the 12.6 disaster in how it affects the
community. I was here the last time this happened. It sucked.
Funcom had to let go of many of its developers.
(the really smart creative guys who built this game)
subscriptions = money = salarys = content and bugfixes.
Why are there no more movies? because Funcom couldn't
afford to produce them. Why are these silly little bugs like
green stomachs on female flowers tech armor still here?
Why do profession-fixes and promised features take so long?
because Funcom doesn't have the resources to devote.

People quitting affects you.

It's regretable that so many of you couldn't listen with
an open mind to the concerns of other palyers who
- have a different playstyle than you
- have been learning this game longer than you
and that you just swallow the first thing FC spits out
like it's the word of god. Gaute is not holy or infallible.
He has made a mistake here.

but as usual, masses of eager desperate people who are
afraid of what they dont understand accept everything blindy
and view any opposition to their arbitrary point of view
as sinners who should be punished.

[Megabio2]

Originally posted by Gokudan


lol, eg, Firstbuild on RK2
let me see, a lvl 12 with a QL 105 gun? Can take out a guy that was orange to me while FB was grey?

soz, FB if u read this, but it was a laugh

FFS, it was a QL 109 shotty. Get it through your thick headed skull.. gee wiz.
~Chris

[____________Ejeckted]

Hello Again

so I've been tinkering with formulas and
I've got an even better one than my first.

infact, it's perfect.

it's better because
- there are no 'sweet spots' where a lowerQL is temporarily better
- it uses Funcoms measurement of overequiped
(using a weapon twice your skil level =50% OE)

take a look!


50% OE = 46% total damage reduction
49% OE = 45% total damage reduction
48% OE = 44% total damage reduction
47% OE = 43% total damage reduction
46% OE = 42% total damage reduction
45% OE = 41% total damage reduction
44% OE = 40% total damage reduction
43% OE = 39% total damage reduction
42% OE = 38% total damage reduction
41% OE = 37% total damage reduction
40% OE = 36% total damage reduction
...
..
[sniped for length - same pattern]
..
...
20% OE = 16% total damage reduction
19% OE = 15% total damage reduction
18% OE = 14% total damage reduction
17% OE = 13% total damage reduction
16% OE = 12% total damage reduction
15% OE = 11% total damage reduction
14% OE = 10% total damage reduction
13% OE = 9% total damage reduction
12% OE = 8% total damage reduction
11% OE = 7% total damage reduction
10% OE = 6% total damage reduction
9% OE = 5% total damage reduction
8% OE = 4% total damage reduction
7% OE = 3% total damage reduction
6% OE = 3% total damage reduction
5% OE = 2% total damage reduction
4% OE = 2% total damage reduction
3% OE = 1% total damage reduction
2% OE = 0% total damage reduction
1% OE = 0% total damage reduction


now for some real math using my scale.
i will give 2 examples.

the first is a level77 adventurer using a flamethrower.
(i picked this weapon because my girlfriends adv uses one)
with QL110 implants and general buffs, this adventurer
will be able to self-equip a QL100 flamethrower.

with +60 assault rifle mastery and a +132 wrangle on top
of that, she will be able to equip a QL140.

here are the stats:

---------------------------------------------------------

QL 100 Flamethrower

Damage 7-197 (105)
Requirements assault rifle 507

---------------------------------------------------------

QL 140 Flamethrower

Damage 9-267 (143)
Requirements assault rifle 709

---------------------------------------------------------

now compare the damage with my new formula.
for the sake of these equations,
these are MAX damage non-critical hits.

---------------------------------------------------------

with QL100

(1 + (500 / 400 =1.25)=2.25) * (197)
= 443 -200(2000AC) = 243

---------------------------------------------------------

with QL140

(1 + (500 / 400 = 1.25) = 2.25) * (267 -20%[53] = 214)
= 482 -200(2000AC) = 282

---------------------------------------------------------

summary:
using an overequiped QL140 (that requires the soldier
nano assault rifle mastery and a traders +132 wrangle)
vs a same-skill self-equiped QL100 results in +39
points of extra damage. (that's +19 in PvP)



now for the second example.

a level80ish agent with a QL200 rifle.
everyone knows this is possible.

so lets go straight to the stats:

---------------------------------------------------------


QL 100 Stigma Rifle
Damage 7-172 (56)

Requirements rifle 430
aimed shot 216

---------------------------------------------------------

QL 200 Premium Stigma Rifle
Damage 12-326 (101)

Requirements rifle 859
aimed shot 430

---------------------------------------------------------

now this agent has a base of 430 skill,
conveniently exactly enough for a QL100 stigma.

lets play with the numbers...

---------------------------------------------------------

with QL100

(1 + (430 / 400 = 1.075) = 2.075) * (172)
= 357 -250(2500AC) = 107

---------------------------------------------------------

with QL200

(1 + (430 / 400 = 1.075) = 2.075) * (326-46%[150]=176)
= 365 -250(2500AC) =115

---------------------------------------------------------

summary:
with a rifle literally twice his skill-level,
this agent will be hitting for 8 points
of extra damage. that's 4 points in PvP.

( now noone should tell me that's too much )


so what do you think all?
(am i a genius?)

if you support this solution, please bump the thread about it here.
http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...threadid=16027

[________________Zaal]

Scumbug

You forgot that engies get totally shut down.

Pft.

[_______________Tadgh]

Well I have this to say about the whole ordeal, I'm against uber OE however I am also against AO response to the issue scumbugs formula seems to be much more rational in response unlike some other posts he has :-p I'm not sure who put up the post about ruining AO economy and all but I also agree that is going to be a huge problem that will result if this patch goes through how it has been proposed. but like CZ stated it is going to be a while before it's online so lets keep the rational thoughts, comments, suggestion, coming and then implement scumbugs formula unless 1 better comes up.


"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
- Galileo Galilei

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Tadgh
Well I have this to say about the whole ordeal, I'm against uber OE however I am also against AO response to the issue scumbugs formula seems to be much more rational in response unlike some other posts he has :-p I'm not sure who put up the post about ruining AO economy and all but I also agree that is going to be a huge problem that will result if this patch goes through how it has been proposed. but like CZ stated it is going to be a while before it's online so lets keep the rational thoughts, comments, suggestion, coming and then implement scumbugs formula unless 1 better comes up.


"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
- Galileo Galilei

Scumbug's solution assumes a lot I'm not willing to take for granted. As anyone that has wielded a weapon for more than a hour can see, all damage cannot be accounted for according to the weapon's description. Wielding a ql 50 vektor with a damage range of 6-160(267) (I don't have the *exact* numbers anymore but those are really close) I did damage within the range of 15-897.

Scumbug doesn't have all the variables and functions that determine chance to hit or damage dealt that the programmers have. For all we know, his solution might make it so players never hit or always hit.

[____________Ejeckted]

Originally posted by Kuroshio

Scumbug doesn't have all the variables and functions that determine chance to hit or damage dealt that the programmers have. For all we know, his solution might make it so players never hit or always hit.

that is inaccurate. pay attention to the math.
we are talking strictly damage formula here.
doesn't effect evades, AGG/DEF, AMS/DMS.
i am changing exactly what Funcom is changing
in the same place Funcom is changing it.
the only difference is my scale makes sense.

this is the problem. most players dont even understand
how the game works. funcom has been reluctant to
educate it's playerbase and this is what they get for it.

weapon stats are:
minimumdamage-maximumdamage(criticalhit)

evades, AGG/DEF, AMS/DMS all influence the diceroll
regarding where within minimumdamage-maximumdamage
will fall and if the +criticalhit bonus will be added.

my scale (and funcoms scale) all happen after
this has been determined.
this is the number that is being reduced by a scale.

once this number has been determined it is then
multiplied in relation to your ATK.
this is why all weapons hit for more than the damage listed.
the weapon itself is only part of the equation.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Scumbug


that is inaccurate. pay attention to the math.
we are talking strictly damage formula here.
doesn't effect evades, AGG/DEF, AMS/DMS.
i am changing exactly what Funcom is changing
in the same place Funcom is changing it.
the only difference is my scale makes sense.

this is the problem. most players dont even understand
how the game works. funcom has been reluctant to
educate it's playerbase and this is what they get for it.

weapon stats are:
minimumdamage-maximumdamage(criticalhit)

evades, AGG/DEF, AMS/DMS all influence the diceroll
regarding where within minimumdamage-maximumdamage
will fall and if the +criticalhit bonus will be added.

my scale (and funcoms scale) all happen after
this has been determined.
this is the number that is being reduced by a scale.

once this number has been determined it is then
multiplied in relation to your ATK.
this is why all weapons hit for more than the damage listed.
the weapon itself is only part of the equation.

When your math explains how a weapon that advertises a max damage in the 300s can do max damage of around 900, then I'll believe you know enough about what happens behind the scenes to speculate about a better way.

[____________Ejeckted]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


When your math explains how a weapon that advertises a max damage in the 300s can do max damage of around 900, then I'll believe you know enough about what happens behind the scenes to speculate about a better way.

I just explained that.
What part of multiply dont you understand?

this is the formula.

(1 + (ATK / 400)) * (Damage + Crit if any)
= damage total +added damage modifiers [like rings]
-minus armor = damage dealt.


ATK is your current skill (goes up if buffs are active).

so a weapon that advertises max damage of 300
can do 900 in a couple of ways.

lets make up some stats for your example weapon.
33-300(150)


i'll show you both.

first, say the player has a ATK of 800.
he gets a good diceroll and scores for max damage
but doesnt score a critical hit bonus.

(1 + (800 / 400=2) =3) * (300) = 900


or perhaps it was a lower level player scoring a crit.
this player has an ATK of 400.
he hits for max damage + scores a critical hit.

(1 + (400 / 400=1) =2) * (300 + 150 = 450) = 900

understand now?

[____________Phelisha]

i find scumbags formula to be by far easier to understand.

[_________________Zuh]

I just wanted to make some clarifications to make people against or pro 14.2 think twice.


25% malus every 20% OE means you will have some weapon with higher skill requiered doing less damage than a weapon with lower skill needed. This is clealry unacceptable : any player can one time equip a weapon that is 21% OEed without beeing an hardcore OEer. Especially at low levels.

So you will have to make calculation to know what weapon you can use without malus. This is very unacceptable. Casual gamer will have to make calculations where he don't have currently.


YOU CANNOT DEAL MORE DAMGE WHEN YOU ARE OE.

After 20% OE, it is just a loop between 100% damage and 125% damage.


So 14.2 OE rules will have one major consequence on gameplay. Please consider this before complaining, because I am upset of people whining about everything and anything.

Your weapon will no more be an important factor for your character. You will just have to stay within the 125% skill requiered. By doing so, every other skill becomes important. Nano program will become far more important for any class. This allow FC to balance class and mobs, no more agent with a ql200 stigma at level 80 so they can focus on agent specific abilities to balance.

So much of you were crying their specific class abilities were undervalued. Now this will change and that's good.


However I am against these rules. Why ? Because the maths involved are stupid, the damage deal by your weapon becomes irrational.

IF THEY STILL WANT TO MAKE THESE KIND OF RULES, THEY HAVE ANOTHER OPTION.

Make a weapon power decrease when you go past 20% OE. SO if you are 20% OE, you would deal slightly less damage than if you were 19% OE. A 39% OE gun would not be better than a 30% gun, and a 20% OE gun would not be worste than a 5% OE gun. Their current system is crazy, nothing is logical.

THIS IS FAR MORE LOGICAL AND WILL HAVE THE SAME EFFECT ON GAMEPLAY.

People would just be glad of these rules, unlike now.


Cz please can you answer ?

This solution stay in the same line than yours, is not harder to code than yours, is far more coherent and will make people far more happier. Please answer.


The same goes for armor.

As for pet users, why not make a pet not respons from time to time instead of just shutting down ? Leave any non-combat ability like walking work at 100%, and make the pet not response every time they use a combat related ability, like attacking or healing. So a player could still control the pet in any circumstances, but when fighting, the pet would not attack from time to time.

A big slayer droid use at level 100 would attack something like half of the time only. That's just an exemple of how it could work. I am not used enough to pet class to say precisely what probability a pet should have to balance the fact he is strongly OEed.


And for my part, not beeing able to OEed make AO loose freedom. Scumbug proposed a good scale for exemple. Why not follow this kind of rule ?