Over-equipping - here we go....

[Breaku]

Originally posted by Scumbug
Listen up Kiddies,

This is a leveling nerf disgusied as a balance issue.

Caps on equipment means character strength is based only on level.
Predictable character strength gives Funcom total control over
how fast each and every player levels. X hours = Y levels.

It's long been obvious that the original brilliant people behind AO
are no longer making the decisions. I believe they relinquished
control right back at release when the game was forced out too early.
The beancounters are now pulling the strings. These people view
onlineRPG customers as junkies, desperate for their next level,
and they will do anything to stretch that process out a few months more.
They don't care what's fun. They don't even play this game.

If you think MOBS will be changed in any dramatic way you're dreaming.
Just like they refused to lower their HP, or shorten highlevel missions,
or 'fix' long camptimes on quest and dungeon NPCs.
It's all about making everything take longer.

You 'casual' players who wanted this nerf so you could compete
with 'hardcore' players are in for a rude shock. You will find
yourselves trailing further and further behind anyone with
more freetime than yourself, and there will be nothing you can
do to catch up or compete. All this patch does is make the
monotonous practice of leveling take 4 times longer.
for newbies who dont understand: at just level 100+ you need
2,000,000XP to level and yellow mobs give 5,000ishXP.
The only way you can avoid having to solo 400yellows in a row
is by getting in a team and fighting reds. But reds will now
salughter everyone because you can't do anything to optmize
yourself; without overequiped armor you'll die in 3-4hits.
without overequiped weapons you wont make a dent in MOBS
with literally 20 times your HP. This isn't going to change.
They may scale back mobs enough so that everyone can now
survive highlevel greens/yellows, but not enough to compensate
for this massive reduction in player power vs exponentially
harder mobs.

Lots of people will argue with me now,
but I'm not interested in arguing it now.
Just wait, and hope I'm proven wrong.

Right on the money! ~ they may whine now about the OE's (i think they are lazy, or n00b, or a NT mainly), are gonna whine about how long it takes to kill one red, or how its impossible to solo.

What people don't realize is that the OE's in this game help u level faster when u team and such. its not just pvp. And you could do it yourself your just dam lazy/noob or you chose a nT (but even they can overequip shotties)

I Say you've just taken out one of my favorite things in the game, and now just made it one game where everyone has the same "ql" armor, same "ql" guns. and basically mario and luigi running around jumping on peoples heads for funs

Good job, this game is becoming more and more kiddie like. I don't OE anymore, it won't affect me much. but im just saddend to see that FC is making a go on this, and that no longer will anyone "new" get to master OE like i once did.

GOOD post scumbag. right on the money <---- as fc would say!

BREAKU- level 133 apprentice enf
cubex - level 83 rookie adv (retired)
kiwee - level 38 mp (tokenfarmer)
Einstin3 - level 50 doc (retired)
and a bunch of lowbies

[_________________Zuh]

I have read the 50 new pages for me. Clearly, my eyes are still fine, you need to change your screen Cz ; )

To present myself to those who don't know me already, I am casual / hardcore player. What does it means ; ) ? Some month I will play 8 hours per day and do other things about the game, some month (like this one) I play 2 hours a week max. I have build up a Fixer still mid level in a month and have deleted all my others char. Now my Fixer took one level in 5 weeks and I was very surprised of it : ). Didn't saw the XP bar was full. I just say that so my opinions can be considered in my case. I was also a big poster in Fixer forum when I was in a hardcore player period of time and I have scared some of us ; ).

I do intend to play AO for a long time and know already well the game.

Someone wrote a short post in french. To sum up he said FC was doing this patch only to make more money and players following where naive dumb guys ; ). Just so everyone can understand (Cz inclued).



Beside that, I have first to say I am against this patch 14.2 (Drabin said I am pro, I am not). Drabin had a very contestable attitude to make a pool like he did (I contest it for exemple, so it is in fact contestable). There is no common point between a pool and what you did.

I have to agree and support Scumbug. Please listen all to what he said.

Also I was very upset while reading of all the people who posted about issues of AO gameplay when they know nothing really. No need to say "I have done a total of 100 levels with all my char" or "I have the right to speak as much as you" to add value to your post. You just confort yourself in your opinion. Sad.


To sum up I still don't understand why FC have choosed a so bad system to change OE..

OE is part of the game, and it is a very good part. I can see only 2 problems :

1 Some class can't OE for their primary damage output, like NT or MA.

2 OE make a huge gap between people who can / know and people who don't. I am convince it is fair to be better when you know more and have play more but here we have a very large gap.


But OE is AO, and simply delete OE is :

1 Very weak way to deal with such a problem. As a programer and game designer I would be ashame to do so.

2 AO becomes just another mmorpg, only a SF version. To bad.


So I proposed a gradual system of OE malus. No one discussed it, no one saw it it seems (I posted it 2 or 3 times). The only other I saw proposing a similar system is Scumbug. I said to listen to him ; ).


Such a system is good in every way. OEers will still recieve an advantage of OE, and even better, the more they will OE, the harder it will be to increase their damage / AC... BUT they won't be anymore so god-like compare to a non-OEer.

Cz please tell me in what such a system would be bad ?? I am sure everybody would like it, would it be OEers or non-OEers.


Or maybe you prefer a system of a down

[_________________Zuh]

I saw Drabin don't like people who post again their old post and as I don't appreciate much what I read of this guy on this forum, here we go : ) :


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Am I a ghost here ?


No one commented my posts. I sum up what I said in a post only 8 or 9 pages ago, not to hard to find out ; ).



OE is a good part of the game. There are however 2 major issues with it :

Some classes cannot overequip for their main damage output. Reasons can be they are a casting class like NTs, so can't overequip nanos, second reason can be that their is a lack of nanos that allow overequip like the smgs for Fixer or a wierd weapon like bow. Also MA cannot OE their fists : ).

AR is underpowered so the main factor for your damage output is still your weapon's ql. Because casting class as well as pet class don't use AR as primary factor.


These issues are the main problem to balance the game.

To deal with it and balance the whole game more easily, and still keep the current system of value, I proposed to work on a system based on progressive malus when you don't match the requiered skill.

So a guy OEed like hell wouldn't be so uber like now compare to a guy who just self buffed in his stuff, but the OEed guy would still be rewarded for his effort. I don't know if you get my point.


So here again is my posts everybody seems to have ignored.

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I am all for better rules concerning weapon, armor and some other use (you should not be able to use so easily 80 level above equipement).

But I hope you will do it so the rules will still be logical and coherent with themself.


MY POINT DE VUE

A more regular way of reducing weapon efficiency. Reduce damage by 0.9% per % of skill requierement. Reduce also every positive effect of a weapon by same rating (like skill bonus) if this bonus goes up with level. Also add a 0.1% per % of skill requierement to all negative effect, like the shoot/recharge time.

Same thing for armor, each % overequiped result in a -0.9% malus.

Don't make players loose control of their pet, they will cry to hell. Better make the pet not react to some order time to time. For exemple an "overequiped" pet would not strike from time to time in a battle. So they can still use a pet but sometimes the order is ignored. Same thing for anypet, a healing pet will not heal from time to time and so on. This bad control of the pet have to compensate they over power. So make the calculations yourself ; ).

Nanos are a harder subject. Having nanos not working at all when the skill is not requiered is crazy, as debuffs are too dangerous for them. After some thinking, the best way I see is to consider nanos as any other sort of weapon / armor... Reduce all the positive effects of each nano by 0.9% per % over requiered skill : damage, root/snare duration, healing, general duration, skill bonus, everything. Then add 0.1% to all negative effects : resistance, damage on caster, cripple or skills locks duration, time to cast/recharge, everything.


That say all for me, logical malus if you overequiped. No need to make hard calculation with a cap or malus every 20%, just that when you go over your current skills, then your weapon is just very slightly better than the one you should be able to use with your current skills. Same would go for armor, nano and everything else. Also note that a logarithmic curve would be better than a linear curve, as you would get even less bonus with very overequipped stuff.

Debuff question would also be solved, as you would be always able to use your usual equipement and nanos, they would just be less efficient.


Same goes for implants, not for the treatment skill needed but for the abilities needed. Treatment is used to equip implants, then ability is used to use implants. Like weapon or nano, each % you miss in the requiered ability make you loose 0.9% of the bonus.

NCU could be also considered like implants. The belt would have always the same effect (no overequip malus), and the NCU component would have a malus if you miss in computer literature requiered (less NCU).

Same goes for all other items, would it be a scope or a movement predictor.


Last word. A malus of 0.9% each % just over the requiered skill is certainly to straight. A nice curve would be much better, but not a simple "when you go over 20% then you loose 25%".



Sadly I am not a game designer : ) but maybe some of my thoughts could help...

Good luck and please don't make a mistake.

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To add level or titlecaps on weapons would be a big mistake, much more than actual article. Some weapons have very low requierements compare to other for same ql. Take MPS and MCS as exemple.

I don't think really that implementing gradual malus when you overequip would be that hard.

Let's try a little equation :

damage = baseDamage * ( neededSkill / playerSkill + sqrt ( ( neededSkill - playerSkill ) / neededSkill ) )


So you apply this formula to every bonus (and malus with a substraction instead of an addition) and you got your OE issue fixed.

Last problem is mobs power. They need to have same stat a good player could have, it means less health, less min damage, lower attack speed, a real nano pool, etc...

They need to be considerred as a player could be, and a good one. I understand that having more health allow longer play time and maybe more fun in groups, but having coherent mobs would be far better. If they are underpowered, because of their amount lower of health, then decrease XP we gain and make groups of 3 mobs.

I would like to see a robot builder with a pet, no insane min damage, real nano pool etc.. But I guess all of this expectations about mobs are pure fantasm ; )

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The equation I proposed could have a faster increasing curve, but I hope you got my point.

Please criticize this post (before it is lost again in the mass of replies).


Cz any (short) comment ? This can be possible to code and you just find it is a bad idea / This could be good but anyway you can't code that sort of thing.

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Now this forum begin to calm down maybe someone will read my post ?? I do not intend to have a perfect system here, Scumbug gave one closer of your actual 24.2 note so...

Just see the ideas ; ).


*Just have edit the formula cos it was completly false ; ). Hey, get tired some times...

[________________Unas]

Originally posted by Lilith


If I told anyone to go back to D2 I would mean it as an insult. But feel free to like that game, I just find it too basic: collect gear and gear and gear and gear... where's the character? under piles of junk... wait, there is no character, its a pile of junk

Sorry I was being too subtle for you there, that was sarcasm.

Unas

[Maxi]

Ok, yes there is a problem with people over equiping in the game, why?,well, you guys created traders with 132 wranglers, you guys created the implants, now i hear taking about is not good to use because is not fair? then why is part of the game, i know that there is a lot of people cheating and overusing the implants and wrangles in the game, the solution?

Create a lvl requirement to wear a weapon or armor in the weapon and armor, so a lvl 20 enforcer can use a lvl 100 weapon until he reach lvl 50, simple

The same with pets,a lvl 90 eng cant cast a lvl 150 slayerdroid until he reach lvl 130.

i hope this idea will help, since i think turning the game all the way around will create more bugs, exploits and may be people leaving the game, like what happen when the medusas became agro, Remember the name of the game is anarchy on line, so, keep it as a anarchy!

[megaram]

My opinion on the proposed changes (for those who care)

With Weopons I think the change is ok...

With Pets the change can be deadly... Especially in missions as mobs now roam by doors and detect when other mobs are dead or under attack.

With armour... As an NT this is the only area I can overequip that is affected (currently)... putting on some decent armour via buffs and temp implants.

Here are my complaints, moans and groans...

With my armour weakening with buffs ending and implants being removed... How will I know what the resulting stats will be? Will they be listed in RED when I SHIFT+RightCLick on the affected item? And will the change be dynamic.. example: I get lvl and use IP points to bring my scores within the 20%... Will the item be automatically fixed or do I have to remove and requip?

NT issue here... Let's say I get mega buffed to use item... As we NT's know we have limited NCU space at mid lvls (can't speak for high lvl NT's...but I'm sure it's the same issue) due to using cpu upgrades and recompilers (at least me) We can't rely on the trader or MP in the group to continually buff me as then I can't hold my own persoanl buffs therefore another NT nerf in disguise... (what we up to... 150 nerfs now?)

I hope the overequip patch gets alot of thinking done on it cause if not the reclaim terminals are gonna need some major maintenance in the near future cause they are gonna get overworked.

-Mega

[________________Veha]

I'm a new comer to AO having been playing Everquest for most of my MMRPG gaming life and I was SICK of newbies walking around with 60th (the highest level in EQ) level Equip because of a nice neighbor or this is my Alt. The whole idea behind EQ stat pumping was thru equipment and not thru IP points.

As soon as I saw that AO was IP based more so than equipment based I left EQ and and am now focusing my time in AO. The fact that low levels can't wear equipment do to the stat requirements made this a more pleasing game over EQ. (nm the fact the soloing aspects of AO)

Now I see people complaining about OE'ing and not OE'ing. If you want to OE and kill lvl 1000 mobs @ lvl 10 and reach that 200 level cap and twink your char to the utmost, all power to you. But there are those who focus on using their own abilities, w/o help from a trader or MP, to reach their utmost power for their level. THESE should be seen as the true game players IMO.

As to the patch, there shouldn't be a cap put on, but rather limit the grouping or limit the PVP'ing to people who OE and those who don't. Maybe you can use the same formula for detecting whether a char is OE or not and allow for those that are OE group and PVP themselves aside from those who aren't OE'ed.

My 2 credits.

Venny
55 Engi - orange pet trimmed to the max killing reddies

[Shandrahs]

I'm an NT... therefore you probably think this doesn't address me..

Not quite so, you see, the few professions that cannot OE, are in fact hurt by those who do it to extreme extentions...

As an NT you cannot OE the main DD weapon. You can of course do it inside the normal limits, implant your MC like hell, and get every buff you can to fire those NF a few levels higher than you...

You can also ask for a trader to wrangle some, so you can 'upload' this uber NF you just found... but once that wrangle is gone it's bye bye NF, see you until I have the level...
of course you can hire a pet trader to follow you around hehe and cast a wrangle every 3 minutes...

But still for those who are anti-OE, it's not even this extreme that's going to be implemented... You can even OE 20% of your base level... which gives still a pretty large set of options with which you can costumize your character...

Zuh and those others sugesting a more regular way of reducing the penalty for OE'ing, I do not agree with you. As incredible as it may seem I'm sticking with FC this time, cuz in my opinion they got they're values just about correct... I do believe OE need a drastic change, and I guess it's here now.

You can still OE
You can still use your knowledge of the game to improve yourself

I see this patch as a balancing and 'team orientated'
Now most professions will be more needed for they're buffs..
MP's (maybe traders who are patient enough to cast wrangles for the ultimate OE'd team with no penalty) hehe

But if you see it from a non-OE professions you will agree with me (I hope)
For NT's and MA's no more being kicked out of teams just because the uber-OE'd enforcer leader saw a lvl 100 soldier using a 200 nova... just an example...

just my 2 cents...

if you feel an urge to flame do it in a proper manner please

[________________Unas]

Originally posted by Lilith


Levels 120's to 130's...
190 missions ...
because even at my level it's 2.7 million xp ...

Tell me... at level 190, what missions will you do? missions QL300? oops, there is none... and oh my god; how much XP do you need at 190 to level?

Me thinks you'll start a twink once your OEing doesnt cut it. You are totally unable to cope with the xp needed to level at level 120. You take risks now? yeah maybe, you get the reward for it. But what about later? There will be no later, you are on a fast ride through levels, when you'll hit the wall you'll crawl, and you will not be able to cope with it.

Thanks for that display of omniscience, since you have so clearly mapped out my future, I guess I can quit right now.

Sometimes the hubris displayed by folks on this board makes me shake my head. Even if you're right, so what? If I hit 130 and get bored and want to start a new character on the treadmill, that's my decision and has no possible effect on you.

Wrapping yourself in some kind of cloak of "AO Purity" and sneering at those who have a different play style than yours doesn't make your arguments more effective, rather the reverse.

Unas

[_____________Crymcyn]

Originally posted by Vicktor
I have a lvl 60 trader who is OE'd. She has a set of armor that is all her lvl +- 10 levels (all within the legal 20% limit). Everything i own and wear is self buffed and bought with hard earned money. I dont sell my wrangles unless i take the time to get mochams and set up in a backyard and adverties. When people ask, i give freely. I make money selling glasses, clothes, information. My implants are all my QL only 2 or 3 are what i would call OE'd implants (and those are only lvl 80). I use a ql 130 vektor which helps me finish off my ql 80-90 missions.

What is it going to take to make you people who keep saying things like this understand that at lvl 60 you aren't meant to be running lvl 80-90 missions?

[________Puppetfinger]

Originally posted by Pherutt:
[QUOTE]
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I should have known better, buying a game from a socialist country. (etc......)
--snip--
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[ END QUOTE]

I don't consider Norway, my home-country, a socialist country. Please don't make assuptions about something you (seem to) know little about. We have a multi-party system, and some of those parties may have social-democratic tendencies, but Norway is NOT a socialist country.

(Sorry about going off topic on this post)

Edit: Just a small spelling error

[_____________Crymcyn]

Originally posted by Dark_Omen
But you know what i like rerolling and with the new rules in place a newbie will stand a snowballs chance in hell of ever leveling at a decent rate with the way mob hp's and ac are stacked

As someone who has NEVER OE'd (based on the proposed definition thereof) I can tell you you're wrong. I dont disagree with you that the mobs need to be scaled back at the same time as the OEers who caused them to be twinked in the first place, but as far as newbie's not being able to level at a decent rate? You can take a brand new character, with no assistance from anyone, completely solo, and knock out 40 levels in a week. (I've done it and I'm not some 16 year old kid with nothing better to do either. I'm a grown adult with a full time career.) Levelling for the n00b is NOT a problem.

[____________Phelisha]

Originally posted by Dr. Sent


Yeah implants ... DUH! ql90? I had ql91 implants in at level 45, without cheating in any way. You should be able to get at least 110's if not better at your level.

For someone that supports OEing, you sure don't know much about it.

this is becuase i have my warbot, and im happy with it.
im not dieing to OE my bot, im satisfyed right now until i can use a slayer droid.

[_____________Crymcyn]

Originally posted by Zyxlquith
scumbag, thank you. I appreciate every post you've put in on this.

That goes for me too. While I disagree with both Scumbag and Zyxlquith most vehemently on this topic, their posts, while contradictory to mine, have been posts that detail their view of the subject at hand, and they support their views intelligently. I could also ramble a list a mile long of people on both sides with nothing better to do than whine (neg.) or gloat (pos.); neither of which are productive.

[_____________Idoness]

Glad to hear what 14.2 will do. ( LOVE the IPR idea ^_^ ) First of

all, just want to say to those who's defening OE, I'm not saying

it's not right to OE. I support OE too but you have to put a limit

on this matter. Don't forget that this is a ROLE PLAYING GAME.

The battles and fights are fun sure, but you have to do a little

role playing. Those who's *****ing about not being able to OE

mostly because it'll stop them from skiping all the normal steps

and force them to actually put time into the game. If you don't

even want to get into game to level up, then why bother playing

a MMRPG? Just get whatever single player RPG out there and play

it by yourself. The idea of AO (and all other online RPGs) is to

interact with other players in the game world. If you just gona

have them buff you and run away, then why are you playing this

game at all? I do not have anything against these people, it's

just the fact that they are messing up the balance of the game

and forcing their way onto others that's upset me.

Anyway, here's my suggestion. instead of reducing the quailty of

the item for over 20% OEing, maybe you can try giving the

person that's OEing a 5 or 10 min warning time after their buff is

over and then drop the item back into their bag. This way, those

who is REALLY OEing ( like a lvl 7 carring a QL 100 gun ) will no

longer be able to do that unleast they are team up with

someone. And for those who's within 20% OEing, maybe you can

weaken the item by the % of OEing and balance it out.

Sorry if I'm a little off the topic before, and sorry for those who

read the whole thing. But mostly, I feel sorry for those who take

advanage of the game and then start ***** once changes are

make to stop these loop holes.

[_____________Crymcyn]

Originally posted by Maitrize
The point I have is that there is a level of overequipping that isn't just an exploit.

You can OE a shotgun with shotgun expertise. 0% wouldn't allow this.

If you have a nano for your profession that ups a particular stat (say for example rifle by 80, EXAMPLE...) you could use +80 to rifle to equip the gun but if there is the 0% allowance you could only use the rifle as long as the buff lasted then it would pop off. That's...

no fun. ;_;

Not true. You're not OE if you have the buff running.

Compare CURRENT skill to required skill. Even with a 0% threshold, you can still equip well beyond your level, given buffs and implants. You would just have to maintain the buffs and actually keep in the implants you use to put the weapon on.

[____________DarkOmen]

I agree with you on the lower leveling you dont start to run into problems until around lvl 60 --at least thats when i really see them becoming way out of porpotion to the player. I should have clariefied that --sorry
And i will say it again i am not against the oe patch i am against the insane hit points and ac on mobs and i dont belive funcom that there was a 60% reduction in mob ac in patch 13.6 because if there was i sure didnt notice any differance. Also fix the double hit shooting and the dead mobs still firing and the mobs shooting through walls--AND THEN DO the OE PATCH

[_____________Crymcyn]

Originally posted by Maitrize


But keeping track of it would be like doing bloodwork for diabetes. This is a GAME, not meant to be a chore.

That's why you can tell by looking at the buff icon at a glance whether or not it's close to running out. I have, and intend to continue, always maintained my buffs that I use to equip items. It's not difficult, in the least, to accomplish.

[_____________Crymcyn]

Originally posted by Nadir

You said yourself in your example that it was a bug that made you immortal. Funcom has stated that using a bug to acquire advantages is an exploit

Gonna do a little dictionary quoting:

The American Heritage Online Dictionary

bug - NOUN: 4a. A defect or difficulty, as in a system or design. b. Computer Science A defect in the code or routine of a program.

defect - NOUN: 1. The lack of something necessary or desirable for completion or perfection; a deficiency: a visual defect.
2. An imperfection that causes inadequacy or failure; a shortcoming.

Funcom says OE doesn't work as intended. Therefore the software does not perform as they desire. Therefore the software is defective. Therefore the software is bugged. Therefore the ability to OE to the extent that has caused Funcom to respond thusly is a bug. Therefore <see your quote Nadir>.

If you really want to play the semantics game, I'll happily play 'lawyer' with you.

[____________Darkbob8]

Ok i have been playing AO for about 6 weeks i didnt have any notion about OE till about 4 1/2 weeks ago, but thats besides the point my idea is you put min levels in like for a QL 200 item min level like 170 (i am still a n00b so dont know if thats good or not). this will prevent people at lvl 80 equiping ql 200 items, but wont ruin the game for the vetrans. I also LOVE the IPR idea becuase i am still playing my first char and when i realized hoe to put into skills and saw i had 1500 ip i went crazy cause i though i cost 1 ip for each skill so i put into everything. Then i realized after i accepted... Then to further $crew him up i put into many other skills i dont need as an agent, and now i can fix him.... for the most part. 1 more idea: if you are giving 90 ipr per profession tittle then give the ipr for all the titles before your current tittle( for instance you give 180 ipr to a profession title 2 and 260 to a title 3 ect).

-Darkbob8
34 Agent(RebelArmedFaction) RK1
32 Nano-Technician RK1