Over-equipping - here we go....

[________________Crin]

I’ve read a good part of this thread and have taken some notes. Here are my comments on some of the points brought up here

• Funcom is just giving in to the “lazy” players
  The truly lazy player expects to win every fight because a week and a half ago they:
  
  1. Read a couple of web sites
  2. Got buffs from friends or players paid with eBay credits
  3. Stepped implants to raise skill
  4. Over equiped weapons and armor
  
  
  The over equipping changed will reward the players who can adapt to every battle situation and truly know how to play their profession. Profession will become more distinct because base skill will have a greater influence on how much a character can over equip weapons.
  
• OE nerf is removing the advantage of knowledgeable players
  This is sort of a repeat of the previous point, but it is important. The OE nerf does the exact opposite. Players who know how to play their characters the best will STILL be the best. The player who wants to get by only because of their equipment and not because of their tactics are the ones who will suffer. In the current system, strategy and tactics are only of secondary importance. That is why you can find level 100 characters who haven’t got a clue how to play the game once the fighting starts.
  
• Players not being able to get aggro off of Docs
  Funcom did just introduce Da Taunter right. I don’t see this as being a big deal. Doctors and groups that know how to manage aggro will do just find. The only ones hurt will be the players that have no clue how to do it. Once again the knowledgeable players will be better off
  
• Pets not responding after skills not met
  This is a bad idea. The pet’s effectiveness should be reduced if the requirements aren’t met, but they should still work. In addition to it being unfair to pet users, I guarantee that you will introduce a ton of bugs if you continue with the planned implementation.
  
• Traders buffs not needed
  You can still over equip by 20 percent with no problems. I suggest that the people complaining actually check their characters to how it will affect them first. For my character it looks like this:
  
  Level: 108 Fixer
  MG/SMG: 630(Self buffed) + 20% = 756
  Burst: 521(Self buffed) + 20% = 625
  
  QL 175 Mausser Particle Streamer
  MG/SMG: 712
  Burst: 535
  
  QL 143 Mausser Chemical Streamer
  (My current weapon. I know the requirements are higher than a QL 175 gun but that is a Fixer gripe)
  MG/SMG: 759
  Burst: 570
  
  I’ll still need the Trader buffs after the nerf. On a side note the OE nerf would prevent me from using my current weapon, but just barely. The 20% restriction is not very harsh. My Fixer can use a QL 175 gun at level 108 and the Fixer’s weapon buffs suck. An agent could do much better.
  
• Trader debuffs are too powerful
  I have to agree with this, but I’ll wait and see. I do like that debuffs will have a use now. It will give meaning to putting IP points into a skill even if you can already wield a QL 200 weapon. I don’t like the stepping of the debuff penalties. After 20% they should continuously increase. That way every point you have in a skill and every buff counts.
  
• Trader wrangles too short in duration
  I see them as a once per fight kind of nano. It rewards planning and skill. If you scout ahead and know that the next fight will be tough then you cast it. On the other hand, if you are only clearing out some green trash, then it is not worth it.
  
• Mobs too difficult
  Umm…yea they are. All I can say is that they had better respond to debuffs just like the players do.
  
• Engineers whining
  You have been spoiled. Now it is time for you to join the rest of us doing 50% missions
  
• People threatening to quit over OE changes
  Please do. It would be the best thing to happen to AO if the 100 people who are upset over the changes quit and left the 1000s (read that as many many more than you) of the rest of us to play without your whining. I would suspect that it is these same people who have used all the exploits and has wasted Funcom’s time to deal with them. I for one encourage you to go.
  
  Oh btw, have you thought this one through. Are you going to play Everwait now? Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha.
  If you thought the OE nerf was bad in AO how about DAoC? Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

Another thing that players aren’t picking up on is that it was stated in the article that Funcom couldn’t put better loot into the game because they feared that it would make the over equippers too powerful. If I understand the article correctly, that means that with the OE changes we could end up with better more diverse equipment. No one could argue against that.

[_________Anisotropic]

Originally posted by Akasha


Anti encouraged the patch, i'd honestly like to know why. I'm tired of listening to the half assed newbies praising it so much, when they are just happy that everybody else will be down to their lvl...yes, some people play for more than an hour a day, and they do what it takes to get better...So anti, explain, as it'll be nice to hear from somebody w/ valid opinions

i don't really like the patch, I think "something"needs to be fixed. but i feel that Bringing everyone down to the lowest demonitor is not the way to do it,
on my first post i wasn't really sure what i thought.
now ii'm in agreement with you,, and halbundy, and maitrize, and a few others.
they are Punishing those that have succeeded in this game, and bringing them down to a point to make it "fair" for lazy people to be able to kill em easier... I think it's Unfair to the people that have gone out of their way to make themselves "uber". you do the extra work. you get the extra reward. that is how it should be

i do have a morbid curiosity as to what will happen if they release thsi, but that doesn't mean i'm for the patch, sorry for the confusion.

Anisotropic,

[_________________Zuh]

Around 250 new posts to read at the moment.


50 000 tomorow, Cz is going to die : P.




Again, why not simply make progressive malus when you overequip ??????

This is sooo simple...

[_____________Utrilla]

Y is it that only me and Gokundan(srry if name spelt wrong my spelling is quite attrotious anyway) can see the easy way out the simple and yet effective way it completely solves the prob as far as i can see no massise twinks, u still keep the novalty of OE and yet it is more balenced....

[_____________Gokudan]

Originally posted by Qantaqa
I checked my chars (ranging from 35-90) and thinking they were massivelly OE I was assuming a lot of downtuning of my chars, but it aint true, 20% is a MASSIVE amount in rock hard skill points, and none of my 35+ chars has that on any of it's skill requirements.

I suggest you all check first and make sure you realize how much you have to boost your char to get to that +20% on your skills.

FUNCOM, this is a GREAT solution to low level supertwinking and I praise you for it. Now put it on test as soon as possible and allow people to copy their chars there, so they stop being so incredibly afraid and see how it really affects their char and the game.

GO FUNCOM!!!

First, people can still uber-equip with implants, read the earlier stuff, it isn't a valid enough solution, especially when us traders need to deprive/ransack to get their best weapons, our wrangles become alot of S%$T (unless they don't cap the damage as much).

They haven't thought it through, they just let classes slide without thinking

[__________Subject IV]

Btw, Funcom, I quit the game once because my engineer sucked.

Then you improved our robots. So I came back to give it a try and really liked the changes.

Now you make our robot casting weak and basically suck again.

There is a pattern here. Can you guess what my reaction will be?

[_____________Gokudan]

Originally posted by Zuh
Around 250 new posts to read at the moment.


50 000 tomorow, Cz is going to die : P.




Again, why not simply make progressive malus when you overequip ??????

This is sooo simple...

lol, just each to their own, Zuh

your point is valid but it would be easier to integrate lvl or title caps on weapons

[_____________Gokudan]

Originally posted by Zuh
Around 250 new posts to read at the moment.


50 000 tomorow, Cz is going to die : P.




Again, why not simply make progressive malus when you overequip ??????

This is sooo simple...

erm, lol, over 450 posts ???
22 pages ?????
yes, I think I will flame more tomorrow :P

[xbmspec]

Hrmm. What happens when a Trader plunder's your skills into the negitives? eh? than what?

Low level super twinked Traders do it all the time!

[_____________Gokudan]

Originally posted by Gokudan


First, people can still uber-equip with implants, read the earlier stuff, it isn't a valid enough solution, especially when us traders need to deprive/ransack to get their best weapons, our wrangles become alot of S%$T (unless they don't cap the damage as much).

They haven't thought it through, they just let classes slide without thinking

also, think about it, wouldn't this solve OE on implants at the same time

[_____________Gokudan]

Originally posted by [CrispyChicken]
Hrmm. What happens when a Trader plunder's your skills into the negitives? eh? than what?

Low level super twinked Traders do it all the time!

yep along with drains and incompetence nanos the trader at lvl 38 (like me) can kill around 175 points of nano skills and weapon skills

[_____________Gokudan]

aww, now I can't leave, am enjoying this flaming too much

[KillerFiend]

First I guess a little about myself and my character. I play a lvl80 Martial Artist, Omni sided on Rubi-Ka 1. I'm a somewhat casual player, probably about 5 hrs /week on average.

Now, the message I'm receiving from this proposed change is: if you want to use the rules as we set them up, and do your best to be your best, we wish to not allow this. Please read the short story Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut. In a society (as AO is), people with greater ability and time investment will always acheive higher/do more than those that are either just plain bad at the game, or don't spend hours upon hours playing. I would classify myself into the later category. I don't spend hours and hours playing. And you know what? When I see people in awesome gear at any level, I applaud them! Kudos to them! Does that affect my lvl80 MA's ability to do my missions and hunt my areas and have fun in the game? No sir, it certainly does not. For me, however, the search for better and "cooler" gear is the #1 reason I play AO. All the rest of the activities in the game, for me, is just leading to finding that next piece of gear, that next MA attack, or getting that next token board. Am I to be punished becuase I bothered to sit at the mission terminal until I got a concrete pillow so I can equip higher level omni pol armor? This is just silly. The best thing about AO is the ability to "over equip." Incidentally, I find this to be a misnomer. Using the rules of the game to obtain the best gear possible is just called playing your best. To me, over equipping would be exploiting a bug, or a clearly broken aspect of the game (such as the infinite treatment bug) to get into equipment.

If this patch goes through, there is nothing left for me in AO and I will be forced to speak in the only way that companies listen: with my pocketbook. I will cancel my account and use my time for something else, where I won't be punished for trying my best.

Pardon the melodrama here, but truly the game for me is all about the fun of trying to get into the best possible gear. Example: at my current level I have 255 "natural" agility. In trying to figure out the best primus decus armor coat (my favorite back slot armor item) I have to think hard about what all i can do to get into the best one possible. On the decus coats, agility is the higher of the two requirements, the other requirement, strength, is easy for me since I pump str each level also. With my 255, I can get a boost, +12, I can get feline grace from an agent for another +25, and then implant myself with say, lvl70 implants, for about another +50 or so agility. My total is about 342 or so, give or take based on implants. Now, since I can't really spare the implant space for agility at all times, my "normal" everyday agility is just the 274 from the boost. Agents aren't always on hand for feline grace, and stats in implants is usually not the most effective cluster to have in. Suppose i find a decus coat that has my exact max of 342 requirement (don't know this for sure, but whatever), will put me just at being "overquipped". Since when is one buff and some implants overquipping? That's just silly. It's very easy for a lvl80 to find an agent to cast feline grace (very easy to cast), and very easy to find the money for three simple implants. Why is this considered overquipping? ANY lvl80 character could do the same. The people who whine about my coat must not know how to play the game! Another slightly longer example, so I'll shorten it a bit, is with armor. In my case I have chosen to stay with omni pol, str/sta based, as I spend IP on these each level, and there are good buffs in this line to help me equip them. I can get +12 from a boost, +20 from a doc casting Iron Circle, +17 more from an enforcer casting essence of cyclops, +16 more from concrete pillows, and again about +50 from lvl70 implants. One buff myself, two that are *easy* to get, just drop by BB in ent anytime and tip someone for them (again, things accessible to any player willing to bother), and a relatively common item (can't afford to buy it? Spend the time at the mission term and get one yourself, or spend that time getting money, and buy one). This lets me get into gear *way* over the 20% line........how are a couple buffs and some easy implants overequipping? Any player could accomplish this, it doesn't take "guild mates and 'friends for hire'" as mentioned Gaute Godager's message. It requires time and effort, as all thing in AO do. Time and effort is what should be rewarded, not whining by newbies and just plain stupid people unable to play the game. If you can't figure out how to get two nanos cast on you and how to get one item (x2), then you're beyond the help of some silly over-equipping patch. These people will always just plain be worse at AO. So will the people who haven't figured out that certain weapons at any QL are just plain worse than others. There's a reason you see so many enforcers using dual riders or a beam. Should funcom nerf beams becasue some newb is pissed he doesn't have one? No! They shoudl tell the newb to learn from his mistakes, and start thinking about how he can buff his 2hb. The list goes on and on.

In summation: players who either have greater skill, or spend more time playing, will always be better than those who have not, or do not. To attempt to "level the playing field" to make up for the shortcomings of others is a slipperly slope at best, and a tragic end to a great game at worst. Please read harrison bergeron, please understand that going down to the lowest common denominator is a recipie for disaster and please don't end up putting this patch into the game. I've really enjoyed the last 8 days and 10 hours of /played. I hope that you receive enough feedback (this included) to cause you to rethink your error.

P.S. If I was a trader, I'd have a 10x as long explination of why this new rule would completely devalue my class. Under the current system traders can make a ton of money and are very sought after for +132 wrangles. Under the proposed system, wrangles become useless. It is totally rediculous to think that people are actually going to try and maintain a wrangle on at all times, just plain silly.

Thanks for the last couple of months, it was fun while it lasted.

//edit: typos 'n' such

[Kuro]

Originally posted by [CrispyChicken]
Hrmm. What happens when a Trader plunder's your skills into the negitives? eh? than what?

Low level super twinked Traders do it all the time!

Guess that NCU belts will have to be accounted for in the OE rules. Can't have a super twinked anything without the NCUs. And that's where overequipping begins: the belts.

[______________Akasha]

To Crin

I won't quote your long msg just because I don't want to.

For you to *assume* those that twink buy money from ebay and got all their info off of a website is ignorant.

I'm a lvl 141 agent. If i chose to I could very easily make a couple million credits in an hour. Hell, at lvl 112, I made about 100 mill within a week. No exploiting, just using the 'broken' sneak. So by your statements, I think it is fair to *assume* you are a newbie still.

For your argument that there is a 1:10 ratio of people that are against:for the OE patch, you are sadly mistaken. sure it's a 1:10 posting, but ask in game. Go to tir grid, or backyard 5 where you'll find people over lvl 30-50. Go to Home in broken shores. Find people who understand the game. And ask. Ask people who have been playing for at least 6 months and have chars over lvl 100. and i'm sure you'll find that there are MORE against the patch.

Why did i choose these parameters? Because these people have obviously endured FC's worst. We've been through the bs of nerf after nerf after nerf. We didn't just start a few months ago and expect for all those who have been playing and PAYING for all this time to be dumbed down to the ignorant state of newbie-ville. We already went through that. We don't want to do this again. Does it suck to be a newbie? Yes. But with time, it goes away. personally, i help countless of those i see helping others (donating money, etc) but if these are the kinds of players (read: you) that AO is drawing, fuq it.

Spread your rumors.

Thrive on your ignorance.

If FC let's you lvl, then one day, you'll realize how idiotic your post is.

[_____________Skyxxis]

Ok I will try to voice my Opinion and that of my Two guilds. After much talking we feel there are major problems with this patch but not altogether.

#1.) Eng. Making pets non responsive is NOT good. Making skills required to cast it even with Mochams and wrangles probably better solution. Eng with high lvl bots are well sought after. Higher casting costs will lower the chances of lower lvl OE people.

#2.) The agents FP will become non exhistant since it drains the current skills and has the -2000 in nano init. 12 seconds for casting a basic nano isnt enough of a headache? Invis will be nice might bring my agent back out.

#3.) MPs wont really be hurt cept for OE armor like that nano armor i love to wear on my 55 MP man the QL 90 helps alot.

#4.) Crats NO WAY!! Bad enough my crat been idle for months. Bots are seriously timmed. I do like the extended time i have noticed but our bots really arent that good and trimmers? Waste of IP in 20 minutes new bot Our bots need wepons.

#5.) I have a trader and he will be way over powered in PvP if i debuff and stack them they are useless. Well alot more than now at least. NTs never did any good Vs traders unless the had Guns.

Ok I amke these statements because:
I have 7 chars now my first 3 are wasted and one is lvl 90. I learned over the course of time how to make more effective chars. No i dont like to be beat in PvP to a lvl 11 or a lvl 30 Enf in Elite when im lvl 45 with pets but it does make me look at why and how I used my IP and implants. I spend more time calculateing buffs needed ncu and all other abilities to get my next Pet/Gun/Armor everything mucho calculato!!

I have never used one exploit to get anything on but even time at work doing nothing i spend talking with my Real Life Boss about AO and we figure out how to Be as Uber as possible. But there is always someone out there whos better.

I can say i know of about 30+ people that all have DAoC accounts like me and will be willing to hit the "Cancel" button and head there till SB or Star Wars online is released.

There is much to beconsidered in this patch. And i dont use ebay i earn all my goods. Heck i saw a Omni-Pol recruit suit QL 30 going for 5 mil i mean get real. QL 200 stigma 15 Mil? I got mine for 2 mil and i complained but i read on the poison patch long before the skyrocket.

And with my trader i wont follow a team just to be a buffing machine no way!! I like soloing 75%-90% missions makes it more challenging.

Skyxxis President of LoD

LoD4Life and if you die by us and cry you gonna quite we will help you find the cancel button.

Sky-55 MP
Grey-69 Crat
Flu-45 NT
Thezul-90 Agent
Sufx-29 Sol
Ty-15 Trader
Val-Upcomming Doc in waiting

PvP rocks dont nerf it to much this game is about the war and bad enough we cant find More of the enemy to kill.

We say EXPAND THE POL ZONES make more its war ya know!!!

[___________Damion666]

Originally posted by MSag
This article doesnt mention debuffs. So are debuffs included into the formula used to determine how much overequipped one are? If they are not I say thumbs up, if they are, well then its thumbs down from me.

lol.... looks like people are going to see what its like for nts now... hehehehehe... i think im gonna go start work on a trader now... their gonna own.

[__________ethanmonat]

I just really have to ask, why? Do you see people in PvP bemoaning how much their opponent was overequiped, or berating themselves for being not overequiped enough? Why, they blame themselves for not being overequiped enough There are very few game players who want to see overequiping leave the game as a whole. I see mostly Funcom being the driving force behind getting rid of overequiping, because it makes the game "too easy". It's too "fast" to level if you are overequiped, and everyone knows if you level too fast or get to too high a level quickly, you will lose interest in the game and go play EQ or something. I have some simple questions for the staff at Funcom, however. When the 14.2 "patch" comes into play, will the NPC monsters be reduced to regualr player attributes? I mean, when I go into a mission with a Ql30 reward and fight level 20 monster, will they have the hitpoints of a level 30 player, as should be, or will they still have 3K hitpoints? Will their minimum damage still be in the 50s, or will it be more like what it should be, 20? I'd just liek to point out, if my level 79 soldier suddenly can't use a QL120 nova flow and Ql100 armor, then how is he going to kill even a green monster in a single player mission, when the monsters he is facing have over 10K hitpoints and I only have 2K? The 14.2 "patch" seems to be an introduction to havoc in the game. I've not heard a single word from the development team of game director about those issues being addressed. Will the game turn from being a fast-paced action game to something with the boggy slowness of everquest, where it takes 3 days with a full group of people to get level 25? I think I'll go back to playing FPSs online. Hmm... Planetside, sounds interesting...

[_____________Gokudan]

Originally posted by Don Fiendelioni
First I guess a little about myself and my character. I play a lvl80 Martial Artist, Omni sided on Rubi-Ka 1. I'm a somewhat casual player, probably about 5 hrs /week on average.

Now, the message I'm receiving from this proposed change is: if you want to use the rules as we set them up, and do your best to be your best, we wish to not allow this. Please read the short story Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut. In a society (as AO is), people with greater ability and time investment will always acheive higher/do more than those that are either just plain bad at the game, or don't spend hours upon hours playing. I would classify myself into the later category. I don't spend hours and hours playing. And you know what? When I see people in awesome gear at any level, I applaud them! Kudos to them! Does that affect my lvl80 MA's ability to do my missions and hunt my areas and have fun in the game? No sir, it certainly does not. For me, however, the search for better and "cooler" gear is the #1 reason I play AO. All the rest of the activities in the game, for me, is just leading to finding that next piece of gear, that next MA attack, or getting that next token board. Am I to be punished becuase I bothered to sit at the mission terminal until I got a concrete pillow so I can equip higher level omni pol armor? This is just silly. The best thing about AO is the ability to "over equip." Incidentally, I find this to be a misnomer. Using the rules of the game to obtain the best gear possible is just called playing your best. To me, over equipping would be exploiting a bug, or a clearly broken aspect of the game (such as the infinite treatment bug) to get into equipment.

If this patch goes through, there is nothing left for me in AO and I will be forced to speak in the only way that companies listen: with my pocketbook. I will cancel my account and use my time for something else, where I won't be punished for trying my best.

Pardon the melodrama here, but truly the game for me is all about the fun of trying to get into the best possible gear. Example: at my current level I have 255 "natural" agility. In trying to figure out the best primus decus armor coat (my favorite back slot armor item) I have to think hard about what all i can do to get into the best one possible. On the decus coats, agility is the higher of the two requirements, the other requirement, strength, is easy for me since I pump str each level also. With my 255, I can get a boost, +12, I can get feline grace from an agent for another +25, and then implant myself with say, lvl70 implants, for about another +50 or so agility. My total is about 342 or so, give or take based on implants. Now, since I can't really spare the implant space for agility at all times, my "normal" everyday agility is just the 274 from the boost. Agents aren't always on hand for feline grace, and stats in implants is usually not the most effective cluster to have in. Suppose i find a decus coat that has my exact max of 342 requirement (don't know this for sure, but whatever), will put me just at being "overquipped". Since when is one buff and some implants overquipping? That's just silly. It's very easy for a lvl80 to find an agent to cast feline grace (very easy to cast), and very easy to find the money for three simple implants. Why is this considered overquipping? ANY lvl80 character could do the same. The people who whine about my coat must not know how to play the game! Another slightly longer example, so I'll shorten it a bit, is with armor. In my case I have chosen to stay with omni pol, str/sta based, as I spend IP on these each level, and there are good buffs in this line to help me equip them. I can get +12 from a boost, +20 from a doc casting Iron Circle, +17 more from an enforcer casting essence of cyclops, +16 more from concrete pillows, and again about +50 from lvl70 implants. One buff myself, two that are *easy* to get, just drop by BB in ent anytime and tip someone for them (again, things accessible to any player willing to bother), and a relatively common item (can't afford to buy it? Spend the time at the mission term and get one yourself, or spend that time getting money, and buy one). This lets me get into gear *way* over the 20% line........how are a couple buffs and some easy implants overequipping? Any player could accomplish this, it doesn't take "guild mates and 'friends for hire'" as mentioned Gaute Godager's message. It requires time and effort, as all thing in AO do. Time and effort is what should be rewarded, not whining by newbies and just plain stupid people unable to play the game. If you can't figure out how to get two nanos cast on you and how to get one item (x2), then you're beyond the help of some silly over-equipping patch. These people will always just plain be worse at AO. So will the people who haven't figured out that certain weapons at any QL are just plain worse than others. There's a reason you see so many enforcers using dual riders or a beam. Should funcom nerf beams becasue some newb is pissed he doesn't have one? No! They shoudl tell the newb to learn from his mistakes, and start thinking about how he can buff his 2hb. The list goes on and on.

In summation: players who either have greater skill, or spend more time playing, will always be better than those who have not, or do not. To attempt to "level the playing field" to make up for the shortcomings of others is a slipperly slope at best, and a tragic end to a great game at worst. Please read harrison bergeron, please understand that going down to the lowest common denominator is a recipie for disaster and plase don't end up putting this patch into the game. I've really enjoyed the last 8 days and 10 hours of /played. I hope that you receive enough feedback (this included) to cause you to rethink your error.

P.S. If I was a trader, I'd have a 10x as long explination of why this new rule would completely devalue my class. Under the current system traders can make a ton of money doing +132 wrangles. Under the proposed system, wrangles become useless. It is totally rediculous to think that people are actually going to try and maintain a wrangle on at all times, just plain silly.

Thanks for the last couple of months, it was fun while it lasted.

Well said, I keep a backpack with different implants in so I can self-buff myself into my equipment, yet this means me wearing one set of implants that may leave me at as much of a disadvantage because my skill in something else is dropped

[Simpleton]

ok lets take a lvl 58 enf with a ql 117 hammer all self buffed , seeing as enfs soul purpose is doing much more damage then anyone else and taking it as well, its bull what this patch will do, my hammer crits for 1.1k try 25% thats over 250 pts lower, thats insanely unfair, especially with the recharge rate, and the sad part is im going to get nerf damage when i only used self buffs..., i mean either A.make this patch not count SElf buffs as overequipping as well as imps, or B. make the patch only effect in pvp, and take away those ****** debuffs from traders ,its insanely unfair, i have 270 in nano skills i dont bother fighting traders because its a joke , they get my nano skills to 100, then beat the **** out of me, what i really dont need now is weapon dmg reduced...