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Thread: Over-equipping - here we go....

  1. #101
    One thumb up !

    The other thumb asks what you will do about traders in PvP and NPC Traders in PvM, they will totally rule everything.

    Oh, and gimme that ice cream !
    Last edited by Greystar; Mar 11th, 2002 at 16:28:34.
    RK1 Guild Apocalypse

    Dillon "Duradas" Belote, Fixer
    Kiyoko "Selarana" Vallone, Meta Physicist
    Donald "Jorman" Dublin, Bureaucrat
    Burl "Gnorrg" Marinos, Enforcer
    Florence "Florania" Aronstein, Doctor
    ----
    RK3, Arnold "Gideon" Reineman, Enforcer

  2. #102
    Here's a thought: People will quit over this OE patch. People wont quit for not putting the patch in. Why not get some decent feedback, take some Devchats. Do some PROPER research insted of listening to the people whining about PvP with twinkers.
    Gontrokka 155 Enforcer
    When the going gets tough, the others start running!


    Captain Baxie Orbin 204 Trader
    - Baby, you look good enough to eat!

    Countezz 23 Adventurer
    - Who'd have thought a Steve Irwin wannabe could kick so much ass!

    "Baby, you look good enough to eat!"

  3. #103

    Arrow Need some changes ..

    I am in favor of fixing over-equiping. I think that the proposed changes are a step in the right direction, but I think some changes are still needed.

    - Need messages when a piece of equipment becomes reduced.
    - Need feedback on the paperdoll to show that a piece of equipment is reduced.
    - Make the reductions gradual, not steps, so that the reduction gradually reduces from 50% to 25% when going from 40% to 20% overequiped.
    - Apply the same rules to NCUs and other computer equipment.
    - Apply the same rules to implants, but based on the non-treatment requirement.

    I'd like to remind some people of the following in a response to previous posts:
    - It will still be possible to equip a weapon above your level without penalty.
    - Pet classes pets will continue to fight until the end of combat if debuffed.

    Oh, and remove social armor restrictions in 14.2 .. thanks!
    - Szentasha
    Leader of Unity of the Rose

    AOScripter 2.0 If you need a script, you need AOScripter!

    *** Remove Social Armor Restrictions Today !!!

  4. #104

    test

    this really sux, i m playing with an engi and it's gonna sux

    i ll have to play with a orange bot all the day :/

    what r we be usefull for ?, enforcer or MA of the same lvl will have monster life / ac and do more dmg

    but the MP, them r gonna be very promoted by this patch they ll r0x

  5. #105
    Lets talk about !!!EVENS!!!

    Lvl 74 Engineer with ql 110 implants in place and a lvl 84 bot (self buffed) I should be able to kill a lvl 84 mob since I can heal my bot right ? WRONG! I can not even touch a lvl 84 mob. They hit much harder and much faster than my bot does! Trimmed and with all my buffs he still gets beat down. I may win 1 of 5 fights but if he moves off my bot... I am already dead! There is no trick to stop this... I will die and it will be ugly... WELCOME TO RECLAIM, now serving all of RK1 after patch 14.2! Please wait there are to many players in reclaim at this time!

    Yes MOBS are way to powerful with out over equipping!

    What do you guys do to figure the stats for each mob in a mission ? How come they are so powerful ? Why are thier stats / AC maxxed so often....

    Fix them before you fix us!
    !!!Demagogue!!!
    !Clan Atrox Crat!

  6. #106
    Ok, heading home for today. Gonna have a good read here tomorrow I hope. Take care folks.

    Scorus (and others), your questions are noted. I hope to get answers to them all tomorrow.

    /me writes down "6 pages" on a note, and wonders how many pages he will have to read in the morning

  7. #107
    Trader will be the ever running buff machine in teams now. If we have to keep the wrangle running all the time we dont have time to do much other things. If the Engie should have stable control of his pet, the wrangle must run all the time. Shooting would be useless 'cause the wrangle have a negative effect on traders and lower our skills even more that the wrangle gives. We would be able to use a gun like 20-30% under our req's effective if we dont want to be hit with the 20% dmg reducement.

    I love u Funcom!!!



    Zyphoria
    General of Information
    Omni Shadow Ops

    Zyphoria 102 Trader
    Dogmatize 79 Engineer

  8. #108

    Thumbs down

    I do not like the idea of setting a limit to over equipping. over equipping is what made this game unpredictable, in made this game competitive, if you know a char can only equip to a certain extent all the fear of battle goes away which is stupid.

    This move also pretty much nerfs any character using a vektor shotgun as everyone has wrangles to get a higher QL on. It is very difficult to kill a group of mobs with over equipping at its current state, with the 20% rule it is nearly impossible to take down a group.

    It is important to have the over equipping advantage in battle other wise xp gain slows down because you can't fight the same type of MOBs anymore.

    If this 20% rule is TRULLY neccesary here's what you can do, add a second implants tab, that way people can make up for the loss from this rule or put on there other set of implants there that give to stats so they can keep armor working.

    "If it isn't broken don't fix it!"

  9. #109
    My main wonder is this...

    Will the OE patch affect just our equipment (i.e., clothing and weaps), or will it affect implants too (reduced effectiveness if we don't meet the treat reqs)? Because if it does... things are going to get ugly, and probably not from me, but from _everyone_.

  10. #110

    Well done!

    Originally posted by Kryos

    But the traders will be hurt a lot, with one strike is one their lines made totally worthless. Wranglers time has to be Increased to 30 min or more, before it wil be worth anything again.
    [/QUOTE]


    I disagree. I think Traders will now be welcomed in any team -- in fact they may be vital to any team. This wasn't the case before. As FC pointed out, you paid the trader and left him standing there. Now you -need- him in the mission if you want to use your mega-guns. I think this is how FC envisioned the Trader in the first place, really.


    And to FC, my hat's off to you guys for an excellent idea on the IPR points. The game is designed so that you -must- change your strategy as you progress upwards in levels. That's as it should be, but the fact that those early points were "wasted" was a sore spot for me. Now that you can use IPR points at appropriate points in your career, you can play the game as it was intended. Now, please, please don't let this be an empty promise! I haven't been excited about anything in the game for a long time. IPR and over-equpping rules are a very big thing that I've been looking for a long time to happen. As an agent, I'm also looking forward to seeing what you have planned for us as well!

    BTW, I assume that 1 IPR point will completely reset one skill, true? That way the 90 temporary points we are getting will reset the whole character. That wasn't clear in the article.

    Thanks a bunch!
    Katwon

  11. #111
    The patch is necessary and long over-due.
    Biomed

    Antimatter

    "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you."
    -Nietzsche

  12. #112
    Man, do you all have any idea of how many players are gonna quit? well me neither..but please, in my guild alone we are talking 4-5 veteran players and many more low lvls.....

    Sigh..don't do this to yourself FC, it is as easy as this: If you do it many will quit, but if not we can all help to correct some of the damage with exploits, like starting to report them and getting them banned...and perhaps even report about new bugs and exploits, but really...you are now changing something very fundamental about the game and it will cause you to lose alot of high lvl players.

    The ip reroll is great by the way

    Yours


    Lifedrain
    General of Security
    Omni Shadow Ops

  13. #113

    Post

    Posted .. earlier ..

    ----

    I don't get it?
    Why don't you like this so called OE ?

    I mean, everybody, every single one can do it, to be really good you need alot of experience, but thats like it is in the real world, not everyone is AS GOOD AS THE OTHER.

    I can, with alot of work, creds and time get myself equipped alot higher then most bother to, I say bother to cuz thats all it is, everyone of you can do it, you either is not good enough yet, don't want to ( Need to change your armor into cloths and such, like to wear uniform) or some other reason, or you play the game to chat and meet friends.

    I find it strange that all you say that you have no chance against high lvl veteran players...you have no chance in what? lvl'ing you can do anyway, just not as fast, PvP? why in the world should you expect to be as good as a trained pvp'er in the beginning? he/she has after all used alot of hours to get so good.

    To learn as the game moves along is all part of the game, if everyone should be just as good, whats the point then ? there MUST be a difference between a good pvp'er who knows the game and a guy playing his first character up high with lots of ip's used wrong. ( If you take away this, what point is there to really work hard? )

    As I started with, whats wrong? pinpoint it for me? and tell me why it is wrong? cuz this crap about: " I go killed by a trader at lvl 11 and I am lvl 17 enforcer " is no good, thats life.

    As and end statment: Those who use bugs in the game to get into UBER equipment is cheating, but thats got NOTHING to do with this so called EO.

    Yours

    Lifedrain
    General of Security
    Omni Shadow Ops

    Lifedrain 65 engineer
    Frozenblade 51 enforcer

    ----
    FINALLY !! good pvpers just "atrent lucky" and happand to win 30+ fights.. it takes a lot of work/money to get a char good!!
    AND there is a BIG difference between OE and exploits .. sure .. get the exploiters. justr DONT get this into the patch .. i did a 75% mission today .. solo .. and i had a HARD time doing this .. and my gear is about 30 QL above my lvl .. (im lvl 31) if i wasnt overequipped ,... i would have been toast in the first room .. oh joy? and if this now is a BIG problem .. why arent the buffs selfbuffs only?? if there IS a way to cast it on other ppls then yourself .. ppls WILL do it ..
    but hey .. funcom made nothing that we requested vbefore... why should they change?? *IF this patch comes through .. i know a LOT of pplz that are dropping out .. so .. FC are shooting themself in the foot .. again .. with a non OE gun ..
    ----
    As and end statment: Those who use bugs in the game to get into UBER equipment is cheating, but thats got NOTHING to do with this so called EO.
    -----
    just my thought .. get the exploiters .. not us OE pplz .. coz we invested VAST amount of time/cash into getting imps and buffs and gear .. there will allways be players that is better then others .. pplz who likes to crunch the numbers and test IF its possible to get that highlvl gun equuipped.

    Yours truly ...

  14. #114
    Thegrimblade
    Guest

    Overequiping vs. game balance

    I believe this affects people far more than they might realize.

    My own chars are by no means super over-equiped. However they do depend a great deal on buffs such as headcracker or brutal thug in order to equip their hammers and enlarge and cyclops and pillows to equip armors.
    To suppliment all of these buffs I also use a series of implants (thank god for Nano Nanny! Without it plant construction would be even MORE confusing than it is).
    Even over equiped as they are they are FAR from Uber, they are decent. Period, JUST decent, that's it. They don't PvP, and not because of equipage issues but simply because my own skills, the controller of the char, in that area are not well suited for it. So I am pretty much just a PvM player, and one who loves missions.

    And In this lies my question AND my issue. Balance.
    We are told time and again by Funcom that we should not be able to solo Reds, especially deep reds and that oranges should be VERY, VERY tough. Then why so are missions so over balanced on the side of the monsters?
    A 50% mission at mid, mid range can often be filled with yellow - yellow/orange Mobs. Yellows should be equivilant to our own level. That should be a decent battle and, if not over-equiped it often is. Even being over-equiped some yellows are still going to be tough given your level and your prof. .
    But what is the reward for that mission? A piece of armor or weapon YOUR OWN level. Useless :-( Absolutely useless.

    50% missions are nearly worthless other than the chance to get a token and the xp. The armor, wep or crystal you receive as a reward you generaly can equip/upload without ANY buffs at all. NADA. :-( Junk :-(

    The items you pull off the dead Mobs as loot are LOWER than your level.

    This is nothing new. This is something people have been saying for some time.

    If we are NOT to take on reds then why are they even in the mission setting? These are supposed to be solo missions, and by Funcom's definition Reds are un-soloable. They are supposed to be impossible to solo. Yet they have the loot you need.

    There is also a good chance you will get a solid red missin at 75% difficulty, at the very least it is all orange with maybe a few yellow/oranges thrown in. But generally there will even be a few deep reds in that mission as well. The loot from 75% missions is generaly stuff you can wear with a buff (often self buff) depending on level and prof. .

    So where is the balance?

    Alot of us see over-equiping as purely a neccesity. As the only way to survive missions long enough to clear them, receive the loot AND a token. Many experienced players have chars that can blitz missions. And that is a skill. It takes practice and a lot of know-how, but should they have to?

    You can't get the items you need from soloing Mobs in the wild. Essentialy we have been forced to get the equipment we need from missions we are not supposed to be able to solo.

    I know that some of this is a social issue with Funcom. Soloing missions is anti-social. In order to get ahead we often have to rely on other people; High level guild mates for buffs and for hand-me-downs, near level friends, strangers and guild mates for teaming up on SOLO missions and generaly just teaming for xp.

    This over-equiping patch, though, addresses the social side of pvp, the wolf-pack. That which is within Man's nature to gang-up on others, to prey on the weak and to exploit whatever they can within their environment in order to dominate. In new England we call the explotation part Yankee ingenuity. AO has created alot of Yankees :-) People are damn ingenious in this tremendously complicated environment with all its layers of stat increasing items/buffs/plants.

    It is unlikely there will be a way to force people to have the stereo-typical western shootout. They were unable to do it in UO, where every char ends up with near identical stats, they won't be able to do it here.

    I'm all in favor of reducing the complexity required to play this game, with the huge amount of creds you have oput out every so often JUST to stay decent and maintain your edge, but not if it means having to have a full team to do 60% missions, let alone 75%.
    You are just adding team missions, that should be fantastic. Better loot promised, the understanding that you need a TEAM in order to do the mission, all around ok. But you have promised to make the mobs tougher, more numerous and have a big boss at the end, AND you are reducing the value of our weps and armor when we ALREADY need a team to do SOLO missions :-( .Will this mean that a 50% team mission needs the groups lowest level member to get it, and STILL the group might have a nearly impossible mission?

    There is the wolf-pack within our nature. We see it in war, we see it in children and we see it in business. But there is also the lone-wolf aspect to us as well. WE are able to be both, there are times when we NEED to be alone. Don't take away this while trying to tame us, please.

    It is almost impossible to completely tame the wolf, and even the bovine needs it's horns clipped and it's balls cut in order to be rendered somewhat safe. Everything should have a little wild left in it.

  15. #115

    dont panic

    CZ

    I am not sure a lot of people really understand how either IP re-allocation is working or how the Over equiping is working.

    IT would help if we had some examples like this

    Ok so my skill is at 100 say plus my implants give me an extra 20 plus I can buff at plus 20 anyone understand at what value my skill is OE ?

    IF we could see how it works it would help. Plus the IP reset he did not say if the reset of skills was just for this patch or if you will able to do it in future with skills.

  16. #116
    Originally posted by Morgoth
    Man, do you all have any idea of how many players are gonna quit? well me neither..but please, in my guild alone we are talking 4-5 veteran players and many more low lvls.....

    Sigh..don't do this to yourself FC, it is as easy as this: If you do it many will quit, but if not we can all help to correct some of the damage with exploits, like starting to report them and getting them banned...and perhaps even report about new bugs and exploits, but really...you are now changing something very fundamental about the game and it will cause you to lose alot of high lvl players.

    The ip reroll is great by the way

    Yours


    Lifedrain
    General of Security
    Omni Shadow Ops
    People are going to give up a chance to play around with their IP's and just outright quit? Pretty unimaginable.

    The quitting argument is pretty weak, people quit all the time. This patch is long overdue, shame that implants and NCU's are being left alone.

  17. #117
    The amount of players that would quit due to OE being removed is going to be very small.

    Any player that leaves because of it will just go play games like Diablo where they can cheat and feel uber as much as they like.
    Biomed

    Antimatter

    "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you."
    -Nietzsche

  18. #118
    Interesting changes but I have some reccommendations.


    1. Allow pet classes a 30% variance instead. This would allow us to get a decent pet. The 20% restriction is too much.

    2. Cut mob hit points in half after level 50. They become exponentially tougher as you level up. Engineer bots after level 75 have a tough time against mobs, even with healing.

    3. Make self casting expertise nanos last 1 hour. Add 50% to the duration of Masteries, Infuses and Mochams.

    more to come....

  19. #119

    I have questions about IP reset though

    How is it giving back points?

    I am an old adventurer and purchased multi-ranged at a much higher rate than it currently cost these days.

    If I reclaim multi-ranged do I get the actual points spent or only the points it would take get the current skill level at the current cost?

    This of course leads into ip rings. It sounds like that those extra points would be retained either way so that is decent.

    So if I reclaim multi-ranged will I forever have lower ip than other players?

  20. #120

    Cool Great...!

    This sounds pretty decent stuff, though I hope it stays on test for quite a while before going live. I'll look forward to testing it (though my NT is only lvl 10 at the moment).

    Pet professions are 'uber' at the moment, I've seem an MP my level soloing reds - I'm and Enforcer, and anything tougher than a light orange is worrisome to me, though I'm not overequipped as such (self-buff only). So this should just bring them closer to the level of the rest of us.

    I'd like to see implants and NCU affected in some way too, but that is probably harder to do, implants would really have to ignore the 'treatment' requirement or allow for much more leeway. NCU should be less troublesome though.

    I look hope some MOB balancing takes place aswell, but I reckon they are fairly close to being just right (knock about 5% off their HP would make it JUST right IMHO).

    The fixes to concealement should help agents a lot, look forward to hearing what stuff you have planed for adventurers, NTs and the like.

    And, not OE related, but, do review weapons and damage, that in itself would help many classes. And can the Rage line of nanos do what it say it does please (after 13.8 broke it)? Or correct the text...

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